Lords Sitting of 21 April 1909

Preamble
The VISCOUNT DE VESCI—Took the Oath.
RAWMARSH RECTORY BILL. [H.L.]
The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the Promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill: Order for the Second Reading on Wednesday next discharged: Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.
ALEXANDRA (NEWPORT AND SOUTH WALES) DOCKS AND RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to order), and committed.
DONINGTON WATER BILL. [H.L.] BUNGAY WATER BILL. [H.L.] FRIMLEY AND FARNBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.] GRANTHAM WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
ARDS RAILWAYS BILL. MOUNTAIN ASH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. NORTHALLERTON WATER BILL. SWINTON AND MEXBOROUGH GAS BOARD BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
KIRKWALL PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Order of the 16th of March last referring the Bill to the Examiners discharged, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899: Bill deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Pentland), and reported from the Committee.

INDIAN IMMIGRATION INTO CROWN COLONIES.
LORD MONK BRETTONMy Lords, I rise to call attention to the vital statistics of Mauritius, and to ask the Secretary of
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State for the Colonies whether the effect of Indian immigration on the French population will come under the consideration of Lord Sanderson's Committee; and, if so, to ask how the Committee will take evidence thereon. I hope the noble Earl will not think it presumptuous on my part if I say how glad I am that this Committee has been appointed, because it appears to be the first step to grapple with a problem which is increasing in importance every year, not only for the Colonial Office and Crown Colonies, but also for the self-governing Dominions. I would, therefore, ask the noble Earl to give us all the information he can with regard to the scope of the Committee, and the way in which they are to obtain the evidence upon which they will report.
The Question I have placed on the Paper concerns Mauritius, which is peculiar in that it has been the meeting place of blacks, whites, and Asiatics for a longer period than, so far as I know, any other part of the world, and it is, therefore, a place where one may, in a nutshell, study the effect of the close contact of these races. I would ask noble Lords to allow me for a moment to remind them of the history of Mauritius. It was first seriously colonised in the year 1740 by the energy of a French Governor, who introduced into the island a population of the same stock as that which has produced such sturdy and prolific colonists in French Canada; and for 100 years, with the assistance of black slave labour, they were enabled to run a fairly successful colony. At the end of the 18th Century the population had risen to 65,000, and, according to the Historical Geography of Sir Charles Lucas, two-thirds of that population were blacks. The remaining third must have comprised a very considerable white population. In the year 1835, which is the turning point in the history of the island, the population had risen to 100,000 That was the year of the emancipation of the slaves, and from that time onwards Indians came in, they being more willing to work as voluntary labourers on the plantations than were the blacks. The Indians have since increased in a most extraordinary way, and to-day constitute more than 70 per cent. of the total population, 263,000 of the 375,000 inhabitants being Indians. The blacks and the whites have only increased by 12,000, whilst the Indians have become

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about two and a-half times as numerous as the whole of the rest of the population. I venture to think these figures are very significant.
I should like to call the attention of the House to some of the reports made by an officer who has administered the government of Mauritius. In the Report for 1898 Sir Graham Bower tells us that a steady but absolutely sure change is taking place in the population of Mauritius, a change likely to have important social, political, and economic consequences. He tells us that the old French Creole population is being slowly but surely pushed to the wall, and he adds—
"This is a deplorable fact, and it is to be hoped that, by improved educational and technical training, something may yet be done to save a race which has counted for so much in the history and literature of Mauritius."
In the following year Sir Graham Bower's remarks are still more significant. Speaking of the increase of Indian small-holders, he says that the land is passing from the hands of Creoles of either European or mixed blood into the hands of Indians. He adds—
"The Creole is being gradually squeezed out, and from the social and moral point of view it means the extinction or expatriation of an ancient, cultivated and graceful people, and the substitution of Asiatic for European thought and culture. In a word, if the present movement continues, Mauritius must in a few generations become a purely Indian island, governed and administered by a few English officials some factory managers, and a military garrison."
Apparently the movement has, to a certain extent, continued, because in the last report on the Colony the same writer says that—
"the variation of population for years past has been in the direction of an increase in the Indian and a decrease in the Creole population."
As regards wealth, the Indians are not the poorest portion of the community, whether you compare the rich Indian planters with the rich French planters or whether you take the poorer classes for your comparison.
As to Port Louis–the capital of the island—Sir Graham Bower tells us that thirty years ago it was, to all intents and purposes, a European town; but now the greater part of Port Louis has passed
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into Asiatic hands. Of the Creole population he says, in the Report for 1900—
"They are poor, and are becoming poorer. It can hardly be doubted that the competition of the Asiatics must be keener as time goes on, and that the Creole population, especially those of mixed blood, must find the struggle for existence press, more heavily upon them. Even among families of pure European blood there are many in very humble employment, and were it not for the strong family affection and abundant family charity, it is to be feared that many women of pure European blood and of European culture would be put to great straits to secure the barest necessaries of life."
I have troubled your Lordships with these quotations because I think they afford confirmation of the fact that practically a revolution is taking place in Mauritius, and that from a white and black island it is becoming an Asiatic one. This may be economically sound. It is probably economically necessary. But I think, after the language used by Sir Graham Bower, the case for the whites is worthy of investigation, for the British Government had committed to them a white population which, according to the words of their Administrator, is fast disappearing. The noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies will remember that Mauritius is the birth-place of the dodo. That may be an omen for the white and black population.
The importance of the investigation by Lord Sanderson's Committee is not confined to the narrow boundaries of Mauritius, because in that island may be studied a very much wider question. In Mauritius may be found a justification for the policy of Australia in its northern territories, and, perhaps, of some South African Governments; and in Mauritius also may be studied the advisability of introducing Indians into East Africa, as has been suggested. That is the reason why I am particularly anxious that the investigations of this Committee should be as thorough as possible. It may be said that Mauritius is an exceptional case. I do not think it is. We have it on the authority of Sir Charles Lucas that there is a tendency in other Colonies for the Indian population to develop so as to swamp the other inhabitants. I would, therefore, ask the noble Earl if he could tell us how this evidence with regard to Mauritius is going to be taken—whether official evidence is to be relied upon, whether inhabitants of Mauritius who may happen to be in London whilst the Committee is sitting

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will be heard, and whether other steps will be taken to secure that all sides shall be represented. When the noble Earl wished for evidence from South Africa he sent a Commission to the Transvaal. I do not suggest that Lord Sanderson's Committee should be peripatetic; but I understand that the noble Earl has recently, with the approval of the Legislature of Mauritius, appointed a Commission to inquire into the financial condition of the island, and I would ask the noble Earl whether he could not utilise that Commission in order to obtain information on a subject which is of importance to Mauritius, and, I venture to think, of far larger importance to other provinces of the British Empire.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF CREWE)My Lords, there are two other Questions on the Paper which, although dealing with different parts of the Empire, yet are quite akin in their subject to the Question put by the noble Lord who has just sat down. Therefore, with the permission of the House, I propose to answer at the same time the noble Lord's Question and those of Lord Hindlip and Lord Stanmore.
LORD HINDLIPMy Lords, I rise to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended that the views of the various Crown Colonies affected shall be placed before the Committee appointed to consider the question of the immigration by Indians to the Crown Colonies; whether the Committee has power to call for evidence and to examine witnesses; and, if so, whether evidence other than official will be taken, and in what way it is intended that such evidence shall be obtained.
My object in placing this Question on the Paper is to ascertain from the noble Earl how those living in British East Africa will be enabled to place their views on this subject before Lord Sanderson's Committee. I am somewhat afraid that rather covetous glances have been directed towards British East Africa by those in favour of the immigration of Indians into the Colonies and into Africa in particular; and I am anxious to learn from the noble Earl whether the Committee will be able to take evidence from the unofficial community in East Africa, and also whether some of the native chiefs will be asked if
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they would like the country flooded with Indians. If they could have heard what my noble friend Lord. Monk Bretton has told your Lordships this afternoon on this subject, perhaps they would not be very anxious to welcome the immigration of Indians. I sincerely hope the Committee will not be content with simply examining a few officials, and possibly a few ex-officials, who happen to be in England when evidence is being taken, but that a real attempt will be made, once and for all, to ascertain the feeling of the community. If I might offer a suggestion, I think it would be of use to the Committee if the Legislative Council of the Colony, and possibly the Colony Association, would pass resolutions embodying their views on the subject.
LORD STANMORErose to move for any correspondence which may have taken place between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Governors of Crown Colonies relative to the appointment of the Committee to consider the subject of Indian immigration into those Colonies.
The noble Lord saidMy Lords, as I was for some years a resident in Mauritius and am still in close touch with the Colony as Chairman of the Bank of Mauritius, I may, perhaps, be permitted to say a few words with regard to what has fallen from the noble Lord who initiated this discussion. I think that in one respect the noble Lord is somewhat mistaken. He led the House to believe that the Indian population in Mauritius is likely to outgrow not only the black and probably the coloured element, but the white element also. In that I think he is mistaken. I do not believe that the large increase of Indian inhabitants there will in any appreciable degree affect the white population or the employments in which they are concerned. I refer to the proprietors of large estates and sugar works, the leading merchants, and persons in the upper class of society. I do not think that these will be very much diminished. It is to some extent otherwise, no doubt, with the other classes of the population.
But when you come to consider the welfare of the Colony as a whole you cannot, I think, arrive at any other conclusion than that the free Indian population has been of the greatest value to it. Without them the Colony, embarrassed as

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it has been for some time past, would have been in a much worse condition than it is to-day. An appreciable part of the sugar cultivation of Mauritius is carried on by these free immigrants on small patches of land which they have acquired, and it is to them largely that the increased tonnage of sugar exported from the island is to be attributed. I believe there is no class in Mauritius that is not now sensible of the great benefits which the Colony derives from the large body of settled Indians who have completed their agricultural residence, or who are the descendants of those who completed their residence long ago.
As the noble Lord told the House, Indian immigration began in Mauritius about seventy years ago. A great many of those now living in the island as free Indians are the children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren respectively of the early immigrants, and they are quite as much inhabitants of the Colony as the black descendants of the slaves who were imported there fifty years earlier. There is no essential difference between the two. If the descendants of the black slaves who inhabited Mauritius before the Emancipation are to be considered as part of the population of the island, it is equally clear that the descendants of the free Indians are also an integral part of that population. The Indians were brought to Mauritius originally to work on the sugar estates, but fifty years ago there was no law in existence under which they could be repatriated after they had ceased to work on those estates. Consequently they remained on the island. It was for a long time considered a great object so to retain them, because it was desired to keep them at work on the estates. In fact, those who did not work on the estates were looked upon as useless to the island, and as vagabonds who ought to be forced into labour again. That state of feeling has long since ceased.
The Indians have been recognised as an integral part of the population, and almost every one in Mauritius will agree that they have largely contributed to its prosperity, and that were they to be excluded from the island for the supposed benefit of the blacks and half-castes, it would be a calamity. Their places could not be filled, and I cannot conceive that any but the most deplorable and disastrous consequences would follow. With the permission of the House I have
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ventured to make these few remarks with regard to the noble Lord's Question. My own Motion is to ask whether the noble Earl has any objection to giving us any correspondence which may have taken place between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Governors of Crown Colonies relative to the appointment of the Committee to consider the subject of Indian immigration into those Colonies. My object in putting that Motion on the Paper was essentially the same as that which animated Lord Hindlip—namely, to ascertain the course likely to be pursued in procuring evidence from all sources to be laid before the Committee. I beg to move.
Moved, That there be laid before the House any correspondence which may have taken place between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Governors of Crown Colonies relative to the appointment of the Committee to consider the subject of Indian immigration into those Colonies.—(Lord Stanmore.)
THE EARL OF CREWEMy Lords, I am much obliged to the three noble Lords who have asked these Questions, in the first place, for having postponed their Questions for a time, and, in the second place, for putting them on the Paper for the same day. Although, as I said, they deal in some respects with apparently different subjects, yet they are all connected with the Committee which has been set up under the presidency of my noble friend Lord Sanderson to inquire into this large and important question. I can at once answer the Question asked by the noble Lord on the Cross Benches (Lord Stanmore). There is no correspondence whatever to lay as between the Governors and ourselves, because no correspondence has taken place. All that occurred was that when we decided to set up this Departmental Committee we naturally informed the Governors by telegraph, and asked them to suggest the best manner in which evidence concerning their respective Colonies and Protectorates could be brought before the Committee, and also, of course, to mention names of probable witnesses. This Committee was set up by us because we consider that the question into which it is designed to inquire is one of the very first Imperial importance. We have not in the reference to it incorporated any allusions to the self-governing Dominions of His Majesty. As regards Indian

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immigration into the self-governing Dominions, an entirely separate set of questions naturally arises. Those Dominions are by common consent the judges of the extent to which they will admit or forbid the immigration either of His Majesty's Indian subjects or of other persons belonging to different races. Subject, of course, to the general rules which govern the treatment and management of the King's subjects in any part of the Empire, or, indeed, of the world, we feel that the self-governing Dominions must exercise an independent discretion on the matter. There is, however, another important side to the question. There are some very enthusiastic advocates of Imperial unity who seem to me sometimes to fall into the error of considering nothing which can be done towards advancing that unity unless it concerns the self-governing Dominions. I hope I yield to nobody in desiring to draw more closely together the bonds existing between the self-governing Dominions and the Mother Country, but we must not forget in this connection the rest of the Empire. There is India with its 300 millions of population, and there are the Colonies and Protectorates, with a population of between thirty-five millions and forty millions; and when we consider the immense possibilities of development in many parts of these Colonies and Protectorates, we cannot help feeling that anything which can be done to promote healthy interchange between them and the great Indian Empire must be of advantage to the Empire as a whole. It surely is of the first importance that further knowledge and further interchange should create a substantial interest between India and those other Dominions of the Crown which are in certain respects akin to India and are in many cases governed in a similar way.
As regards the particular question under discussion, I will detain your Lordships for a moment by a word on the present state of Indian immigration. I will say nothing about Ceylon, because Indian immigration into Ceylon stands on a somewhat different footing. There are, I think, something like 400,000 Indians on the tea plantations in Ceylon. They pass freely backwards and forwards; they are not indentured labourers, and, except for the purposes of Government, it may almost be said that they are moving backwards and forwards in their own country.
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The same considerations to a great degree apply to the Straits Settlements. The Straits Settlements up to 1867 formed a part of the Indian dominion, and therefore the immigration of coolies into the Straits Settlements and the Malay States stands also on a somewhat different footing from immigration to other parts of the Empire.
I think it is not generally realised how large the Indian population in many of the Crown Colonies is. In Fiji, out of a population of 125,000, one-fifth are Indians; in Trinidad, out of a population of 333,000, three-tenths are Indians; in British Guiana, out of a population of 300,000, four-ninths are Indians; and in Mauritius, with a population of 380,000, 70 per cent. are Indians. One sees, therefore, what an important bearing on the whole life of the Empire this question of Indian immigration has; and one of the important subjects which my noble friend Lord Sanderson and his Committee have to consider is in what circumstances and under what conditions this large influx from India may be applied, and what proportions ought to be applied, to other parts of the Empire.
As to the question of indentured labour, speaking generally, it has been the subject of criticism in many quarters. I have never seen any difficulty myself in defending the system. For certain purposes, such, for instance, as the possession of a vote, and the taking of a direct part in the government of their country, the members of many native races are treated as though they were minors, and so in labour questions. Having regard to the fact that they cannot and do not possess that power of organisation which white labour possesses, it seems to me that they may fairly be subjected to some conditions of apprenticeship as if they were minors; and provided that those conditions are fair and reasonable I do not think they need be subjected to any very severe criticism. At the same time all will, I think, agree that all systems of indentured labour necessarily require very careful watching. There is, of course, a temptation on the part of some to exploit the indentured labourer, and to bring his condition near the border line of that servile condition which all parties in this country would equally desire to avoid for him.
This Committee was, therefore, set up by the India Office and the Office which I have

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the honour to represent. We hope that it may serve the needs of India as well as the needs of the Colonies by indicating and directing the places and the methods to which and by which Indian immigration can best be carried out. The last thing we wish is to exploit in any way the labour of India or to do anything but assist in making a free outlet from the Indian Empire for those labourers who desire for reasons of their own to work elsewhere.
The noble Lord, Lord Hindlip, asks whether it is intended that the views of the various Crown Colonies affected shall be placed before the Committee appointed to consider the question of the immigration by Indians to the Crown Colonies; whether the Committee has power to call for evidence and to examine witnesses; and, if so, whether evidence other than official will be taken, and in what way it is intended that such evidence shall be obtained. The general answer to the noble Lord is that we certainly desire to have every point of view as far as possible placed before the Committee. It is, of course, impossible for Lord Sanderson to undertake a sort of voyage of Ulysses round the world with his Committee and examine people on the spot, but I hope it may be found possible for representatives of every interest who feel strongly on the subject to have an opportunity of coming here and stating their views. I think the noble Lord would agree that a little local trouble and organisation ought to enable representatives of every class entitled to speak for their fellows to come over and give evidence before the Committee. I do not know whether the native chiefs to whom the noble Lord referred are likely to be able to take that course; but when he mentioned them I could not help feeling that we have not always been in the habit of asking the opinions of native chiefs before occupying their countries ourselves; and although I fully admit that the point of view of the natives ought to be put before the Committee, and I have no doubt will be put by the official representatives who have to safeguard their interests, yet at the same time I feel that absolutely to demand the presence of one of these no doubt admirable representatives of the native races would be going almost beyond what my noble friend on the Cross Benches could hope to effect.
Now, my Lords, I come to the question of Mauritius, raised by Lord Monk Bretton
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and also dwelt on to some extent by Lord Stanmore. As Lord Monk Bretton very truly said, Indian immigration into Mauritius followed in the first place on the abolition of slavery. The Indians have now, as Lord Stanmore said, with equal truth, become part of the established population of the island, and, so far as the figures at my disposal enable me to judge, there is no great alteration in the ratio of the different races. I have the figures for 1907, which represent pretty nearly the average of previous years. The general birth rate was 35.3 per 1,000, and the Indian birth rate was 38.8; and the general death rate was 35.2 per 1,000, and the Indian death rate 39.1. So far therefore, as births and deaths are concerned, the House will see that the Indian population is not increasing.
Then the noble Lord spoke of the French, or, as they are more often called, the Creole population; and as regards the question of competition with them, it is a very curious fact that out of 112,000 of them only 3,600 are declared, on their own statement, to be agricultural labourers. I am not prepared to say that that small figure represents the total of those engaged in agricultural pursuits among the Creoles, but it does show, of course, that the proportion is exceedingly small. As regards the immigration figures for the last five years, if the noble Lord would look at them he would see that the number of Indians who have come in and have gone out is practically the same each year, with the exception of the year 1904, when there was a surplus of 1,500 immigrants. For the last five years the average has been about 500 entrants and 500 departures, so that it will be seen that there is no swamping of the rest of the population by Indians.
And if I might trouble your Lordships with two more figures, they confirm in a remarkable degree what was said by the noble Lord on the Cross Benches. There were 264,000 Indians in the island, only 54,000 o whom had ever been indentured at all, and only 96,000 were employed on sugar estates; that is to say, only one-fifth of the Indians in Mauritius have ever been indentured, and only two-fifths are employed in sugar cultivation. That establishes the fact that there is a fixed industrial Indian population in Mauritius. Therefore I do not entirely understand what it is that the noble Lord complains of, because

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the conclusive result of the figures I have given is that the effect of Indian immigration upon the French population in the island is absolutely nil.
Then the noble Lord asked whether it would not be possible for the small Commission which is going out to Mauritius to inquire into the finances and general condition of the island to make some special inquiries on this subject. So far as those inquiries will be germane to its particular reference, I have no doubt they will be made; but I think it would be unfortunate if there were any overlapping between that inquiry and the inquiry conducted by Lord Sanderson's Committee, and therefore I am not prepared so to amend the terms of reference to that Commission as to enable them to make any special inquiry into this particular branch of the subject. I am afraid I have dealt at some length with this matter, but I was anxious, as three noble Lords had called attention to it, to make a general statement.
LORD SANDERSONMy Lords, I think your Lordships will agree that my position in regard to this discussion is more properly one of an attentive and interested listener than of a participant in the debate. But, even at this early stage of the Committee, I may be able to make some remarks of interest to the noble Lords who have raised this matter to-day. In the first place, I think it would be ungracious on my part if I allowed the occasion to pass without expressing my acknowledgments, in which I am sure my colleagues on the Committee would be ready to join, of the alacrity and courtesy with which the staff at the Colonial Office have, with the sanction of the noble Earl the Secretary of State, exerted themselves to procure the attendance of witnesses and to furnish the Committee, and especially the Chairman, with documentary information in almost embarrassing profusion.
Up to the present time the Committee have only been able, in consequence of the intervention of the Easter holidays, to hold six sittings, but they have examined seven witnesses at considerable length. The first gentleman called was a prominent owner of sugar estates in Mauritius, an ex-President of the Chamber of Agriculture, and an elected member of the Legislative Council. The second was an English manager of a sugar estate in the same Colony, previously
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employed in that capacity in British Guiana. The third witness was Sir Charles Bruce, who for eight years filled the post of Lieutenant-Governor in British Guiana, was Governor of Mauritius for six years, and has made the question the study of his life. The fourth was a gentleman who was for twelve years employed in the Indian Immigration Department in Trinidad, and afterwards for eighteen years as Trinidad Emigration Agent in India. The fifth witness was Sir Daniel Morris, for ten years Imperial Commissioner of Agriculture for the West Indies, who has had exceptional opportunities of testing and observing the relative capabilities of negro and Indian labourers. The sixth was the Member for Sunderland, Mr. Summerbell, who has represented in the other House the views of the Trinidad Working Men's Association, and who was good enough to give us a very clear statement of those views, and to suggest names of witnesses who might give evidence in support of them. The seventh witness was the Governor of the Straits Settlements.
I hope, therefore, your Lordships will think that the Committee are casting their net wide enough. They are not limiting themselves to official witnesses, and I do not anticipate any difficulty in getting the necessary evidence. If any point arose on which it was difficult to obtain complete and exhaustive evidence by examination here, I suppose it would be our duty to report to the Secretary of State and to suggest that an examination should be made by properly-qualified persons on the spot. I lay particular stress upon the words "properly - qualified "persons," because I do not think that a short visit to a Colony by any one not properly qualified to take such evidence would be of any great value.
As regards Mauritius, it is undoubtedly true that between the years 1830 and 1907 the population was about quadrupled, and that whereas the non-Indian population only increased from about 97,000 to 112,000 the Indian population rose to 260,000. Of these 260,000 only 62,000 were actual immigrants, the rest being descendants of previous immigrants; and of the Indian population 102,000 were employed in 1907 on the sugar estates, as contrasted with 13,000 slaves in 1830, who were classed as farm labourers. In 1830 the export of

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sugar, which is the staple produce of the island, was about 68,000,000 1bs., worth £525,000; while in 1906 the export was about 380,000,000 1bs., and its value, notwithstanding the fall in the price of sugar, was estimated at £2,500,000. Therefore whilst the population had quadrupled, the export of sugar may be said to have quintupled. One cannot read these figures without perceiving that Indian immigration has been of enormous service is developing the resources of the island.
There is considerable difficulty in drawing conclusions from the vital statistics, because they are so greatly affected by sudden epidemics of malaria, causing the death rate to increase from about thirty to forty or even more per 1,000. Again, the town population has a disproportionate mortality. In 1902 the death rate for the whole of Mauritius was thirty-four per 1,000, but for Port Louis the death rate was fifty-three per 1,000. Until effective measures are taken for further sanitation in the towns the town population must be subject to a disproportionate death rate; and it is the Creole population which is more addicted to employment in the towns, whilst the Indian population is more employed in the country. That fact has an important bearing on the proportions of the two populations. In recent years, however, the increase of the Indian population has slackened while that of the non-Indian inhabitants has slightly risen. From 1901 to 1907 the population only increased by about 3,300, of which the non-Indians account for 1,300. I think, therefore, that the disappearance of the non-Indian population is not quite so near at hand as Sir Graham Bower seemed to apprehend.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY or STATE FOR WAR (LORD LUCAS)My Lords, this is one of those Bills which have to be passed before a certain date. It is necessary that this Bill should become law by the end of the present month, and
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  therefore as time is running rather short, we had to put down the Second Reading without giving what I think the House would consider sufficient notice. I am afraid that the putting down of the Second Reading for to-day must have been rather inconvenient to the House, and therefore I would suggest that this stage should be taken formally, and that such discussion as may be necessary should take place on the Committee stage. I would then, if the House wished, make a general statement on the proposals contained in the Bill. If your Lordships agree, I propose to take the Committee stage on Monday, thereby allowing more time for noble Lords to consider the contents of the Bill.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read2a (Lord Lucas.)
  THE MARQUESS or LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I am glad the noble Lord who represents the War Office made an apology to the House for the shortness of the notice which has been given of the Second Reading of this Bill. I quite understand that, in the circumstances, the War Office should desire to press the Bill forward, but I have no doubt that had it been possible for longer notice to be given the attendance of Peers interested in military matters would have been a great deal larger than it is this afternoon. The Bill is by no means the formal Army (Annual) Bill to which we are used. It contains, as the noble Lord well knows, a considerable number of entirely new proposals, and although the Bill itself is in appearance a short and simple measure it is quite clear, if you look closely at it, that owing to the number of existing provisions which it repeals its effect is much more far-reaching than one would at first suppose. To understand the intricacy of the Bill you have to look at the Memorandum which the War Office has very properly laid upon the Table, in which the repealed provisions of the law are enumerated. That is a Memorandum which covers nearly sixteen pages of closely-printed matter. I am also glad that to the Bill itself is attached a short resume of its principal provisions. Some of them are, at first sight, rather of an alarming character. I mean, for example, the provision from which we learn that the bulk of the powers now enjoyed by the Secretary of State for War are to be transferred to the Army Council; but I understand that what is intended really is to bring the law

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  into conformity with the practice which has arisen, and which, in fact, has prevailed ever since the Army Council came into existence, and that there is no intention of depriving the Secretary of State for War of any part of that full responsibility which now rests upon him for everything that is done at the War Office.
  LORD LUCASHear, hear.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEI am glad to have obtained the assent of my noble friend to that. With regard to other proposals in the Bill, I have no doubt that the suggestion of the noble Lord the Under-Secretary is one which will be for the convenience of the House, and that we had better discuss the details of the Bill when we go into Committee. There is, I notice, an important provision dealing with billeting. as to which I would only say at present that I can quite understand that, in cases of emergency such as those which the Bill contemplates, it should be necessary to provide the military authorities with powers considerably in excess of any which now belong to them. The same may be said of the clause under which power is taken to impress vehicles of all kinds. As to provisions of that sort, all I will say is that I believe the people of this country are entirely ready to submit to any sacrifice of convenience and to accept any exceptional and abnormal arrangements which may be required in the interests
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  of the efficiency of the military forces of the Crown, provided the circumstances are really circumstances of emergency such as those which the framers of the Bill have in contemplation. I certainly desire to raise no objection to the further progress of the Bill. I hope the noble Lord will not put down the Committee stage until the beginning of next week.
  LORD LUCASIf it will meet the convenience of the House, I propose, as I have said, to put the Committee stage down for Monday next.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE EARL OF CREWEMy Lords, as there is no business on the Paper for to-morrow, I move that the House do adjourn, except for judicial business, until Monday next.
Moved, That the House do adjourn, except for judicial business, until Monday next.—(The Earl of Crewe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, till to-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.