Lords Sitting of 1 July 1908

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Ordersapplicable to the following Bill have been complied with: Liverpool Corporation (General Powers). The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the petition for an additional provision in the Ards and Bangor Railways Bill, ought to be dispensed with and leave given to the Committee on the Bill to insert the additional provision.
Read, and agreed to.
London County Council (Money) Bill, South West Suburban Water Bill.—Brought from the Commons, read la, and referred to the Examiners.
Educational Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Cornwall, &c.) Bill [H.L.].—(Swansea Orders No. 1 and No. 2); London County Council (General Powers) Bill; Manchester Corporation Bill; Burnley Corporation Bill; Central Ireland Electric Power Bill; Widnes Corporation Bill; Tyne Improvement Bill. Report from the Committee of Selection that the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills, viz.: E. Stradbroke, V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore) chairman, L. Dunboyne, L. Elphinstone, L. Hindlip; agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet on Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). The Amendments proposed by the Committees made.
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Standing Committee negatived. The report of Amendments to be received tomorrow.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). The Amendments proposed by the Committee made. Standing Committee negatived. The report of Amendments to be received tomorrow.
Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). The Amendments proposed by the Committees made. Standing Committee negatived. The report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.
Gas Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). The Amendments proposed by the Committee made. Standing Committee negatived. The report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). The Amendments proposed by the Committee made. Standing Committee negatived. The report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (London) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order). The Amendments proposed by the Committee made. Standing Committee negatived. The report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL RETURNS.
  No. 4020. Italy (Consular District of Genoa); No. 4051. Mexico (Consular District of Tampico); No. 4053. France (Consular District of Nice); No. 4054. Brazil; No. 4055. United States (Consular District of New Orleans); No. 4056. Turkey (Crete).
  COLONIES: ANNUAL.
  No. 562. Falkland Islands.

  TREATY SERIES (1908).
  No. 17. Convention between the United Kingdom and the United States of America, respecting the protection,

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  Preservation, and propagation of food fishes in the waters contiguous to the United States and the Dominion of Canada; signed at Washington, 11th April, 1908. (Ratifications exchanged at Washington, 4th June, 1908.)
  No. 18. Treaty between the United Kingdom and the United States of America, respecting the demarcation of the international boundary between the United States and the Dominion of Canada; signed at Washington, 11th April, 1908. Ratifications exchanged at Washington, 4th June, 1908.

  WAGES BOARDS AND INDUSTRIAL ARBITRATION (AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZELAND).
  Report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, by Ernest Aves, Esq., on the Wages Boards and Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Acts of Australia and New Zealand.
  SHOP HOURS ACT (AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND).
  Report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, by Ernest Aves, Esq., on the Acts for the regulation of hours of employment in shops in Australia and New Zealand.

  FACTORY AND WORKSHOPS.
  Annual Report of Chief Inspector of Factories and Workshops, for the year 1907. Report and statistics.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

NEW BILL.
  ENDOWED SCHOOLS (MASTERS) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to make provision with respect to the tenure of office of masters of endowed schools.—Was presented by the Lord Steward (E. Beauchamp); read 1a; to be printed, and to be read 2a on Tuesday next. (No. 120.)
COMPANIES CONSOLIDATION BILL [H.L.]
  POST OFFICE CONSOLIDATION BILL [H.L.]

    STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL [H.L.]
    Commons message considered (according to order). The Lord Balfour and
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    the Lord Faber added to the Joint Committee; a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith, and to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committe Room A. on Wednesday next at Two o'clock.

    ACCIDENTS IN PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR.
    LORD MUSKERRY LORD MUSKERRY rose to ask whether His Majesty's Government could furnish particulars concerning a series of accidents which recently befel the steamship "Bengore Head" in Portsmouth Harbour; if so, what was her draft of water at the time, and whether these accidents were attributable to the "Bengore Head" being in an unmanageable condition owing to a want of sufficient ballast.
    The noble Lord said: My Lords, before putting the Question that stands in my name, I would like to say a few words in connection with it. When I was advocating in this House the passing of the Light Load Line Bill I argued that the provision of a light load mark might very well be extended to, and enforced on, foreign vessels sailing in our waters, for this reason—that vessels that were not sufficiently ballasted were unmanageable under certain circumstances, and therefore not only a source of danger to themselves, but also to any other vessels that might be near. If my information is right, and this steamer was unmanageable through want of sufficient ballast, it is another proof that my contention is correct. I may say that I am not alone in my views as to the unseaworthiness through not being under proper control of these underballasted vessels. I think you will find that every sailor, or marine engineer, holds the same opinion. Had the "Bengore Head," as she might well have done, sunk one of His Majesty's ships, it would have meant a very serious pecuniary loss to the nation, to say nothing of the lives which might have been sacrificed.
    But what I specially want to do in connection with this Question is to enter an earnest protest against the callous indifference with which the safety of seamen's lives appears to be regarded by a Government Department. Where the vessels are carrying passengers, it is

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    true that every human precaution is taken; but this is not so when only the lives of their crews are concerned. Your Lordships have only to refer back to the pages of Hansard for the past ten years, and see from the replies that I have received when I have advocated precautionary measures for the safety of sailors' lives that they have been refused mainly from the point of view that shipowners would incur additional expense. Now I venture to say that if it were a question of taking precautions against loss of life on shore no Government, or Government Department, would dare to advance such an argument against them. Think if the "Bengore Head" instead of being in a harbour had been on a rocky lee shore, with a gale blowing; what poor chance there would have been for the lives of her crew? I again most emphatically protest against our seamen's lives being considered as second to any pecuniary interests whatever, and I am sure that in this I have the support and sympathy of your Lordships.
    LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: My Lords, I quite agree that if the accident to which the noble Lord alludes could be proved to have been due to the ship having been insufficiently ballasted, it would be an argument in favour of the establishment of a light load line; but, as a matter of fact, the information in the possession of the Board of Trade points in a precisely opposite direction. I think that my best course will be to read a statement prepared from several reports which have been made to the Board of Trade by, amongst others, the master of the ship, the principal officer of the Board of Trade on marine registry, and the Board of Trade surveyor at Southampton. I am informed that the steamship "Bengore Head" left the Government dockyard at Portsmouth at 2.30 p.m. on 13th June, in charge of a Trinity House pilot and assisted by a tug. When turning the north corner of the jetty the tug boat, owing to a violent squall, got out of position, and to avoid accident to his vessel the master of the tug boat threw off the tow rope, thus leaving the "Bengore Head" practically unmanageable, as, owing to the limited space between His Majesty's ships and the lack of room to manœuvre, it was impossible to make satisfactory use of
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    the ship's engines. The starboard anchor was at once let go, but, notwithstanding, the vessel drifted against H.M.S." Revenge" and afterwards did some slight damage to the torpedo net booms of H.M.S. "Vengeance." The draft of water of the "Bengore Head" at the time was 14 feet 11 inches aft, and I am advised that the accident was in no way attributable to the want of sufficient ballast, the propeller being well immersed.
    A NOBLE LORD: What was her tonnage?
    LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL: I think 1,600 tons.
    LORD ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, this question of the accident which befel the s.s. "Bengore Head" is far more an Admiralty question than a Board of Trade question. In the then existing conditions of wind and weather the vessel ought not to have been moved at all. The pilots who take our ships in and out of harbour do manage their vessels exceedingly well, and I look upon it as a great triumph that two years ago they brought in the whole of the French Fleet in one tide into Portsmouth harbour without any accident whatever. Supposing the "Bengore Head" had filled with water and remained aground off Blockhouse Point; owing to its position no ship could have got in or out of Portsmouth harbour, and if such a thing were to occur at a time of strained relations with a foreign Power it would be a serious matter. I think the Admiralty should have control of all shipping in Portsmouth Harbour in order to avoid what might prove a national danger, and I hope, therefore, that the Admiralty will take this matter into their consideration.

    THE POSITION OF THE MILITIA.
    THE DUKE OF BEDFORD: My Lords, I rise to ask the Lord Chancellor if, having regard to the following sections of the Militia Act of 1882, a Militiaman can during his term of service be appointed, transferred, or attached, without his consent, to any military body other than that to which he at present belongs, viz.:
    "Section 4, subsection 3. Subject to the provisions of any such order, a Secretary of

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    State may from time to time make, and when made revoke and vary, general or special regulations with respect to any matter with respect to which Her Majesty may make orders under this section.
    "Subsection 4. Provided that the said orders or regulations shall not—(a) affect or extend the term for which or the area within which a Militiaman is liable under the Militia Acts to serve; or (b) authorise a Militiaman when belonging to one corps to be transferred without his consent to another corps; or (c) where the corps of a Militiaman includes any battalion or other body of the Regular Forces, authorise him to be posted without his consent to that battalion or body.
    "Subsection 5. Where a Militiaman was enlisted or re-engaged before the date of any order or regulation under this Act, nothing in such order or regulation shall render him liable without his consent to be appointed, transferred, or attached to any military body to which he could not without his consent have been appointed, transferred, or attached, if the said order or regulation had not been made."
    By the whole of the Militia force the Act has always been read to mean that transfer without the men's consent was not possible. The question arises at the present moment in this way. As each Militia regiment completes its training the men have three alternatives—they may go to the Special Reserve, they may take a free discharge, or they may remain Militiamen until their period of service expires. In the last case they receive the non-training bounty but are not called out, though they remain subject to the Act of 1882 and to embodiment. The question, therefore, arises: If these men are called out after the Militia is abolished what are you going to do with them? It would appear necessary to attach them to some regiment of the Line, and I ask if that is possible without the men's consent.
    THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord LOREBURN): My Lords, I am not an authority on military matters, but my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War has desired that I should present the legal Answer to the noble Duke. The Question of the noble Duke raises the point as to what will be the position of a Militiaman who has not enlisted in the Special Reserve. Different considerations appear to apply in the case of a Militiaman belonging to a Militia unit which has been transferred to the Special Reserve by an Order in Council under Section 34 of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act, 1907, and in the case of a
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    Militiaman who belonged to one of the Militia units which have been disbanded. In the former case, by virtue of Section 34 (2) of the Act of 1907, the Militiaman becomes a Special Reservist for all purposes, except that the terms and conditions of service are those which were applicable to him whilst he was in the Militia, and not those applicable to Special Reservists. But the unit to which he belongs retains its identity and remains part of the same corps as that in which the Militia unit was previously included. In the latter case, the Militiaman ceased on the disbandment of the Militia unit to belong to any corps, but otherwise remains subject to the terms and conditions of his Militia service. Though, therefore, Section 4 of the Militia Act, 1882, continues to apply in each case, the result of its application will be different. In the case of the man belonging to the transferred unit he can be transferred or attached, without his consent, to any military body to which he could have been so transferred or attached whilst he was still in the Militia, and he could be called out for training or on permanent service with his unit, but the length of his training with the unit could not exceed that to which he was liable under the Militia Acts, and probably, in order to call him out on permanent service, it would be necessary to embody the Militia, as he would not be affected by a proclamation calling out the Army Reserve. With respect to the Militiaman belonging to the disbanded unit, it is clear that not belonging to any corps, he could not, unless the Militia were embodied at any rate, be transferred or attached to any military body without his consent. He could, however, be called up for annual training, and trained with a Special Reserve battalion, though not attached to that battalion. The only difference his not being attached to the battalion would make would be that he would not be bound by an order issued to the battalion unless specially named in the order. On embodiment of the Militia, however, the provisions in the Militia Regulations, which provide that the Militia when embodied shall be governed by the provisions contained in the various warrants relating to the Regular forces, and by the regulations and orders laid down for the Regular forces, so far as such warrants, regulations, and orders may be applicable to the Militia, would

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    apply to him, and, consequently, without his consent, he could be attached to any military body to which, under the King's Regulations, a soldier of the Regular forces could be attached, though, of course, he could not be attached to a military body sent on service outside the United Kingdom. I am sorry the Question could not be answered more shortly than I have endeavoured to do.

    ASSIZES AND QUARTER SESSIONS BILL.
    Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
    House adjourned at ten minutes before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.