Lords Sitting of 12 February 1908

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Norwich Union Fire Assurance Society Bill [H.L.]; Llanelly Gas Bill [H.L.]; Pontypridd Water Bill [H.L.]; Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill [H.L.] Read 2a.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TREATY SERIES, No. 4 (1908).
  Treaty between the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Norway, and Russia, respecting the independence and territorial integrity of Norway; signed at Christiania, 2nd November, 1907. Ratification deposited at Christiania, 6th February, 1908). Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  Report by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons—That the Post Office Site (Glasgow) Order ought to be introduced in Parliament as a Public Bill; That the provisions of the Leith Burgh Order; the North Burgh Extension, etc., Order; the North British and Mercantile Insurance Company (Ocean Marine Insurance Transfer, etc.) Order; and the Wishaw Burgh Electricity, etc., Order, are of such a character that they ought to be dealt with by Private Bill and not by Provisional Order; that, save as aforesaid, the Draft Provisional Orders be allowed to proceed, subject to such recommendations as may hereafter be made with respect to the several Orders.

  PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS, 1853–189 (CONDITIONAL LICENCE).
  Licence granted by His Majesty to Daniel Condron under the provisions of the Penal Servitude Acts, 1853 to 1891, to which are annexed conditions other

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  than those contained in Schedule A. of the Penal Servitude Act, 1864.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SMALL HOLDINGS IN BERKSHIRE.
  *VISCOUNT HILLrose to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he had any information as to the existence of the North Berks Small Holdings and Allotments Society; whether this Society were offering land to the public for small holdings; and whether the land so offered belonged to the Duchy of Cornwall.
  The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the Question which stands in my name on the Paper has reference to a farm known as Church Farm, on the Duchy of Cornwall estates, and upon which an article appeared in The Times of 17th January. It appears, from information I have been able to obtain, and also from the statement in The Times, that Mr. Strauss, M.P., applied, on behalf of the North Berks Small Holdings and Allotments Society, for a lease of practically the whole of the farm—some 400 acres—for small holdings. If this is the case, your Lordships will see that Mr. Strauss has entirely ignored the Small Holdings and Allotments Act of last year, and it is upon this information that I desire to call the attention of the noble Earl to the grave injustice that would arise out of such proceedings.
  The Act to which I have referred distinctly lays down that the local authority are to draw up a scheme, and, if they fail, the Board of Agriculture are to do so, and to present the scheme to the local authority; and, if the local authority fail to carry out the suggested scheme, the Board of Agriculture have then the power to carry it out themselves. It is further laid down in the Act that local authorities, as well as the Board of Agriculture, have power to hand over land that they have purchased for small holdings to other associations, but only provided that the constitution and rules of the associations are approved by the local authority. All this has been ignored by Mr. Strauss, and the news of this transaction has created a great deal of disturbance among agricultural labourers and farmers. That being so, I think it is only the duty of any Member
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  of your Lordships' House interested in the Small Holdings Act to draw the attention of the President of the Board of Agriculture to it.
  I feel confident that the noble Earl does not desire the Act to be ignored. On the other hand, if the statement which has appeared in The Times is not true, or is exaggerated, then I think the noble Earl should be given an opportunity of explaining the case fully and satisfactorily, in order to remove any erroneous impression already existing in the neighbourhood of the Duchy of Cornwall and prevent its spreading to other agricultural districts. A similar Question was asked in another place, to which Mr. Runciman gave a fairly satisfactory Answer, but whether it was an official Answer or not I am not in a position to state. As the article which appeared in The Times has been reprinted in various local papers, I maintain that it is only fair to the whole of the agricultural community that the matter should be satisfactorily explained, to enable the working of the Small Holdings Act being successfully carried through without any friction.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON): My Lords, the noble Viscount has asked me whether I have any information as to the existence of the North Berks Small Holdings and Allotments Society. I have made inquiries, and I find that there is a society under that name, and it is in course of being registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act of 1893. It is affiliated to the Agricultural Organisation Society—a well-known society, among whose principal promoters are Mr. Yerburgh, ex-M.P., the Hon. Thomas Brassey, Colonel Long, M.P., Mr. F. D. Acland, M.P., and Mr. Noel Buxton. Promises, I am informed, have been already received to take up between 1,500 and 2,000 shares in this society, the object being to form a sort of parent society in North Berks, with branches in the different parishes, and it is to be run very much on the same lines as the Lincolnshire and the Norfolk Small Holdings Societies, which have done much good work, and with both of which I happen, myself, to be personally connected.

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  I am next asked whether this society is offering land to the public for small holdings. I am informed that there is a considerable amount of land already applied for in North Berks. The matter has not come officially before me, and I am, therefore, unable to state the exact amount. But I believe I am correct in saying that around Abingdon, a small Berkshire town of about 7,000 inhabitants, there is a demand for 500 or 600 acres of land. Perhaps I might say here that ill 1905 or 1906 about 100 men had small holdings and allotments round the town, but the land was sold, I believe to a building speculator, and the tenants turned off, and at the present moment a good many of them are without land at all. Land was offered to these men by the local authority, but as the land so offered was the sewage farm, they, not unnaturally, I think, declined it. I am informed that these men have lost heart in the business, and that some of them, at any rate, are not disposed to try a venture again after having been turned out of their old holdings. I understand that the applicants in this case have a certain amount of money, and that the society is able to guarantee a year's rent in addition to stocking the holdings, independently of the money the men themselves have.
  There must be a good demand for land in that neighbourhood. In the Faringdon district there is a farm belonging to Oriel College, Oxford, the tenant of which went bankrupt and for which there are already forty-one applications, the forty-first application being from the North Berks Small Holdings and Allotments Society. This society has, I understand, offered an increased rent, and also guarantee the rent in advance, so as, if possible, to out-distance their competitors and got the farm. But, as I have said, the registration of the society is not complete, the agricultural organisation which I mentioned having the matter in hand. Therefore the Answer to the second Question of the noble Viscount is that the society are not offering land to the public for small holdings, for the simple reason that they have at present no land to offer.
  The noble Viscount mentioned a farm belong to the Duchy of Cornwall, and referred to some reports in The Times
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  and elsewhere, about which he asked me a Question. I think the House will agree that it is not my business to correct what appears in the newspapers, and on the subject of the farm belonging to the Duchy of Cornwall I can only refer to Mr. Runciman's reply in the other House, that the Duchy has not given, and never had any intention to give, notice to quit to the tenants of the farm at Shipton, near Abingdon. I am informed that, while the Duchy of Cornwall decline to lot land to individuals or to associations for small holdings, they are perfectly ready and willing to let land for this purpose to local authorities. They are anxious to meet in every fair way the demand for land, and I believe that in days gone by the Duchy of Cornwall were very generous in this matter, and that they have a considerable number of allotments and small holdings on this large estate.
  I do not quite understand what the noble Viscount meant when he said that Mr. Strauss had ignored the Small Holdings Act. This association apparently has been anxious to get land by mutual consent from individual landlords, and they may, or may not, have approached the Duchy of Cornwall in that way. But it seems to me that, instead of ignoring the recent Act, the members of this association are doing their best to assist its operation. I think the House will agree that these associations are of great value, not only to their members but to the local authorities, to the landlords, and to the would-be small holders themselves; and I would remind the noble Viscount that specific powers were given, under Section 9 of the Act of last year, to enable local authorities to let land to such associations. That was only carrying out the idea of the Committee presided over by the Earl of Onslow. Five hundred acres of Crown lands have already been let to the Lincolnshire Small Holdings Association. These associations must afford considerable relief to the county councils in the detailed trouble and labour of meeting the enormous demands for small holdings. And here, perhaps, I may be permitted to express my gratitude to the county councils for the generous, practical, and workmanlike way in which they have met the extra work placed on them by the Small Holdings Act. In twenty-six

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  counties within six weeks 4,700 applications were made for 87,000 acres of land, which represents 136 square miles of country, equivalent to a belt about one mile wide extending rather further than from London to Bristol. Under these circumstances the work of the county councils must be very heavy. They are tackling the question in a way deserving of our best thanks, and by fostering these associations in every way in our power we hope to save the county councils a large amount of the detail work. I hope this Answer will satisfy the noble Viscount, but if he requires any further information regarding this society I shall be only too pleased to supply it.

  MANNING OF THE MERCANTILE MARINE.
  LORD BRASSEYrose to call attention to the Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the Board of Trade on the supply and training of British seamen for the mercantile marine. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in calling attention briefly to the training of seamen, I need not insist on the importance of the subject. Your Lordships are familiar with those imposing statistics of tonnage on which Presidents of the Board of Trade delight to dwell. We are justly proud of the British mercantile marine. But when we turn from the number and tonnage of our ships to manning, there is less cause for satisfaction. We are unduly dependent on foreigners. Under the restrictions imposed by the navigation laws, a considerable percentage of foreigners was allowed. Since the completion of the Suez Canal, Asiatics have been introduced in large numbers into our merchant service. We need them. In the heats experienced on the Red Sea route Europeans must in time deteriorate. To exclude, or even to diminish, the employment of Asiatics is not desirable. It has been recommended that a reserve for the Navy should be raised in the ports of India. The Committee on Manning, over which Lord St. Helier presided, were favourably impressed with the manly character of the native witnesses who appeared before them, and they reported that Lascars were fully competent for the naval service as stokers and firemen.
  Turning to the trades for which British seamen are suitable, foreigners have always been employed to some extent, and until quite recent years in an ever-increasing proportion. There are ships sailing under the British flag manned before the mast almost entirely by foreigners. Such a state of things must be viewed with regret. It has given rise to apprehension that the characteristics of the British as a sea-going race are deteriorating. Successive Governments have appointed Departmental Committees to suggest remedies. In 1894 the manning of merchant ships was considered by a Committee, with Sir Edward Reed as chairman. His colleagues included Mr. Forwood, Secretary to the Admiralty, and several leading shipowners and commanders of the mercantile marine. In their Report the Committee dwelt at length on the disadvantageous conditions of the seaman's calling as compared with those of employments on shore. With wages it is not possible for Governments directly to deal. The recommendations as to training, though strongly urged, have been too long neglected.
  The Committee advocated the establishment of training-ships. They pointed out that the Legislature had provided liberally for the promotion of technical education, and that no branch could be more directly profitable to the country than the preparation of youths for the sea service. A few years later the subject of manning was once more referred to the Departmental Committee appointed in 1902, with the late Lord St. Helier as chairman. Effect has since been given to the recommendations of the Committee as to cooking, inspection of food, and the exclusion from British ships of foreigners whose knowledge of our language is not sufficient. But nothing has been done in aid of training-ships and the training of boys on merchant vessels.
  And now I come to the Report of the Departmental Committee of which Mr. Hudson Kearley, Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade, was chairman. The Committee had before them previous unsuccessful efforts. The boy sailor scheme was connected with the light dues. It gave less to long voyage ships than to vessels in the coasting trades, and the former are the best schools for

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  training. Later the Admiralty proposed a plan, but that scheme was a failure because the grants were insufficient. Mr. Kearley's Committee, having the experience of past failures before them, were more liberal. They proposed a capitation of £20, under suitable conditions, for each boy, not exceeding 5,000, annually trained for the sea service. The Committee repeat and emphasise the arguments used by Sir Edward Reed's Committee as to the duty of a maritime State to train boys to the sea, as a vitally important branch of technical instruction. An expenditure of £100,000 a year on training is, in my opinion, a small item in the vast sums we spend on education.
  I turn to methods of training. For those serving as firemen there can be no training so practical as that to be obtained in the stokehold of a well-manned steamer. Discipline can best be taught in a well-ordered school-ship, of which the "Exmouth"—the vessel maintained by the Metropolitan Asylums Board—is an admirable example. For officers and seamen to be employed in deck duties and in handling canvas, sailing ships are the best schools. Mr. Kearley's Committee refer with special commendation to the "Port Jackson," a sailing ship which recently took out a hundred boys from the "Warspite" on a ten months voyage to Australia and back. The arrangements for instruction were singularly efficient. At the end of the cruise no difficulty was experienced in finding good employment for all the boys at sea, thus proving that good training supplies a want. We must, view with regret the fact that sailing ships are disappearing under the British flag. Here we may learn a lesson from Germany. By far the finest sailing ships of the present day are those in the nitrate trade, under the German flag. They go out in ballast round the Horn in from sixty to seventy days, and they return, carrying cargoes of 6,500 tons of nitrate, in from seventy to eighty days. It would be well if a few ships such as those now sailing from Hamburg were running under the British flag to Australia. They would be a valuable nursery for British seamen.
  In conclusion, the ships in which the boys would be trained before the mast would be suitable for the training of the young officers of the Naval Reserve. The names of the officers of the Reserve fill twenty pages in our Navy list. Is that
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  Reserve effective, or a force on paper? If intended to be effective, provision should be made for training. For officers entered for the permanent Navy no expense is spared. Nothing, however, has been done for the Reserve; yet at a small cost much might be accomplished. The cause which I have endeavoured to plead has fewer friends than might be wished. Attention at the Admiralty is naturally centred in the permanent force, and reserves recruited from the permanent force. Leading shipowners have no difficulty in manning their ships; many are content to rely on foreigners, who serve them cheaply. The recommendations of the Committees to which I have referred rest mainly on considerations of a national character, and these will, I know, have weight with your Lordships, and, I trust, with the public. For without the support of public opinion it is vain to appeal to the Treasury.
  THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, the question raised by my noble friend is one of deep interest in this country, and I suppose there is nobody more competent to speak upon it than the noble Lord, who from his earliest days has derived his pleasures from the sea, and has done a great deal to improve the lot of the seafaring community as a whole. The noble Lord virtually wishes me to say what the Government propose to do as regards the recommendations of the Kearley Committee which reported last August.
  That Committee made various propositions and considered various proposals. One of the first proposals they considered was the compelling of every ship to carry boys, but they abandoned that standpoint altogether, and I think your Lordships will agree, quite justly. Then they discussed the question whether or not capitation grants should be given to shipowners. Various arguments were adduced against this course, and I think one of the strongest was that of the Admiralty, who said they would derive no benefit whatever under such a scheme, and that it would not affect the Navy materially one way or the other, as they were always able to get as many boys for the Navy as they wanted. The Committee eventually decided that the best course would be to give grants to certain training ships, and they argued—I think very

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  justly—that it would be a great national advantage to have boys who were going to adopt a seafaring career better trained. Many of the shipowners who gave evidence used an argument which I think is a very true one—namely, that if they took boys they were of very little use to them for something like two years. They are not in the same position as boys on shore, for in the case of the latter the Government support technical schools, and a boy entering, say, the engineering trade would work at the shops during the day and take advantage in the evening of the technical instruction for which the country pays. Secondly, the shipowners say they have to bear the whole cost. There is no doubt that a boy who has served on a training ship is much more competent to take his place among a crew than a boy brought straight from the country. Several shipowners, however, said they would much rather take a boy direct from the country than one who had had experience on a training ship, but I cannot think that any of your Lordships would agree as to the wisdom of that.
  There are one or two other points to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. It is our great hope that in the future we shall be able to reduce very materially the number of foreigners employed on board ship, but in this respect it must not be forgotten that this country has 50 per cent. of the whole carrying trade of the world; we have the largest fighting Navy and the largest fishing fleet in the world, and, with our population, I think it is impossible to hope that the whole of the British mercantile marine can be manned entirely by British subjects. However, I may say in this respect that the number of foreigners employed on British ships is gradually decreasing. I hope this state of things will continue, and I think the Merchant Shipping Act which I had the honour of presenting to your Lordships in 1906 will go a long way to effect this. Before that year seamen did not have the best of treatment, but we have now improved their food and accommodation, and I look forward to the future with great confidence in that respect.
  Now to touch briefly on the recommendations of the Committee and their cost. The output of boys from these training ships would be about 5,000 per annum, and that, at £20 per year, would
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  work out annually at £100,000; and if the Committee's recommendation is to be acted upon that sum of money will have to be found by the country. One great objection is that there is no way of determining that a boy, after we have paid this capitation grant for him, will remain permanently at sea. He may go to sea for two years and at the end of that time give up the calling, and we then derive no benefit from the amount expended on his training. I cannot give your Lordships a definite answer to-night as to whether or not we shall be able to find the money necessary for this proposal, but I may say that we all view the objects of the Report with great sympathy, and if it is possible to adopt the views expressed in it I am sure His Majesty's Government will do their best in that direction.
  Since we met last session my noble friend who has raised this question to day has been honoured by being made Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports. I feel sure that every one of your Lordships will agree that no more suitable appointment could possibly have been made, and I feel that I shall be voicing the opinion of noble Lords present when I express the hope that my noble friend will be spared for many years to enjoy the honour he has so well merited.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock till Tomorrow, half - past Tea o'clock.