Lords Sitting of 11 April 1910

Preamble
An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Speech indicates revision by the Peer.

EARL OF RODEN.
Ordered, That the Report of the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom, made to the House of Lords on Friday last, that the right of the Earl of Roden to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to his satisfaction, be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, together with a certificate stating that such report has been made, and that the House has ordered it to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.
Several Lords Several Lords—Took the Oath.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Brighton and Hove Gas.
Surbiton Urban District Council.
Also the Certificate that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the petition for additional Provision in the following Bill:
Warrington Corporation.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

RAILWAY PASSENGERS ASSURANCE COMPANY (TRANSFER) BILL. [H.L.]
Presented, read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
ABERTILLERY AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
Petition for additional Provision; of the Urban District Councils of Abertillery, Abercarn, and Risca, under their Common Seals, together with the proposed clauses and amendments annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
SOUTH LINCOLNSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Order made on the 21st of March last discharged, and Bill committed for To-morrow.
STOKE-ON-TRENT BOROUGH (AMEND- MENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to order), and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
CITY OF LONDON (TITHES AND RATES) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
EAST GRINSTEAD GAS AND WATER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
ABERTILLERY AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
The order made on 21st of March last appointing certain Lords the Select Committee to consider the Bill. discharged.
METROPOLITAN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 9th and 21st of March last discharged, and Bill committed for Tomorrow.
WARDEN'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be in Committee read, and discharged.

WATER SUPPLIES (PROTECTION) BILL [H.L.]
Moved, That a Committee of Five Lords-be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons to consider the said Bill (The Earl of Liverpool); agreed to:
The Lords following were named of the Committee, viz.:

E. Liverpool.

E. Verulam.

L. Clinton.

L. Desborough.

L. MacDonnell.

Ordered, that such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a chairman: Then a Message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith, and to request them to appoint Five members of that House to be joined with the said Committee.

REFORM OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS THE EARL OF WEMYSS had given notice of his intention—
To call attention to the following proposed Resolution which, prior to the late General Election, stood in his name on the Notice paper; and to the important Public Bodies that approve of the said Resolution.
Resolution.
That, in the opinion of this House, it would be for the public good that important trading and other representative societies should each name three members of the existing Peerage in the current, and each succeeding Parliament, to speak and act on behalf of such societies on all questions in which they are interested, and that the names of the Peers so nominated be entered in the Journals of the House.
Important Public Bodies approxing.

Royal Institute of British Architects.

Royal Academy of Arts.

Society of Authors.

Building Trades Federation of the United Kingdom.

Society of Engineers.

Junior Institute of Engineers.

Gas Companies Association.

London Chamber of Commerce.

Machinery Users' Association.

Royal College of Physicians.

Railway Companies Association.

Royal Sanitary Association.

Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom.

The Shipping Federation.

The Surveyors Institute.

Society of British Sculptors.

Employers Parliamentary Council (representing 30 central Associations connected with the chief industries of the United Kingdom).
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I have it in charge from my noble friend Lord Wemyss to apologise to your Lordships for his absence, but his state of health is not such as to enable him to be present to-day. At the same time I want to say that his indisposition is not so serious as to prevent our hoping to see him in his place shortly, and he will then proceed with his Motion.

IMPORT DUTIES AND OLD AGE PENSIONS.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government (1) whether New Zealand and Australia levy a tax on imported articles; and what proportion of
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their revenue is derived from this source; and (2) whether these countries provide old age pensions on a non-contributory basis; and, if so, at what rate per week, and commencing at what age.
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: My Lords, the answer to the first Question is that both the Dominion of New Zealand and the Commonwealth of Australia levy duties on imported articles. For the last three years for which information is available—1906, 1907, and 1908—the annual revenue of New Zealand, exclusive of certain sums collected by the Dominion for local authorities, averaged £8, 826,000, of which £2,949,000, or 33·4 per cent., was derived from import duties; while the annual revenue of Australia, including both the Commonwealth and States revenue, averaged £38,485,000, of which £7,997,000, or 20·8 per cent., was derived from import duties.
In answer to the second Question, both of these countries grant pensions on a non-contributory basis. The conditions vary slightly. In New Zealand pensions are given at the age of sixty-five years. The maximum pension is £26 per annum, or 10 s. a week. The conditions under which that pension is given are that £1 is deducted from the amount of the pension for every £1 of income possessed by the pensioner, and £1 is deducted also in respect of every £10 of capital or capital property which he possesses, with the exception that if his property consists in part of the house in which he lives that is not taken into account if it is of less value than £150. In the Commonwealth of Australia also the age for pensions is sixty-five years; but in cases of total incapacity for work pensions begin at the age of sixty years. The maximum pension again is £26 per annum. The actual rate of pension is in the discretion of the Commissioners; but it shall not be such that a pensioner's total annual income, including his private means, shall exceed the sum of £52. In Australia, as in New Zealand, £1 is deducted for every £10 capital which a pensioner possesses, except when that capital consists partly of the house in which he lives, in which case deductions begin at £100 instead of £150. The general conditions are substantially the same in the Commonwealth as they are in New Zealand. The only difference is that while in both countries certain sentences dis-

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qualify a man from receiving a pension, in the Commonwealth of Australia there is an additional disqualification if a man has deserted his wife, or neglected to maintain his children under fourteen years of age.
EARL STANHOPE: Arising out of those answers I have to ask the noble Lord a yet further question—namely, whether His Majesty's Government are still of opinion that a tax on goods imported into this country could not also pay for old age pensions on the very much lower scale here in force, and, if so, what are the reasons, in view of the facts he has just cited, which cause His Majesty's Government to hold that view? May I refer the noble Lord to what was said by the Prime Minister in another place. Referring to the statements of the Lord Advocate, the Prime Minister said—
"Taking the food taxes as ruled out, taking raw material as ruled out, reducing, as he has reduced, the taxation on imported goods to its proper proportions, the Lord Advocate expressed the opinion, and I think a very well-founded opinion, that Tariff Reform would not meet the expenditure for old age pensions."
I know that it is often said that it is impossible to institute a comparison between young countries and old, but it is difficult to see how this can affect this particular question.
Your Lordships will, I think, agree that people grow old in very much the same way in the Dominion and the Commonwealth as they do in this country, and the noble Lord will not, I think, deny that their death rates compare not a little favourably with our own, the figures for 1906 being 9·31 and 10·85 per thousand for New Zealand and Australia respectively as against 15·4 for the United Kingdom. The noble Lord may, however, say that the imports into New Zealand at any rate are of higher value per head of population than they are in our own. That, my Lords, would, I think, be an explanation that would not be unwelcome to Tariff Reformers in this House, as showing that His Majesty's Government no longer feel that a system of tariffs even as high as that in force in the Dominion tends to cause serious injury to the oversea trade of the country immediately concerned. Perhaps this House may be told that the Lord Advocate was not aware that New Zealand and Australia were actually paying old age pensions on a scale considerably higher than our own, and that therefore
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his statements were terminological inexactitudes, or, if I may use a less cumbrous phrase, Ure-isms. Might I suggest that the Lord Advocate's office in this case may speedily be enlarged from the travelling despatch box of which for some weeks it appears to have consisted in order that it may contain such valuable books of reference as the New Zealand and Australian year books.
The noble Lord may, however, say that I have forgotten the qualifications mentioned by the Prime Minister in the quotation which I have read. I think it is in the recollection of your Lordships that these statements were constantly made without any qualification whatever, and as a matter of fact they do not affect the issue. The revenue derived from food and raw material is but a very small proportion of the whole, as many of these classes of articles are imported free of duty and for the greater part are produced in New Zealand and Australia themselves. If it is said that the tax on imported articles in New Zealand and Australia is a high one, whereas that proposed by Tariff Reformers in this country is considerably lower, it is obvious that His Majesty's Government are of opinion that even a high tax, so far from reducing imports to vanishing point, will bring in a considerable revenue from this source. In view of the facts given to the House by the noble Lord, that New Zealand and Australia do levy a tax on imports and that these countries are enabled, nevertheless, to pay for old age pensions on a non-contributory basis at a rate, not of 5s., but of 10 s. per week, and at ages commencing, not at seventy, but at sixty-five, and in special cases younger still, I have to ask whether it is still the opinion of His Majesty's Government that Tariff Reform would be unable to meet the expenditure for old age pensions in this country, and, if so, what are the causes they adduce for such an opinion bearing in mind the facts the noble Lord has just given to the House.
LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: I can only reply to the noble Earl by your Lordships' leave, because having already spoken on this question it is clearly out of order for me to speak again. I think that the same remark applies to the speech which the noble Earl has just delivered. Though your Lordships allow considerable latitude in the putting of Questions in this

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House I do not think it is customary to ask a Question and, having obtained an answer, then to make a speech, for the reason I have stated. I would suggest that if the noble Earl wishes to raise that point he should put another Question upon the Order Paper, or give notice of a Motion. I might say generally, as to the reason for pensions being on a higher scale in Australia and New Zealand than they are in this country, that the cost of living is considerably higher there than it is here, and that a sum which would be an adequate pension in this country would be altogether inadequate in that part of the world.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL (No. 23).
Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at a quarter before Fire o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.