Lords Sitting of 27 May 1908

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Holderness Water Bill (Petition for additional Provision).—The Order of Monday last referring the Examiners certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders to the Standing Orders Committee, discharged.
North Eastern Railway Bill; Blaydon and Ryton Water (Transfer) Bill.—The King's consent signified; and Bills reported, with Amendments.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill [H. L.].—.Reported, with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill [H. L.]—Reported, with an Amendment, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill [H. L.]—Reported, without Amendment, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Northern Assurance Company Bill [H.L.]; Great Northern, Piccadilly, and Brompton Railway Bill [H.L.]; Wathupon-Dearne Urban District Council Gas Bill [H.L.], now Wath and Bolton Gas Board Bill [H.L.].—Reported, with Amendments.
Cheshire Lines Committee Bill.—Reported, without Amendment.
Honourable Artillery Company Bill [H.L.].—Read 2a.
Southwell District Gas Bill; Camborne Water Bill.—Read 2a, and committed.
Conway and Colwyn Bay Joint Water Board Bill.—Read 3a, with the Amendments; and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill [H.L.]—Committed.
Leicester Corporation Bill.—Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Loch Leven Water Power Order Confirmation Bill.—Read 3a (according to order) and passed.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Schools in boroughs and urban districts in England and Wales containing only one public elementary school; schools in boroughs, urban districts, and rural parishes in England and Wales, in which there is more than one public elementary school, but only one available either for boys, or for girls, or for infants.
  IMPORTS AND EXPORTS.
  Tables showing for each of the years 1900–1907, the estimated value of the imports and exports of the United Kingdom at the prices prevailing in 1900, with an introductory memorandum (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper [Cd. 3546], 1907).
  HISTORICAL MANUSCRIPTS (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Calendar of the manuscripts of the Marquess of Ormonde, K. P., preserved at Kilkenny Castle. New series, Vol. 5.

  NATAL.
  Further correspondence relating to native affairs in Natal (in continuation of [Cd. 3998], May 1908).
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  MOTOR CAR ACTS, 1896, AND 1903.
  Regulation as to the restriction of the driving of motor cars on part of a certain highway situate within the parish of Alfriston, in the county of East Sussex, made by the Local Government Board under Section 6 of the Act of 1896, and Section 8 of the Act of 1903.
  Regulation as to the restriction of the driving of motor cars on the highway known as Barge Walk, extending from Kingston Bridge to Hampton Court Bridge, in the county of Middlesex, made by the Local Government Board under Section 6 of the Act of 1896, and Section 8 of the Act of 1903.
  Regulation as to the registration of motor cars made by the Local Government Board under Section 6 of the Act of 1896, and Section 7 of the Act of 1903: Merthyr Tydfil (County Borough).—For assigning index mark to county borough.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1888.
  Thirteen orders under Section 57 of the Act, as confirmed by the Local Government Board, of the following county and county borough councils:—
  Anglesey.—For constituting part of the parish of Llanbadrig a new parish to be named the parish of Careglefn.
  Durham.—For uniting the parishes of Darlington and Harrogate Hill to form the parish of Darlington.
  Hertford.—(a) For uniting the parish of Letchworth (except Letchworth Detached), the parish of Norton, and part of the parish of Willian, to form the parish of Letchworth; and (b) for transferring Letchworth Detached to the parish of Knebworth.
  Northumberland.—For uniting the parishes of Coxlodge and South Gosforth to form the parish of Gosforth.
  Southampton.—For transferring part of the parish of Hound to the parish of Bursledon.
  Surrey.—For uniting the parishes of Christ Church, Holy Trinity, Guildford, Saint Mary's, Guildford, Saint Nicolas, Stoke, and the Friary, to form the parish of Guildford.
  Surrey.—For converting the parish of Merton into the urban district of Merton.
  Surrey.—For transferring the parish of Horsell from the rural district of Chertsey to the urban district of Woking.
  Surrey.—For amending the order converting the parish of Merton into the urban district of Merton.
  Tynemouth (County Borough).—For uniting the parishes of Chirton, Culler-coats, North Shields, Preston, and Tynemouth, to form the parish of Tynemouth.
  Westmoreland.—For uniting the parishes of Appleby and Bongate to form the parish of Appleby.
  Wilts.—For defining the boundaries of the parishes of Easton and Wooton Rivers
  Yorkshire, West Riding of.—For converting the township of Garforth into the urban district of Garforth.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PORT OF LONDON BILL.
  Leave given to the Joint Committee to hear parties interested by themselves, their counsel, agents, and witnesses, so far as the Committee think fit: The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered except to members of the Committee, and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit until further order. (No. 85.)

  THE TERRITORIAL FORCE.
  LORD NEWTON: My Lords, on behalf of Lord Wemyss, who is unable to be present, I beg to put to the Undersecretary of State for War the Questions standing in the name of my noble friend on the Paper, viz.:—(1) What is the number of men fixed for the Territorial Force; (2) If, as is believed, the number of the said Force is not to exceed 300,000 men, why did the Secretary for War originally "pray" the Volunteers to give him "700,000 to 900,000 men" to form the base of his Army Cone; (3) When does he expect the new Territorial Force to be complete; and how many have already joined it; (4) Of the Force, when complete, what proportion of the men composing it may be reckoned upon as being twenty years of age and upwards; (5) What is the minimum age of the men serving in neighbouring Continental Armies; (6) What will be the normal annual period of training of the Territorial recruits and of the whole Territorial Force; (7) What number of men of the Territorial Force so trained shall we be able to put in the field for the defence of Great Britain after deducting men under twenty years of age, normal casualties, and the forces necessary for the defence of Ireland and the garrisoning of our fortified dockyards and forts in Great Britain, Ireland, and the Channel Islands; (8) When and within what period of time could the Territorial Force be mobilised fit in all respects to take the field after the order for mobilisation has been given; (9) Will

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  this Territorial Force realise and give practical effect to the Resolution unanimously passed by the Lords—
  "That our land defences should at all times be such that no nation would ever attempt in any form a hostile landing on our shores."
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord LUCAS): My Lords, in reply to the first Question, the numbers fixed for the Territorial Force are 11,895 officers and 302,199 non-commissioned officers and men. With regard to the second Question, it refers, no doubt, to a speech made by Mr. Haldane at Newcastle on 15th September, 1906, in which my right hon. friend said:—
  "If we had sufficient enthusiasm we might get into the field and manage to maintain an Army of 700,000, 800,000, or 900,000 men. The thing was within compass."
  Mr. Haldane subsequently explained this in the House of Commons, when he said he was speaking of an extremely exceptional and unlikely case. He never intended to maintain or attempt to maintain a force of anything approaching 900,000 men. But he claimed that in the organisation of the force we should have at hand the machinery of expansion whereby, should a great emergency arise and the national enthusiasm be thereby aroused, there would not be the slightest difficulty in raising 900,000 men.
  With regard to the third Question, the last figure I am able to give the noble Lord is the number of non-commissioned officers and men transferred up to 1st May, namely, 106,092. We have not got the figure as to officers yet. I hope to have the figures up to 1st June very shortly. I should not like to make any forecast as to when the Force will be complete, but if the present rate is continued it should be complete in about three months. The Question as to age I am unable to answer, as the ages of Volunteers joining has never been included in any return. But we have the ages of the Yeomanry. Out of 23,919 Yeomanry, there were 3,354 men under twenty. It is not expected that the new scheme will make much difference in the age of men who join.
  As to the age in Continental armies, though the men generally join as conscripts, they are allowed to volunteer earlier so as to get their term of service over. In France, Germany, Spain and
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  Turkey, the ages are: Conscripts twenty, Volunteers eighteen, though in France Volunteers may come in at seventeen in time of war; in Austria-Hungary, Conscripts twenty and three quarters and Volunteers seventeen; in Russia, twenty-one and nineteen; in Italy, twenty and seventeen; in Portugal, twenty and sixteen; and in Belgium, nineteen and sixteen. As to the normal annual period of training for the Territorial Force, the drills required for recruits are: Artillery and Engineers forty-five the first year, and in the Cavalry and Infantry forty; and for trained men, twenty in the Artillery, fifteen in the Engineers, and ten in the Cavalry and Infantry. The period of camp is from eight to fifteen days, except in the case of the Cavalry, for which force it is eight to eighteen days, the general officer commanding deciding as to how long, between the minimum and the maximum, the different units should go out. There are besides extra courses for officers and noncommissioned officers laid down in the leaflet issued on the training of the Force.
  LORD RAGLAN: Those are not compulsory.
  LORD LUCAS: They are voluntary, but officers have to go through some of them before promotion. In addition to these courses, further facilities will be given for longer courses, which may be taken advantage of. In his next Question the noble Lord asks for what amounts to a disclosure of mobilisation plans, and that is information which has never been given. I might point out, however, that if you were mobilising the Territorial Force it would not be at all necessary to exclude men under twenty years of age, though they are excluded for foreign service in climates like India on the ground of health. There is nothing to prevent men under twenty years of age taking the field in this country if they are passed as fit.
  With regard to the next Question, it is hoped that, when arrangements which are being pushed forward are complete, it will be possible to mobilise the Territorial Force instantly, the moment the whole of the Regular Reserves have been called out; but the Force will require a period of war training after mobilisation, as has always been said, before it can be

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  considered fit to take the field against trained foreign troops. As to the last Question, the Territorial Force forms a most important part of the organisation of the military forces of the country, and will, undoubtedly, in the opinion of the Government, give effect to the Resolution quoted.
  LORD NEWTON: My Lords, the statement which the Under-Secretary of State for War has made is not a long one, but it is one of considerable importance, and I trust that its significance will not be missed by the House. In fact, I do not think I am exaggerating when I express the opinion that the points included in these Questions, and in the noble Lord's reply, are of considerably more importance than the question which was discussed with great force the other day, and which was, in effect, whether or not a reduction in the Regular Artillery was a desirable thing. That, no doubt, was an important matter, but it was not a vital matter. The question whether we have an adequate national force standing behind the Regular Army is, I maintain, a vital matter, and one upon which the future of this country may possibly depend.
  We know, from statements that have been made from time to time, that the formation of this Territorial Force is regarded by the Government as an experiment of a somewhat hazardous nature. I would ask them, in view of the reply which has just been given, whether they are of opinion that the experiment appears likely to prove a success. To my mind it is a venture of a singularly unpromising character. The inducements to undertake a venture of this kind are the prospects of gain, but in this case there is no question of gain at all. It is a question of endeavouring to get back what you have already parted with. The Secretary of State for War has parted with the Volunteers, a force larger in numbers than the Territorial Force he is seeking to obtain, and he is now, with his colleagues, endeavouring by every possible means, and with the assistance of his political opponents, to induce these men to re-enlist, with what results we have just learned.
  I do not wish to discuss this either in a party spirit or at length, but I should like to be permitted to put in a few sentences what I believe to be an impartial
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  view of the military situation. After the South African War was concluded, a Royal Commission sat, under the Presidency of Lord Elgin, and came to the conclusion that the one thing which was of absolute necessity to this country was an expansion of our military system outside the Regular Forces of the Crown. Where, I ask, is this expansion? I may well ask. Instead of expansion we have contraction—contraction of the Regular Army and contraction of the Auxiliary Forces under their new designation of the Territorial Force. It was with this in his mind that the present Secretary of State for War, in spite of what the noble Lord opposite has said, went about the country telling everybody, wherever he got an opportunity, that unless we could produce a nation in arms we were practically doomed, and he asked them to give him anything from 700,000 to 900,000 men. He found, as was to be expected, first of all that he could not get the money from his own side; and, in the second place, that the country would not give him the men. The result is that his 900,000 men have been whittled down to 302,000 and this number has not been asked for on consideration of military strategy or any other necessity. The 302,000 represent the hypothetical maximum which you can possibly obtain under the obsolete voluntary system.
  The noble Lord has told us that of the 302,000 only 106,000 have been obtained. I do not suppose that this meagre result has made much impression upon the Secretary of State for War, because he had already committed himself to the fact that he was, so to speak, prepared to go to allotment on a 30 per cent. subscription. The noble Lord expressed confidence of a rapid increase in these numbers. But what reason did he show for that confidence? The noble Lord abstained from answering some of the Questions on the Paper, and I notice, also, that his chief has carefully abstained from asking what would have been, no doubt, an extremely inconvenient question, with regard to the age and the quality of the men who are enlisting in the Territorial Force.
  LORD LUCAS: The ages of the men have to appear on the attestation forms, but as there are over 100,000 forms and they only came in quite recently, we have

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  not yet got out the statement of their ages. But their ages are being taken.
  LORD NEWTON: I hope we shall have fuller information on that point later. But, upon the average, this Army is considerably younger than any Continental Army. There is another important question—namely, how many of these men have engaged for one year only? My information is that something like 90 per cent. of the total force have engaged for one year only. Whether, in view of the information that has been elicited from the Under-Secretary, this state of things gives practical effect to the Resolution which was passed by this House, I will leave your Lordships to decide. But, in addition to the facts which have been disclosed by the Answer, let me point out, what everybody knows, that the Regular Army has already been largely reduced. I do not wish to enlarge on this point, but I do desire, because I think it is most important, to draw attention to two expressions of opinion which have emanated from the Front Bench during the course of the last few days. One was the opinion of the Undersecretary himself that the preparation and effective training of the Territorial Force was not to be looked for in time of peace, but was to be provided for when, to use his own words, we were suffering from the war fever and were engaged in a race against time; and the second was the declaration to the effect that it was never contemplated that more than two-fifths of the Regular Army should leave these shores until the Territorial Force had been sufficiently trained. That being so, I should like to ask the Government what becomes of their expeditionary force?
  To put it plainly, we are to be placed in this position, that the Fleet apparently is to be chained to our shores, and the greater proportion of the Regular Army is to be bottled up in this country until such time as the Territorial Army is trained sufficiently to' meet Continental troops in the field. I think these admissions and statements speak for themselves, and it is quite unnecessary for me to elaborate the case any further. But it does seem to me, in view of these facts and admissions, that it is really almost intolerable that the Secretary of State for War should go
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  about at this moment boasting that his scheme of reform is one of the greatest successes of modern days. He has achieved success in a certain sense. His success lies in this, that he has done what few people have done—he has succeeded in getting the country to take words for facts and to substitute shams for realities. When the emergency arises, and when, under the delirium of war fever, we are engaged in a race against time, I shall be happy to think that I have had no part in responsibility for the military situation.
  LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord why he cannot give us the number of officers The chairmen of the County Associations were requested to send in their lists before 15th April, and I believe the majority did. They were told that the lists should be in by that date in order that the officers might be gazetted on 15th April, and appear in the Army List in May. I cannot see why the number of officers cannot be given. I should like to ask, further, whether great difficulty has not arisen on account of these officers not being legally entitled to attest recruits, owing to their not having been gazetted. I am afraid that in this way a good many recruits have been attested illegally.
  THE EARL OF ERROLL: My Lords, in his reply to the eighth Question standing on the Paper, the noble Lord the Under-Secretary said the Territorial Force would be able to mobilise instantly. I should like to inquire whether arrangements have been made for the horses which would be necessary for mobilisation. Speaking from memory, I think the number of horses required on the mobilisation of the Regular Home Forces is 53,000, and I should like to know from the noble Lord whether, beyond this, any arrangement has been made for the horses necessary to enable the Territorial Force to mobilise instantly.
  THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: My Lords, I also have a small Question to put to the noble Lord. I understood him to say that there were certain extra courses laid down which officers would have to pass before promotion. As there seems to be some little doubt on this point, I

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  should like to have it clearly stated whether, in the case of those officers who have undertaken to raise new units, and who naturally in the case of a battery of Field Artillery would take the rank of major, that rank will be allowed to stand, and how long those officers will be given before being compelled to pass the examination?
  LORD RAGLAN: I should like to ask the noble Lord whether it is the fact that the Territorial Force will have less training than the old Volunteers. My recollection is that the Volunteers did sixty recruits drills, with twelve annual drills for trained men. In the case of the Territorial Force I gather that the drills will be: Recruits, 45; trained soldiers, 10.
  LORD LUCAS: I think the numbers are forty and ten. At any rate, the periods have not been altered except in the case of the Artillery, and there they have been increased. Moreover, the whole of the Territorial Force can now have a fortnight's training, whereas in the case of the Volunteers only a certain number of selected Infantry battalions received more than eight days. In reply to Lord Dartmouth, I may say that it is not our intention to compel officers who are raising new units to qualify before they are gazetted. I am afraid I cannot state off-hand how long they will be given to pass the qualifying examination, but in this matter every consideration will be shown.
  THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: I have already asked two Questions on this point. The Answer I received to one Question was that the period would be a year, and the Answer to the other was two years. We should like to have definitely stated the actual time which will be allowed to these officers to qualify, and I will put a Question on the Paper on that point.
  LORD LUCAS: As to the Question put to me by Lord Erroll, I may say that the whole question of horses is under consideration at the present moment. It is impossible for me to tell the House what exactly is being done, but I can assure the noble Earl that the Army Council fully realise how important it is that it should be possible for the provision of horses for the Regular Army on
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  mobilisation and also for the Territorial Army to proceed simultaneously. We know that there are sufficient horses in the country to mobilise both the Regular Army and the Territorial Force, and we hope to be able to work out some scheme whereby the process of satisfying the requirements of the Regular Army in the matter of horses will not interfere with the horsing of the Territorial Force on mobilisation. With regard to Lord Heneage's Question, the returns were not all in by the date at which they were originally asked for, and there has in consequence been a certain amount of delay in gazetting officers. They have, however, transferred in large numbers, and we are very satisfied with the way in which they have come in. The names of many thousands are being prepared for the Gazette, and the mere clerical work is occupying a great deal of time. We hope, however, to have them all gazetted very shortly. As to officers not gazetted being unable to attest recruits, I speak with some uncertainty, but I think the officers retain their old commissions in the meanwhile, and therefore would be, I think, legally entitled to attest.
  LORD HENEAGE: I can assure the noble Lord that the point was thoroughly discussed at a meeting of the Lincolnshire Territorial Association, and two of the commanding officers, who are very able lawyers, were quite certain that the officers could not attest.
  THE MARQUESS OF HERTFORD: I should like to ask when the question of uniform, and especially the walking-out dress, will be settled. There are something like 2,000 men already enrolled in the Birmingham battalions, and it will be quite impossible to get them clothed in time for camp unless the question is speedily determined.
  LORD LUCAS: An announcement will be made on the subject almost immediately.

  EMPLOYMENT OF OLD SOLDIERS.
  THE EARL OF CARLISLE: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will maintain in future the custom which has been in force for nearly thirty years, of appointing meritorious

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  old soldiers to the staff of the National Galleries. This Question relates to the posts in the National Gallery and the Tate Gallery, which number about fifty. These appointments are under the Patronage Secretary of the Treasury. Formerly it was the custom to appoint to these positions butlers and footmen of Cabinet Ministers. But so much insubordination and chaos resulted that in the year 1882, at the request of the National Gallery Board, the Government sent a competent non-commissioned officer to establish discipline there. This appointment was so satisfactory that the Board requested the Government to continue in future to give the appointments to meritorious old soldiers; but this principle has not been followed in every case. The Patronage Secretary has occasionally reverted to the old system, and I find that in the last ten years, out of twenty-six appointments, twenty-two have been given to old soldiers. When the principle of appointing old soldiers was for the time departed from I interviewed the Patronage Secretary, at the request of the National Gallery Board, and he promised that in future the principle should be strictly adhered to. I understood that that promise applied to the office and not merely to the individual, but the last appointment that has been made is so contrary to that practice that I should like to ask the future intentions of the Government regarding it. I find that the qualifications of the candidate who was given the last appointment by the Patronage Secretary are that he is the son of the late Prime Minister's coachman, that he was for some time a helper in the stables, and that he had since been employed in a brewery. I do not think that those qualifications should have outweighed the claims of a number of old soldiers with excellent characters who were applying for the post, and therefore I wish to ask the Government whether they will maintain the principle of giving these appointment to these men.
  LORD DENMAN: My Lords, I can assure the noble Earl that the claims of ex-soldiers and sailors are being carefully considered in connection with these appointments. A large proportion of the vacancies have been filled by them in the past and are likely in the future to be so filled. Since the present Govern-
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  ment came into office I understand there have been eight vacancies. Three of them have been filled by Army men; one by a man who had formerly served in the Metropolitan Police, another in the Military Police, two by clerks, and one by a civilian. I am not aware that in the case of the last appointment it was a son of the coachman of the late Prime Minister who filled the vacancy, but if further information is desired on this point, I shall be happy to obtain it for the noble Earl.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am very glad that my noble friend on the cross benches has asked this Question, and I feel quite sure the Secretary of State for War will be grateful to him for having asked it. It is within my knowledge that one Secretary of State after another has had to fight this battle. We have always felt that one of the few things we could do to help recruiting was to have an understanding that every minor Government appointment which an old soldier was fitted to fill should be earmarked for an old soldier. I have often experienced the difficulty which I am afraid the present Secretary of State for War has had with his colleagues. My colleagues always in principle professed the utmost readiness to meet my wishes; but I am bound to say I had the greatest difficulty in preventing them occasionally from smuggling in those faithful retainers, one of whom on this occasion appears to have insinuated himself into the National Gallery. But I do hope it will be laid down for the future, not that as Lord Denman said, a large proportion of these appointments should be given to well qualified old soldiers, but that the whole of them shall be so given. They are appointments for which old soldiers are perfectly fitted; they have been filled up by old soldiers to the satisfaction of the trustees, and there is no sort of reason why they should not all be given to men of that description.

  RIFLE RANGE RENTS.
  LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, I rise to ask the Under Secretary of State for War by whose authority the Accountants Department of the War Office have refused to sanction the payment of the yearly rents due for rifle ranges in Lincolnshire in 1907–1908; and to state

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  why the Territorial Association should be asked to pay rent for the use of ranges during a period before they were legally constituted in 1907–1908. I think a few words of explanation of this most extraordinary question are necessary. In Lincolnshire we had three Volunteer battalions, and as they were reduced to two the colonel of one of the battalions had to retire and the adjutant was compelled to go back to his regiment. The consequence was that they desired as speedily as possible to square up the accounts for last year. Among the items which they paid, was, as usual, eight guineas each for the use of two ranges during the military year 1907–1908. To their astonishment the accounts were sent back with these two items disallowed, and they were told that they were to get the sixteen guineas from the Territorial Association. I received information of this a few days ago, and I refused to allow the matter to go before the Finance Committee because I did not think it a proper payment to be made out of the Territorial funds. The Accountant-General was asked why payment was disallowed, and he gave as his reason that Lady Day was 6th April, and that as this was subsequent to 1st April the Volunteers had expired and the Territorial funds were liable for the payment of this amount. I thought this a most extraordinary reason to give. One might just as well say that a person who took a house on 1st April for the season was bound to pay the previous quarter's rates because the demand was sent in after he had taken the house. I cannot think that the Secretary of State will for a moment countenance this quibble, if not sharp practice. I have raised this question because I think it is one of some consequence. This is the first case, but unless attention is called to it it will be made a precedent. I am bound to say that I think the amount of money allowed to the Associations is not anything like sufficient for what we shall find necessary to meet our own expenses; and if we are to have the same amount of correspondence from the War Office and from the staff of the command as has taken place recently it will be quite impossible for one secretary to do the work. As to the payment in question, I do not think the auditor appointed by an Association to look into the accounts at the end of the financial year and to see how the
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  Association had spent their funds under the financial provisions of the Memorandum sent out in March, would pass an expenditure for rent for the use of ranges during a period before the Association was legally constituted.
  LORD LUCAS: My Lords, this case is not really so black as the noble Lord has painted it. It is a mere matter of bookkeeping, and unless it was done in this way you would have a somewhat complicated sum to work out as to how much rent was due by the Association and how much was due by the Volunteer corps. There was also the fact that there might be considerable difficulty owing to the accounts not being in when the Volunteer accounts were being squared up. It was, therefore, decided, in order to simplify matters, that any charge for ranges or other matters which fell due after March 31st should be paid by the County Associations. The County Associations will not suffer in any way, for any expenditure not coming within the year for which they are responsible will be paid back to them, and as the Associations are entitled to draw money from the War Office on account, it will not be necessary to wait till the end of the financial year in order to recoup themselves.
  LORD HENEAGE: It simply comes to this, that we are asked to pay out of our funds for the current year debts incurred last year, and which ought to have been paid by the State last year. Why are we to advance this money and to wait to receive it until after the auditor has passed the accounts twelve months hence?
  LORD LUCAS: This is a mere matter of book-keeping, and as I have explained, the Lincolnshire County Association can draw money from the War Office on account. I can assure the noble Lord that, whatever items in the Association's expenditure may possibly be questioned in the future, this certainly will not be one of them.

  ASSIZES AND QUARTER SESSIONS BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD ALVERSTONE: My Lords, I rise to move the Second Reading of this Bill,

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  the object of which is to dispense with the attendance of jurors at assizes and quarter sessions, and with the holding of assizes and quarter sessions in certain cases. It has sometimes happened, particularly in the Principality of Wales, that twenty-four grand jurors, and generally forty or fifty petty jurors, have been summoned and kept about the town probably for a whole day at great in convenience when there have been no prisoners for trial. I have been asked by more than one high sheriff whether arrangements could not be made in the event of there being no prisoners for trial, although there may be other business, that jurors should not be summoned. After consultation with Mr. Justice Channell and other learned Judges, I provide in the Bill that if, in the case of assizes, there is no prisoner committed for trial within five days, then notice should be sent to the jurors that they need not attend. Of course, if there was other business to be transacted by the grand jurors they could meet. It only is necessary to provide for what may happen during the five days. Where a prisoner may be committed for trial, the Bill provides that he can be committed to a future quarter sessions of the county or a future assizes. If a speedy trial is desired the prisoner can be committed for trial to an adjoining quarter sessions or assizes. My attention has been called by one noble Lord to the fact that it would be very inconvenient if many cases were sent from one county to a neighbouring quarter sessions, but I can assure the House that it is only intended that power to commit to another sessions should be given during the period of five days. If that is not quite clear I shall be pleased to make it so in Committee. It is very rarely indeed that there are no prisoners at an assizes. In my experience it has only happened once in ten years, and that was in the City of York and had nothing to do with the county assizes of York. But every now and again in North and South Wales it does happen that there are no prisoners for trial. Therefore I provide that the Bill shall apply to assizes. With regard to indictment which may be presented independently, of previous proceedings before magistrates the Bill provides that five days notice should be given of the intention. I am sure the Bill if passed
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  will relieve a considerable number of small farmers and tradespeople in the country. I need hardly say that this is not in any way a party measure. I hope His Majesty's Government will support the Bill, and if the clauses do not carry out what I have stated to be their object I will gladly consider Amendments in Committee.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Alverstone.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord LOREBURN): My Lords, the principle which the most noble Lord has recommended, namely, that jurors shall not be unnecessarily summoned when there is no business for them to do, is one so eminently reasonable that it does not seem to require much commendation. As to the machinery of the Bill I have no criticism to offer, but if a little time is allowed the Home Office may have some questions to ask, or some Amendments to suggest. But there is nothing at all in the principle of the Bill but what I most heartily agree to.
  LORD BELPER: My Lords, I am in entire sympathy with the Bill which the noble and learned Lord has introduced. I happen to-have been a chairman of quarter sessions for a great many years, and it has frequently been my lot to try to explain to jurymen that they were not called together unnecessarily, and that I had no option except to call them. That is always a very unpleasant duty for a chairman of quarter sessions to have to perform. It would, however, be extremely inconvenient that there should be many cases sent from one county to a neighbouring quarter sessions, and I am glad that point has been made clear. It may be necessary to make some provision for expense that might be incurred by neighbouring sessions in this connection. Subject to these remarks I cordially support the Bill, which, I think, will do away with a considerable cause of grumbling among grand and petty jurors.
  On Question, agreed to.
  Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday, the 16th day of June next.

  TERRITORIAL ARMY RECRUITING.
  THE EARL OF MOUNT EDGCUMBE: My Lords, I rise to ask the Undersecretary of State for War how many units in each arm of the Territorial Force have been recognised as having enlisted 30 per cent. of their establishment; how many men have enlisted in the Yeomanry; and in the case of the Infantry how many have enlisted for four years, and how many for only one year. I think it will be of interest to have this information. In the case of the Yeomanry, which I am very glad are to retain their time honoured designation, I imagine they would have very little difficulty in keeping up their numbers, for they are much less affected than the old Volunteers by the new change. As to my last Question, if there are a great number of old Volunteers who have enlisted for only one year, as I think there probably are, it will show that they are not altogether satisfied with the terms offered to them, and have only re-enlisted tentatively. This will, no doubt, have an effect upon recruiting from outside. Hitherto the chief recruiting agents have certainly been the men themselves, but a man who is sufficiently doubtful to be only willing to join tentatively for one year will not feel justified in asking another man to join for four years. I believe the chief objections to re-engaging are the liabilities to penal fines, the amount of which is uncertain, and compulsory camp with an insufficient allowance, especially in the case of married men who are not noncommissioned officers. I have always felt that these objections might be removed, or, at any rate, modified, without any detriment to the service or additional cost to the country. In this respect there is a great difference between a farmer who enlists as a trooper in the Yeomanry and an artisan who enlists as a private in the Infantry. I believe I am correct in saying the man who joins the Yeomanry and has a horse of his own win receive during his period of training, and including the cost of his own food and that of his horse, 11s. 8d. per day, whereas the working man who joins the Infantry cannot reckon upon getting more than 1s. 6d. or 1s. 9d. per day, although he may be giving up a week's wages of 3s., 4s., or 5s. per day. That may be all very well for a youngster, but it is very hard on a man who has to pay house rent and keep his wife as well
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  during the training. The noble Lord the Under-Secretary admitted last night, with reference to the 1s. fee for medical examination, that the plan would not work unless a large number of medical men could be reckoned upon to give their services in the matter gratuitously. I do not know whether any similar voluntary assistance is anticipated in regard to an increase of the camp allowance. No doubt there may be many patriotic people who would be very glad to contribute in order to improve the position of these men in camp, and I think that under the old Volunteer system that might have been possible; but I believe it would be very dangerous to tempt men to enlist under the present system by any hope of additional assistance procured in this way, for a voluntary fund could not be regarded as permanent.
  LORD LUCAS: My Lords, up to 5th May we had recognised forty-eight Yeomanry units out of fifty-six; 287 Artillery units out of 369; sixty-nine Engineering units out of 117; 172 Infantry units out of 204; twenty-seven Army Service Corps units out of seventy; and forty-five Medical units out of eighty-one. Up to 1st May the number of men enlisted in the Yeomanry was 12,044, and in the Infantry 72,179; of those men 8,520 had joined for the full term of four years. As to this last figure, we do not hold a gloomy view, because no pressure was put upon the men to join for the whole term of four years; they were given the offer that they might go into the Territerial Force for a year and see how they liked it. We have every confidence that the men will join again, and, from what we have heard, the men who have joined and already done their camp service are likely to continue with the force. We have given up to 30th June for recruiting. The men are coming in very steadily, and the pick of them have already sent in their names. It is only in exceptional cases where there is any hanging back. The Yeomanry are coming in exceptionally well. Everything points to our having a large increase of present numbers by the end of next month. As to going into camp, it will rest with the general officer commanding to decide what is or is not a sufficient reason for absence, but there is no ground for supposing that men will be fined for

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  absenting themselves if they can produce a valid reason.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: Can the noble Lord give any idea as to when the special Order will be issued with reference to the formation of the new Irish Yeomanry? Our period of training is coming on shortly, and we are anxious to have all the rules and regulations.
  LORD LUCAS: The Order will be ready for publication very soon, but I am afraid I cannot tell the noble Earl exactly when.

AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS BILL [H.L.]
  SMALL HOLDINGS AND ALLOTMENTS BILL [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order); and Bills to be read 3a on Monday next.
  REGISTRATION BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  PROSECUTION OF OFFENCES (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.