Lords Sitting of 20 April 1910

LLANELLY HARBOUR.
Petition of the Urban District Council of Llanelly and the Llanelly Harbour Trust under their Corporate Seals praying for leave to bring in a Bill to confirm and give effect to an Indenture between the Llanelly Harbour Trust, the Urban District Council of Llanelly, and the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, to amend the Llanelly Harbour Act, 1904, and for other purposes, together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
WARRINGTON CORPORATION BILL.
(Petition for Additional Provision.)

ABERTILLERY AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
(Petition for Additional Provision.)
Examiners' Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.

HANDSWORTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
GREAT CENTRAL RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported, with Amendments.
EAST GRINSTEAD GAS AND WATER BILL.
Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
RAILWAY PASSENGERS ASSURANCE COMPANY (TRANSFER) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
BAKER STREET AND WATERLOO RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MATLOCK BATH AND SCARTHIN NICK URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified: Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MALLOW URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

IRISH UNIVERSITIES ACT, 1908.
Statute B. for University College, Cork. (No. 30):
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed.

ENDOWED SCHOOLS ACT, 1869, AND AMENDING ACTS (HOWELL'S CHARITY).
Scheme for the administration of the foundation, consisting of the share determined by the Charity Commissioners to be applicable for the benefit of the county of Denbigh, of Howell's Charity for girls' schools in Wales, as held for educational purposes. (No. 31):
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed.

LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed.

REFORM OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, I was sorry not to be in my place yesterday when the question arose as to the time when the Resolutions standing in my name should be brought forward. I have taken every opportunity to-day and previously during the week to find out what would be most to the convenience of noble Lords generally, and I understand that if I were to give notice for next Monday, as I had at one time thought of doing, if I received encouragement, that would be considered too short a notice. I have, therefore, put the Resolutions down for the first day of the meeting of the House of Lords after the recess. I see by the report of what passed yesterday that my noble friend opposite proposes to take the Government's Resolutions as soon as possible after the recess. But I think he will agree that it is better that our Resolutions should have priority in our own House, more especially as they have been for some time on the Paper and as in any case the postponement cannot be for more than two or three days after the time that he had originally contemplated.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF CREWE): My Lords, I do not desire to take any exception to what my noble friend has said, subject, of course, to the fact that we are anxious to proceed as soon as possible after the recess with the discussion of our own proposals, and on the understanding that the time named by my noble friend—two or three days—is not likely at any rate to be greatly exceeded.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I cannot give any guarantee on that point.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I venture to think the proposal made by my noble friend on the Cross Benches is one which will suit the general convenience of the House. We on this Bench were fully prepared to take the Resolutions next week had my noble friend so desired. My noble friend, however—I think rightly—felt that the question was one in which the body of Peers had naturally a great interest, and that it would not be fair to them to take the discussion at a time when many of them might find it impossible to attend. My noble friend, I understand, has made inquiries which have satisfied him that if he had given notice to-night of his intention to take the Resolutions next Monday, that would not have been regarded as sufficient notice by many of those who desire to be present.
House to be again in Committee to consider the best means of reforming its existing organisation so as to constitute a strong and efficient Second Chamber on the first sitting day after the Recess at Whitsuntide.

COUNTY COMMON JURIES BILL. [H.L.]
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ALVERSTONE: My Lords, this Bill is brought in to get rid of a small difficulty in the civil work of Assizes. The Juries Act of 1825, Section 22, limits the number of common jurors who may be summoned to 144. With the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor the Judges have been arranging for very extended sittings at Manchester and Liverpool, and we have assigned a Judge to take the civil work for a period of about two months and it
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may be more. As these common jurors have to servo on criminal and civil cases, at times the number of 144 would not be enough. I therefore propose to repeal the words "not exceeding one hundred and forty-four." Exactly the same difficulty arose in connection with special jurors, and a similar course was taken in 1898 when a Bill was passed excising the limit of numbers. I provide in this Bill that the High Court shall have power to make rules so that there shall be no excessive summoning of county jurors.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Alverstone.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD LOREBURN): My Lords, this is an eminently reasonable proposal for facilitating business, and I do not think any objection will be raised to it.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

PERSIA.
LORD LAMINGTON LORD LAMINGTON rose "to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will state what is the position of the negotiations in regard to Persia obtaining a loan from Great Britain and Russia." The noble Lord said: My Lords, ours is not the only country that is undergoing a constitutional spring-cleaning. This process is taking place in an excessive degree in Persia, only her operations are hampered to a far greater degree than our own by the lack of money. I have raised this question because it is imperative for Persia to have the means of carrying on her administration, and she can only obtain the necessary funds through a loan guaranteed by our Government and that of Russia.
The amount asked for is comparatively small. It is calculated that with so small a sum as £500,000 Persia could be set on her feet, and it would have been thought that these two great countries between them would have been able to make this advance without any difficulty. No doubt the intentions of His Majesty's Government are excellent in this matter, but there is reason to doubt whether they have stood steadfastly by Persia in these negotiations. I am not by any means complaining of the action of Russia. Her attitude

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towards the national movement in Persia has always been perfectly clear. For her own reasons she has not regarded that movement with approval, and ever since it was started she has done her best to thwart it. Therefore it is quite natural that Russia would regard with disfavour any procedure calculated to give Persia a greater amount of independence. The result has been that conditions too onerous for the acceptance of Persia were attached to the proposed loan. Possibly the Persian Government might have accepted them, but the Mejliss would not submit to those conditions; and I do not think we should blame them for striving to free themselves from foreign domination.
Persia's efforts to secure independence are at times referred to slightingly in the Press. For my own part I think every fair-minded person should admire the conduct of that small band of patriots who have shaken off the worst despotism of modern times, and who have succeeded at least in setting up the machinery of constitutional government. They have done this without any money at their disposal. They acquired an empty Treasury and yet have for months, till the incident recently reported in the Press, kept order in a country seamed by mountain ranges and broken up by desert tracts, and I do not believe that at any time during these troubles, until recently, have the life and property of Europeans been really in danger in Persia. This has been managed in the face of the fact that the troops of another Power have been garrisoning certain towns in Persian territory, thereby diminishing the prestige of her Government and emboldening the old reactionary party to, if possible, subvert the new Constitution. In spite of these difficulties, which I think may be described as almost unparalleled in the case of a newly-born Constitution, they have, as I say, achieved a reasonable amount of success, and consequently they deserve our encouragement and goodwill.
His Majesty's Government take credit to themselves for the Anglo-Russian Convention, and all that I ask is that they should see that life and substance are given to it. The Preamble of that Convention recites that—
"The two Governments engage to respect the integrity and independence of Persia."
That, I maintain, is exactly what they have failed to do. I would undertake
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that, given the withdrawal of foreign troops from the country and allowing free action to the Persian Government, then, even possibly without the aid of a loan, the peaceful development of Persia, which is what the Convention sought, would be obtained. The conditions of the loan were published the other day in the Press, and without going into details it may be stated that the conditions were of too hampering and onerous a nature to impose on any self-respecting country. I have heard, on what as far as I can ascertain is perfectly reliable authority, that, ever when it was a question of obtaining a considerable sum of money which had nothing to do either with the Government of Russia or with ourselves, as soon as it was understood that this money might be paid into the Persian Exchequer the Russian representative and our representative at once agreed that it would not do to allow any money to be given to Persia, as thereby she would be in a position to carry out her own system of government. I say that that is diametrically opposed to any idea of allowing Persia a free hand in her work of regeneration.
The outcome of all this is not only to increase the difficulties of the Government in keeping order amongst the tribes with the return of Spring and the melting of the snows, but also it has led, as we have recently seen in the Press, to the intrusion of Germany. I do not profess to know the result of that, but, obviously, the intervention of a third great Power will not tend to facilitate matters or to diminish the complications in Persia; and if it has met with any success it is because we have been subservient to the policy of fettering Persia, of making her weak and disorganised, instead of endeavouring to let her realise her dream of a free regenerated country. Formerly we enjoyed the goodwill and confidence of the entire population and the special regard of the Nationalists. This position we have now forfeited, and it is not surprising, in view of our pusillanimous action, if Persia in her despair and needing outside support should be ready to meet the advances of Germany.
It would seem that we are engaged in a dog-and-manger policy or what may soon become a dog-and-manger policy, and the outcome of it will be not only to stifle Persian independence but to lead to com-

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plications disastrous in their effect to our position in the Middle East. The Mahomedan world is beginning to assert itself, and Persia is the geographical centre of that great belt of Mahomedanism which stretches from the Atlantic to the China Sea. It is also the political and literary centre, and Mahomedans associate largely their past greatness with Persia. The thoughts of a Mahomedan revival sprung from Persia, and therefore if Persia is crippled and her position lowered in the eyes of the whole Mahomedan world, that will react most unfavourably on our own Mahomedan subjects. I have been told that the Persians in their distress have sent emissaries to Mahomedans in India. More-ever, it is very unlikely that Turkey would regard with favour the humiliating position in which Persia is placed. The future promises chaos, yet the danger might be averted. It seems so simple merely for both parties honestly to act up to the spirit of the Convention, and then, with an independent Persia, there would be the strongest bulwark against possible friction between ourselves and Russia. The position is far more favourable in these circumstances for a frank understanding with Russia than it was at the time of the signing of the Convention, when there was the corrupt rule of the late Shah to be dealt with. By the establishment of Persia on a sound footing the prestige and security of our Indian Empire would be immeasurably enhanced.
There is one further point I should like to mention. Second only to the authority of our representative at Teheran is that of The Times. For some unexplained reason that great journal has gone quite round in its attitude towards Persia, and now belittles their new aspirations and upholds the ascendancy of the two parties to the Convention. This change of feeling has had a grievous effect on the friendly attitude of the Persians towards us. Recently, in the review of a Life of Warren Hastings, The Times article concluded with a quotation that seems to me, and inferentially to The Times itself, to be very apposite to present circumstances. The anecdote is a record of a conversation in 1814 between Hastings and a young naval lieutenant of his own name, in the course of which the Persian Gulf was mentioned. Hastings said—
"If I were the War Minister of the Czar I should not spend time and effort in trying to get
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to Constantinople by way of Europe. I should endeavour to occupy Persia, and to establish myself at the head of the Persian Gulf. I should then be in a fine position; I could strike at India with one hand and at Asia Minor with the other."
That quotation, my Lords, sets forth my own fears with regard to this matter.
THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, I am sure we have all listened with interest to the speech of the noble Lord on a subject with which he is so competent to deal and upon which he feels strongly; but I am obliged to point out that that speech does constitute something of an abuse of the forms of this House. The noble Lord put on the Paper quite a simple Question, with no notice of motion or any indication that he intended to raise the entire question of the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to Persia, and, indeed, other matters which may be of a kindred character but are not absolutely involved in that policy; and the noble Lord has come down with a number of papers and made a speech as I say of great interest, but one which is altogether outside the terms of the Question which he placed on the Paper. If he had stated that he desired to call attention to the policy of His Majesty's Government in Persia it would have been a different case, and I might have communicated with him beforehand as to whether it was desirable at this particular moment that such a discussion should be raised. In the circumstances I am afraid I must ask to be excused from following the noble Lord into the question of policy which he has raised, and confine myself simply to answering his Question. Of course the nature of that answer he will know beforehand—namely, that the negotiations in question have been broken off because the Persian Government have not seen their way to comply with the conditions for the loan which were asked for by the British and Russian Governments. Speaking generally, I need only say that His Majesty's Government are inspired by nothing but feelings of the utmost goodwill towards the Persian Government and the Persian nation; but in this particular instance they found it necessary to impose these conditions, and as the conditions could not be complied with it has not been found possible to make the advance.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the concluding words of the noble Earl's speech will probably have served somewhat to reassure my noble friend who

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has called attention to this matter. Both sides of the House must feel that this country cannot be indifferent to what happens in Persia. Her geographical position makes it inevitable that we should take an interest in all that concerns her, and at this moment we are no doubt all of us animated by a feeling of sincere sympathy with the new Persian Government in its endeavour to evolve order out of the chaotic condition of things which has lately obtained in Persia. But, my Lords, I am bound to say it seems to me that the noble Earl is justified in asking my noble friend not to press him for more precise information as to the negotiations which are now proceeding. Those negotiations must obviously be of a very delicate and difficult character, and if the noble Earl thinks it inconsistent with the public interest that a statement should be made going beyond that which he has already offered to the House, I certainly do not think we on this side would be justified in asking for such a statement.
LORD LAMINGTON: May I be permitted to say that I originally asked His Majesty's Government whether I should put down a Question to this effect. That
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was a month or six weeks ago. I was requested more than once to postpone it. There must be some limit of time in such matters, and I do not think that my action has been altogether inconsistent with the public good.
THE EARL OF CREWE: The noble Lord must not misunderstand me. I did not complain of his putting down the Question, which, indeed, I have answered. I merely asked to be excused from following him into the wider questions of policy which he raised at the same time.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, I understand that there is no business on the Paper for to-morrow, and I therefore suggest that the House should adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Monday next.
Moved, That the House do adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Monday next—(The Earl of Crewe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.