Lords Sitting of 7 July 1910

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Cardiff Railway.
Eastbourne Corporation.
Yorkshire Registries and Driffield Navigation.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

NORTH EAST LONDON RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee that it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: Costs awarded to the Great Eastern Railway Company, the Petitioner against the Bill.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
KIRKCALDY CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
FYLDE WATER BOARD BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
PAISLEY GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, relating to Paisley Gas—Was presented by the Lord Pentland; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 90.)
KIRKCALDY CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Pentland); and reported from the Committee. (No. 91.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROV ISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed.
LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
CALEDONIAN RAILWAY ORDER CONFIR MATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to order), and Bills to be read 3a on Monday next.

ARMY RETURN.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, seeing the noble Lord the Under-Secretary of State for War in his place, I venture to ask him a question of which I have given him private notice. He was good enough to say that he would lay a Return giving certain figures with regard to the cost of the Territorial Army as compared with that of the old Volunteers. It would be a great advantage to your Lordships to have the figures, if possible, before Lord Dartmouth brings on his Notice on Monday next.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD LUCAS): We are arranging so that the Return shall be laid in time to be in the hands of noble Lords before Monday's debate begins.

CENSUS (GREAT BRITAIN) BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, this Bill to which I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading follows generally the Acts of 1900 and 1890. It applies, as both of those Acts did, to Scotland as well as to England, but it does not apply to

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Ireland. There is a separate Bill in the name of my noble friend Lord Ashby St. Ledgers, under which the Irish census is taken in rather a different manner. The Bill the Second Reading of which I am now moving does not in itself call for much comment. There are, however, two important points in which it differs from its predecessors.
The present Bill requires that the schedule to be filled up by the householder should include, in the case of married persons, particulars indicating the duration of the marriage and the number of children born of the marriage who are still living. A good deal of importance is attached to these figures by the medical authorities and also by some of the statistical authorities, who think that by the help of these figures interesting information will be secured. The Bill also requires that the number of rooms inhabited shall be specified in each case. It is thought that over crowding is not confined to tenements of four rooms, and information on this subject will be useful.
I suppose the cheers which greeted the Bill just now indicated that in the opinion of some noble Lords opposite it is remarkable rather for what it does not, than what it does, provide. I suppose that there will be some criticism as to the omission of the religious census. That is an old question which has been raised time after time, and on each occasion this House, as well as the other House of Parliament, has decided that it is unnecessary to ask for these particulars. At any rate noble Lords opposite as well as ourselves are equally guilty in this respect. In 1890 a Departmental Committee was appointed to inquire into the question, and in their Report they said—
"Representations have been made both in favour of and against the census of religious profession in Great Britain. In other countries and in our Colonies such information is obtained, but reasons of a political character have been urged against returns under this head, and we are not in a position to make any recommendation regarding the matter."
When the Bill of 1890 was before the House of Commons the then Leader of the House opposed the taking of a religious census on the ground that it would cause heat, and to a certain extent, ill-feeling.
Then there was a debate in your Lordships' House inaugurated by the noble Earl, Lord Camperdown, who was very
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anxious that these figures should be asked for; but the late Lord Salisbury, who was then Leader of the House, suggested various difficulties that might arise and inquired whether it might not be necessary to obtain certificates of the religious belief of an individual from his two senior female relatives. The result of that discussion was that the Motion was withdrawn. The question was not raised again, and the Bill went through Second Reading and Committee in your Lordships' House without any difficulty at all. The then Archbishop of Canterbury took part in the discussion, but refrained from pressing the Government to obtain these particulars. I would venture to impress upon your Lordships that there is a very large number of people in this country who would really believe it improper for the State to ask such questions, and a very large number of them would certainly refuse to give the information. We believe that in those circumstances the value of the statistics would be very considerably diminished.
Noble Lords opposite, I am sure, will see that the value of the statistics which are obtained in the various Dominions where these particulars are asked for is so far invalidated by the number of people who refuse to answer the question. We think that the census should apply only to matters of fact that can be easily answered and to which no individual would object. We admit that these particulars are required in Ireland, but there the case is somewhat different. Noble Lords opposite admitted that last evening, when they said that even cattle maiming was different in England from what it was in Ireland. The circumstances in the two countries are so far different that we trust they will be accepted as a sufficient reason for making a difference in regard to this, matter. I submit that the inclusion of this request in this Bill would certainly not tend to peace between the various churches and denominations in this country, and therefore it is advisable that we should follow the example of previous Governments and not ask for these particulars.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, the noble Earl, with that intuition which comes from years of official experience, has correctly anticipated the criticism which will

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be indulged in with regard to this measure. We live at the present day in an age of statistics; We are perpetually endeavouring to obtain information, useless or the reverse, upon every variety of subject except that of the religion of the people, which we are forbidden to obtain unless we happen to live in Ireland. The relation of religion to population is universally recognised as one of the most interesting facts of the present day. I observe that the President of the Local Government Board claims that in forming an exception to the rest of the world we show our good sense. But if that is correct, it shows not only that good sense is very sparsely distributed throughout the universe, but that this country and Scotland have a monopoly of it. I have made some inquiries into the matter, and I find that in every country in Europe, with the exception of France, and I believe in every British Colony without exception, a religious census is taken, and in no quarter is any opposition raised to it.
In this country we enjoy, or it is supposed that we enjoy because we have no means of ascertaining the fact, a larger number of religious denominations than any other country, and the fact of there being so large a variety of these denominations has led to difficulties with which everybody is well acquainted with regard to education and other matters. It is an open secret, in fact it is blazoned, so to speak, upon the housetops, that as soon as the Government feel themselves strong enough to undertake the task, they will attempt to disestablish the Church in Wales. That being the case, surely it is obvious that an impartial religious census is much more required in this country than in any other. One would naturally suppose that the first thing that people interested in this subject would desire would be that there should be an impartial set of figures to which they could refer. Failing an official census, you are depending upon amateur censuses which irresponsible people are always prepared to take. In Wales, for example, which is the most striking instance, the political Nonconformists are only too glad to number themselves. In fact, if they get the opportunity, they are quite prepared to count themselves several times over. But, on the other hand, they have the strongest and most insuperable objection to their opponents being counted by an official authority.
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Putting Wales temporarily aside, I should like, if the House will permit me, to deal shortly with the objections which have been hitherto brought forward by the Government and their supporters to including a religious census. First of all, we have the fine old crusted Front Bench objection that they are not going to require these particulars because their predecessors did not require them, and that because the Government in 1890 would not give the figures they are not going to be silly enough to do anything of the kind themselves. In no circumstances would that statement make a deep impression upon me. But the circumstances are totally different. The reason why the figures Were not asked for in 1890 was that there was very little time, but that is an excuse which cannot be pleaded at the present moment, because it is obvious that the House of Commons has great difficulty in finding sufficient work to do. That is one argument which is already disposed of.
Then there is the so-called inquisitorial objection on which the noble Earl laid considerable stress. I may say, to start with, that any objection relating to an inquisitorial inquiry comes with singularly bad grace from the present Government, who have appointed hordes of officials for the purpose of prying into persons' private affairs. But as a matter of fact a census, in itself, is an extremely inquisitorial proceeding and cannot very well be otherwise, and it becomes increasingly so every time that one is taken. Is it not, for instance, an invidious thing to ask a man whether he is deaf or an imbecile and how many bedrooms his family occupy? Is it not an invidious and delicate thing to ask a woman her age? The majority of persons who have reached a certain period of life would far prefer to be asked what their religion is than their age. The fact is that it is an extremely delicate matter to put inquiries of this kind to either sex. I have heard on good authority of a noble Lord, a well-known member of this House, who was so appalled when filling up the census paper at the prospect of having to put the question as to her age to a lady occupying an important position in his household, that sooner than do it he took train and never stopped until he reached Naples. But there is a more serious side of this question. It stands to reason that working-men, for instance, are naturally apt to make their age out to be lower than

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it really is so as to secure better chances of employment.
But inquiries of this kind do not by any means exhaust the inquisitorial nature of the queries which it is proposed to put. In view of the dropping of the birth-rate at the present moment the Local Government Board are in this census instituting inquiries into what they call the comparative fertility of married couples in various social positions and of different ages. For my part I should have thought it was difficult to devise a more inquisitorial inquiry than this. It is obvious that there are many heads of families who have larger families than they can legitimately account for, and it is possible, in view of the method of inquiry, that the Local Government Board might appear to think their families were too small. But in either case it is difficult to see what effect these inquiries can have. It may be interesting to the Local Government Board, but what practical effect the information can have upon the birth-rate of this country passes my comprehension altogether. With regard to inquisitorial inquiries, I do not suppose it would be denied that a woman living alone is liable to be asked whether she is divorced or separated from her husband, and whether she has borne any children. Could there be anything more inquisitorial than these inquiries? Yet the Government come to us and say that while the ordinary individual, however fastidious and sensitive of nature, is going to submit to these interrogatories without wincing, a question with respect to his or her religion would be regarded as an intolerable insult.
In addition to this particular form of objection, it is contended occasionally that persons, chiefly domestic servants, would be in danger of losing their places if their religious denomination was disclosed. The imaginary victim of religious intoleration I imagine to be some housemaid or nurse who has successfully masqueraded for years as a member of the Church of England, but who is detected by a lynx-eyed head of the household when the census paper has to be filled up, and is forthwith dismissed with ignominy. I fail to believe that such establishments exist; but, even if they do, the grievance must be an imaginary one, because if anyone did hold these intolerant and tyrannical ideas it would be a condition of service, and therefore the contingency which is
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feared could never arise. There is yet another objection of a somewhat ingenious nature which I observe was raised in another place. It was pointed out that there are a number of persons in this country who worship occasionally in Nonconformist chapels and occasionally in Church, and it was argued that when the question was put to them as to what their religion really was, they would be seized with a kind of mental paralysis and would be quite unable to say what they were. Personally I should have thought there I would have been no more difficulty in stating what your religious convictions were in those circumstances than you would have difficulty in saying by what Christian name you are habitually known supposing you own to two.
The last objection of all, and the one upon which no doubt the greatest stress is laid, is that it is feared, as the noble Earl indicated, that persons who had no particular religious belief would inevitably be described as members of the Church I of England. This is a view which I am totally unable to understand. I noticed that the President of the Local Government Board adduced his experiences in prison as a proof of that danger, but all I that he proved was that criminals apparently found a Church of England service more attractive than any others. And with regard to the fear that Agnostics and Freethinkers and people of that description would write themselves down as members of the Church of England, all I can say is that as far as my experience goes such Agnostics as I am acquainted with would never for a moment dream of describing themselves as members of the Church of England, and they would be rather glad of the opportunity of proclaiming what their opinions really were.
I maintain that the hypocrisy—I can use no other word—the gross hypocrisy of these objections is most conclusively proved by the practice in Ireland. The fact that a different system obtains in Ireland is absolutely conclusive to my mind that the objections to a religious census in Great Britain are political and nothing else. The excuse made for treating Ireland differently I understand is this, that religions are so sharply divided in Ireland that there is no difficulty in discrimination and that subsidiary denominations do not exist. I have looked into the figures.

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Of course the vast majority of Irishmen are Roman Catholics, but there is a large number, as everybody knows, of Episcopalians; there are Methodists, and there are Presbyterians; in addition, out of a population of 1000,000, there are 60,000 put down as belonging to denominations which are not specified; and out of these 4,000,000 people there were not 700 who made any objection to stating what their religious belief was.
Let us be honest if we can over this question. The religious census was established in Ireland in 1861. Why? Because at that time it was proposed to disestablish the Irish Church, and the people who proposed to do so knew that it would be safe to take a religious census. In 1910 you would like to do the same thing in Wales if you had the courage to set about it, but you are not taking a religious census because you are afraid the figures would be against you, and it is desired to encourage the idea that the agitation which is conducted in Parliament and elsewhere is represented by an adequate majority in the country. In no civilised country in the world, so far as I know, with the exception of England and Scotland, is a man, whatever he may be, afraid to avow his religious belief. Here alone, for political reasons, baseless objections are put forward for evading a clear issue, and these baseless objections are admitted by an accommodating Government. All I can say is, it does not reflect much credit either upon the people who make these baseless objections or upon the people who find excuses for them, and I trust that when this Bill goes into Committee some member of this House, a right rev. Prelate for choice, will put down an Amendment embodying the views which I have ventured to express.
THE LORD BISHOP OF ST. ASAPH: My Lords, I will not detain the House for more than a moment, but I rise to express the hope that an Amendment on the lines suggested by the noble Lord will be accepted by His Majesty's Government. The position of Wales presents a strong case for the taking of a religious census. The Prime Minister, in moving his Resolution in the House of Commons regarding the Church in Wales, based his case upon figures, but arrived at the statistical position in a rather curious way. He did not select the number of adherents to the various religious bodies, but counted the
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various sittings in Nonconformist place; of worship—not a very exhaustive or satisfactory way of dealing with the numerical argument. I do not think there is any great objection to such a census in Wales, Churchmen, at any rate, could most cordially welcome it. For thirty years various religious bodies have organised voluntary religious censuses, but it is impossible to arrive from them at a satisfactory enumeration of the religious beliefs of the people. We are very anxious to know how the statistical argument stands with regard to Wales. If this argument, which I do not think is at all conclusive, is to be used, let it be as accurate as it can be. There has been a Royal Commission sitting on the question of the Church in Wales, and I believe they have been unable to make a satisfactory enumeration from the various statistics that have been supplied. I therefore sincerely hope that an Amendment in the spirit of the remarks of the noble Lord will be moved in Committee and accepted by His Majesty's Government.
LORD SHEFFIELD: My Lords, I should like to say a word or two as to why, in my opinion, We should not treat this suggestion too seriously. This is one of those theatrical parades which we have whenever a Census Bill comes up, but it always comes to nothing, and nobody supposes that the policy which has been settled for many years will be altered this year. I should also like to say a word as to the extremely delusive character of a religious census in England. I have had experience in connection with an obligation to ascertain the religious beliefs of parents. I speak with reference to sending children to industrial schools. In the School Board for London we had a large number of those cases, and the Act of Parliament required that we should ascertain the belief of the parent in order to determine to what school the child should be sent. Year after year we found that when the parent was asked in the police-court what his religious belief was he invariably replied, unless he was a Roman Catholic, that he was a Protestant.
The average Englishman, if he is given to religious exercises either in church or chapel, knows what he is, but there is a large number of people whose religion consists largely, like the Royal Declaration, in disclaiming the errors of the Church of Rome. Some noble Lords may remember that a cyclone of religious controversy

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passed through the School Board for London when Mr. Athelstan Riley raised an educational discussion, and, aided by the then Home Secretary, Mr. Matthews, succeeded in getting the magistrates not to be satisfied with the declaration that the parent was a Protestant, but to press upon the parent that he should specify to what denomination of Protestantism he belonged. The majority under this pressure ultimately gravitated to Church of England. That is no doubt what you would get in this case. The ordinary man in the street would very likely call himself Protestant, and if he was goaded to say something further he would say "Church of England," but it would be quite worthless. I do not attach any importance to a census of chapel or church places, because we know that the energy of church builders outruns the zeal of church frequenters. In the United States no official census of religious opinions is taken, though an informal inquiry was set on foot by the various religious bodies themselves. In 1851 there was a religious census taken in this country, but it was a census of the attendance on a particular day in all places of worship. It did not give satisfaction, though so far as it tested preference for any form of religious adhesion it was as good as any.
In these theological controversies people make imputations freely. They are the amenities which are associated with theological discussion. For instance, there was the statement of the noble Lord opposite that political Nonconformists in Wales were so anxious to be counted that they wished to count themselves twice over. Since the time to which I have referred various voluntary organisations have attempted this census. The Daily News some years ago took statistics of the number of people attending churches and chapels in London, and similar censuses have been taken in various great towns in Wales, but the results have not been conclusive. If you take important events in men's lives, you are led to believe that there are more adherents to the Church of England than there really are. In the case of marriages, something like between seventy and seventy-five per cent. of the population in this country are married in church. But everyone who knows anything of life, and especially in villages, knows that it is quite the usual thing for people in a village to be married in church,
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then to frequent some form of dissenting service throughout their lives, and when they die their right is naturally claimed to a church service, and they are buried in the churchyard. I can assure the noble Lord who has raised this question that of all things the most delusive would be to attempt to get at the religious belief of that floating mass, which is very large, of the population who stand aloof from all forms of religious denomination. More and more the mass of the working-class population are sliding away from adhesion to any form of religious belief, though they are not sliding away from aggressive free thought. The tendencies of the age have brought out a different point of view of these matters. If a census official went round, most of these people, to save bother, would say they belonged to the Church of England, and you would get a most inconclusive conclusion. I hope noble Lords will recognise that, and not clamour for a thing which, even if you got it, would be useless.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

CENSUS (IRELAND) BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

THE ARMY RESERVE.
THE DUKE OF BEDFORD*THE DUKE OF BEDFORD rose to call attention to the state of the Regular Reserve, the Special Reserve, and the Special Contingent; and to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War—

1. If the 27 Fourth Battalion Special Reserve Infantry are considered capable of expanding the Regular Army abroad by battalion units.

2. The establishment of the Special Contingent Category B. in the Army Estimates of 1910 being 7,552 and the strength 552, how is this shortage to be made good for the Expeditionary Force.

The noble Duke said: My Lords, the Prime Minister, speaking last January at Haddington, is reported to have said that—
" He would be perfectly content that the administrative record of the Government should be judged as a test case by comparing the state of the Army as it was left by Lord Midleton and the state of the Army as it is to-day, after four years of Liberal administration."

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We know that the Regular Army of to-day is not so numerous as the Regular Army of 1905. If the Government on assuming office considered that the Regular Army, as they then found it, was needlessly large for all the possible demands of Imperial defence, by all means let them reduce its numbers, provided always that there is a corresponding reduction in Army Estimates. The strength of the Army is a matter for the Government of the day, advised by the Committee of Imperial Defence, to decide. It is not a matter which I presume to discuss. I do, however, strongly question the statement made by some members of the Government that by reducing the numbers of the Regular Army they have thereby rendered it a more powerful instrument of war than when they took office. The Under-Secretary of State for War last January went to Bodmin and made a speech, in which he is reported to have said—
" It is perfectly true we have reduced the Army by something like 18,000 men, but the Army is a stronger thing to-day than before those 18,000 men were taken away."
Stronger in what? Stronger in numbers or stronger in efficiency?
Let me first take numbers. You have not only reduced the number of men serving with the Colours by 18,000, but, by diminishing nine Reserve-creating cadres, you have reduced the quantity of the Regular Reserve. The high-water mark of the Regular Reserve, the outcome of Lord Midleton's policy, will be reached this year. It is 137,000 men; the low water mark, 106,000, is given in Lord Erroll's Return, and will be readied in 1913. The difference is 31,000 men. The Army Estimates of this year show the actual reduction of men serving with the. Colours to be one short of 24,000. That number, with the ultimate reduction in the Reserve, will amount to 55,000 men gone from the Regular Army and Reserve by 1913. But that is not the end of the story. In 1905, the strength of the Militia—that is, the number of men actually present at inspection—was 92,035. The Militia has been abolished, and the Special Reserve created. The Special Reserve to-day numbers 67,948 men and 1,823 officers—that is. 24,087 men and 625 officers less than the number actually serving and present in the Militia in 1905. We arrive, therefore, at this result, that the Regular Army and the Regular Reserve, plus the Militia, if it had remained
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at its strength of 92,035, would have been 79,087 men stronger than the Regular Army with its Regular and Special Reserves will be in 1913. The year 1913 will be an important year in military administration, because that is the date when the reductions initiated by the Government in our First Line will have been fully realised. Of course the Militia was not enlisted for foreign service. But officers and men always served abroad whenever required, and for some years previous to the abolition of the Force were asking for foreign service enlistment. A Bill for that purpose passed its Second Reading in your Lordships' House in March, 1905. There is, therefore, no weight in the argument that whereas the Special Reserve is enlisted for foreign service the Militia Force could not be reckoned upon to serve abroad.
The Army then is weaker in numbers. Is it stronger in efficiency? Any contention that the quality of the Army to-day is vastly superior to that of the Army of 1905 is at once disposed of by the statement of the present Secretary of State for War, who said in March, 1906, three months after he took office—
" Never before that time had there been such good material in the Army. The morale, both of officers and men, was higher than ever it was. The Army was in a condition in which it had never been before, both in point of quantity and quality."
Now can anyone seriously contend that whilst the quality of an Army remains the same, to reduce its quantity by 80,000 men—and I am not talking about a paper establishment but about men who were actually serving in the ranks—is to make it stronger for the purposes of war? But I quote from the closing paragraph of the noble Lord's speech at Bodmin—
"Here we are then. The Army is a great deal stronger than when we took office, and it costs the country a great deal less."
We may well ask whence comes this accession of military power, and do the Army Estimates show a great reduction in expenditure, and one that is likely to be of a permanent character? The Army Estimates for 1905 were £28,000,000; those for 1909, £27,435,000—a decrease of £565,000. It is, however, clear from the recent proceedings of many County Associations that unless the Government are prepared to give their new Territorial infant Army, now aged two years, a much more generous scale of diet in the way of pounds, shillings,

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and pence, it will very likely perish in its nursery from insufficient nutrition.
I am anxious to draw your Lordships' attention to the condition of the Regular Reserve, then to that of the Special Reserve, and finally to a puzzling lot of people who appear to be interchangeable during various phases of mobilisation between the Territorial Army, the Special Reserve, and the Regular Army. Ever since Lord Cardwell created the Regular Reserve, some forty years ago, the maintenance of its quality and the increase of its quantity have been the constant care of ten successive Secretaries of State for War. In 1906, when the Government assumed office, it was for the first time discovered that the Regular Reserve was unduly inflated and must be diminished. It has been diminished, and, as I have already said, will dwindle away from 137,000 until it touches bottom at 106,000 in 1913. But this year comes a most significant incident—namely, that the Secretary of State for War, in introducing the Army Estimates, expressed himself as not satisfied with the future of the Regular Reserve. He considers that there will be no danger for the next two or three years. That is obviously true, because the destructive policy of the Government will not make itself felt till the expiration of that period. It is no more possible to eat your cake and have it than to reduce the Regular Reserve and maintain intact at its original establishment the Expeditionary Force. The formation of this Force at the strength first announced was only possible owing to the presence of the Regular Reserve created by Lord Midleton, inherited by the Government, and now in process of reduction at their hands.
In 1907 the Secretary of State for War issued a Memorandum giving a table showing the composition of this Force. If you take that table and the state of the Army in 1908 as a standard of comparison and allow the same rate per cent. for unfitness and immaturity, which is always allowed by the War Office in these calculations, you will find, after a lengthy but simple process of arithmetic, that in 1913, when the Regular Reserve is at its lowest, the deficiency in the Regular Reserve to meet the war establishments required by the Expeditionary Force will be more than 5,000. But inasmuch as the Regular Reserve will be 5,000 men short of the number
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required, it will be necessary to dip at once, and pretty deeply, into the Special Reserve. I lay stress on this point for this reason. It is expressly stated in the last Army Annual Return that the Special Reserve will not be used for active service at once, but will, on mobilisation, commence to acquire that training without which I have never heard it suggested that the men are' fit to take the field as first line soldiers. The noble Lord the Under-Secretary of State for War told us on the 18th of May of last year, when speaking of the mobilisation of the battalions upon the peace establishment—
"You may have a few hundred or a few thousand men over, but practically speaking whatever is left over is a negligible quantity."
The noble Lord is describing with great accuracy the result in 1913 of the Government policy of reducing the Regular Reserve. At present, owing to the large Reserve created by Lord Midleton, there would be a surplus of Regular Reservists left behind after the departure of the Expeditionary Force of more than 20,000 men, and that after allowing for all necessary deductions.
There are two great Army problems demanding simultaneous solution. They are the maintenance of a large Army Reserve and the supply of the Indian drafts. The noble Viscount, Lord Midleton, created the largest Army Reserve we have ever had by the plan of three years Colour service, but that period of enlistment did not suit for the provision of the Indian drafts, and hence it had to be abandoned. Mr. Arnold-Forster endeavoured to meet the double problem of the Regular Reserve and of the Indian drafts by creating concurrent long and short service enlistment. The present Government on assuming office hastened to wipe out that plan without even giving it a trial. In short, they reverted to the same system which had been proved by experience to furnish an insufficient Reserve in time of war, although it did meet the difficulty of the Indian drafts in time of peace. Then after four years they warn us that the problem of the Regular Reserve is unsolved and that its future is critical. The administrative record of the Government, as regards the Regular Reserve, is that having succeeded to the most numerous Regular Reserve we have ever had, they will in six years time reduce it to such an attenuated condition that, in

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their own opinion, it will give cause for anxiety. Are we expected to accept that result as a proof of superior success in Army administration?
I now come to the Special Reserve. In November, 1908—that is, in the first year of the existence of this Force—the Secretary of State for War, speaking at Guildford, is reported to have said—
"So far from the Regular Army having been cut down, we are to-day 90,000 stronger."
That number of 90,000 represented the total establishment of all branches of the Special Reserve when the formation of the new Force was first announced, and it corresponded approximately with the actual number of men present in the ranks of the Militia previous to its abolition. In dealing with the Army Estimates this year the Secretary of State for War informs us that the establishment of the Special Reserve will in future be 70,000. This means that a strength of 90,000 men who were actually present and serving in the ranks of the Militia will be reduced to a paper establishment of 70,000 Special Reservists, and that there is no Militia Force.
The Special Reserve comprises Infantry, Artillery, Engineers, Army Service Corps, Army Medical Corps and Veterinary Corps. To get at the true state of this Force it is necessary to deal with it in detail, and I cannot now go beyond the Infantry. The Special Reserve Infantry have seventy-four third battalions and twenty-seven fourth battalions. The establishment for subalterns is 1,915. By the Return on the Table of the House, and including twenty-four subalterns lately passed into the Regular Army, the deficiency is 1,381. You have 534 subalterns serving instead of 1,915 required. The number of Regular officers required for all the Special Reserve battalions is said by the Return to be complete, but by the Army List of the 1st of May fifty-six captains and fifty-three Regular subalterns have not yet been posted to the third and fourth battalions. Perhaps the noble Lord the Under-Secretary could say if the Return is right and the Army List wrong, or the other way about. The discrepancy of 109 Regular officers in the Infantry alone is considerable. On March 1st. 1909, the Secretary of State for War was asked if he was satisfied with the recruiting of the Special Reserve officers. The right hon. gentle-
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man replied that he depended on the new Officers Training Corps, the fruits of which would begin to be seen in the summer of 1909. We are now in the summer of 1910. On the 7th of March of the present year the right hon. gentleman stated that fifty officers from the Officers Training Corps had joined all branches of the Special Reserve, and that he was still hopeful of getting 1,000 per annum from this source. But the Return now on the Table of the House shows that since its formation the Officers Training Corps has supplied the Special Reserve Infantry with three officers. A deficiency of 1,380 subalterns met by an average intake of about one and a-half officers per year as far as the Officers Training Corps is concerned! As regards men, the Special Reserve Infantry shows an increase of 522 since last year.
The duties of the third and fourth battalions of the Special Reserve are different in time of war. The fourth battalions, we have always been told, are ready and are reckoned upon to expand the Regular Army abroad by battalion units the same as the Militia used to do. As regards officers, the establishment of subalterns for these twenty-seven extra special Reserve battalions is 513; the number now serving is 120—a deficiency of 393. Not a single battalion is less than ten officers deficient, and one of these fourth battalions is twenty officers deficient out of an establishment of twenty-eight. If the total number of boys under twenty years of age is deducted, as they must be, for foreign service, and ten per cent. of the remainder is allowed as medically unfit, the strongest of these battalions would number 470 for foreign service, and the weakest 120. The twenty-seven battalions would average 370 men for foreign service, but they are very uneven in strength, and it must be remembered that the ten per cent. allowed for unfitness is the rate for the Regular Army and is sure to be exceeded in the case of the Special Reserve, for the best of all possible reasons—namely, that the Force is recruited in the first instance from men unfit for the Regular Army in time of peace, and that the boys in the Special Reserve do not, like the Line recruits, grow all the year round under the eye of the Army surgeon amidst most sanitary surroundings, but at the end of six months are discharged into the streets to shift for themselves. I have made no allowance for absence due to desertion, death, emigration, and frau-

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dulent enlistment by the same man into several regiments, so that the figure of 370 is really an impossible maximum. These battalions have, of course, no Reserve to draw upon. I ask the Under-Secretary of State for War if the Government consider these battalions will be available for the expansion of the Army overseas by battalion units. It is idle to talk about increasing or rather doubling the establishment of these battalions, except you are prepared to show us how you are going to obtain the officers and men.
I now pass to the seventy-four third battalions who form the general drafting pool. In order to understand how this plan would work out, I must ask your Lordships to assume two things—first, that the year 1913 has come, and, secondly, that the Expeditionary Force has gone abroad. Then calculations based on Army Returns show that, taking the Army of 1908 as a standard of comparison, we should be left at home with seven Regular battalions, but depleted battalions, because of the many calls made upon them to help the Expeditionary Force. Then a mass of some 77,000 men and boys, composed of the unsound from the Regular Reserve and the immature and unfit from the Line and Special Reserve. This collection of 77,000 men and boys, all either too young or unfit for active service, are to bring the ranks of all the seventy-four third Special Reserve battalions up to a thousand men or more per battalion. We are told that these Reserve battalions thus swollen are to move into the vacated barracks and port defences, a move which will, by the way, denude the regimental depots of all their trained mobilisation staff at the very moment when their services are most required.
These third battalions, we have been told by the Secretary of State for War this year, are to serve three purposes—training drafts for the Army overseas, defending ports, and flocking to strengthen the central field force when crushing raids. How they are to defend a port and join a central field force at the same time is one of those secrets of mobilisation which we are not allowed to know. Let us consider their fitness for the discharge of this treble duty. I have mentioned the deficiency of subalterns. Then as to that vital third estate, the non-commissioned officers. A Line battalion would take into the field 880
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trained men in the ranks, with a staff of seventy-four non-commissioned officers. For the Special Reserve battalion a staff of thirty-two non-commissioned officers is allowed to manage 1,000 or more men and boys collected from different sources, and devoid of all regimental spirit and feeling, and with but little discipline. Battalions so composed and without any adequate supply of officers and non-commissioned officers are not battalions at all. They are crowds, incapable of performing any military duty requiring a battalion organisation. It is true that these seventy-four depots, for they are in no sense battalions, can send out drafts of men. The surgeons may patch up a proportion of the unsound men from the Regular Reserve and Line and make them temporarily fit to be sent abroad on active service, but not even the Army Council can turn Special Reserve boys of seventeen and eighteen into mature soldiers of twenty-two or twenty-three years of age in six months, or yet a couple of years. But who is going to take charge of these drafts when they go abroad, for there are no non-commissioned officers, there are no subaltern officers, and the First Line drafts must begin to leave the moment the Expeditionary Force takes the field?
We have been told in an Army Memorandum dated February 25, 1907, that to supply the waste of war during the first six months 3,500 officers will be required, and 75,000 men. The 75,000 men will be there, but not available for service overseas, because they are composed, as the War Office statistics tell us, of the discarded elements of the Expeditionary Force. Then as to the 3,500 officers. The only suggested source of supply is the Officers Training Corps, which up to the date of the Return furnished three officers to the Special Reserve Infantry since its formation by the Army Order dated March 8, 1908. It is all very well to talk of an Officers Training Corps of 20,000 members, but these are cadets in school corps. I hope they may all grow up, but will they ever be able to discharge the duties of a First Line officer on active service within a few weeks of the outbreak of war? There is, I know, at present a large paper reserve of officers, composed chiefly of ex-Militia and ex-Volunteer officers, who were once occasional soldiers, but retired some years ago when the great changes took place, since which time they have

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done no military training at all, but have outgrown a subaltern's age.
I now come to that category of men who appear to belong to all three branches of our military forces simultaneously. They are called the, Special Contingent. They originate in the Territorial Army to which they are supernumerary, but it is in theory only, because, so long as the Force is below its establishment, how can there be supernumeraries save in imagination? On mobilisation these men are to leave the Territorial Force, filter through the Special Reserve into the Regular Reserve, and ultimately be deposited in the Regular Army. They consist of Engineers, Army Service Corps, and Army Medical Corps. The establishment is 7,552, and their strength, according to Army Estimates of this year, is 552, leaving a deficit of 7,000 men. The Special Contingent is necessary to complete the Expeditionary Force, and I beg to ask how its absence, which is fairly complete, will be made good. The Regular Reserve is in process of rapid reduction, and in less than three years time it will not be able to meet the requirements of the Expeditionary Force. In its place we have the new drafting pool, filled by the Special Reserve, the Special Contingent, and officers and men in the Territorial Force who accept the metal badge for foreign service. As a result we are informed that now for the very first time arrangements have been made for the scientific provision of First Line drafts to the Army in the field. As regards the Special Contingent, with an establishment of 7,552 it shows a deficit of 7,000. It is non-existent.
I have described in detail the state of the Special Reserve Infantry. I now beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will kindly explain how he proposes to remedy the lack of officers, the lack of non-commissioned officers, and the lack of mature and sound men in the First Line Reserve. For my own part I cannot accept, as a scientific provision for drafts for the Regular Army, officers who have been at some time or other, and that some four or five years, ago, in the old Volunteer or Militia forces, or boy officers, that is to say cadets straight from school or college; Regular non-commissioned officers made by the simple process of sewing stripes on to the sleeves of non-Regular private soldiers; and, finally, unfit Reservists and unfit men from the Line and boys from the Special
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Reserve who must now go abroad without having done any Colour service at all. If all the officers required for the Special Reserve Infantry and for the Regular Mounted Infantry, which are detailed to act as divisional Cavalry with the Expeditionary Force, are sent to those forces from the line on mobilisation, there would be now, by the Army List, a shortage of 700 officers in the Line. There must be 700 vacancies on mobilisation for officers either in the Line or in the Special Reserve, because in spite of War Office legerdemain one pea cannot be under two thimbles. I beg to ask the Questions standing in my name.
LORD LUCAS: My Lords, the noble Duke is an extremely difficult debater to follow and extremely difficult to answer. He has an unparalleled knowledge of details and an unparalleled power of presenting them, but in taking part in a debate inaugurated by the noble Duke I always feel that we are in some danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. After all, we must consider this question not only from the point of view of details, but also from the general standpoint. The only criterion by which you can judge any military system is what are going to be the results of the changes which we know the noble Duke so greatly deplores. I am glad to be in a position to say that we are now within measureable distance of achieving the main object that we set before ourselves when we embarked upon this reorganisation scheme—namely, being able to mobilise six Divisions of Regulars with all their auxiliary services, with lines of communication, and the Cavalry Division. We can already mobilise more than four Divisions, with lines of communication and the Cavalry Division, and on a pinch I think we can mobilise the rest. We should not in these circumstances have the whole of the draft-finding machinery behind complete, because we should have to draw on that at the present moment to an undue degree, and to a degree which we shall not have to draw upon it when the organisation fills up. At the present moment we can mobilise a larger expeditionary force than has ever been possible before in the history of this country.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: No, no.
LORD LUCAS: And that force is a real force and composed of efficient soldiers.

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Therefore we are in process of carrying out the object which we set before ourselves at the beginning of this reorganisation. After all, you have to consider the various parts to which the noble Duke referred from the standpoint of how far they are fitted to be components in the general scheme. I will take them in the order in which the noble Duke dealt with them. But I would like to say that the value of the many speeches of the noble Duke, to which we always listen with interest, is to a great extent, if he will allow me to say so, spoilt by the fact that there are four principal fallacies underlying all his arguments. The noble Duke, first of all, argues that we are replacing Regular Reservists by Special Reservists. The noble Duke assents. We are doing nothing of the kind. There are two entirely separate questions involved. One is the reduction of certain units of the Regular Army. You may agree with that policy or you may not, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the question of mobilising the units that remain with their own Reservists. You have to treat those two questions entirely separately. We are perfectly prepared to justify, though I do not think we need enter now into that question, the reductions which are made in the Infantry. But there is one thing which comes out perfectly clearly and plain with regard to the Reserve, and it is this, that under the Cardwell system, or any other system, you cannot have any method or terms of service which will at the same time enable you to maintain your drafts for India and do more than fill up the home battalions to their fighting strength on mobilisation. It has been tried in every form. Various terms have been tried. Three years with the Colours and nine years with the Reserve has been tried, but that will not produce the drafts for India. Then six years with the Colours and six with the Reserve, and nine years with the Colours and three with the Reserve have been tried. Whichever you adopt you find that if you provide your drafts for India you cannot do more than bring your units up to fighting strength on mobilisation with Reservists that remain. You may have a few hundreds over, but, broadly speaking, that is all you are able to do under the Cardwell system. Therefore we did the only thing possible. We are maintaining the Reserve while at the same time finding the necessary drafts for India, and we shall be able to
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mobilise our fighting units when the time comes.
Then the noble Duke argued as if all Special Reserve recruits were only seventeen years of age, and he always argues as if they will continue to remain unfit for the Regulars. He also assumes that the Special Reserve is simply to be an expensive funnel by which men pass into the Regulars. How those two things can come about at one and the same time I do not understand. If a man is fit to pass into the Regulars from the Special Reserve, presumably you cannot consider him in every case unfit to join the Regulars in the form of drafts. There is another important assumption the noble Duke makes. He bases his arguments on the point of all Special Reservists being required for the purposes of drafts at once on mobilisation. That cannot be the case. How soon they will be required it is impossible to say. It must depend upon the nature of the war, but we should require none of the Infantry Special Reservists at first.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Is the noble Lord speaking of the present state of things, or what my noble friend behind me called the moment when the Regular Reserve will be at its lowest—in 1913? On an outbreak of war in 1913 does the noble Lord say that no Special Reservist will be required at once to fill up the fighting line?
LORD LUCAS: I will take the year 1913, when the Regular Reserve will be at its lowest. In that case we shall require no Special Reservists to bring the Regular battalions up to full war establishment; we shall only require them subsequently for drafts and in a successive series of drafts, so that there will be time for these men to mature. To take the Special Reserve and to say that because at a given time there is a certain proportion of immature men, therefore that proportion will remain for the purpose for which we shall require these third battalions, is incorrect. The fourth point that always underlies the noble Duke's speeches is that for these purposes the Special Reserve is in every sense inferior to the old Militia. I would point out, as the noble Duke raised that question, that the Militia, though it is quite true they were prepared to volunteer for service abroad, were not

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prepared to volunteer for service abroad in the form which, from the general standpoint of military organisation, is incomparably the more useful—namely, to go abroad in drafts. They were prepared to go abroad only as units, and I say without hesitation that the value of men who will go abroad as drafts is double that of those who are only prepared to go abroad as units. The Special Reserve is by no means unique in having a considerable number of immature men, and there is nothing that can be said about them in that respect that was not equally applicable to the old Militia.
The noble Duke challenges the power of the Special Reserve to carry out its functions. I would like to place before your Lordships what the position of the Special Reserve is and its general fitness, and how the scheme is working in the light of our last year's experience. About this time last year I was able to tell your Lordships that the reports already received on the Special Reserve were satisfactory. I am glad to be able to say that the reports received this year show that the improvement has been more than sustained. Our military authorities in the districts tell us that the Special Reserve is more popular than it was; it is drawing a very good class of men; and the physique is very good. Those of your Lordships who may have read the annual General Return will have observed that we have been able to raise the height standard to 5ft. 3in., which was until quite recently the height limit for the Line, although it has now gone up to 5ft. 4in. for the first time for twenty years. In those ways there is a marked superiority in our reports on the part of the Special Reserve over the old Militia, although it is quite true that the men as a whole are younger—that is to say, there is a smaller number of men over twenty years of age coming in as recruits. In the matter of age, however, there is very little to choose between them. Last October there were 19,855 men under twenty out of a total of 67,548, which is just about the same average as with the Militia. In fact, I think that is an average which the force will probably always maintain. You cannot judge at the present moment of the number of men you will have mature and fit to send abroad in the early stages of a war, especially if you have to send them to some country where the climate is tropical and unhealthy.
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I know it is argued by the noble Duke that we have so many men over twenty in the Special Reserve at the present moment because of the old Militiamen, and that when those men go the state of things will be greatly altered. Out of 12,000 men who were dismissed to their homes on the completion of their six months training, on the analogy of last year's figures approximately 1,000 would have tried to pass into the Regular Army. That leaves you something like 11,000 men who have not tried to go straight into the Regular Army but have remained in the Special Reserve. The Militia in old days and the Special Reserve now consist of two classes of men—those who join in order to pass into the Regular Army and those who wish to remain. I have described these men who remain as a sediment, for in every year's intake there is a certain number who pass into the Regular Army and a certain number who remain. The latter will remain for six years instead of four years as in the old Militia, so that until the system has been running for six years you will not be able to tell what your normal proportion of mature men in the Special Reserve is going to be. There is a very fair proportion, about the same as in the old Militia, of men who join with the intention of staying on. I cannot say more on that point, because we have not had time to judge, but, so far as we can judge at present, the Special Reserve is coming out of the test very well indeed.
With regard to the general question of the efficiency of the Special Reserve, I am glad to say that our reports are particularly good. The results of the six months recruit training are excellent. We have had reports from the officers responsible for the training, in which they say that the system is working exceedingly well. We have lately received an exceptionally good report from the General Officer commanding at Salisbury as to the Special Reserve battalions who have been training on the Plain, and from the point of view of general military efficiency they are considerably superior to the old Militia. We are perfectly satisfied that these are the kind of men who will perform satisfactorily the work we intend them to do, which is to act as drafts for the Regulars. In the matter of musketry the returns are also good. It is quite true that there is less time for musketry, and perhaps the annual course of musketry is less thorough

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than it was, but the recruit has a much better grounding than formerly in his six months recruit training, and he does not therefore require so long for his annual course.
Complaints have been made as to the training of the non-commissioned officers. With a shortened training that is a difficulty, but this year we are instituting a course by which non-commissioned officers come up a month before their battalions come up. It is purely voluntary on their part, but they can, if they like, go through a month's extra training. There is another point which I daresay will interest your Lordships with regard to this. This year we are going to experiment with the Special Reserve and to impose a very high test on the Force in performing in peace time the functions for which it is intended in war. We are going to use a certain number of these Special Reservists to bring the Second Division up to something like war strength in this year's manoeuvres, and in some cases between 300 and 400 men of the Special Reserve will be incorporated for the time being in Line battalions.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Officers as well as men?
LORD LUCAS: Yes. It will be a very high test on these Special Reservists, because they will only have had about eleven days training before the manoeuvres, whereas, as your Lordships know, the manoeuvres come in the Regular Army as a climax to a long period of very strenuous training. The men are in extraordinarily good condition and fit to inarch, with great powers of endurance; therefore to put your comparatively untrained Special Reservist alongside of them is going to be a good test indeed. Then with regard to the twenty-seven extra battalions to which the noble Duke referred. When passing the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act we listened to the blandishments of noble Lords on the opposite side of the House and departed from our original intention, which was that the establishment of the fourth battalions should be considerably higher than the establishment of the third battalions. In deference to the wishes expressed in this House and in the other House by the Opposition, we agreed to bring down the establishment of the fourth battalions to that of the third, and we realise now that that was a mistake. I think there is perfect truth in the noble
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Duke's criticism that as they stand at the present moment they are not strong enough to go out as combatant units. An able Departmental Committee has for some time been considering the subject, and I can assure your Lordships that it is undergoing the most careful attention, as we realise that something will have to be done to make the battalions stronger than they are at the present time.
Then there is the question of the officers for the Special Reserve. We know that there is a great shortness of officers, and this is one of our most difficult problems. We started the Officers Training Corps, and we believe that we have found a solution for this. I am glad to say that we are now beginning to see the results of the system. Since the Return referred to by the noble Duke was issued, fifty officers from the Officers Training Corps have obtained commissions in the Special Reserve, and something like 120 in the Territorial Force.
THE DUKE OF BEDFORD: In the Special Reserve Infantry?
LORD LUCAS: In all arms, but most of them are in the Infantry. I am glad to say that we are receiving now a considerable number of inquiries from members of the Officers Training Corps with regard to commissions, so that the harvest is now commencing, and I think we are going to get a considerable number of officers. There is a further difficulty with regard to this. The class of officer who is able to go out at the particular time of year when his unit trains is limited, and I am not at all sure that we are not getting somewhere towards the end of that class. Some men, especially young men, in business do not control their own time, and have to take their holidays when they can get them. Such men, however keen they may be to do soldiering, may find it difficult to join a unit which trains at a particular time. To that class of men the Supplementary List, as we call it, is a greater attraction than joining a unit of the Special Reserve. When a man becomes an officer in the Supplementary List, he can go out for training at whatever time of the year suits him best, and he does his training with a Regular unit. There is no doubt, from inquiries we are receiving, that if we can extend the system of the Supplementary List we shall secure a considerable number

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of officers who would not otherwise be obtained.
As to the noble Duke's last question, it is quite true that the men in what we call Category B are not yet up to anything like establishment. They are men who for the purpose of training are attached to the Territorial Force; they are borne supernumerary to their units. Since the figures which the noble Duke quotes were issued they have considerably increased, and are now well over 800, but there still remains a considerable gap. We are adopting a temporary measure while they are filling up. Medicals form a considerable number of these Category B men. We have had satisfactory results from taking advantage of the big Reserve that exists at the present moment and training a certain number of Infantrymen. We have nearly 2,000 Infantrymen who have gone through a special course of training in medical duties, and who have undertaken the obligation to come out on mobilisation as members of the Royal Army Medical Corps. We are going to extend that this winter to a certain extent, so that that will partly fill up the gap. The remaining men who will be required are chiefly Army Service Corps drivers, but every day the need for these is diminishing as mechanical transport is becoming more and more the accepted thing.
I have tried to cover the ground as fully as I possibly can. I must say that we have every reason to be satisfied with the way in which the scheme is progressing. We are getting a good class of men, we are getting them in good numbers, and their training is satisfactory. We have now before us at least the prospect of obtaining an entirely new supply of officers, and our system in that way is, it seems to me, working well. I hope I have given the noble Duke the information he requires, and I trust he will see that we, at any rate, do not share any of the gloomy forebodings as to the future of any of the forces which were mentioned by the noble Duke.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I hope I shall not be considered disrespectful if I say that the interesting speech which the noble Lord has just delivered is not entirely convincing to us on this side of the House as regards the position of the Force with which he specially dealt. The noble Lord, while not admitting the noble
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Duke's conclusions, does not challenge his well-certificated figures, and he leaves us with the optimistic conclusions of the War Office but with the facts of the noble Duke unchallenged and unrefuted. I did not intend to take part in this debate in view of the series of military discussions which are to come on in your Lordships' House, but I really cannot allow the noble Lord or the House to go away with the impression that we accept the conclusions at which the War Office have arrived in this matter.
This and other Motions on the Paper are not the result of a desire to be continually harping upon the deficiencies of the Army, but they are the result of the provocative and highly-exaggerated accounts which the Secretary of State for War has given of our position time after time. The noble Duke quoted a speech which I consider to have been almost a criminal speech for a man in the position of the Secretary of State for War to have made. In that speech, which was delivered nearly a year and a-half ago at Guildford, the right hon. gentleman told the country that for purposes of offence abroad we were stronger by 90,000 men than we had been before the Government came into office.
LORD LUCAS: Hear, hear.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: Does the noble Lord accept that?
LORD LUCAS: Absolutely.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I absolutely challenge it. I say there is not a particle or shred of foundation for that statement. The figures quoted by the noble Duke refute it. The noble Duke has stated that the Government are now 18,000 men short with the Colours of the number they inherited; in the Army Reserve they will be 36,000 short, and in the Special Reserve 24,000 short of the old Militia—making 79,000 men short. All you have to put against that is that you have 57,000 men, I think the number is, in the Special Reserve who before were not obliged to go abroad, but who did, in point of fact, go abroad when they were called upon.
LORD LUCAS: I submit that that does not disprove my right hon. friend's statement last year, that we had at that time 90,000 more men available for service abroad than we had when he took office.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: What the Secretary of State for War said was that we were stronger by 90,000 men.
LORD LUCAS: Yes, for service abroad.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I challenge that figure. The Secretary of State did exactly what the noble Lord has done to-night. The noble Lord told us, I think with great inaccuracy, that the Government were able to send a larger number of troops abroad now than ever before. I say that we were able in 1905 to send as large a number of men abroad as he is now able to send in 1910.
LORD LUCAS: Not in anything approaching the proper proportion of the different arms.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: What the noble Lord is fond of doing is this, and he has inherited it from the Secretary of State for War. He takes the exact position of the moment in a scheme not fully developed and says, Look how much better we can do than that. My noble friend Lord Lansdowne added between sixty and seventy batteries of Artillery to the Army, and because, as would be the case under any system in any country in Europe, those batteries were not able within three years to produce the whole Reserve element which they would ultimately have produced, the noble Lord proceeds to say that the scheme inherited by the present Government would not have enabled the Artillery to have been mobilised, and then, having cut down the Artillery, he proceeds to say they never would have been mobilised. That is one way of bringing out the figures. With regard to the other position, when the Secretary of State for War was speaking of his 90,000 men he was drawing upon the Reserve of Infantry, 36,000 of whom are going to disappear in the next four years. He counted those in among his 90,000, although he has destroyed the cadre which produced them and done away with the period of service by which they might have been continued.
I could not allow these exaggerated statements to go unchallenged. I know them to be inaccurate. I know that they are founded on false premises, and that they have led the country to false conclusions. Seeing that the present state of things has been brought about by an
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enormous reduction in the number of men and that without the corresponding reduction in expenditure which had been promised, I am afraid that in a subsequent debate it will be necessary for your Lordships to consider this from the point of view of the Territorial Army and the general strength of the country. The whole of this subject of the Special Reserve is argued by the noble Lord as if it was only a question of getting a certain number of men to shovel into the Regular battalions now bereft of the Reserve which was created for them before, and to fill up the gaps which the abolition of those cadres which produced the Reserves has left. I would point out that there was a clear understanding, in the debates of 1907, that the cadres of the Special Reserve should themselves be able to mobilise. They were not to be bereft of all their men and were to be sent out with their officers. I want your Lordships to follow what has occurred in this discussion. The noble Duke pointed out that there are 500 officers short in certain battalions. The noble Lord, in reply, says, very ingeniously, that they are training officers who are not being trained with the battalions but will go up at other times of the year. How are those officers to take men whom they have never seen and with whom they have never trained out to join in a campaign, say, in India? You are not keeping to your bargain that you would maintain the cadres intact, and that any men you did take out as drafts you would take out under their own officers.
As between the two I believe your Lordships will feel that the noble Duke has made good his case when he said that what would remain behind in these cadres would not be of any great military value. Remember that after these six Divisions have gone—and you can only mobilise four now—you have nothing remaining behind against an invader except these cadres of Special Reserve battalions and the. Territorial Army, the value of the former of which the noble Duke has said so much about this afternoon. I do feel that on these points we have a right to complain of the exaggerated language which has been used by the representative of the War Office, not for the first time. As we are not in possession of the reports which are always cited to us showing a more admirable state of things than we on this side of the House are aware of—although it

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might not be in the power of the noble Lord, having regard to the public interest, to publish all these reports upon which he founds his roseate descriptions of the condition of the Army—it is inevitable that there should be a feeling of incredulity with respect to them when the figures which are quoted can be shown to be inaccurate; and I am afraid that in consequence I must charge at the noble Lord's door the multiplication of Army debates, which I for one, in the public interest, should be very glad to forego.

ARMY.
Return showing the strength and approximate total cost of the Imperial Yeomany and Volunteer Forces for the year 1905–1906 as compared with the strength and approximate total cost of the Territorial Force for the year 1909–1910:
Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.