HL Deb 18 July 1910 vol 6 cc215-24

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Saye and Sele.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Prohibition of export of unfit horses; appointment of veterinary surgeons to examine; expense to be borne by owners.

1. It shall not be lawful, except in such cases as may be prescribed by order of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, to ship or attempt to ship any horse in any vessel from any port in Great Britain to any place outside Great Britain, unless immediately before shipment the horse has been examined by a veterinary surgeon appointed by the Board for that purpose, and has been certified in writing by him to be capable of being so conveyed without cruelty both during the intended voyage and after being disembarked. The owner of the horse shall pay to such veterinary surgeon in respect of such examination such fees as may be fixed by the Board, and such certificate shall be delivered at the time of shipment to the master of the vessel on which the animal is shipped, who shall, on demand, produce the same to any constable or any inspector or other officer of the Board or the local authority and allow such person to take a copy of, or extract from, the certificate:

Provided that before any such order is made the draft thereof shall be laid before each House of Parliament, for not less than thirty days on which such House is sitting, and if either of such Houses before the expiration of such thirty days presents an address to His Majesty against the draft or any part thereof no further proceedings shall be taken thereon without prejudice to the making of any new draft order.

THE EARL OF DERBY moved to insert after "except," in the first line of the clause, the words "as in this Act provided and." The noble Earl said: This is to lead up to the other Amendments which I propose to introduce, and which I understand the noble Lord in charge of the Bill and the Minister for Agriculture are prepared to accept.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 5, after ("except") insert ("as in "this Act provided and").—(The Earl of Derby.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (EARL CARRINGTON)

I move to leave out "place" ["from any port in Great Britain to any place outside Great Britain"] and to substitute the word "port." This is merely a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 8, leave out ("place") and insert ("port").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF DERBY

I move to leave out the second "Great Britain," and to substitute the words "the British Islands." I see that a similar Amendment stands in the name of the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture, so that I presume it is accepted.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 8, leave out the second ("Great" "Britain") and insert ("the British islands").(The Earl of Derby.)

Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL OF DERBY

I have an Amendment on the Paper to leave out "immediately" ["unless immediately before shipment the horse has been examined by a veterinary surgeon"] and to insert the words "within forty-eight hours." I thought the word "immediately" rather too indefinite, but the noble Earl has informed me that my Amendment would, perhaps, give an opportunity for substitution. That is a thing I am most anxious to avoid, and therefore I shall not move this Amendment.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move to leave out "surgeon" ["unless immediately before shipment the horse has been examined by a veterinary surgeon appointed by the Board for that purpose" and to substitute "inspector." It is desirable that the officer employed by the Board should be an inspector, so as to have the powers vested in inspectors—the powers of entry and detention. I also propose to leave out the words "that purpose," and to insert "the purpose of conducting examinations under this Act."

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 10, leave out ("surgeon") and insert ("inspector") and leave out ("that purpose") and insert ("the purpose of conducting examinations "under this Act").—(Earl Carrington.)

THE EARL OF MAYO

I presume that the inspector would be a qualified veterinary surgeon?

EARL CARRINGTON

He might or he might not, but in nine cases out of ten he would be.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move to insert after the word "conveyed" the words "to such port and disembarked." The words would then run "Unless… the horse has been … certified … to be capable of being conveyed without cruelty to such port and disembarked." It is simply a matter of drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 12, after ("conveyed") insert ("to "such port and disembarked").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move to leave out the words "both during the intended voyage and after being disembarked. The owner of the horse shall pay to such veterinary surgeon," and to insert words which will make the provision read "There shall be paid to the Board or such person as they direct in respect of such examination such fees as may be fixed by the Board."

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 12, leave out from ("cruelty") to ("in") in line 14, and insert ("There shall be "paid to the Board or such person as they direct"). —(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON

The object of the next Amendment is to secure that the fees are to be collected before the examination takes place.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 14, after ("examination") insert ("and before it takes place").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON

I now move to further amend the provision I have just read by leaving out the words "fixed by "["fixed by the Board"] and to insert "prescribed by order of."

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 15, leave out ("fixed by") and insert ("prescribed by order of").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON moved to delete from the proviso all the words from "Provided that" to the end of the clause, and to insert other words. The noble Earl said: The existing proviso, for which I propose to substitute a new one, affects Orders which it is quite unnecessary to lay before Parliament, such as orders as to fees, and if allowed to remain it would have the effect of postponing the operation of the Act for six months, as the Order necessary to supplement the Act would have had to lie in draft before each House of Parliament for not less than thirty sitting days. The new proviso is free from these objections, while it gives Parliament the control which is rightly desired over the Board's action.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 21, leave out from ("that") to the end of the clause, and insert ("every order made under this section prescribing the cases to be excepted shall be laid before each House of Parliament as soon as may be after it is made, and if an address is presented to His majesty by either House of Parliament within the next sub sequent thirty days on which that House has sat next after any such order is laid before it praying that the order or any part thereof may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the order or part thereof, and it shall thenceforth he void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SKYE AND SELE

The object of the new subsection which I propose to add at the end of Clause 1 is simply to give the veterinary inspector at the docks the same powers which every policeman has outside under the Injured Animals Act.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, line 2, after ("order") insert the following new subsection— (2) If any horse examined under this Act shall be found by the veterinary inspector to be in such. a physical condition that it is cruel to keep it alive, it shall be lawful for him, without the consent of the owner, to slaughter the animal, or cause it to be slaughtered, in such a manner as to inflict as little suffering as practicable.—(Lord Sage and Sele.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move to add the two additional subsections standing in my name. At the present moment a horse is marked by a label with the letter "P" as passed and the date and number. The penalty for the offence in the second new subsection which I propose is a fine not exceeding £20. The procedure is already in force, and it is necessary to prevent the substitution of a rejected horse for one already passed.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, line 2, after ("order") insert the following new subsections— (2) A veterinary inspector may for the purposes of identification mark a horse certified by him under this section in such manner as the Board may by order prescribe. (3) If any person, with a view to evading the provisions of this Act, marks a horse with the prescribed mark, or with any mark so nearly resembling it as to be calculated to deceive he shall be guilty of an offence against the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894.—(Earl Carrington.)

THE EARL OF DERBY

Under the first of these subsections a horse might be branded in such a manner as would take away a great deal from the value of that horse. It is not stated that the mark is to be only a temporary one. I hope the noble Earl will not press this new subsection.

EARL CARRINGTON

I shall be pleased to meet the noble Earl by inserting words on Report to prevent branding.

THE EARL OF DERBY

The marking should be sufficient to prevent the substition of another horse, but at the same time should not be of a permanent character. If the noble Earl would insert words that the marking should not he of a permanent character that would meet all objection.

EARL CARRINGTON

I will do that.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2

Fee for licence, &c., to export horses.

2. Notwithstanding anything in section forty-seven of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, there may be charged by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for any licence, permit, or examination required by any order under that Act relating to the exportation of horses such fee or other charge as may be prescribed by order of the Board.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move, after the word "exportation," to insert the words "or shipment." We must supplement this legislation by an Order dealing with the coastal traffic. There is a traffic down the coast of Scotland from Aberdeen to Leith and Grangemouth. and we ought to have these words in so as to cover the coastal traffic as well as the direct traffic to Holland and Belgium

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 6, after ("exportation") inser "or shipment").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF DERBY

There is an Amendment on the Paper in my name to leave out Clause 2. I put it down in order to get sonic explanation, because I did not see why under Clause 2 there should be a question of charges and also under Clause 1. But I think the noble Earl's explanation that this is meant simply to deal with coast traffic explains that, and therefore I do not move my Amendment.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3:

Master to cause slaughter of injured horses with approved killing instrument.

3.—(1) If any horse shipped from any port in Great Britain to any port outside the British Islands has a limb broken or is otherwise seriously injured during the voyage, the master of the vessel shall forthwith cause the animal to be slaughtered, and every vessel on which a horse is so shipped shall carry a proper killing instrument, to be approved by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, for that purpose, and it shall be the duty of the owner and master of every such vessel to see that the vessel is provided with such an instrument, and the master, if so required by an inspector of the Board or of the local authority, shall produce the instrument for his inspection.

(2) Expressions in this section have the same meaning as in the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894.

LORD SAYE AND SELE

I move to insert, after "otherwise" ["has a limb broken or is otherwise seriously injured"], the word "so." This Amendment is simply to make it clear that slaughter is only intended to prevent cruelty.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 11, after ("otherwise") insert ("so")—(Lord Saye and Sele.)

EARL CARRINGTON

Experts think that the wording is not very happy; but I will agree to the Amendment now, and perhaps the noble Lord will consult with me so that we might get other words which will effectively carry out his object.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF DERBY moved to leave out "during the voyage" ["seriously injured during the voyage"] and to substitute the words "while on board." The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to make it perfectly clear that as soon as the horse is on board the ship the Act applies. It might otherwise be claimed that the Act did not apply while the ship was actually in dock.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 11, leave out ("during the voyage") and insert ("while on board").—(The Earl of Derby.)

EARL CARRINGPON

The Amendment is agreed to.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SAYE AND SELE

The words which I propose to insert follow upon the insertion of the word "so," which has already been accepted.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 11, after ("voyage") insert ("as to "be unable to be led away on disembarkation "without cruelty").—(Lord Saye and Sele.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move to leave out subsection (2). This is simply a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, leave out lines 20 and 21.—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

Powers of entry.

4. An inspector of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, or of the local authority, may enter any vessel for the purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of this Act, or of any order under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, relating to the exportation of horses are being complied with.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move to insert the words "or shipment" after the word "exportation." These two words are required to cover the coastal trade.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 26, after ("exportation") insert ("or shipment").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5:

Duty of local authorities to enforce Act.

5.Every local authority described in the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, shall execute and enforce this Act within their district.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move to insert, after "shall," the words "if and so far as the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries by order so direct." In some cases, at any rate, it will be necessary for the local authorities to appoint shipment officers to see that no horse is shipped without the necessary certificate or other authority.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 28, after ("shall") insert ("if and "so far as the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries "by order so direct").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6:

Offences.

6. If any person does anything or omits to do anything in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, he shall be deemed guilty of an offence against the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, and the provisions of that Act relating, to offences shall apply accordingly as if the expression "animal" therein included horses.

EARL CARRINGTON

The words which I propose to add throw upon the master of the ship the responsibility of seeing that the horses are not improperly shipped.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 31, after ("Act") insert ("or if the "master of a vessel permits a horse to be shipped "therein in contravention of this Act").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendment agreed to

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

THE EARL OF DERBY

I move to insert a new clause, with which I think the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is in sympathy, and which I believe he is ready to accept.

Amendment moved—

Insert the following new clause— 7. The provisions of this Act shall not apply in the case of shipment of any thoroughbred horse certified in writing by a steward or the secretary of the Jockey Club—

  1. (a) to have arrived in Great Britain not more than one month before the date of shipment for the purpose of being run in a race; or
  2. (b) to be shipped for the purpose of being run in a race; or
  3. (c) to be shipped in order to be used for breeding purposes.
Provided that such certificate shall be delivered at the time of shipment to the master of the vessel on which the animal is shipped, who shall, on demand, produce the same to any constable or any inspector or other officer of the Board or the local authority, and allow such person to take a copy of, or extract from, the certificate.—(The Earl of Derby.)

LORD SAYE AND SELE

I accept this new clause.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL CARRINGTON

I move to insert a commencement and interpretation clause. The Board are prepared to make the necessary arrangements for bringing the Act into operation on October 1 next, which will enable us to deal with the winter traffic, which is naturally the worst.

Amendment moved—

Insert the following new clause— 7.—(1) This Act shall come into operation on the first day of October nineteen hundred and ten. (2) In this Act the expressions "vessel," "owner," "master," and "part" have the same meanings as in the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and the expression "horse" includes ass and mule.—(Earl Carrington)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

Title:

An Act to amend the Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 and 1896, in respect of the exportation of horses.

EARL CARRINGTON moved to amend the Title of the Bill so that it would read, An Act to amend the Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 to 1909, in respect of the exportation and shipment of horses.

Amendment moved— Page 1, leave out ("and 1896") and insert ("to "1909") and after ("exportation") insert ("and "shipment").—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 106.)