Lords Sitting of 11 February 1908

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Ravensthorpe Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Llanelly and Burry Port Water Bill [H.L.], Road 2a.
Clyde Navigation (Superannuation) Order Confirmation Bill [H.L.], (No. 10). A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to the Clyde Navigation; and
Transfer of Training Colleges (Scot-land) Order Confirmation Bill [H.L.], (No. 11). A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to the Transfer of Training Colleges in Scotland:—Were presented by the Lord Hamilton of Dalzell; 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, section 7) deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  DUCHY OF LANCASTER.
  Account of the Receipts and Disbursemets of the Duchy of Lancaster in the year ended 21st December 1907, also a separate Account of the Capital of the said Duchy to same date; Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

MILK SUPPLY—PROPOSED LEGISLATION.
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, I rise to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation with regard to the milk supply during the present session; and, in the event of such legislation being introduced by the Local Government Board, what steps the Board of Agriculture propose to take for the purpose of safe-guarding the interests of agriculture.
I should like to explain, as briefly as possible, my reason for putting this question. I hope it is unnecessary for me to assure the noble Earl that I have not been led to do so through any feeling
1494
of want of confidence in the Department over which he presides, nor of any hostility to further legislation with regard to the milk supply. I can speak not only for myself, but as chairman of a committee that has been appointed to watch legislation with a view to safe-guarding the interests of agriculture in this matter, and on which we have representatives of the most important breed, agricultural, and other societies in England, as well as a large number of representatives from Wales, Ireland, and Scotland. Dairy farmers and milk producers realise that legislation is not only desirable but necessary to ensure a supply of pure and wholesome milk to the consumers in the country. I can go further, and say that they would welcome legislation, provided that in it they were treated with justice and equity, and that that legislation was comprehensive, general, and applied to the whole country.
I think it will be admitted that the present condition of the milk control throughout the country is eminently unsatisfactory. We suffer from orders which are permissive, and from legislation which has been piecemeal. The Dairies, Cowsheds, and Milkshops Orders of 1885 and 1886 give power to local authorities to make Orders as to the inspection of cattle and dairies within their districts. Some local authorities have made Orders which are carried out in a satisfactory manner; on the other hand, in some districts Orders have been made which are carried out in a perfunctory way. I regret to say that in a very large number of cases local authorities have not chosen to make any regulations at all, and in those districts the milk supply is absolutely without any supervision whatever.
Then, my Lords, we have had legislation dealing with localities. The London County Council have already powers in three Acts dealing with this matter, and in the General Powers Bill which they have introduced this session they are endeavouring to get further powers in that direction. Other corporations in a similar way have obtained powers for dealing with the milk sent into their areas, and the result of this has been that farmers in different districts are placed under absolutely different conditions. We find in some districts that there is no supervision whatever. In other

1495
districts there is supervision by the local authorities. In a considerable number of districts we have two or more authorities within the same area, with the result that unnecessary burdens are placed upon the farmer in regard to the manner in which he carries on his business. I think this will be generally admitted to be an unsatisfactory state of affairs, and that a public Bill dealing with the whole question is much desired, both in the interests of the producers and the consumers.
With regard to the first part of my Question, I notice that the President of the Local Government Board, in replying to an hon. Member in the House of Commons the other day, said the Government were desirous that there should be legislation with regard to the milk supply during the present session. Considering the vast importance of this question I think I shall not be unduly pressing the noble Earl if I ask him to give us a little more definite information. I should like to ask him whether it is not only the desire of the Government, but their intention, to bring in legislation during the present session. I presume that the Government would not deal with a large subject like this, affecting a most important branch of the greatest industry in the country, without very fully and carefully considering how they were going to treat the question, and I hope the noble Earl will be able to tell us whether up to the present time, the Government have really considered what line they are going to take in dealing with the matter. I also presume that any part of the proposed Bill affecting the agricultural interest would be submitted to the Board of Agriculture for their consideration and approval; and I should be much obliged if the noble Earl would tell us whether, up to the present moment, he has received any suggestions from the Local Government Board as to the form which this legislation is to take, or, indeed, any communication from the Board whatever on this subject. I think it is only fair that, if legislation is to be introduced within the next few months, we should have a definite statement to that effect, and the Government should take the earliest opportunity of putting the form and the manner in which they are going to legislate before
1496
the public, so that those interests which are likely to be affected may have full and ample opportunity of considering the matter, and of expressing their views.
I was rather induced to put the second part of my Question from some remarks which have fallen from the noble Earl in speeches on agriculture which he has made on different occasions. I observe that in October last, speaking to the North Eastern Farmers' Association, the noble Earl told his audience that a very heavy burden might be placed on the dairy industry by ill-considered and unnecessary restrictions; and that Sir Edward Strachey, who represents the Board of Agriculture in the House of Commons, quite recently warned the farmers that they might expect stringent, and I think, if my memory serves mo right, he used the word "drastic," legislation in the immediate future with regard to this question. These expressions have, very naturally, I think, aroused considerable feeling of insecurity and of alarm among dairy farmers and stock-owners throughout the country.
I can assure the noble Earl that this feeling is very wide-spread. It is not only confined to the large dairy farmers, but is also felt strongly by the small men. The small owner feels that if any hardship were inflicted on the dairy industry by legislation, it would fall with especial severity upon the class of man who owns two or three cows; and on that class in whom the noble Earl, as we know, takes such a sincere interest—the occupiers of small holdings. I believe that if it were known that this question was going to be dealt with by the Board of Agriculture, agriculturists would look upon any possible legislation with equanimity, because they are satisfied with those many assurances, which I know are perfectly sincere, which have fallen from the noble Earl, of his desire to do his best to safe-guard the interests of agriculture.
But this Bill will be brought in by the Local Government Board, and we feel that, though the Local Government Board have the assistance of able medical officers of health, of experts, scientists, bacteriologists, and gentlemen who are admirably qualified to advise them as to the purity and distribution of

1497
milk, and of what I may call the sanitary side of the question, yet, so far as we are aware, the Local Government Board have no information and no advice on the agricultural, or what I may call the practical, side of the matter. It will be obvious that this question has to be dealt with practically as well as theoretically. In dealing with the milk supply you have to go to the source—namely, to the farm; and we contend that matters connected with cattle, their treatment, management, housing, and inspection, should be dealt with by the advice of, and through, the Board of Agriculture, who possess a highly qualified and practical veterinary staff, in whom the agriculturists have confidence.
I hope that the noble Earl, the President of the Board of Agriculture, will be able to-day to say something to allay that feeling of insecurity to which I have referred, by giving us an assurance that he will undertake that farmers have fair play in this matter. That, my Lords, is all that the dairy farmers of the country demand. I think it is a very moderate request. If I may sum it up, I would say that they wish, in any matter of legislation, their interests to be treated with justice and equity; that as far as possible they should be guarded against suffering any loss; but that if any individuals should sustain loss through legislation passed for the public good, they should be adequately compensated by the public for that loss; and also, that what I may call the agricultural side of this question, should be dealt with practically by qualified persons. I think those principles are such as generally to commend themselves, not only to agriculturists, but to all fair-minded people throughout the country.
I was pleased to see that one of our greatest authorities on hygiene and public health fully realises that these principles should be accepted. I refer to Sir James Crichton-Browne, the President of the Sanitary Inspectors' Association, who, in a speech the other day, said he hoped the Local Government Board in dealing with the milk supply would confer with the Board of Agriculture, and bear in mind the interests of the honest producer as well as those of the innocent consumer. I do not wish to put our case
1498
more strongly than it was put by that expert in matters of health, who may be taken to regard the matter rather from the point of view of the good of the public than from that of the particular interests of the agricultural classes concerned.
In conclusion, I should like to make a suggestion to the noble Earl. It is not a new suggestion, and I was sorry to observe that it was one which did not meet with great encouragement from the President of the Local Government Board in the House of Commons. I would not press the noble Earl to give me an answer in regard to my suggestion. I would only ask him to be good enough to give it his careful consideration, and I think it is of such a moderate description that the noble Earl will be able to give it a favourable consideration. It is that before any legislation is introduced dealing with this large subject, a public inquiry should be held into the whole question of the milk supply of the country. I would suggest that the inquiry might be undertaken by a Committee—a Select Committee, a Departmental Committee, or a Joint Committee—and that on that Committee should be placed representatives of both sides of the question, of the sanitary side, and of the agricultural side, the side of the consumer and that of the producer. The Committee should hear evidence on both sides, and I honestly think they would be able to arrive at a satisfactory solution of the question.
I would point out to the noble Earl, if he thinks this would cause delay, that I see no reason why the inquiry should take a very long time. We are agreed on the main principles, and on the desirability of a pure milk supply. We are all agreed that the consumer should be given pure milk, and that no injustice should be done to the producer. It is only a matter of detail, of means as to how this can best be accomplished. Therefore, I do not think an inquiry of this sort need take a very long time; and I can assure the noble Earl that if he can see his way to bringing about such an inquiry it will be most satisfactory to the dairy farmers and agriculturists, and I am confident that it will do a great deal to allay that feeling of insecurity, and almost of alarm, which I

1499
regret to say prevails to a very considerable extent at the present moment. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON: My Lords, I hope the noble Earl will permit me, in the first place, to thank him very sincerely for the kindly and courteous way in which he has spoken of the efforts of the Board with which I am connected. I am glad to be able to inform him that I have received a letter from my right hon. friend, Mr. Burns, in which he says it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation this Session with respect to the milk supply. I quite agree with the noble Earl in all he said as regards the present control of the milk industry. It is not at all in as satisfactory a condition as we should wish. The noble Earl spoke of the feeling of insecurity and alarm entertained, not only by tenant farmers but by small holders throughout the country. I can assure him that we are equally anxious to do all we possibly can to place the industry on a safer and more satisfactory basis; and, with him, I earnestly hope that the matter will be dealt with not only theoretically but also practically. The great object of the present Government, I need; hardly say, is practical legislation. We try to follow out the advice, "Let your policy be a policy of results," and I can assure the noble Earl that that will be our object and aim in this direction as well. In the second part of his Question the noble Earl asks what steps the Board of Agriculture propose to take, in the event of this legislation being introduced by the Local Government Board, for the purpose of safeguarding the interests of agriculture. I can hardly, I think, be expected to answer that question now as fully as I might wish, and to make a definite pronouncement, until the proposals have been a little more developed; but I need not say that I will do all in my power legitimately to protect the farmers in legislation of this sort, consistent with the public interest.
The noble Earl then made a suggestion with respect to a public inquiry. He
1500
did not press for an immediate answer, but I can assure him that every possible consideration will be paid to his suggestion, upon which I will at once consult my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board, Before sitting down, perhaps it will not be out of place to say that the news from Scotland as regards the cows that have foot and mouth disease is very satisfactory. Up to the present there are no fresh outbreaks, so far as we can trace, and the disease has been confined to the place where it broke out. I feel certain that your Lordships will approve of the promptitude of the stops taken in this matter by the officials of my Department, and I sincerely hope that we may be able to confine the outbreak to its present limits.
EARL ROSEBERY: As regards the last point, I should like to ask whether the noble Earl has received any representation from Linlithgowshire on the subject of the restrictions?
EARL CARRINGTON: Yes
EARL ROSEBERY: And does my noble friend mean to pay any attention to it?
EARL CARRINGTON: I am afraid I must ask for notice of that Question.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, the latter part of the noble Earl's speech was undoubtedly reassuring, but I cannot say that I thought the answer he gave to my noble friend Lord Northbrook, was quite so satisfactory. The noble Earl has not carried us very much further than we had got by the statements made in public by the President of the Local Government Board. Mr. Burns told us some time ago that the Government hoped to deal with this subject this session, and, naturally those who have had the advantage of taking part in the business of government gathered from that that there had at least been some conversations between the heads of the Local Government Board and the Board of Agriculture with regard

1501
to the proposals to be laid before Parliament. But the noble Earl informs us tonight that he has apparently only just received a letter from the President of the Local Government Board telling him exactly what all the world has known for some time past. He went on to say that he could not promise to offer the opinions of the Board of Agriculture until the proposals were somewhat more definite. We are all really waiting to know what the Government are going to do in this matter; and I would venture to point out to the Government that which they do not seem to be aware of, although I admit I think the wish may be father to the thought, that there is such a thing as the House of Lords, and that at this period of the session this House is not very busily occupied. I would venture to suggest to the President of the Local Government Board and my noble friend whether it would not be a good opportunity of giving this House something to do if these proposals, at any rate in their initial stage, were brought forward here, so that the farmers of the country would be able to express an opinion upon them.
It is not only the farmers who are concerned. I, in my Department, am anxious to know whether the Government really means to push to a conclusion legislation on this subject. There are a number of Bills before Parliament dealing with this matter in the case of large boroughs, and particularly London. We have had for years past what are known as model milk clauses. These clauses, I venture to say, are not satisfactory to anybody. They were a compromise arrived at between those interested on different sides, and it was always understood that they were to be allowed by Parliament in measures brought forward by the great corporations without variation, pending the time when the matter would be dealt with for the whole country by the Government. That time, we hoped, had arrived, but from what the noble Earl has said to-night it seems to me that the proposals are very much more in the abstract than they can be said to be in the concrete. I hope that before the session is much older we shall have some information from the Government,
1502
not only that they have aspirations, but that they do intend to deal with the matter, and also upon what lines they propose to proceed. This is not a party matter. It is one upon which we are all agreed, and it is only a question of seeing that whatever regulations are imposed in the interests of the health of the people are drawn up with the greatest consideration towards the agricultural classes, and with the least desire unnecessarily to harrass them.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: As apparently the subject is going to drop, might I ask my noble friend opposite whether he will take into consideration the introduction in this House of a Bill dealing with this matter? I am sure we all agree with his statement that this is a question which ought to be dealt with from the practical as well as the theoretical point of view; and I should say that in this House there is quite as large an experience, and quite as great knowledge of matters affecting the country as in the other House of Parliament. I would point out that up to the present time we I have no indication that there is any business to be given us to do, and if the noble Earl can induce his colleague to have the Bill introduced in this House, he will be doing a very useful and practical thing.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord TWEEDMOUTH): My Lords" I am not in a position to say that we are prepared at once to introduce a measure of this sort in this House. The President of the Local Government Board has declared quite clearly that a Bill is to be introduced this session, and I hope it will be soon introduced, whether in this House or the other. With regard to the further point to which the noble Earl referred, I think he may probably reckon that in the course of the next two or three weeks we shall have two Scottish Bills in this House to discuss.
EARL ROSEBERY: After they have been discussed in the other.
House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.