Lords Sitting of 19 February 1908

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—Great Northern, Piccadilly, and Brompton Railway [H.L.]; London Electric Supply [H.L.]; London Motor Roadways Approach [H.L.]
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill [H.L.]; London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill [H.L.]—(Petition for additional Provision); Malvern Hills Bill [H.L.]; Thames River Steamboat Service Act (1904) Amendment Bill [H.L.]; Ards and Bangor Railways Bill; Dover Graving Docks Bill; Lower Thames (Grays) Dock Bill.—Examiners' Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Wednesday next.
Crystal Palace Company Bill [H.L.]; South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Bill [H.L.]; Taff Vale Railway Bill [H.L.].—Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Great Western Railway (Superannuation Scheme) Bill [H.L.].—Read 2a, and committed.
Great Western Railway Bill [H.L.]; Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Bill [H.L.].—Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Ammanford Urban District Council Water Bill [H.L.]; Audenshaw and Saddleworth Urban District Councils Bill [H.L.]; Bristol Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Briton Ferry Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Keighley Corporation Bill [H.L.]; London and District Electricity
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Supply Bill [H.L.]; Merthyr Tydfil Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Monmouthshire County Council Bill [H.L.]; Skegness Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Swansea Valley Gas Bill [H.L.]; Wath-upon-Dearne Urban District Council Gas Bill [H.L.]; Ravensthorpe Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Llanelly and Burry Port Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Llanelly Gas Bill [H.L.]; Pontypridd Water Bill [H.L.]; Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill [H.L.]; Barry Railway Bill [H.L.]; Aire and Calder Navigation Bill [H.L.]; Rhymney Railway Bill [H.L.].—Committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Camberwell and other Metropolitan Borough Councils (Superannuation) Bill [H.L.]; Herne Bay Pier Bill [H.L.]; Hud-dersfield Water Bill [H.L.]; Magee Presbyterian College (Londonderry) Bill [H.L.]; Norwich Union Fire Insurance Society Bill [H.L.]; St. Marylebone Borough Council (Superannuation) Bill [H.L.]; Cardiff Railway Bill [H.L.]; London, Brighton and South Coast Railway Bill [H.L.]; Commercial Union Assurance Company Bill [H.L.]; Northern Assurance Company Bill [H.L.].—Committed.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  I. Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of—(Portsdown and Horndean Light Railway (Extension, etc.) Order, 1908). A light railway in the parish and rural district of Catherington, in the county of Southampton, in extension of the light railway authorised by the Portsdown and Horndean Light Railway Order, 1898, and for other purposes; (London and North Western Railway (Dyserth and Newmarket Light Railway) Order, 1908. A light railway in the county of Flint, from Dyserth to Newmarket.
  II. Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of light railways in the county of Salop, from Stottesdon to Billingsley.

  RIVERS POLLUTION PREVENTION ACT, 1876, PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND ACT, 1897.
  Joint Report, dated 22nd October, 1907, to the Secretary for Scotland and the Local Government Board for Scotland on the pollution of the river Leven (Dumbartonshire) by Mr. W. S. Curphey, Inspector under the Rivers Pollution Prevention Acts, and Dr. Dittmar, Medical Inspector to the Local Government Board for Scotland.
  NAVY (BATTLE PRACTICE).
  Result of battle practice in His Majesty's Fleet, 1907. Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  CENSUS OF PRODUCTION ACT, 1908.
  Rules made by the Board of Trade, dated 12th February 1908.

  COMMITTALS (IRELAND).
  Returns from the Clerks of the Crown and Peace of the number of persons committed for trial in 1907.
  Laid before the House. (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
  The Lords following, viz.—

  M. Ripon.

  V. Churchill.

  (L. Privy Seal.)

  D. Bedford.

  L. Balfour.

  D. Northumberland.

  L. Ribblesdale.

  L. Granard. (E. Granard.)

  M. Lansdowne.

  L Denman.

  E. Lauderdale.

  L. Belper.

  E. Waldegrave.

  L. Brougham and Vaux.

  E. Rosse.

  E. Cawdor.

  L. Newton.

  E. Camperdown.

  with the Chairman of Committees, were appointed a Committee to select and pro pose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.

  STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Ordered, That a Standing Committee be appointed for the consideration of such
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  Public Bills as may be committed to it by the House.

  COMMITTEE OF SELECTION FOR THE STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Appointed: The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee—

  E. Jersey. L.

  L.Granard. (E. Granard.)

  E. Waldegrave.

  L. Denman.

  V. Churchill.

  L. Kintore. (E. Kintore.)

  L. Balfour. L.

  Laurence.

  STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
  Appointed: The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee—

  E. Crewe. (L. President.)

  V. Sid mouth.

  V. Knutsford.

  V. Churchill.

  D. Bedford.

  D. Marlborough.

  L. Zouche of Haryngworth.

  D. Northumberland

  L. Barnard.

  M. Lansdowne.

  L. Balfour.

  M. Salisbury.

  L. Ribblesdale.

  M. Bath.

  L. Colchester.

  L. Poltimore.

  E. Derby.

  L. Kintore. (E. Kintore)

  E. Denbigh.

  E. Chesterfield.

  L. Belper.

  E. Jersey.

  L. Brougham and Vaux.

  E. Lauderdale.

  E. Waldegrave.

  L. Kinnaird.

  E. Cadogan.

  L. Hylton.

  E. Howe.

  L. Fermanagh. (E. Erne.)

  E. Amherst.

  E. Camperdown.

  L. Herries.

  E. Dartrey.

  L. Monkswell.

  E. Lytton.

  L. Newton.

  E. Carrington.

  L. Welby.

  L. Ludlow.

  All petitions relating to the Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present session referred to the Committee unless otherwise ordered.

  HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
  Select Committee appointed: The Lords following with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President, the Lord Privy Seal,

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  and the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee—

  D. Northumberland

  V. Gordon. (E. Aberdeen.)

  M. Bath.

  V. Cross.

  M. Cholmondeley.

  V. Peel.

  M. Breadalbane.

  V. Knutsford.

  V. Churchill.

  E. Beauchamp. (L. Steward.)

  V. Selby.

  E. Clarendon.

  L. Balfour.

  E. Chesterfield.

  L. Ribblesdale.

  E. Waldegrave.

  L. Colchester.

  E. Spencer.

  L. Rosebery. (E. Rosebery.)

  E. Mount Edgecumbe.

  L. Kintore. (E. Kintore.)

  E. Belmore.

  E. Cawdor.

  L. Belper.

  E. Camperdown.

  L. Tweedmouth.

  E. Ancaster.

  L. Monk Bretton.

  E. Carrington.

  L. Macnaghten.

  E. Halsbury.

  L. Welby.

  E. Plymouth.

  L. Burghclere.

  L. Colebroke.

  THE PALACE OF WESTMINSTER.
  LORD STANMORErose to call the attention of the House to the recommendations contained in the Report of the Select Committee on the Decoration of the Palace of Westminster; and to ask whether His Majesty's Government propose to take any action based thereon. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it will be within the recollection of some of your Lordships that last year a Select Committee was appointed to inquire and report with respect to the unfinished condition of the rooms in the Palace of Westminster appropriated to the service of this House, and their approaches. That Committee duly reported, and the Report has been some time in the hands of your Lordships and of His Majesty's Government, and I am anxious to inquire whether it is the intention of the Government to take any action upon the recommendations of that Committee, or to put the Report away in a dusty pigeon-hole, into which so many other Reports have been placed in the past.
  The Report of the Select Committee showed clearly that everything I had previously said in this House from time to time with regard to the unfinished condition of the Palace was absolutely correct, and that there is hardly an apartment in this Palace, with the exception
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  of that in which we are now assembled and the Library, which is not more or less incomplete and unfinished. Familiarity with the existing state of things prevents our noticing it in the way that strangers do, but you may depend upon it that, satisfied as we may be with it, strangers are not satisfied, and many a jeer has been made at the condition of this Palace. The Report of the Committee went at great length into the condition of almost every part of the House, and described each apartment separately. I am not going to inflict anything like a repetition of that Report upon your Lordships at this time, but I would mention its principal recommendations, and those, I think, were of a very moderate nature.
  The main recommendation was that, considering the unfinished state of the apartments, the work of gradually completing them should be recommenced, however slowly, and with whatever economy was desirable They also recommended that some sort of advisory body should be appointed which should give something like continuity to the scheme, whatever it might be, to be carried out; and, although it might be impossible to reappoint such a Commission as originally took the matter in hand, some sort of committee or seleet body of advisors might be found who should prevent abrupt changes in the designs to be followed. The final recommendation, which I think was a very moderate one, was with regard to the work suggested to be commenced at once. They suggested that a beginning should be made in the third of the three corridors which lead out of the Central Hall, of which two are already filled with pictures, and the other having nothing on it but wallpaper. They recommended that in that corridor the work should be begun, and also that the two halls, the one at the bottom and the one at the top, with the great staircase, should be relieved of the unsightly fittings with which they are now disgraced. The fine chimneys of those apartments are hidden, one by a refreshment bar and the other by a receptacle for hat pegs, and the one fresco which has not been obliterated in the upper hall is defaced by having put before it, as if in irony, a huge telephone box, which hides a part of the picture, and is certainly not an object in the

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  proper place. I believe the whole of that might be altered, and I understand that the estimate for that work and for providing accommodation for refreshments would not exceed £500, which is certainly not an enormous demand upon the revenues of the country.
  Moreover, supposing that the work in that corridor were begun, the expense would not fall wholly upon the Government, for I believe there are two Members of your Lordships' House who are willing to present two of the pictures, provided always that the Government will do something, however small, towards the completion of the work. Those two panels will be furnished if the Government will sty, not that they are going to spend a large sum of money this year or next year, but that they will take the scheme again into serious consideration, and spend a small sum of money in carrying it out. Those are the recommendations of the Committee. What are the answers which I shall probably receive? I am under no illusion in the matter. I know that it is most uphill work to go on year after year pressing this subject, but I do not despair of success in the end.
  I suppose the answers that will be made to night will be those usually given in reply to any Motion of this kind—first, that there is no money available; and, secondly, that people do not care about it and do not want it. I venture to think that both those answers are in the nature of excuses rather than reasons. As to the first, I have already said, and the Committee stated it clearly in their Report, that we do not desire that any great sum should be devoted to this purpose. It is impossible to say that this great country cannot afford a few hundred pounds to do a small bit of such useful work as that proposed; it is really making a laughing stock of the country to say we cannot afford a few hundred pounds to carry on, however slowly, the decoration of what is, after all, the great national Palace, wherein assemble the Houses of the Legislature. As to the other excuse, I not believe in it at all. I do not believe that the people at large would object to, or do otherwise than approve of, an expenditure upon the completion of this great national building. What they may not approve of is a large expenditure devoted to the personal

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  comfort and luxury of Members of the House of Commons in the more private parts of the building, such as the smoking rooms, dining rooms, and tea rooms, on all of which large sums of money are spent, while nothing is expended upon those parts which are accessible to the public, which belong to the public, and which, I believe, the public would willingly, at some expense, see made worthy of the objects to which they are devoted.
  I do not for one moment think that there would be any objection in the country to a moderate expenditure, spread over a number of years, upon the due decoration and adornment of this Palace Another recommendation was that a Joint Committee of both Houses should be appointed, because the apartments devoted to the use of the House of Commons were necessarily excluded from the purview of this Committee. That may be a course which will commend itself to His Majesty's Government, but, at all events, I wish to inquire what it is they intend to do, whether they propose to proceed with the work or to leave the magnificent apartments of the Palace unfinished and unfit to be looked upon by visitors to this country.
  THE EARL OF CARLISLE: My Lords, as I was a Member of this Select Committee I should like to say a word or two in support of my noble friend's request. The Committee had a great number of witnesses before them, men pre-eminent in different ways connected with the Fine Arts, practical and decorative. These witnesses, as was, perhaps, not surprising, differed very much as to the exact thing to be done, but they agreed in one thing, I think, with practical unanimity—namely, that this building was a noble building considered as a work of architecture, and that it was an immense pity, from that point of view, that it should be left in an unfinished and unworthy condition. That, I take it, may be the view expressed by all connected with the Arts, however much they differ in other matters, and I cannot believe that it is a view that would be disagreed with by large democratic bodies, because we see the sort of buildings that the largest and most democratic bodies build for themselves when they are their own masters.
  Anybody who has visited the town halls of Glasgow or of Belfast will have

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  seen the sort of building that largo industrial bodies consider necessary and worthy to house their representative institutions. It would be a surprising thing to compare the finish and elaboration of those buildings with the really shabby second class waiting-room appearance of a great many of the rooms in this Palace. I quite expect the Government to tell us that there is no money, and I know that we must not discuss money matters in this House; but I cannot help thinking that it would be rather interesting to compare sums spent on purely decorative and not utilitarian purposes during the past year. I see that on refreshment kiosks in Regent's Park, £1,360 was spent; on putting up very ugh erections in the Mall, £18,000; on the decoration of the Spanish Embassy £50,000; on the Roman Embassy, £1,580; and on the Copenhagen ballroom, £800. No doubt all those things may be very well defended and may be very useful, but they are decorative, and I cannot think that the decoration of those places is more essential to the dignity and greatness of the country than the completion of the central Parliament House.
  Not only that, but we see every day, in passing, the new offices which have sprung up and which, as far as I can judge, seem to be covered in an almost unneccessarily profuse manner with statuary, festoons, and towers. I feel that it is not too much to ask the Government to discriminate a little in the expenditure of the money they elect to lay out on ornamentation. There was another recommendation of the Committee which, I think, may possibly be an obstacle to the Government taking up the recommendations made, and that was with regard to the appointment of an independent advisory board. I have no right to speak for the Committee, but, speaking individually, I should be perfectly content if the Government would carry out a scheme of completion without an advisory committee or board. I think we may have full confidence in the Minister who at present has charge of the work. At least I have, and as he is in the House of Commons and it is open to any one in that House to question him and to object to what he does, I think hit action might not be objected to in the same manner as the recommendation of a Committee of this House. Whatever
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  the Government decide on that point, I do trust that, even if they are not able to do anything this year, they will give us some hope that the matter will not altogether be allowed to go to sleep.
  VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, before the reply is given on behalf of His Majesty's Government might I ask them also to take into consideration a practical matter. I have the fullest sympathy with the question raised by the two noble Lords, but I also have a desire to see this Chamber clothed in a proper manner, and I consider that the state of the leather on these benches is not consistent with the dignity of the House of Lords, or, indeed, of any Legislative Assembly in the world. I hope, therefore, if the Government see their way to contribute towards the objects referred to, they will also take into consideration the spending of a little money to cover the absolutely worn benches which we see around us. I can fully understand the desire that the decoration of the building should be completed, but I hope the Government will press upon the Department chiefly concerned the importance, at any rate, of decently clothing what is already supposed to be complete.
  THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I feel a difficulty in rising from this Bench and supporting, as I wish to do, my noble friend who asked this Question, because I rather lay myself open to the retort that up till two years ago, and for several years before, we on this side were in a position to do something, and we did nothing, in answer to the appeals made by the noble Lord. But, my Lords, although I very much deplore that on those occasions I, as First Commissioner, was unable to give him a more favourable Answer, I should like now, being in a position of greater freedom, to support very warmly the object he has in view. It really is but a very small thing that the Committee which your Lordships appointed agreed to ask. The actual sum of money is a mere matter of detail. A very small sum set aside and used every year for the purpose of gradually continuing the decorations of the Palace would in the end, and at no very distant date, accomplish what my noble friend has in view. One knows well enough what the difficulties of adding to the Estimates are,

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  but I trust the noble Lord opposite will hold out some hope that a beginning in this direction may be made very soon.
  *THE LOED PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE): My Lords, certainly nobody can complain of the noble Lord on the Cross Benches for having raised this little debate on a subject which, though not of first importance, yet is, at any rate, one of considerable interest to all the Members of your Lordships' House. It is perfectly true that since the Commission over which the Prince Consort presided with so much sympathy and ability was dissolved, very little has been done in the way of completing the decoration of this building. What little has been done has been done in rather a tentative and intermittent manner, and the noble Earl who has just sat down was good enough to make it quite clear, at the beginning of his speech, that at any rate no Party recriminations on this subject were possible. We are all equally to blame according to the number of years in which each side has been in charge of the finances of the country.
  The noble Lord on the Cross Benches said that two reasons or excuses might be advanced for not at once starting the work. One of them was that we should allege that there is a general indifference on this matter. I do not admit that. I do not think there is a general indifference. It is, of course, perfectly true that when the whole business was dragged on for such a number of years, and when, as the noble Lord himself said, we have all got more or less habituated to the appearance of the various rooms as they are, there seems to be no particular reason for making a start at any particular moment; and so far only the noble Lord's argument may be a good one. He also said that we should say there is no money. That, of course, would not be literally true, but, at the same time, we are bound to say that at a time when very large demands for expenditure are being made, and when the general level of taxation is considered, at any rate by some people, to be quite high enough, a new Estimate for purely decorative purposes is a somewhat difficult matter to recommend to the House of Commons and to the country. The suggestion of the Committee was that a sum of £4,000 a year should be
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  allotted for this purpose until the original scheme has been more or less completed.
  On the point of the Advisory Committee, I do not wish to express any opinion at this moment. We are not, as the House will understand from what I have already said, able to recommend any expenditure this year, and therefore that particular point does not arise. The noble Lord on the Cross Benches spoke of the suggestion of a Joint Committee and pointed to the recommendation at the end of the Report that the House of Commons should be, if possible, interested in this matter. I very much regret now, and I think we on this side may take some blame on ourselves, that when the original Committee was appointed we did not suggest it should be a Joint Committee instead of a Committee of your Lordships' House. Joint Committees are not always very desirable or very successful bodies, but I am bound to say, on looking back, I think this is just the case for a Joint Committee, which would have served the purpose of interesting the Members of the House of Commons in a subject which, at present, they may possibly feel has been in some way rather removed from them.
  I think it is only fair to my right hon. friend, the First Commissioner, to point out that he has done what he could to improve the condition of the building. He has devoted some attention both to the stone work and to the wood work, I think with results which commend themselves to the public taste. I am perfectly certain he will not do what the noble Lord on the Cross Benches is afraid of—that is, put the Report by in a dusty pigeon hole. We are not able to hold out any kind of promise now, but I can assure my noble friend that the matter will not be lost sight of, that it is one which we do regard sympathetically, and that we shall be very glad, indeed, if we find it possible to make some sort of start, if not on the exact lines of the Report, at any rate on lines which will commend themselves to the country. With regard to the seats in your Lordships' House, which the noble Viscount does not wish to see redistributed but recovered, I will draw the attention of my right hon. friend to the regrettable condition of things to which he has referred.
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I think we cannot

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  regard the speech of the noble Earl as unsympathetic towards the request of the noble Lord on the Cross Benches. The Report of the Committee was one of great moderation. Indeed, having the dignity of this House very much at heart I would almost say it was too moderate in character, for we cannot visit the great rooms and halls in this building without realising that many things require to be done. The noble Earl Lord Carlisle, with perfect truth, drew attention to the fact that public bodies spare no expense in making their buildings dignified and in every way worthy of the objects to which they are put. Surely this great historic Palace should not be behind those buildings in regard to the completion of its decoration. I gathered from the noble Earl the Lord President of the Council, that the Government sympathise with the object of my noble friend on the Cross Benches. If the Government hold that view, I am at a loss to understand why they do not allocate annually at least a part of the sum required to carry out the Committee's suggestions. I am glad, however, to hear that the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works has this matter in view. So long as this great institution, the House of Lords, exists, and I believe it will exist for many generations to come, the place in which it meets should be maintained in a fitting state of dignity.

  THE HAGUE CONFERENCE.
  LORD EVERSLEY: My Lords, I rise to ask the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether the Government will lay before Parliament a report showing the proposal made at the Hague Conference for the abolition of the right of capture of private property at sea in time of war, and the discussion which took place upon it; and also a copy of the Paper referred to in Sir Edward Grey's letter of instructions to His Majesty's plenipotentiaries at the Congress, in which the arguments for and against the proposals were fully set out.
  THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord FITZMAURICE): My Lords, in reply to my noble friend I have to say that Papers will shortly be laid before Parliament which will contain the minutes of the plenary meetings of the Confer-
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  ence, and the reports of the committees laid before the Conference at these meetings. These Papers will be found to contain all the information which his Majesty's Government can properly make public now. They are not at present in a position to say whether the discussions held at the various subsidiary meetings of committees and sub committees will be published eventually in whole or in part. This question, they understand, is under consideration at the Hague. Anything that is published there will, however, be placed in the library of both Houses of Parliament here. With regard to the particular question of the exemption of private property from capture, there were a large number of reports and memoranda placed at the disposal of the British plenipotentiaries which, in keeping with, the usual practice in such matters, being of a confidential character, cannot be published.
  THE MARQUFSS OF SALISBURY: When will the Papers be laid?
  LORD FITZMAURICE: I cannot give the exact date, as the Papers are very lengthy and contain matters in regard to which we naturally have to communicate with foreign Powers, but they will be laid as soon as possible.
  House adjourned at ten minutes past Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.