Lords Sitting of 8 July 1907

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills: Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 14).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Standing Orders Committee—Report from, that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Central London Railway Bill ought to be dispensed with, and the Bill allowed to proceed.
Read, and agreed to.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill [H. L.]. Witnesses ordered to attend the Select Committee.
London and North Western Railway Bill. Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill. Moved, That the Order made on the 20th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 18th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed.
Great Central Railway Bill. Read 3a with the Amendments; and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Great Northern and City Railway Bill. Read 3a with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board Bill [h. l.]; King Edward's Hospital Fund for London Bill [H. l.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
Southend Water Bill [H.L.]; Burnham (Somerset) Pier Bill [h. l.]. Returned
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from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Hull and Barnsley Railway Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill [H. L.]—(Fleetwood Victoria Pier Order); Barry Railway Bill; Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway (General Powers) Bill; North Staffordshire Railway Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill—(Dunstable Order). Report from the Committee of Selection. That the Lord Southampton be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Zouche of Haryngworth; read, and agreed to.
Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H. L.]; Tramways Orders Confirmation Bill [H. L.]. Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Board of Education Scheme (Hulme Trust Estates Educational) Confirmation Bill. Brought from the Commons and read la; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners. (No. 96.)

PETITIONS.
Board of Education. Petition that in any scheme of the Board, the rights of headmasters in secondary schools may be safeguarded, of Thomas Allen; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Papers relating to a Federation of the South African Colonies.
  NATAL.
  Correspondence relating to the removal of certain native prisoners from Natal. (In continuation of [Cd. 3247.] December, 1906.)
  BOARD OF EDUCATION (TRAINING COLLEGES).
  Regulations for the training of teachers and for the examination of students in training colleges.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) 1907.
  Regulations as to grants to secondary schools.

  ARMY.
  (1) War Office Report on the steps taken to provide technical instruction to soldiers to fit them for civil life; (2) Copies of War Office circular letters relating to the subject.
  Report of the War Office Committee appointed to discuss certain Militia questions with representative officers of Militia.

  CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.
  Fifty-first Report of His Majesty's Civil Service Commissioners; with appendices.
  COMMERCIAL, No. 6 (1907) (SUEZ CANAL).
  Returns of shipping and tonnage, 1904, 1905, and 1906. (In continuation of "Commercial, No. 4, 1906.")

  GOVERNMENT LABORATORY.
  Report of the principal chemist upon the work of the Government Laboratory, for the year ended 31st March, 1907; with appendices.
  Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACTS, 1870.
  Report by the Board of Trade of the grounds upon which they have dispensed with the consent of the Nazeing Parish Council in the case of the Herts and Essex Water Provisional Order.
  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury minute, dated 1st July, 1907, declaring that Richard Blake, labourer, Royal Gun Factory; War Office, was appointed without a civil service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his Department.

  LUNACY.
  Return to the Lord Chancellor of the number of visits made, and the number
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  of patients seen, by the several Commissioners in Lunacy during the six months ended 30th June, 1907.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  RAILWAY SERVANTS (HOURS OF LABOUR).
  Return in pursuance of Section 4 of the Regulations of Railways Act, 1889, of railway servants of certain classes who were on one or more occasions during the month of April, 1907, on duty on the railways of the United Kingdom for more than twelve hours at a time, or who after being on duty more than twelve hours were allowed to resume work with less than nine hours rest: Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.
  STANDING ORDERS OF THE HOUSE, ETC.
  Report from the Select Committee (with the proceeding of the Committee) made, and to be printed; Minutes of Evidence, together with an Appendix, laid on the Table, and to be delivered out. (No. 95.)
NEW BILL.
  QUALIFICATION OF WOMEN (COUNTY AND TOWN COUNCILS) (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to the capacity of women to be elected and act as members of county or town councils in Scotland vas presented by the Lord Hamilton of Dalzell; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday next. (No. 97.)

TERRITORIAL AND RESERVE FORCES BILL.
Order of the Day read for the House being put into Committee.
Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
* Viscount HARDINGE: My Lords, before the the House goes into Committee I desire, with your Lordships indulgence, to be allowed to put certain questions to my noble friend the Under-Secretary of

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State for War with regard to this Bill. I have given the noble Earl due notice of all the points on which I desire information, and I am indebted to him for his offer to give me the information for which I ask. I must confess that of late many noble Lords, on this side of the House at any rate, have felt that it was not much use asking the noble Earl any military questions, because his answer invariably was that the question should first be placed on the Paper or that the Army Council had not come to any definite decision regarding it.
My object in adopting the course I am following this afternoon is that the House may know more fully what the proposals it the Bill are, especially with regard to the County Associations, which I do not consider are at all clearly defined in the clauses of the Bill. I trust the noble Earl will forgive me for asking for this information before the House goes into Committee, but I do so from the fact that upon the organisation of these associations will depend the efficient carrying out of the Government's scheme. There are in this House many noble lords who are lords-lieutenant of counties, and as we have been led to understand in previous debates that upon their shoulders will rest the responsibility of organising the County Associations, I venture to think we shall be better able to discuss the points which concern those associations when we get into Committee if we have first obtained from the noble Earl the answers to the questions which I shall put to him. I trust that in adopting this course it will not be considered that I am taking an unusual one or acting in any captious spirit, for nothing is further from my mind. My excuse for putting the questions now must be that there was virtually no discussion on the subject of the County Associations in the House of Commons, and it is most essential, therefore, that everything connected with the Bill should be freely and fully discussed here.
The points upon which I desire an answer are as follow:—(1) Have the Government any idea what the cost of the working of the County Associations will be, also what sum will be allocated as the total for each county; (2) will offices have to be engaged for this purpose; (3) what sort of staff will be
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needed, and who will provide it; (4) what is to be the position of the deputy-lieutenants in the future, no mention having been made of them in the Bill; (5) what will be the position of the clerk to the lieutenancy; (6) will the lord-lieutenant retain his privilege for inspecting the local corps; (7) if the association raise a loan, what will be the security for it; (8) what steps are to be taken for getting officers and men as recruits; (9) will any pecuniary liability whatever be thrown on the County Associations, and who will pay any deficit; (10) how will their accounts be audited, how often, and by whom; (11) what appeal is there from the Army Council so far as its orders, schemes, and regulations are concerned, and are they bound to carry them out; (12) does not Clause 34 give the Army Council despotic power; (13) why should the commanding officer be only responsible for the training of his unit (Clause 14, b), and not for punishment for failure to fulfil that training which is put down in Clause 20 as the prescribed officer; (14) is it definitely decided that, when this Bill passes, the County Associations are to be formed simultaneously and not separately.
It will be noticed that I have not asked any questions in regard to the Militia, to which I have the honour to belong, as I understand the noble Earl the Undersecretary will shortly make a statement with regard to further concessions. But as a Militia commanding officer I would like to say this, that unless greater concessions are made, the Militia as we have known it in the past is practically dead, for I believe there is no truth in the assertion that the Militia have been saved by the compromise which has been arrived at.
*THE EARL OF MOUNT EDGCUMBE: My Lords, I, too, have given private notice to the noble Earl the Undersecretary of three Questions of a very simple character. They are—(1) whether the lord-lieutenant of the county will be constituted president of the County Association ex-officio, if he is able and willing to undertake the duties of president, or whether it is left entirely at the discretion of the Army Council to appoint him or any other person they may think fit: (2) whether the noble Earl will tell the House what are to be

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the powers and duties of the president of the association, or by whom they will be defined; and (3) whether the Government will introduce words into the Bill to make those points clear.
I think those are Questions which we, and especially those among your Lord ships who hold the office of lord-lieutenant, have a right to ask. If the duties of president are to be attached to the office of lord-lieutenant, then I think most of us who hold that office would feel that we were bound loyally to accept the additional responsibilities thrown upon us by Parliament, and by His Majesty, by whom we are appointed. But, on the other hand, as having a share in framing the Act, I think we are also bound to ascertain, as far as it is possible for us to do so, what are the additional responsibilities which we are imposing upon ourselves and upon the office which we hold. The first Question will very likely be answered by the noble Earl in dealing with an Amendment standing on the Paper in the name of my noble friend the Duke of Northumberland. But I find no other place for asking the second Question, because the office of president of the association is nowhere referred to in the Bill beyond this first mention of it, and there is not a word defining the powers and the duties of the president. It is provided that the powers and duties of the chairman and vice-chairman shall be defined in the scheme, and therefore it seems to me all the more remarkable that nothing is said with regard to the powers and duties of the president. There is nothing even said to show that the president will preside at the meetings of the association, and, if he does, how his duties are to be fitted in with those of the chairman, unless the chairman holds virtually the position of vice-president, which would not appear to be the case in the Bill. It is not that I fear the amount of work that will be thrown on lords-lieutenant so much as the uncertain and undefined responsibilities which may devolve upon him, all the more onerous for being uncertain and undefined. I hope that in the course of the debate, the noble Earl will be able to answer the Questions I have put to him.
*THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WARx (The Earl of Ports- mouth): My Lords, in reply to the Earl of Mount Edgcumbe I have to say that the position of lord-lieutenant in these associations will depend on the scheme which will be drawn up in each case, in consultation with the lord-lieutenant and, no doubt, with other important local representatives, by the Army Council. As to whether the lord-lieutenant will be constituted president of the association ex-officio, I think it would be far more convenient that we should deal with that matter when it comes up in Committee on the Amendment which stands on the Paper in the name of the Duke of Northumberland. It is our desire to consult the wishes, and certainly the dignity and self-respect in all matters, of the lord-lieutenant.
The replies to the Questions put by the noble Viscount Lord Hardinge are as follows:—(1) As stated on page 4 of the Estimate presented to Parliament (Cd. Paper 3296) the grant of £75 per company of infantry is meant to cover the administration expenses of associations. It is hoped that the cost of the working of the County Associations will be kept as low as possible. It is obvious that no fixed sum can be allocated to each county as the conditions and volume of work will necessarily vary very much. (2) The County Associations will undoubtedly require office accommodation. (3) The Bill provides for the appointment of a secretary, who will, presumably, be a salaried official, and in the larger offices additional clerical assistance for bookkeeping, etc., may be found necessary. The associations will provide what is absolutely required out of the funds at their own disposal.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: What funds?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: The funds placed at their disposal.
VISCOUNT HARDINGE: Who has the selection of the secretary?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: It is our intention that the secretary shall be selected by the Army Council when the scheme is framed.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: When the noble Earl says "funds at

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their disposal," does he mean the £75 per company?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: The funds which will be placed at their disposal by the Army Council. The answer to Question (4) is that the existing deputy-lieutenants will not as such necessarily be made members of the associations, though it is quite possible for the schemes to provide for their representation upon the association. In future it is hoped that the honour of a deputy-lieutenancy will only be bestowed upon those who have taken an active part in the work of the Territorial Army. (5) The clerk to the lieutenancy will not by virtue of this appointment hold a position on the association. (6) The reply is in the affirmative. (7) It is not contemplated that associations will raise leans except under the Public Works Loans Act for building headquarters, etc., and the security for such loans will be exactly the same as at present. (8) The Volunteers and the Yeomanry have never found it necessary to have a regular recruiting staff other than the incidental recruiting that may have been done for them by their staff-sergeants in their leisure moments. The real recruiting has all been done by the officers and men themselves, and there can be no question as to the success of the system. It is to the officers and men of the Territorial Army and the active co-operation and influence of the County Associations that we shall look for bringing in recruits. (9) The pecuniary liability of the associations will be similar to that of a corporate body. They can sue or be sued. (10) The accounts of associations will be audited annually under Clause 3 (5) of the Bill by chartered accountants. (11) Initially the appeal is to Parliament when the schemes are first laid, and any subsequent objections may be raised in j Parliament by the same methods as are at present adopted. (12) As regards regulations, Clause 34 merely amounts to a re-enactment of the existing law as set forth in Section 32 of the Interpretation Act of 1889. As regards Orders in Council, orders and schemes, as it might be held that the power of making them having once been exercised was spent, the provision in Clause 34 was inserted to clear up this doubt. (13) The officer described as the prescribed officer will in most cases undoubtedly be the command-
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ing officer. The phrase "prescribed officer" was deliberately inserted to admit of variation in the procedure should it, in practice, prove impossible for the commanding officer to do the work. (14) As far as possible, it is the intention of the Army Council to form all associations simultaneously.
LORD CLONBROCK: My Lords, I wish to ask the noble Earl who has just sat down a Question of which I have given him private notice, and which rather follows from the answer he has given to the last Question. I wish to know whether the lord lieutenant of the county, in all cases, will be consulted by the Army Council as to the formation of the County Associations. My noble friend stated that he would be consulted as to the composition of that association, but I desire to know whether he would be consulted as to the expediency of forming an association at all. In the county from which I come it is doubtful whether a County Association would not be mischievous, for we have no Volunteers in Ireland; and, so far as recruiting is concerned, I do not think it would receive any assistance from the local bodies represented on the association.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: In reply to the noble Lord I have to say that the lord-lieutenant would most certainly be consulted in the matter referred to.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: My Lords, I think the answers we have received from the noble Earl the Under-Secretary have amply justified the action taken by my noble friend behind me (Viscount Hardinge) in putting the Questions to the Government. We have a little more information now than before of this scheme, which is so vaguely expressed in the Bill. But we are in this difficult position. This House does not favour the moving of Amendments of which notice has not been given, and yet even already, after the reply which we have just heard, I can see that it will be desirable that many Amendments should be laid before the House on the very points on which the noble Earl has answered.
The noble Earl said that in large counties it might be necessary to have

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clerks. I venture to think that not only will offices and a secretary be required, but that, unless the War Office changes its customs in a remarkable way, a whole army of clerks will be required to deal with the enormous amount of correspondence which will necessarily take place. And the greatest puzzle to my mind is how the Government imagines that £75 per company, or anything in the least like that figure, will pay these expenses. I should like to ask the noble Earl whether he can lay on the Table any estimate to show why the Government think that this sum will be sufficient. We know what the establishment expenses of county councils are. Before long many of the local offices working under these County Associations will need nearly as large a staff as the county councils.
I was glad to hear that the funds which were to be at the disposal of the associations were limited to those supplied, as I understood, by Parliament. But I was a little bit alarmed when I heard that the liability of the associations would be the liability of a corporate body. What does that mean? What is the liability of these associations to be? An association will send up an estimate; suppose the expenditure exceeds that estimate, which is exceedingly likely, what will be the liability? Will every member of the association have to put his hand in his pocket and make up the deficit? It is not the same thing as the liability of a local authority, because the local authority has the rates at its back. This association will have no security of that kind. I hope some noble Lord on the Ministerial Bench will explain what is meant by the statement that the liability of these associations will be the same as that of a corporate body, because it is a somewhat alarming dictum. There was another point which struck me very forcibly. The noble Earl was asked what appeal there was against Orders of the Army Council, and he said that the appeal was to Parliament when the schemes were laid before Parliament, and, I suppose I may include, when any alteration in the scheme is made. But there is no provision in the Bill for giving Parliament any power of expressing a voice. The provision simply is that they shall be laid on the Table of the House. It is, of course, a matter
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of common knowledge that Parliament has not the power of rejecting unless it be said that the scheme shall not come into force until it has been laid on the Table of Parliament for a certain number of days, and means are provided by which exception can be taken to the scheme. Unless such words are inserted the protection we have is illusory.
The noble Earl, as I understood, stated that Clause 34 only preserves a power which now exists. I do not understand what that means. Is there a power now on the part of the Army Council to make any Order, scheme, or regulation, to vary or revoke any such Order, scheme, or regulation, and to provide that such Orders, schemes, or regulations shall have the effect of an Act of Parliament? I am informed that the effect of those words is that appeal is impossible against those Orders, schemes, or regulations: that no Court of law would entertain any appeal against an Order framed under that section. If that is so, it is really giving to the Army Council the powers of enacting the law of the land. Of course, if the noble Lord tells us that that is already so, I can only confess my ignorance of the fact, for I have been quite unaware that there was any power in any body in this country to make the laws of the land except Parliament. I do not know whether the noble Earl the Under-Secretary or any noble Lord on the Front Bench opposite can satisfy us on those points: but if not, I am afraid we must raise Amendments as the Bill goes on, whether we have given notice of them or not.
No one rising from the Front Ministerial Bench,
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE said: My Lords, are we really to have no answer to the Questions put by the noble Duke? They seem to me to deal with fundamental matters which lie at the very root of this part of the Bill. Lot me repeat them, if I am not unduly wearying your Lordships. We should like to know upon what base of fact this estimate of £75 per company has been arrived at. We also want to know how the corporate liability of the County Associations, which the noble Earl has revealed to a somewhat surprised House this evening, is to work. There is all the difference in the world between the position of these

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County Associations and a municipal body of the usual kind. The municipal body has the rates to fall back upon. What source have the County Associations to depend on except this grant of £75 per company? The inference is obvious: it is that the association will have to make good the deficit, if one should arise, out of private benevolence. That is not a very encouraging prospect for those who are to be invited to take their place on these County Associations. There is also the question of appeals; and, lastly, there is the most important question of all—namely, whether the Army Council is to be given the right of making what I would call excrescences on this Act of Parliament without let or hindrance. I do hope that some noble Lord opposite will give us a little enlightenment on these important points before the debate proceeds further.
*THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE): My Lords, I have never, I think, in the course of my experience in this House, known a discussion quite so irregular as this. My noble friend behind me was entitled to speak once upon going into Committee, and he has been bombarded with Questions from all quarters by noble Lords who have made beforehand, very kindly, precisely the speeches which they will make when these Amendments are reached. I do not propose to say anything about Clause. 34. I shall be quite prepared to deal with it when the noble Duke's Amendment is reached. When that time comes it will be entirely appropriate to discuss the whole question, but at this stage it seems to me both unusual and irregular to deal with the matter at all.
As regards the first Question, which the noble Marquess put for the second time, about the corporate liability, I think it is undoubtedly contemplated that private funds will be forthcoming for the purpose of these associations, if required. But is that entirely unknown at present? Have none of your Lordships ever been asked to subscribe for Volunteer purposes? I should have thought there are none of your Lordships who have not, and what is an infinitely more serious matter at present is that commanding officers of these bodies in many cases have been forced to incur liability, which they could often ill-afford to meet, in
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connection with the regiments which they command. If any liability of that kind is to be incurred it is far more proper that it should fall on the County Associations than on commanding officers.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, it was with some astonishment that I heard the noble Earl complain of the irregularity of this discussion. It seems to me one of the most regular discussions that could take place. Upon going into Committee on this Bill we have ventured to put one or two very important questions, and the noble Earl seems to think that a very irregular proceeding. It is neither irregular nor is it inconsiderate, for all my noble friends who have put those questions took the trouble to give private notice to the noble Earl the Under-Secretary.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I only received notice this morning.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: But all the information which the noble Earl requires is teeming in the War Office, and ho only had to ask for it. Therefore, I think the complaint that our discussion is an improper one is rather ungenerous. What about this corporate liability? The noble Earl tells us that if the associations spend more than they are granted by Parliament the members will have to find the difference out of their own pockets. That is a very important piece of information from the Government, and any gentleman who proposes to form part of an association will have to consider very carefully before he definitely determines on the line he will take, and one of the considerations that will occur to him will be how much money will be obtainable from Parliament in the first instance. Now, what information have we obtained from the noble Earl the Under-Secretary as to the money which Parliament is going to provide? The noble Earl, with a show of great precision, said he thought £75 per company would be granted. Seventy-five pounds per company, my Lords! Why, there are in the county to which I belong two Volunteer battalions and a Yeomanry regiment—say twenty-four companies in all. Twenty-four times £75 works out at £1,800. Does the noble Earl gravely tell us that all that will be required in the county of Hertford for this purpose will be £1,800, and, if

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not, the money must be made up out of private sources?
Let me ask the Government whether they have not formed some estimate in their own minds of what the total cost of this Territorial Army is likely to be. I put that definite question with great respect to noble Lords who sit on the Front Bench opposite. Have they formed any idea whatever of the cost which this Territorial Army is likely to throw on public funds; and, if they have formed such an opinion, will they communicate it to Parliament? I have a further question to put on this matter of cost— How is it going to be arrived at? The Bill is not very clear on this subject. Apparently there are statements of probable expenditure to be sent by the associations to the Army Council, so that it seems that the initiative in this respect is to lie with the associations. I should like to be informed whether that is so, and whether the amount of expenditure which is to be incurred is to be initiated by the associations or by the Army Council. That is a very important matter, and one which seems to mo to be capable of very clear answer.
Then notice it is said that the grant is to be on the basis of this statement. That seems clear so far, but one is thrown into complete confusion by the third subsection of Clause 3, which says that the money so granted—
"shall be applicable to any of the purposes specified in the approved statements in accordance with which the money has been granted."
So that after the money is granted it need not be devoted to the object for which it was asked, but to any of the objects without distinction. It is important to know who will initiate the statements, and whether, when they are sent to the Army Council, the money granted in pursuance of particular subjects will be confined to those subjects. What is the general conclusion from the state of things revealed in your Lordships' House this afternoon I It is this, that the Government would have been well advised if they had adopted the suggestion we made a few weeks ago, and laid before Parliament a model scheme of how they proposed to work this Act. Had that been done, we should have been able to understand far better than we do now what the proposals of the Government are. I would venture to press for answers to
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these questions. Upon what principle is the sum of money which is to be granted to these associations to be arrived at? Is the initiative to lie with the associations or with the Army Council? And when the money is granted, will it be applicable only to such purposes contained in each statement, or be used generally for any of the subjects in respect of which a demand has been made?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON): My Lords, I do not rise to answer the questions which have been put by the noble Marquess. Indeed, I am not in a very fit state to address your Lordships at all. But I must say one word upon his remark in respect to the objection which was taken by my noble friend behind me to a good deal of what has gone on in this discussion. The noble Marquess called the objection ungenerous. I quite agree with my noble friend behind me that it is not regular that questions relating to particular clauses in the Bill, which are about to be discussed when the House is in Committee, should be discussed at length upon the Motion to go into Committee: and I still further think that it is obviously unfair that a succession of questions should be put to my noble friend the ruder-Secretary, because my noble friend is not entitled to speak more than once in this discussion. In these circumstances, if these questions are put to him one after another it is impossible, consistent with the regulations of this House, for him to reply to them. I do not make any complaint of noble Lords opposite, because we are apt, I think, to get into irregular habits from time to time; but I think it is worth remembering that upon one stage of a Bill noble Lords can speak as often as they like, and upon all other stages they can only speak once.
House in Committee, according to Order.
(The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.)
Clause 1:—
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid that before moving the Amendment standing in his name on the Paper, it would probably be for the convenience of the

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House if he explained more or less the general purposes of the clause. Under this clause a separate scheme would be made for each county in England and Scotland establishing an association for the county. The scheme would fix the date for the establishment of the association and describe it by the appropriate name. Generally speaking it would constitute the lord-lieutenant president of the association exceptional cases some other person might be designated as president. The scheme would fix the total number of members of the association and provide how many members were to be officers of the Territorial Forces, representatives of county and borough councils, and, if there was a University in the county, of the University, and how many were to be co-opted members. The only limitation was that the number of military members must constitute at least half of the whole number of the association. In the first instance, the military members would probably be appointed by the Army Council, and possibly the scheme might provide for the officers of the Territorial Forces being given some voice in the appointment of the military members in the future. The representative members under the Bill would be appointed by the Army Council, but the councils and other bodies to be represented must be consulted before the appointment was made. Probably the scheme would provide for the representatives being members of the bodies or University to be represented by them. The co-opted members would, as the word implied, be appointed by the other members of the association, and the scheme would probably provide for a certain proportion of the co-opted members being representative of employers and labour associations. There was no limitation in the Bill as to the method of appointment of the chairman and vice-chairman of the associations. He had no doubt that in some cases the lord-lieutenant would also be chairman. The scheme could therefore provide for the appointment being made either by the Army Council or by the association, but probably it would be found expedient for the scheme itself to designate who the first chairman and vice-chairman were to be. Then the scheme would provide for the chairman or vice-chairman when presiding at a meeting of the
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association to have a casting vote and to be able to decide points of order. The Bill was silent as to whether or not the chairman or vice-chairman must be chosen from amongst the members of the association. It might conceivably be desirable in some counties to go outside the members of the association. The scheme could provide for either of these alternatives. The scheme would also deal with the term of office of members of the association, whether they should go out of office simultaneously, or whether a certain number were to retire in the year. The greater part of the business would be transacted through committees, the chairman and vice-chairman being ex-officio members of every committee. Provision was also made for the appointment of a secretary and other salaried officials of the association, the salary of the secretary coming out of the funds granted by the Army Council to the association. Probably the first secretary would be designated in the scheme, it being of importance that the Army Council should have some control over his appointment. It might be found possible, however, to provide for future appointments being made by the Army Council, after consultation, with the association. It would also probably be found necessary to provide that the secretary should not be removable except with the consent of the Army Council. The scheme would also provide for the accountability of the secretary. There was no power of surcharging the members of the association, and it might be found necessary for the Army Council to exercise a check over the finances of the association through the secretary. This might be done by requiring all cheques to be countersigned by the secretary and holding him responsible for any improper payments, and for that purpose requiring from him a fidelity guarantee. The scheme would further enable certain general officers, such as the general officer commanding the district, to attend the meetings of the association and to give their views on any subject under discussion, but without having the right to vote. Any general officer so authorised by the scheme to attend meetings of the association would, if unable to attend himself, be entitled to send another officer to represent him. In the case of very large and populous counties, such as

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Lancashire, and the West Riding of Yorkshire, it might be found impossible for a single association to transact the whole of the business of the county, and the number of members on the association might be so large as to make the body unwieldy. In such cases a country might be divided into two or more parts, and a sub-association constituted for each part. The sub-association would probably consist, solely of members of the central association, and their relations to the central association and to the other sub-associations would be regulated by the scheme. For instance, in matters of finance probably the scheme would provide for each sub-association sending in its estimates to the central association, which would consider and possibly modify them before sending them in to the Army Council as the estimates for the whole county. It was not intended to make use of the power of dividing counties except in very exceptional cases and circumstances, and it was not contemplated splitting up a county into districts corresponding to the present districts of the Volunteers. He added by way of explanation that it was the intention that the County Associations should be established after consultation with the lord-lieutenant. The noble Lord concluded by moving an Amendment by inserting in the first clause, after "other than the Regulars," the words "and their Reserves," with the object of making it clear that the Reserve Forces would not come under the control of the County Associations. The Amendment would not prevent the associations exercising power with regard to the care of Reservists, of which special mention was made in the Bill, and which would be conferred upon them under Clause 2. Subsection (2).
Amendment moved—
"In page 1, line 8, after the word 'Regulars,' to insert the words 'and their Reserves.'"— (The Earl of portsmouth.)
THE EARL OF MOUNT EDGCUMBE: pointed out that the noble Earl had not answered his second Question referring to the powers and duties of the president, whoever the president might be. All reference to that matter was omitted from the Bill and also from the noble Earl's statement.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Those points will be settled by the scheme when it is drawn up.
LORD BELPER:rose to order and asked what the Question was that was before the House and whether the powers and duties of the president had anything to do with the Amendment to insert the words "and. their Reserves."
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDsaid they had been almost called to order by the noble Marquess the Leader of the House for doing what he would have thought was a regular thing, namely, discussing the whole of these matters on the Motion to go into Committee. They were told by the noble Marquess that the proper time to ask questions was when the Bill was in Committee, but now they had got into Committee it was complained of if they did not confine themselves strictly to the particular point. The scheme was utterly indefinite. The Bill was one of an entirely novel nature, and two-thirds of it had never been discussed in the House of Commons. Therefore, it was the duty of their Lordships to direct attention to these matters. They could not allow a Cabinet to pass Bills without any discussion whatever.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid that any discussion which had reference to the Amendment now before the Committee would be in order. When the subsequent clauses, in which the matters were mentioned upon which Questions had been asked, were reached, the particular points referred to could be dealt with. But he would put it to the noble Earl the Lord Chairman whether the Question now before the Committee was not the insertion of the words, "and their Reserves," and whether it was not necessary for that Amendment to be disposed of before other matters could be discussed.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (The Earl of ONSLOW)agreed that other opportunities would occur, in the course of the Committee Stage, for raising the various points referred to. At the same time he thought that the statement

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which the noble Earl the Under-Secretary had made would have been more appropriate on the, Motion that the clause should stand part of the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDmoved to insert words in Subsection 3 (e), to make it clear that the lord-lieutenant was to be the president of the association. The noble Duke asked for the ruling of the Committee with regard to the putting of questions. He said there was no reference to deputy lieutenants until long after the scheme had been passed. Where, then, was the opportunity of asking questions with regard to deputy lieutenants? The noble Earl the Lord Chairman had expressed the opinion that the statement of the noble Earl the Under-Secretary would have come better at the end of the clause; but then the clause would have been disposed of, and noble Lords would have had no chance of moulding Amendments according to the statement of the Under secretary. He ventured to think, that the course first adopted, of discussing the whole, matter on the Motion to go into Committee, was the proper one, but the Government had deliberately declared that that was out of order. The Under-Secretary had purposely refrained from making the statement he had just made until they were in Committee. The Government had done all they could to prevent a general discussion, and the House was consequently in a difficult position. Noble Lords desired answers to many questions on the whole scheme before they could frame their Amendments. With regard to the Amendment standing in his name, he thought that the position of the lord-lieutenant was such that, until he had shown himself incompetent, he should have the opportunity of being the president of the association. Was the present the right moment to ask what the duties of the president were? The president need not be the chairman. Then what was to be his duty? He (the noble Duke) would confine himself to that question for the moment, but he had a great many more to ask.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 1, after the words 'county or' to insert the words 'if he do not assent then.' "—(The Duke of Northumberland.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHpointed out that the lord-lieutenant might be either unfit or unable to undertake the duties of president, but he suggested that the object of the noble Duke might be met by making the subsection read, "for constituting the lieutenant of the county, or failing him, such other person as the Army Council may think fit, president of the association."
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE:said the point was quite plain. The Government wanted the Army Council to decide whether or not the lord-lieutenant was fit, but the noble Duke wanted the lord-lieutenant himself to say whether he was willing to be the president. Surely it was reasonable that the lord-lieutenant should be allowed this option, and that the matter should not be left to possibly the caprice of the Army Council.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHreplied that the primary object was to have military efficiency, and it might be the case in some counties that the lord-lieutenant, by age or other reasons, was not fit for this work. The Government did not desire that it should be obligatory to appoint such a lord-lieutenant president of the association.
THE EARL OF MOUNT EDGCUMBEasked if it was permissible, for him now to put his Question as to what the powers and duties of the president were to be, and by what authority they were to be defined.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid the powers and duties attaching to the position of president would be defined under the scheme. The president, if he was not chairman, would, he understood, be an honorary member of the association, and would always take the chair when he was present.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Over the head of the chairman?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Certainly.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Then, as I understand it, the duty of the president, as apart from that of the chairman, is that he shall take the chair whether the chairman is present or not?
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDthought the lord-lieutenant might be removed altogether from the office if he was not to be competent to take the chair.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: The noble Duke has misunderstood what I said. He would preside if he were present.
*THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, I must try and make this matter clear if I can. I think there has been some misapprehension. Of course, it is our object, so far as possible, to respect the great historical and personal position of the lord-lieutenant, but the Government do contemplate cases in which the lord-lieutenant, possibly from age, or from his never having had anything to do with military affairs in any capacity, which is conceivable, would not be the proper person to be the working chairman of the association. That is a position which I think the House will agree is a possible one. But if he were president he would take the chair at a meeting whoever else was there. There are a number of analogies in societies of all descriptions, where some distinguished person takes the chair on the rare occasions when he attends, the real work being done by a working chairman or vice-chairman. That is the position which it is contemplated under certain circumstances that a lord-lieutenant will hold. In constituting these associations you are placing new duties on the lord-lieutenant, and it is hoped that in future lords-lieutenant will be appointed with the view of their being working chairmen of these associations; but meanwhile there may be cases in which the lord-lieutenant is really unable to undertake those duties, even though he might be willing to do so. Therefore we desire to leave this loophole to the Army Council, and I hope the Committee will accept the words proposed as an alternative by my noble friend behind me.
THE EARL OF HAREWOODasked whether, in the case of a county which had been divided, the lord-lieutenant, should he be president of the county association, would also be expected to preside over the sub-associations? This was a somewhat important question, and one which he would like to have cleared up before voting on the Amendment.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH:said that if the lord-lieutenant was president of the association he would also be president of the sub-associations, but he need not be chairman of all or any of the sub-associations unless he so desired.
THE EARL OF HAREWOOD: Then the sub-associations resolve themselves into committees of the large association?
LORD NEWTON:said he was anxious to express a favourable opinion if he could with regard to this Bill. One of the lords-lieutenant whom he knew was a Quaker. It was obviously undesirable that a lord-lieutenant who was a Quaker should be placed at the head of a semi-military organisation, and therefore he thought the Government were exercising a wise discretion in maintaining the provision in the modified form of words suggested by Lord Portsmouth. With regard to the objection which was apparently entertained by the noble Karl on the cross benches, Lord Rosebery to the president occupying the chair when he was present, he could only say that so far as his experience went, this was done in other bodies. He happened to be president of a political association, and when he was present he was allowed to take the chair without protest although the chairman might himself be there. It was a perfectly natural thing under the circumstances, and he was happy to think that on this point he could support His Majesty's Government.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: The noble Lord is mistaken as to my object. It was not objection or criticism, but elucidation.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I do not think we are very

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far apart on this point. I gather that there will be, in the view of the Government, two kinds of presidents. There is, in the first place, the lord-lieutenant who will be what you might call a real working president. In the second place, there is the lord-lieutenant who will hold the office in a more or less honorary capacity, with a chairman, who has been described in another place as a man of business, to carry on the bulk of the work. What I would rather like to elicit is whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to give a lord-lieutenant at any rate the refusal of the honorary presidency, or whether they desire to preserve to themselves the right of refusing even an honorary presidency in certain cases.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ELGIN)said it was the intention of the Bill that the lord-lieutenant should be appointed in all cases in which that would be at all practicable, the only reason for putting in the reservation being that there might be cases in which it was inexpedient or inconvenient for the lord-lieutenant to act. Obviously, if that were so the decision must rest with somebody, and His Majesty's Government thought that, on the whole, this being a scheme for military defence, it was better to put upon the Army Council the responsibility of giving; of withholding approval.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I venture to hope that after what has been said, my noble friend behind me will not press his Amendment.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDsaid he would withdraw the Amendment he had moved and substitute the words suggested by the noble Earl the Undersecretary of State for War,
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2. line 1. after the word 'or,' to insert the words 'failing him.' "—(The Duke of Northumberland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
*LORD ZOUCHE OF HARYNGWORTHmoved to leave out "one-half" and to
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insert "two-thirds," his object being to ensure that the military element in the proposed County Associations should prevail. He thought this highly desirable, inasmuch as the functions of the associations were almost entirely of a military nature. They would have to do with the administration of a large section of the armed forces of the Crown, and the expression in the Bill that the officers representative of all arms and branches of the Territorial Forces should be not less than one-half of the whole number of the association would rather seem Do indicate that the Government had some idea of this sort in their mind when they framed the section. But it rather depended on the exact meaning of the expression "one-half" and how it was to be worked. In the event of unavoidable absence the one-half might be in a minority in a vote on some important question. It was desirable to make it perfectly clear that the military element should as far as possible prevail for another reason—namely, to prevent any risk in the future of political intrigue or difficulty of that sort in the County Associations. He did not attach any particular virtue or magic to the exact fraction which he moved, and if the Government would introduce words to ensure that as far as possible, the military members were not in a minority, his object would be gained.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 7, to leave out 'one-half,' and to insert ' two-thirds.' "—(Lord Zouche of Haryngworth.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid the civil and military elements on the association had been very carefuly worked out, and the proviso now in the Bill, that at least one-half should be military representatives, appeared to them thoroughly to safeguard the interests of units from their own especial point of view, and to give them adequate representation. He would direct their Lordships' attention to the subsequent Subsections (e) and (f)—
"(e) For the appointment by the Army Council, where it appears desirable, and after consultation with the authorities to he represented, of representatives of county and county borough councils and Universities wholly or partly within the county.

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"(f) For the appointment of such number of co-opted members as the scheme may prescribe, including, if thought desirable, representatives of the interests of employers and workmen."
It was of the utmost importance that the association should embrace the various interests of the county and be thoroughly representative. If the Amendment which the noble Lord had just moved were accepted by the Government the effect would be that interests would in many cases be shut out which ought to be represented if the associations were to be really successful. If it did not have that effect, it would make the association unnecessarily unwieldy, and to secure the necessary number of officers of the territorial units would necessitate bringing on to the association a number of comparatively junior officers. The Government were quite at one with the noble Lord as to the importance of securing that the military opinion should prevail.
LORD RAGLAN: Am I right in thinking that the first military representative on the association will be appointed by the Army Council?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Yes.
LORD RAGLANfurther asked whether this gentleman would have the right of refusing to sit on the association. He could not imagine that it would be much encouragement to officers to join the Territorial Forces if they were told that they were liable to be put on these associations, which might involve the compulsory display of considerable private benevolence on their part. It would be interesting to know whether they would have the right to refuse to serve.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My noble friend need not be alarmed on that point. It will be purely voluntary.
LORD RAGLAN: Then what will happen if the inducements are so few that no persons will go on the associations?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: We do not anticipate such an unsatisfactory state of things.
LORD HARRISinquired if it was contemplated to give any protection to minorities on the associations. He took it that of the military half of the association a very large proportion would be Volunteer commanding officers. He imagined that the idea would be to put on a representative of as many corps as existed in the county. The Yeomanry were in a considerable minority, and as the funds were to be distributed by a vote of the association he would like to know what protection the Yeomanry had. Were the Government going to take care that some protection was given to that arm, the representatives of which would be largely outnumbered in voting power?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid this was a matter which had been in the mind of the Government, and they would do their best under any scheme to protect legitimate minority interests.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The Amendment before the Committee is that of my noble friend behind me, to increase the military element from one-half to two-thirds. I rather hope he will not press this Amendment upon the Committee, and for this reason. We all desire that these County Associations should be made as popular as possible, and we have heard things to-night which have made it clear that we cannot afford to do anything which might diminish that popularity. I cannot help thinking that if they are given a too military complexion public confidence in them will be abated, because, as we all know, there is a great deal of suspicion in the country against anything like militarising tendencies. I am afraid that if as many as two-thirds of the members were to be soldiers we should find that representatives of trade unions, municipal bodies, and Universities, particularly when they knew that their appointment entailed liabilities which might be of an onerous character, would fight shy of taking that part which we all desire they should take in these associations.
*LORD ZOUCHE OF HARYNGWORTH: intimated that after what had been said he would not press his Amendment to a division. His only object in moving it had been to secure that care should be

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taken by the Army Council that the military element should always be in a position to be able to assert its views without running the risk of being swamped by people who had not had technical experience.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD BELPERmoved an Amendment to secure that schemes for the appointment by the Army Council of representatives of county and county borough councils and Universities should provide that the appointment should be made not only "after consultation with," but "on the nomination of" the authorities to be represented. He said the Secretary of State had had an interview on this subject with a deputation of the County Councils Association, who thought that these representatives should be real representatives, nominated or suggested in some way by the councils themselves. As the Bill stood, the representatives appointed might not be the best ones. He very much doubted whether the word " representative " interpreted in an Act of Parliament necessarily meant a representative selected by the county or borough council themselves for the purpose of being put on this association. That being the case, it was surely better not to use words which might give rise to misconception when they came to be interpreted. On the other hand, the words in his Amendment were recognised by Parliament as meaning exactly the same as was meant in this clause. It would be remembered that considerable discussion took place upon this particular point in the clauses which dealt with the schemes under the Education Act of 1902. In that case the county council wished to get representatives from certain learned bodies, but desired to keep the appointment of those gentlemen in their own hands; and the words that were used in that Act were that the scheme—
"Shall provide for the appointment by the council, on the nomination or recommendation, where it appears desirable, of the bodies," etc.
The result was that the county council asked the University, for instance, to suggest to them gentlemen whom they thought it would be desirable to appoint, but the county council retained the
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appointment in their own hands; and if one of the persons nominated failed, and the other was not one that the county council thought would be a desirable member, they could again approach the University and ask that other names should be suggested. That was, he understood, exactly the process which it was proposed to adopt in this case. The noble Earl the Under-Secretary had stated that "probably" members of the county council would be the representatives placed on the associations. He hoped that the noble Earl meant "certainly," because he did not think it would be at all desirable that somebody outside the county council, and not on the nomination of the county council, should be selected as a representative of the county council. However, that might be, if the intention of the clause was to allow the county councils to suggest names and to give the Army Council the absolute power of appointment, it would be far better to use words which had been recognised by Parliament before, the meaning of which was well known, and which would not give rise to any question hereafter.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 10, after the word 'with,' to insert the words 'and on the nomination of.' " —(Lord Belper.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he could not accept the Amendment in the form in which it was moved. The fact that the councils must be consulted was proof that due regard would be paid to the representations of the county councils. At the same time the Army Council would, at first, best understand the qualifications that were necessary, and they would look to the local authority to help them to obtain the persons possessing those qualifications. It was in deference to the representations of the deputation from the County Councils Association, referred to by Lord Belper, that the clause was amended in the shape in which it now stood. He would accept the words "and on the recommendation of," if that would meet the noble Lord.
LORD BELPERsaid that if the Government approached county councils with an idea that they were suspicious of

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them it would not tend to make matters run smoothly. But county councils would co-operate very warmly if it were shown that there would be confidence in their recommendation. He would accept the word "recommendation" now, with the opportunity of reconsidering the point on Report, if necessary.
On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
*LORD HAVERSHAM: moved to amend Subsection (g) so as to provide that the chairman and vice-chairman should be elected by the County Association and not appointed by the Army Council. He saw no reason why the practice followed in every other local authority, from county council to parish council, should not be adopted in the case of these County Associations. The selection of chairman was a very essential point in the good conduct of the meetings, and it was desirable that the best business men in the counties should preside over these associations. How, he asked, were the officials at the War Office to know who would make the best chairman in a distant county? He ventured to think there was likely to be considerable friction between the County Associations and the Army Council on the question of these appointments, and whenever there was a failure it would be laid to the account of the appointed chairman.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 18, to leave out the word 'appoint' and to insert the word 'election.' "— (Lord Haversham.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid the Army Council felt that it was very important to get an efficient and effective chairman to start the scheme, and they would, therefore, like to reserve the appointment of the first chairman. But he was quite prepared to bring up on Report words which would secure that, apart from the first chairman, the election should be with the association.
THE EARL OF MOUNT-EDGCUMBEasked whether it was to be an annual or permanent appointment.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he thought the idea was that it would be
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from year to year. That point would be dealt with in the scheme.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDasked who would willingly accept the position of chairman when he was to be displaced on occasions by a president chosen by somebody else than the association, with a secretary, chosen by somebody else, who might thwart him at every turn, and with a vice-chairman, who was to be his right-hand man, selected not by the body over whom the chairman was to preside, but by the Army Council.
LORD LUCASdid not think the appointment of the chairman by the Army Council would be arbitrary. It was hoped that in most cases where the lord-lieutenant would accept the position, he would himself act, and the appointment of chairman would only arise where the lord-lieutenant accepted the presidency, but did not take the chairmanship. The reservation of the appointment of the first chairman would prevent the possible tendency to appoint someone more for his social qualifications and power in the county than for his actual capacity to act in that position. As regarded the position of the president, surely the noble Duke would not expect that when the lord-lieutenant of the county attended a meeting he should take a subordinate position to his own chairman. It was the obvious corollary to the requirement that the lord-lieutenant should in every possible case be president, that he should be allowed to attend as often as he could, and, when he did attend, should take the chair.
LORD METHUENthought everything must depend on whether the appointment was for a year or for life.
LORD NEWTONasked what language would have been used by noble Lords opposite, supposing this Bill had been brought in by an effete Conservative administration, and they had proposed that the Army Council should dictate to these associations as to who was to be their chairman? What became of all the talk about trusting the people? The Government dared not trust their

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own associations. The only consistent person on the Ministerial side of the House was the noble Lord who had moved this Amendment, and he hoped he would be consistent enough to take a division.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDwished to know why these associations should be thought to be more unfit to choose their chairman than every parish and district council in the country.
LORD MONKSWELLsaid that, as the Government had proposed a compromise, it really was important to know whether the first chairman was to hold office for a year or for life.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: All I said was that he would probably hold office for a year. He will certainly not hold office for life.
LORD MONTAGU Of BEAULIEUsaid that on that point hung the whole question. He hoped the Committee would have more information before they divided.
*LORD HAVERSHAM thoughtthat in view of the compromise suggested by the noble Earl the Under-Secretary— that after the first appointment the selection should rest in the hands of the association—noble Lords opposite would agree to the withdrawal of the Amendment.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I do not think my noble friend has quite gauged the feeling of this side of the House. We are anxious that these County Associations should start with all the circumstances in their favour, and many of us are under the impression that the circumstances will be much more favourable to them if at the very outset there is not imposed upon them by the Army Council a chairman who may not be in their opinion the most suitable person for the post. Therefore, I for one, should vote for the Amendment of the noble Lord, particularly as we have been unable to elicit from the noble Earl in charge of the Bill particulars as to the length of the term of service which is to be assigned to these chairmen. The position is not to be held for life, but it
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may be held for a considerable number of years, and that predisposes me in favour of the noble Lord's Amendment.
THE EARL OF ELGINsaid his noble friend had stated that this might be an annual appointment or for a term of years. If it was not an annual appointment, he should say it would be an appointment for three years or something of that kind. The Government were anxious to start these associations as soon as possible, and they were of opinion that it would facilitate their working, in the first instance, if the Army Council put the first chairmen in the schemes. He could not help thinking that the arrangement explained by his noble friend by which on the first occasion the appointment of chairman would be made by the Army Council, and on subsequent occasions the association would have the right of electing him, would be the most convenient.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsuggested as a compromise that the Army Council should nominate the chairman for a term not exceeding three years.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid this suggestion did not seem to be on the face of it at all an unreasonable one, and he would consider the matter before the Report stage and bring up words then.
LORD HAVERSHAMwas afraid he would be compelled to take a vote after what had been said by the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Consequential Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDmoved an Amendment to provide that the appointment of the secretary and other officers should be made by the association. He asked whether he correctly understood the Under-Secretary to say that the salary of the secretary of the association would be paid by the Government. Was it to be outside the £75 per company, or to be included in that amount, and did it also apply to the staff? He did not think that the Army Council were the

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best body to select the person who was to act as secretary to the association. The main complaint which county councils had at the present moment against Standing Joint Committees was that those committees selected their own clerk and not the county council. They would have the same feeling with regard to these associations, who would naturally desire to elect their own staffs. He hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 24, after the word 'appointment' to insert the words 'by the association.' " —(The Duke of Northumberland.)
LORD RAGLAN: gathered that the Secretary was to be appointed by the Army Council, to be paid by the Army Council, and not to be dismissed without the consent of the Army Council. Therefore he would be the servant, not of the association, but of the Army Council. Was that correct?
*LORD BLYTHSWOODsaid he believed he heard from the other side that the secretary was also to look after the pay and finances of the association. He would like to know, if that was to be the case, whether the secretary was to be responsible for the accounts to the association, to the War Office, or to the Army Council.
*EARL FORTESCUEsaid that whoever was responsible for the finances of the association would be accountable to the War Office, on whom the loss would fall if a secretary should bolt. Would the War Office still be responsible for his conduct if the appointment were made by the association?
LORD MONKSWELLsuggested that the noble Earl might tell the House what other officers were to be appointed.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he could not acept the Amendment. It was quite true that if the Army Council appointed the secretary, the War Office would be responsible if, to use the noble Earl's phrase, he bolted with the money. As to the other officers, they had not specified them in the Bill, because they
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did not know what other officers might be required. He contended it was essential for the Army Council to retain the appointment of the secretary in its own hands. He was to be the chief medium of communication between the association and the Army Council on matters of administration on the one hand, and between the general commanding and the association on matters of training on the other. It was, therefore, of the greatest importance that he should be a man with knowledge of military procedure as well as of business capacity, and his choice would require a great deal of care.
LORD AMPTHILLsuggested that the appointment of a secretary and other officers of the association should be made "subject to the approval of the Army Council."
LORD RIBBLESDALEasked who would pay for the undetermined number of officers. Were they to be paid by the County Associations?
LORD SALTOUNasked whether the secretary was to be a military officer, a non-commissioned officer, or a civilian.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: said his question—namely, whether the pay of the secretary would be outside the £75—had not been answered.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I cannot exactly answer off-hand the question put by Lord Saltoun, but the secretary may, and probably will, be a retired military officer.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: Is the pay of the secretary to come out of the £75 per company?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Yes.
*LORD BLYTHSWOODasked whether the secretary would be accountable to the Army Council for the money that passed through his hands. The £75 per company would not pay for the clerks; it would not pay for anything. The members of the County Associations were apparently to be responsible for all the

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money necessary over the £75 per company. He ventured to think the Government would not get a single person to join the associations with such a responsibility as that.
THE DUKE OF RUTLANDinquired what was meant by the "accountability" of the officers. Whom were they to account to, and what were they to be responsible for? What, in fact, was the meaning of the phrase?
LORD RIBBLESDALEsaid he would like an answer to his question regarding the pay for the undetermined number of officers.
VISCOUNT MIDLETONurged the Government to accept the suggestion of Lord Ampthill, for the appointment of the officers by the association would meet the difficulty. It was obvious that for the War Office to appoint all the officers of an association administered by a number of gentlemen who would have very heavy responsibility would place them in a most unusual position. He thought that if the noble Earl in charge of the Bill could see his way to allow the associations to appoint their own officers with the approval of the War Office the difficulty might be met.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsuggested that the noble Duke's Amendment should be withdrawn for the present. Between now and the Report stage he would consider whether he could accept the Amendment.
VISCOUNT ESHERsuggested that, in lieu of Lord Ampthill's words, Paragraph (i) should be amended on the lines of Paragraph (e) and should read—
"(i) For the appointment of a secretary and other officers of the association, on the recommendation of the association."
LORD AMPTHILL: It is not the same thing.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he would not object to the words if put in the way suggested by the noble Viscount.
LORD AMPTHILL: expressed the hope that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill
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would accept the noble Duke's Amendment, with the words "subject to the approval of the Army Council" added, on the understanding that the wording might be modified on Report if thought necessary, after further consideration.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I accept the Amendment on that understanding.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDsaid that, having withdrawn his Amendment as on the Paper, he now moved it in the form in which the noble Earl the Under-Secretary had agreed to accept it.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 24, after the word 'appointment,' to insert the words 'by the association, subject to the approval of the Army Council.' " —(The Duke of Northumberland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUexplained that the object of the next Amendment on the Paper in his name was to elicit information from the Undersecretary as to what was meant by the term "sub-association."
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 42, after the word 'another,' to insert the words 'and providing each sub-association shall comprise an area not less than now allocated to a volunteer regiment.' "— —(Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHdid not think the Amendment really necessary. The county would be the usual area for each association, and only where the population or the exceptional nature of an area rendered administration by a single association difficult would it be necessary to sub-divide a county. He referred to such counties as Lancashire, the West Riding, and, possibly, London. Such sub-associations would, therefore, obviously administer an area which would have no relation to that now identified with Volunteer regiments.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LOVATsaid he brought forward the Amendment standing in his name

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in order to ascertain how far it was intended to proceed with the idea of the division as the military unit. If this scheme was to be a success it must have some driving power, and it would be readily admitted that in a great number of counties the driving power could only be secured where there was interest behind it. In grouping such a number of counties together as would produce a division they gave some tangible object at which to aim. He did not see how any county could be interested in producing a portion of a regiment, and when the time of training arrived to lose sight of that unit because it went to train in another county. He suggested that some such paragraph as he had placed on the Paper should be introduced in order definitely to point out that the division was the thing which was aimed at. In many counties there would be difficulty in running the associations because the £75 per company would not more than pay the secretary and other officers, but if power were given of grouping counties together considerable keenness would be excited.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 42, after the word 'another,' to insert the following new paragraph: ' (m) For the grouping of County Associations into divisional associations in the case where the size of counties, numbers of population, or distribution of Territorial Army units makes such grouping desirable.' "—(Lord Lovat.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid the Government considered that it would be better to deal with this matter under Clause 4, Subsection 1, Paragraph (e), which gave ample power for any such , joint action as was necessary in these cases. He could not accept the Amendment as it now stood, because it would interfere with the structure of the Bill. The county must be retained as the unit.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I hope the Amendment proposed by my noble friend will be considered. It seems eminently reasonable, and it does not touch quite the same point as Paragraph (e) of the first subsection in Clause 4. That subsection has to do with the co-operation of two separate associations already formed, but what my noble friend proposes is that just as in Para
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graph (l) you are allowed to divide a county owing to its unwieldy size, so where you have two very small counties, and where for other reasons of practical convenience it is desirable to group the two, they should be so grouped. The proposal seems to be logical and symmetrical, and I hope it will not be put entirely on one side.
*THE EARL OF CREWE: We should be anxious, as far as possible, to meet the cases mentioned by the noble Lord opposite, but there is just this more in reply to what fell from the noble Marquess. The object of the introduction of the lord-lieutenant and of the other provisions is that these associations should be of a county character. The object of the noble Lord, I think, is rather to substitute a regular military organisation for the county character. It is quite possible that the noble Lord might be able to suggest something when we come to Paragraph (e) of Subsection 1 of Clause 4 which would rather stiffen that provision, but we do not want to make it appear that the area should be a military one and not a county one, which would be somewhat the effect of the introduction of the paragraph moved by the noble Lord.
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHpointed out that, however useful the power of grouping various associations might be, the Amendment as it stood only allowed this to be done for the purpose of forming a divisional association. He thought the question whether a division was a good unit under which to group an association was one which admitted of a good deal of argument, and he would much prefer the Amendment if the word "divisional" were omitted.
LORD LOVATsaid he was quite prepared to take up the matter, as had been suggested, on Clause 4.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDmoved an Amendment to add, at the end of Subsection 5, words providing that the scheme required by the Act should be laid on the Table of both Houses of Parliament, and that if an

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Address were presented to His Majesty by either House within the period named praying that any such scheme might be annulled, such scheme should be annulled and should forthwith become void and of no effect, but without prejudice to the validity of any proceedings which might, have been undertaken in the meantime. This Amendment was not on the Paper, but he believed it carried out the intention of the Government as stated by the noble Earl.
Amendment moved—
"In page 3, line 9, after the word 'scheme,' to insert the words: 'Every scheme required by this Act to be laid before each House of Parliament shall be so laid within forty days next after it is made, if Parliament is then sitting;, or if not, within forty days after the commencement of the then next ensuing session; and, if an address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent forty days on which the said House shall have sat, praying that any such scheme may be annulled, such scheme shall be so annulled and shall thenceforth become void and of no effect, but without prejudice to the validity of any proceedings which may in the meantime have been taken under the same.' "—(The Duke of Northumberland.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid the Government were prepared to accept, in principle, the proposal of the noble Duke, but they could not accept his words. He asked that he might be allowed to bring up an amended form of words on Report.
VISCOUNT MIDLETONsaid he could produce a very long list of precedents for this Amendment. In one case it was laid down that it was necessary for a Minister in either House of Parliament to move a Vote bringing the Order in Council or the scheme into effect. The provision proposed by the noble Duke was a much less stringent one—it was merely that the scheme should lie for forty days on the Table, and that if during that period any Amendment were made to it by an Address to His Majesty the scheme should be annulled, and no doubt a further scheme would then be put forward. It would save a great deal of debate on these questions if they knew that not merely the scheme would be laid but provision would be made to enable Parliament to pronounce against it in the, he hoped unlikely, contingency
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of that being required. The matters discussed under this clause were all important for the success of the scheme, and in dealing with the rest of the Bill it might greatly facilitate progress if it was felt that in each case Parliament would have an opportunity, not of recasting every scheme, but, in an exceptional case, of taking action.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF BEDFORDmoved an Amendment to strike out the Militia from Clause 1, Subsection 6, this, he said, being consequential on Clause 29 of the Bill, the effect of which clause was to transfer the Militia not to the Territorial Force, but to the Regular Army. If their Lordships would turn to Clause 29 of the Bill they would see that no mention was made of the Militia. The word did not occur in the clause, yet the. result of that clause was to repeal the Militia Act of 1882, and to abolish the whole system and principle of Militia service. Under Clause 29 men might in future be enlisted directly into the Army Reserve, without having previously served with the colours in any branch of the Regular Army. Men so enlisted would be known as Special Reservists in distinction from Regular Reservists. The proposal was to ask all Militiamen now serving to enlist into the Special Reserve under this clause. Militiamen who did not transfer to the Special Reserve were to serve under the Militia Act of 1882 until time expired. When there were no longer any men serving under the Militia Act of 1882, that Act would become obsolete and would be repealed by a Statute Law Revision Act. There were at present about 90,000 Militiamen serving. Now all of those 90,000 men were Militiamen because they did not wish to be Regular soldiers. They were now going to ask those men to change their minds and transfer from Militia to Army service. The conditions of service to which the Militia were now asked to agree were the same as those which were discussed at a conference held last July between fourteen Militia commanding officers and the representatives of the War Office. Those fourteen commanding officers, representing engineers, artillery, and infantry, came from

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all parts of the United Kingdom, and were unanimously of opinion that if the conditions now proposed were enforced it would not be possible to enlist the Militia for foreign service. They had the advantage of being able to base their opinion on actual experience. At the moment when the South African War occurred, there existed in the Militia a form of enlistment known as the Militia Reserve. It was a complicated form of enlistment under which men took a new oath and accepted foreign service in the Reserve of the Regular Army and received a sovereign a year. It was then enacted by the Reserve Forces Act that when Militiamen so enlisted were called out for foreign service with the Line they became for all intents and purposes soldiers of the Regular Forces, as they would do now under Clause 29, and were liable to be transferred to any corps. This form of enlistment was accepted by the men in a gambling spirit. Many won in the sense that they got their sovereign a year for many years, completed their term of service in the Militia, and were never sent to the Regular Army. Many were hard hit by the South African War when the Militia Reserve was sent to the Regular Army and drafted in all directions. The men intensely disliked being sent away from their regiments and friends. The noble Lord, Lord Castletown, dwelt on this point in his speech on the Second Reading of the Bill. But there were many other reasons connected with the campaign which made this form of service most unpopular. He would quote from what Militia Reservists had told him happened in South Africa. First, the Militia non-commissioned officers had to give up their stripes and serve as privates, which meant, amongst other things, a great loss of pay—some £50 or £60— whereas the Volunteer non-commissioned officers retained their rank. Secondly, they saw the Volunteers and Yeomanry, who had agreed to serve as long as the war lasted, going home before its termination, whereas they were retained. To make it worse, they were kept twelve months after their Militia engagement had expired. Thirdly, when the Militia Reserve men belonging to a Militia battalion joined the regimental mounted infantry of the territorial regiment they
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received pay at the rate of 1s. 5d. per diem, whereas the Yeomanry received from 5s. to 7s. per diem. In their own words, they were required to do the same work at a much lower rate of wages. If they had not belonged to the Militia at all, and had volunteered for service, they would have got 5s. per diem. But because they had trained with the Militia they were precluded from earning the higher rate of pay which they saw given to men—he was referring to the later contingents who went out—whose quality they despised, because to their knowledge they had never given an hour to military training before their arrival in South Africa. The lesson they learnt on this point by experience was this. If there was a war they would have no trouble in going out if they wanted to, without doing anything so foolish as to tie their hands before the war came; they could make their own bargain with the State when the war had come, and then they would be able to make their own terms. There was a good deal of sense in that. Finally, they considered that they could not be compensated for the losses they had incurred under a bounty of £50 and a good start in civil life. They could not look forward to any pension as a Regular soldier could do. This touched on the most important point of all. Militia Reserve men came back after being several years in Africa; they were at, once discharged from the ranks of the Army into those of the unemployed; they had lost touch with their old employers and with civilian labour, and that spelt in many cases ruin for themselves and their families. They considered themselves not only hardly but unfairly treated, because they never really understood what the Militia Reserve form of enlistment meant. But they did now. Militia commanding officers had another experiment of foreign service enlistment for the Militia to guide them in forming their opinion. In 1898 an attempt was made to enlist a special service section in the Militia for foreign service. The. bounties offered were higher than those offered for the Militia Reserve. It was an annual bounty of £2, and £5 on return from Army service. He remembered that some Militia regiments expected that all their men would take these terms

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and that the whole battalion would be enlisted and registered as a foreign-service battalion, as a matter of fact, the men—and this was before the South African War—would not touch that form of service, and the whole proposal dropped. Those, then, were the facts upon which commanding officers based the advice they tendered to His Majesty's Government. A long period of peace had made the form of Militia Reserve service possible. The experience of the South African War had, in the opinion of Militia officers, made it impossible. But the Government were of a contrary opinion, and had decided to try and enforce these conditions of foreign service enlistment on the following terms. The Government proposed to offer the men a bounty of £2 to transfer in the first instance, to be refunded—this was important—if the man joined the Army within a year. He knew well the use and value of bounties, but he hated the system, because it meant that they went to a man—a poor man—with money in their hand, and bribed him into taking conditions from which he would otherwise keep free. He gathered from answers given by the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War last week that the men after transfer would receive 10s. a year less bounty than at present. The noble Earl was not able to say if the Special Reservist would take away as his own property the same articles of clothing after training as the Militiaman now did. The Government, therefore, offered less pay for a far more dangerous and exacting form of service, and one of a kind which might be the man's ruin in civil life. The reason for this extraordinary proposal no doubt was the fact that if they raised the pay of the Special Reserve beyond a certain point they would shut down all recruiting for the Regular Army, because it would pay men much better to enlist in the Special Reserve rather than in the Army. Another point, and it was a most important one, upon which he was not able to get any information from the noble Earl, was the sum of money which would be required from a man to purchase his discharge from the Special Reserve. An Army Reservist was required to pay from £25 to £18, which was, of course, prohibitive. A Militiaman could buy his
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discharge for £1. This was the difficulty. If they let men purchase out of the Reserve for £1, men would be constantly buying their discharge, and they would never know how strong the Reserve was. If there was a war scare men might purchase their discharges early and freely. The act of stopping purchases was an act of mobilisation which a Government would be slow to adopt. On the other hand, if they made it very hard for men to buy their discharge from this Special Reserve, they would hesitate about going into it. Young unmarried men would join this Special Reserve, but when they wanted to marry they would desire to buy their discharge. Certainly every Militia commanding officer must explain to the men, not only the terms on which they undertook, but also those on which they could get free from, this serious liability. He was quite sure that His Majesty's Government did not desire that the men should be in any way trapped into the transfer. It would be an easy matter to explain the new conditions of service to the men now serving. They were precisely the same as those of the old Militia Reserve. All they had to do in order to act perfectly fairly by the men —and he would certainly follow this plan himself, was to say—
"These new conditions of service are precisely the same as those of the old Militia Reserve. I advise you to go to the men who served in the Militia Reserve in South Africa and talk the matter over with them. They can tell you about this very much better than I can, because they have had recent and actual experience of this service abroad. Talk the matter over with them and then come back and tell me what you have decided to do."
There was an old proverb that "A scalded cat is afraid of hot water," and that was not inapplicable to the men who had served in the Militia Reserve in South Africa. He thought they were certain of a transfer of upwards of 15,000 boys. That was about the annual transfer from the Militia to the Army; but all they were doing amounted to paying these boys £2 a head to keep out of the Army for a year. What he was most anxious to know was how were the Government, after having abolished the Militia, going to get the 12,000 recruits per year which that force supplied to the Army, and at the same time build up a reserve of 70,000 men—men of over

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twenty for foreign service, because a boy reserve for a foreign-service Army was useless? If the Government had not a certain solution for that puzzle, then their scheme must fail. He would regret to see this scheme wrecked at the outset, and he therefore ventured to make this suggestion to His Majesty's Government. There must be a lengthy period of transition whilst they passed from the old order to the new. It would be a period of great military weakness. Let them leave the Militia as a force in being during that period under the Militia Act of 1882. What the Militia thought they could do to help during that transitional period was this. Let them enlist the whole Militia for foreign service, but not seek to deprive the men of their immunity from drafting which they had always enjoyed by Act of Parliament, and to which they attached special importance. That in itself was an immense step in advance. Then he believed all Militia officers would do their best to find some solution for the difficulty of individual drafting to the Line in time of war. In his opinion they could only arrive at a satisfactory solution by first accustoming the men to foreign-service enlistment under a form congenial to them, and then consulting the men themselves, for under voluntary enlistment they were the judges. It was no use to tell the Militiaman that he must accept drafting to the Line, because they could not make him do so. If the Government were not disposed to follow such a plan, then they must be prepared to face a breakdown in the voluntary system of recruiting for the Regular Army.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 12, to leave out the word ' Militia.' ''—(The Duke of Bedford.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he should be glad to accept the Amendment. He did not for one moment complain that the noble Duke had touched upon the question of the Militia generally, and at a later stage, on an Amendment which would be proposed by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, to Clause 28, he proposed to explain why the Government were unable to accept the Amendment in
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the form proposed by the noble Marquess, and he would at the same time make a general statement respecting the views of the Government on the question of the Militia.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYurged the noble Earl to make the statement which he had foreshadowed on the Amendment now before the Committee, which raised the whole question of the Militia. It was idle to suppose that the men composing the Militia would be induced to transfer to the Special Reserve if they were to be financially worse off after the transfer than they were before. The £4 10s. bounty to which the Militiamen were now entitled would go on being paid, even if the Bill passed into law as it stood, and therefore the Militiaman when asked to transfer would reply that he would enjoy £4 10s. until the end of his engagement, and did not intend to transfer when he would only then be entitled to £4. Unless at least as good terms were offered after the Militiaman had transferred he would continue to receive the £4 10s. and to pursue his civil avocation. That was a very unwise policy, and he did not think the Government would persist in it. Then there was the question of the Militiaman buying his discharge. It had always been considered one of the great inducements to a recruit to enlist in the Militia that it was possible for him by a reasonable payment to escape from the obligation which he had undertaken. He had been told by very experienced Militia officers that they really did not believe Militiamen would enlist in the numbers they did but for that provision. It therefore became very important in starting this new scheme that the Militia should know exactly upon what terms they would be able to buy their discharge. The criticisms he had offered were not submitted in any hostile sense, but unless very reasonable terms could be arrived at on this point he despaired of the success of the policy of the Government. Unless it could be shown to the Militiaman that he was not bound for the whole term without any possible means of getting out of his obligation by reasonable payment, he was convinced that recruiting for the Militia would fall off very considerably. He

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hoped the noble Earl the Under-Secretary would see his way to make on this Amendment the general statement on the question of the Militia which he had foreshadowed.
LORD RAGLANsaid that the bounty which the Government were going to give was not £4 a year for a far larger liability than at present, but only £3, because the men would not get the training bounty. The Government and the Secretary of State for War had not hesitated to break faith with the men when it happened to be convenient. Never in the history of the British Army had that fact been so nakedly pushed home as under this Bill. He looked with the greatest fear upon these proposals and to the number of years which it would take to efface from the minds of the men the gross manner in which faith had been broken both with soldiers and with Militiamen under this Bill. He wished to emphasise what had fallen from the noble Marquess with regard to the purchase of discharges. He was fully persuaded that nothing more conduced to the enlistment of a good class of men than the knowledge that it was possible for them to get out of the obligations in an easy manner. In the case of a bad man it did not matter, for he deserted; but, in the case of a good man, if the sum he would have to pay was not within reasonable reach enlistment would be discouraged. If the Government could see their way to leave the Militia out of the Bill for a year or two until they saw how the Territorial Army would work they would do a very wise thing for the country.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid that his only desire was to consult the convenience of their Lordships, and if it would clear the air he was prepared to make his general statement now. He hoped that by making a statement now it might to a certain extent obviate the necessity of discussing some points later on.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: We cannot promise that.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid that any statement that he might make in respect of the Militia was a statement which
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had been very carefully considered and very carefully drawn up in consultation with all the military authorities. It was a matter in which necessarily a great deal of very technical language had to be used, and what he felt with regard to any statement he might make was that what their Lordships would expect—and what they no doubt had a right to expect—would be that it should be a statement which would show that His Majesty's Government were really anxious to meet the view of noble Lords who were interested in the Militia, and to meet that view not merely in the letter but in the spirit. There were many things which could not be put into the Bill, but their Lordships were entitled to have a statement as serious and as plain as possible, as from one gentleman to another, which would shew that it was the intention of His Majesty's Government to meet as far as possible—and he thought in many ways they could meet—the wishes of noble Lords on the other side of the-House in regard to the Militia. His Majesty's Government were anxious to do everything they could to meet the wishes of the Militia, and with that end in view they had put down an Amendment to Clause 29, page 22, line l0, the effect of which would be—as His Majesty's Government believed and intended—that all Militiamen serving as special reservists would be returned to civil employment simultaneously on an order for the disembodiment of the Militia, and not piecemeal, as was the custom with respect to ordinary reservists. His Majesty's Government would also undertake that as far as practicable— subject, of course, to the supreme necessities of war—where the men of the third and fourth battalions were ordered abroad on active service, their own officers should go with them. They would also undertake that of the officers below the rank of lieutenant-colonel in the third and fourth battalions, not more than one half in each rank should be regular officers. There was no present intention to make anything like one half of the subaltern officers of those battalions regular officers. The question of the organisation of the artillery of the special contingent was one of considerable intricacy and difficulty, but the military authorities had been at work

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upon it for some time, and they had, he was glad to say, made considerable progress. It seemed probable (he was afraid he could not go beyond that) that those artillery special reservists would be organised in units, and in that case they also would have their own officers, who would have promotion in their units as at present. With regard to the establishment and numbers of the third and fourth infantry battalions, there would be equality, and both the third and fourth battalions would have a chance of being used as units in war, as well as of supplying drafts. In Ireland it was proposed to maintain twenty special contingent battalions out of a total of twenty-eight existing Militia battalions. In Great Britain it was proposed to maintain eighty-one battalions out of a total of ninety-six existing Militia battalions. The remaining battalions — viz., eight in Ireland and fifteen in Great Britain — would, as regarded both officers and militiamen, be absorbed, if they so consented, into the battalions which it was intended to maintain and they would accordingly disappear as battalions. With regard to the transfer of Militia battalions to Reserve, that, of course, was a point of very great importance, and one which had been recognised, and pressed upon His Majesty's Government as one of very great importance, by those who were interested in the Militia.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The existing militiamen?
*THE EARL. OF PORTSMOUTH: Yes. He was about to suggest a clause which it was hoped might meet the views of noble Lords, and perhaps it would be convenient to the House if he read it. It was proposed to insert as a new clause after Clause 32—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It is not on the Paper, is it?
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid it was not on the Paper, but he thought it would be well for him to read it to the House. If it met with the approval of the House it could be inserted either in Committee or at the Report Stage. At any rate, it was part of his statement,
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and he wished noble Lords to know the exact words —
"(1) His Majesty may by Order in Council transfer to the Army Reserve such battalions of Militia as may be specified in the Order, and every battalion so transferred shall, from the date mentioned in the Order, be deemed to have been lawfully formed under this part of this Act as a battalion of special reservists. (2) As from the said date every officer of any battalion so transferred shall be deemed to be an officer in the reserve of officers, and every man in such battalion shall be deemed to be a special reservist, and the Order may contain such provisions as may seem necessary for applying the provisions of the Reserve Forces Act, 1882, as amended by this Act, to those officers and men; provided that if any officer or man in any battalion so transferred at the time of such transfer indicates his objection, nothing in this Order shall affect his existing conditions of service."
He was aware that it had been pressed and held by many noble Lords that for practical purposes it was not desirable — and it was a point which he himself appreciated very much — to make these men sign a new attestation paper. His Majesty's Government were confronted with considerable difficulties in that respect. He supposed it could be done by Act of Parliament, but it appeared to His Majesty's Government that it would be a very strong and high-handed proceeding to transfer all these men in units, subjecting them to new and different terms of service, without their having to sign a new attestation paper. But he thought the difficulty would practically be met, because of course the bounty would not be given until the attestation paper was signed. One of the points on which he had been written to by noble Lords was as to whether he could lay upon the Table of the House the form of attestation paper which was proposed. He was not able to do so at that moment, because it had not yet reached a form which had been finally approved by His Majesty's Government, but he would take the earliest possible opportunity of doing so, and of course as few changes as possible would be made. Before concluding his statement, he would like to refer to a statement which had appeared in The Times newspaper, headed "From our Correspondent," dealing largely with the question of the promotion of officers. While he thought that statement was perfectly accurate at the time, as a description of what might have existed

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under the former conditions, it was not accurate now, as regarded the present proposals of the Government. He did not know whether it would be wise — he thought perhaps it would — for him to repeat exactly what was the position of His Majesty's Government in regard to those officers. All field officers would be offered transfers to the special contingent for service as reserve officers with the third or fourth battalions, and would be posted to those battalions. He hoped that was quite clear. The majors would, if they were considered qualified, be available for promotion to the lieut.-colonelcy to command battalions. The lieut.-colonel commanding the third or fourth battalion would be taken either from the majors of the reserve of officers serving in their battalion, if considered fit to take up the command of a battalion, or from the retired regular officers if the reserve officer of field rank was not fit. Not less than one half of the majors serving in the third and fourth battalions would be drawn from the non-regular officers serving in those battalions.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLANDasked what was to happen to the present Commanding officer of the regiment.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: He goes on; there is no reason why he should not go on. Of the officers below the rank of major in the third and fourth battalions, not more than one half in each rank would be Regulars, but there was no intention of making anything like one half of the subaltern officers Regulars.
LORD RAGLAN: inquired whether the Regular officers would be senior to all the Militia officers, or whether they would rank as from the date of their appointment.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid that was a point which he could not answer off-hand. All the officers serving in the third and fourth battalions as Reserve officers would receive £ 20 per annum, in addition to pay, up to the age of thirty-five, on reaching which age they would cease to draw the £ 20 per annum, but might, if they so desired,
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remain in the third or fourth battalion, and would be eligible for promotion up to the rank of lieutenant-colonel in those battalions. Captains of over thirty-five now serving in the Militia could remain in their battalions, if they wished, as Reserve officers. They would be eligible for promotion up to the rank of lieutenant-colonel, but would not receive the £ 20 a year. He had beer, perfectly frank and had told the House exactly what were the intentions and proposals of His Majesty's Government. He had, so to speak, put all his cards upon the table, and he hoped and trusted that with regard to this controversy, although there might still be some difficulties to be got over with regard to matters of form, and although they might still have to discuss some further questions, the House would be of opinion that he had shown that, consistent with the principles of their scheme, His Majesty's Government had endeavoured to meet the views of noble Lords on the opposite side of the House in respect to the Militia, because he was sure that the present members of the Army Council were as much in sympathy with, and appreciated quite as much what had been done in the past by, the Militia as any noble Lord on the Opposition side of their Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I understand the noble Lord accepts the Amendment.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I accept the Amendment of the noble Duke.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
*THE EARL OF SCARBROUGH,in moving an Amendment to omit the Yeomanry from the Territorial Force, said he was afraid that his Amendment would not be so easily disposed of as the one which had just been dealt with. His object in moving the Amendment was to ask their Lordships to consider very seriously before they consented drastically to change the whole character and position of the Yeomanry force by levelling it down to the conditions of the infantry of the Territorial Army — which were Volunteers under another name — and by placing it under local civil administration. What was the position?

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The Yeomanry force was admittedly in a satisfactory state. It had climbed to its present position after many vicissitudes. Fifteen or more years ago the Yeomanry were in danger of extinction, and he thought it was extremely probable that had it not been for the steadfast belief in the potentialities of that force on the part of His late Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, the Yeomanry would have ceased to exist. The military authorities of that time, however, decided that if the Yeomanry was to justify its existence, and its inclusion in the general mobilisation scheme of home defence, it must be entirely re-organised and increase its efficiency. To that demand there was a ready response; pressure was put on, and this, coupled with the sympathetic treatment which the force received at that time, resulted in its steady improvement; so that in 1899, when the crisis occurred in South Africa, the force was able to furnish, or at any rate to provide the nucleus of, the much-needed mounted reinforcements in the field. He did not think it was too much to say — in fact there could be no question whatever — that if the Yeomanry organisation had not existed in this country at the time of that crisis, the difficulties of Lord Roberts would have been enormously increased and his movements hampered, if not entirely paralysed. He imagined that it was in order to provide against such crises in the future that they were now endeavouring to make arrangements. He believed that was the only question in regard to Army reform that the general public in this country cared a straw about. Noble Lords had to ask themselves how this scheme was going to safeguard national and imperial interests in this respect, how it was going to provide for expansion outside the Regular Army, so that the Regular Army, if need be, in time of stress might be supported in the field. The then Secretary of State, Viscount Midleton, immediately after the war realised the value of the Yeomanry force for this purpose, and he trebled its establishment. He doubled the period of training; he brought the Yeomanry force under the Militia Act of 1882, and required a higher standard of efficiency — all the time, however, treating the force sympathetically. Again, what was the result? That during the past
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five years the Yeomanry found itself the only branch of the Auxiliary Forces which was able to maintain its strength; and further he was confident that if general officers commanding-in-chief in their various commands were asked the question they would say that for a partially-trained force the Yeomanry had to-day reached a standard of efficiency which could only be characterised as high, and which ten years ago would have been thought to be absolutely unattainable. How had that been brought about? He thought it was tolerably obvious to those who had taken any interest in the matter, and it was certainly the conviction of commanding officers of Yeomanry, that it was entirely due to liberal treatment, whereby they had been enabled to attract to join the Yeomanry a class of men who had a knowledge of riding and of the care of horses. If they ceased to make the force sufficiently attractive to attract that class, they would cease to tap that class altogether for the purpose of defending the country, because it was-perfectly clear to him that men of that class would not serve in any other branch of the Auxiliary Forces. That was the position to-day, when they were confronted with the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War, and, having regard to the efforts that the Yeomanry had recently made, he could only say that as far as that force was concerned the terms offered were most discouraging. They were asked to sacrifice their position under the Militia Act of 1882; to come under civil administration — which was going back to the early days of the history of the force — and to serve under Army rates of pay during the annual training. And, as far as he understood, they were asked to do work outside the annual training — which included the very important annual musketry course — for no pay at all. He would like to get a clear understanding on that point from the Under-Secretary for War. He understood that outside the annual training no pay or allowance of any kind would be given to the force for any work that they might undertake. In addition to that they were to have their training curtailed, but were asked to reach a higher standard of efficiency, and to undertake more obligations, and, apparently, to do — or to

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ask the men to do — a certain amount of individual training during the winter months, also without any recompense whatever. In the opinion of the Yeomanry commanding officers that was a retrograde step, and one calculated to reduce the numbers, to impair the efficiency, and to destroy the character of the Yeomanry force. And what were the arguments on the other side which made it worth while running those risks? They were told that it was absolutely essential that there should be rigid uniformity of terms and conditions in the Territorial Army, that they were to be all raised, trained, paid, and organised on one, simple plan. Presumably that was to save money, but he suggested that the only way in which money would be saved over that scheme would be in not getting the. men at all. If some of the elasticity found in the Bill were to be introduced into the scheme itself, there might be a better chance of meeting the reasonable requirements of the men who were willing to serve. No doubt if they had some form of compulsion they could get absolute uniformity of terms and conditions, but not under the voluntary system. They must, under a voluntary system, recognise the variety of classes of men who were willing to come in. That fact had been worked out long ago by Yeomanry regiments in the light of local experience; and he believed that was also the case in regard to the Volunteers. He admitted that it was possible to approach more nearly to uniformity — that was to say uniformity of cost — if they could strike an average for each branch; but that did not appear to have been done, as far as he could gather. Mr. Haldane seemed to have discovered that there were two Yeomanry corps in the Highlands of Scotland who lived a very simple life; they could be fed for very little — he was told under Is. a day — and, moreover, they could provide horses for an extraordinarily small sum. Mr. Haldane seemed to have been inclined to form his opinion as to the general requirements and needs of the Yeomanry force upon his knowledge of those two regiments. It was perhaps natural that he should do so, because the only two representatives of the Yeomanry force on the "Duma" were the two noble
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commanders of these two Highland regiments to which he had referred. Their Lordships would, he thought, agree that any bodies of men who were trained and organised by noble Lords like Lord Lovat and Lord Tullibardine were bound to be both useful and efficient; but those regiments could not be taken as a pattern for the purpose of trying to standardise the Yeomanry as a whole, because they did not bear any resemblance, in many essential respects, to the rest of the force. He quite agreed that in some cases — perhaps in many — the messing of Yeomanry regiments was excessive, and ought to be reduced, but if it were reduced to the point which Mr. Haldane desired they would sweep away the class of Yeomanry which they had now got. He would suggest to the noble Lord the Under-Secretary for War that he should see if he could not cause an augmentation of the messing allowance which it was proposed to give, on the ground that the time of training was a period of high pressure and real hard work, and that if it were desired to get the best out of men they must at least be helped to live up to their usual standard. Then there was the question of uniformity of pay, and here the commanding officers submitted that men who joined with a knowledge of riding and of the care of horses were worth paying extra for, and that the practical difference between a Yeoman who had a horse to look after — which he very frequently owned — and saddlery to clean, and a rifleman who had neither, demanded additional remuneration, which might well be given in the form of extra duty pay, or some allowance of that kind. That was a point which those for whom he spoke considered essential. Moreover, if well treated in peace time he would probably undertake greater obligations than at present, and would be perfectly ready to serve at regular rates on mobilization in time of war. There were two more points to which he desired to draw the attention of the Under-Secretary for War. First, it was generally understood that the Yeomanry were to have a reprieve for three years — that the force would not be disturbed for that period. That was only very partially the case. It was true that

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recruits and non-commissioned officers were to be allowed to enlist and to reengage under present terms and conditions, which Would practically carry them on — if they were willing — until the year 1910. But that concession was not allowed in the case of privates, and that was a point about which commanding officers felt very strongly. They were particularly anxious that regiments should be kept together during the period of doubt and uncertainty which was bound to be created under the scheme before them. There was already a feeling of unrest, and he could give an instance of one regiment which last year was enabled to re-engage cent. per cent. of its men, while in the month of June in the present year under 20 per cent. of the men came forward to re-engage. What they who were interested in the Yeomanry were anxious about was that the men should not be frightened away; and even for the success of the scheme — if it was going to be a success — he suggested that a period of three years respite would be a great advantage in accustoming the men to the new ideas which they would have to face. Mr. Haldane had likened his scheme, or system, to a cone. Was it too much to ask — was it unreasonable to ask — that he should first turn his attention to the base of that cone, and be sure that he had got a firm foundation of County Associations and territorial infantry, before he interfered with a force which was in being, and in a high state of organisation and efficiency. The noble Duke (the Duke of Bedford), speaking for the Militia, had suggested that the same period of grace might be allowed in the case of that branch of the Auxiliary Forces; and he (the Earl of Scarbrough) suggested that it would be not only possible, but reasonable, that both the Militia and the Yeomanry, for that period of three years, should be allowed to continue to serve under the Act of 1882. The second point he wished to refer to was the question of the Special Contingent which the Yeomanry were asked to provide to the number of a troop from each regiment for the Expeditionary Force. He had very little doubt that those men would be forthcoming, if they were asked for in the right way. But there was a right
1096
way and a wrong way, and it seemed to him that His Majesty's Government had chosen the wrong way. As he understood it, those men were to be supernumerary to Yeomanry regiments, which was quite right. But they were to be obtained under Part III., Clause 29, of the Bill. That meant that they were to be Regular Reservists. Yeomanry regiments would have practically little or nothing to say to them: they would be nominally attached to Yeomanry regiments; they would be enlisted anywhere and everywhere, and as far as he knew many of them might be men who simply came for a job. That was not the class of men required, and if Yeomanry regiments were to be answerable for that Special Contingent, he suggested that they should be obtained not under Part III., but under Part II., Clause 12, Sub-section (2) of the Bill; that was to say, that they should be men actually in a Yeomanry regiment, preferably who had done one training; that they should volunteer with their officers from their regiments, and that when they had done their special terms of service, they should return and be absorbed into their regiments, where they would be extremely valuable as non-commissioned officers. Under the method by which it was now proposed to raise them, he feared that there would be a very poor response indeed. There was one other matter with respect to the Special Contingent about which he would like to ask the noble Earl a question, viz., bounties. He understood that there were to be bounties both in peace time and in war time, but they had heard nothing as to the amount. Perhaps the noble Earl would later on be able to tell them what amount of bounty was to be given in time of peace, and also what amount was to be given in time of war. Then there was the question, How were they going to maintain this Special Contingent in the field? What provision was there for wastage? As far as he could make out, there was none. He desired also to say a word on the much larger question with which the future of the Yeomanry was bound up — namely, the question of expansion in times of great crisis outside the Regular Army. If that contingency was not provided for, he could not see any earthly object in

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meddling with the force and interfering with its present position. He knew he would be answered that the Territorial Army must have its quota of cavalry. But he would reply to that that the Territorial Army was restricted in its service to the United Kingdom, and. owing to the nature of the country, 20,000 cyclists would be equally useful and much more economical. The true rôle which the Yeomanry should be asked to play — the rôle that would be of real value to the State — would be this. They should be enlisted in future to serve anywhere within the Empire in times of great stress, and those were the only times when they would ever be asked to do so. He was perfectly certain that military authorities knew and recognised that that was the service which they required of them, and they knew that in times of emergency they would want every man they could get. He was perfectly ready to admit that if they had universal training they could rely on volunteering when the crisis arrived, because men who were partially trained were much more ready to come forward than those who were not trained at all. That had been amply proved in the South African War. While over 50 per cent. of the trained Militia volunteered for active service, only one-tenth of the less-trained Volunteers came forward, and of the untrained and unorganised bulk of the male population of fighting age, only one in 1,000. If they relied on the voluntary system, they trained only a few to do the work of the nation, and that being the case, they must be sure of getting the bulk of those few when the emergency arose, otherwise they were embarking upon a pure gamble. They had recognised this necessity in the case of the Militia, and sooner or later they would have to recognise it in the case of the Yeomanry — unless they were prepared to increase largely the Regular cavalry. He thought the Yeomanry were just as likely to take upon themselves that obligation as they were to accept the offer which Mr. Haldane had now made to them. As he had said before, that offer was most discouraging, and, as his noble friend Lord Harris had said the other night, it was in some respects degrading. In the few words that he had addressed to their Lordships, he had spoken with an
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added sense of responsibility, because he had endeavoured, as far as he could, to represent the views of the commanding officers of the Yeomanry. He wished it to be clearly understood that although those officers were ready at all times to do their best, still, as the Yeomanry stood under the scheme in its present form, they must decline to take any responsibility whatever for the ill effects — and possibly the disastrous effects — which they feared these changes would have on the force.
Amendment moved —
"In page 3, line 12, to leave out the word ' Yeomanry.' "— (The Earl of Scarbrough.)
*EARL ROBERTSsaid he could not speak as a commanding officer of Yeomanry, but he could speak as a commander who had had a great deal to do with Yeomanry in the field; and he most earnestly hoped that nothing would be done either in this Bill or in any other Bill to detract from the efficiency of the Imperial Yeomanry as it now existed. It had been for many years past certain that a larger number of mounted troops would be required in war than was formerly the case; much larger areas of ground had to be covered; troops had to be dispersed in greater breadths and lengths than formerly; and under no circumstances could infantry possibly hope to cover the whole extent of ground on which operations would be carried on either before an action, or during an action, or after an action. More mounted troops were essential. He had been so firmly impressed by that necessity that when he came back from South Africa the first thing he did was to impress it upon the authorities at the War Office for having a larger number of mounted troops. And the only way he saw by which that could possibly be effected, without increasing the Regular cavalry — which would be hopeless on account of the expense — was to increase the Yeomanry. It had been his hope then that by appealing to Yeomanry Officers, and pointing out to them what their rôle would be in future wars — not so much the rôle of cavalry as the rôle of mounted rifles — they would be induced to respond.,

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and that they would get their regiments fitted to fulfil that rôle; and he must say that they had responded in the most remarkable manner. He himself had seen, he believed, nearly every Yeomanry regiment in the country; he had seen them when he was Commander-in-Chief, and he had constantly seen them since. He thought that the Yeomanry as at present trained was as useful a body of men as they could possibly hope to have; but he much feared that they would not remain such a useful body if they were to be treated in the way in which he understood it was now proposed to treat them. His hope was that the Yeomanry would be classed with the Militia, and that they would be placed next to the Regular Army. Of course, he quite understood that if that was to be done the Yeomanry must undertake the same responsibilities as the Militia; they must train more than, perhaps, they had hitherto done; and they must certainly undertake the obligation to serve abroad in time of war. He understood his noble friend (the Earl of Scarbrough) to admit that; and he hoped it would be settled that they should be enlisted to serve abroad in time of war without any question. A certain number might, if required, be retained in this country in time of need; and he hoped that this would be arranged; but he strongly recommended that the mounted troops required for the Expeditionary Force in addition to the Cavalry and mounted Infantry should be Yeomanry, and not, as proposed, the Special Contingent; for that contingent would not be the valuable body that a unit would be. He most earnestly hoped that nothing would be done to prevent the Yeomanry being increased sufficiently so as to enable it to take the field as units — possibly a short time after war had broken out — as a valuable adjunct to the cavalry in the field. The cavalry required something of that sort. In South Africa they always had with them a certain number of mounted infantry. In future wars, he believed that, whatever arrangements might be made now, the mounted infantry would form the mounted troops of a division of infantry. They were more allied with the infantry than either the cavalry or the Yeomanry could be; they were more accustomed to work
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with infantry; and in all respects they would be better fitted for that particular work than either the Regular, cavalry or the Yeomanry would be. On the other hand, the Yeomanry would be a great deal better fitted to take the place of mounted infantry with cavalry; they had better horses, they rode better, they were more used to take care of horses; and, although he had often told them that they could never hope to be cavalry in all respects, still they would form a very valuable adjunct to cavalry and would do a great deal of work which cavalry would be wasted upon. Therefore he hoped that whatever arrangement were come to now the efficiency of the Yeomanry would not be in any way endangered: that they should be kept as a body ready to take the field abroad when necessary, and that they should be looked upon, not as a training ground for any special contingent, for in the Special Contingent, he confessed, he had no faith at all. Re felt that it would be looked upon by the cavalry not as Yeomanry, but as belonging to the cavalry, yet they would not have the training of cavalry — it would be neither cavalry nor Yeomanry, whereas the Yeomanry could take the field as a unit ready to do a great deal of useful work. He had ventured to make those remarks because he thought that he was in a great degree responsible for the Imperial Yeomanry. The very name given to them showed that it was understood to be part of their work to go abroad. He remembered that there had been a great deal of discussion about that name, and that the noble Viscount on the Front Opposition Bench (Viscount Midleton) had often talked the matter over with him; and they had come to the conclusion that the Imperial Yeomanry would be necessarily a part of the Army for the defence of this country as well as to take the field in support of the Regular Army. That was what their origin was, and that was what their object had been; and he sincerely trusted that that object would not in any way be interfered with.
*LORD LEIGHsaid it would be a great pity if anything were done to discourage the present high class of men from joining

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the imperial Yeomanry. The Yeomanry in the past few years had been climbing the ladder of efficiency, until they had attained a very high standard indeed. The keenness of both officers and men was undeniable, and, he believed, undenied. The old class that they were sometimes told of — the Yeoman who looked upon his training as a mere joke and as an opportunity of indulging in all play and no work — if it had ever really existed, had now become as extinct as the dodo. But the Yeoman, good as he was, wished to have some few points conceded. He wished the country to recognize that he was a Volunteer soldier, and he wished the country to give him sufficient pay, and surely those demands were not excessive. It would be a great pity if the fabric that had taken so long to raise should be now broken. With regard to the County Associations, the proposals now before the country were liable to lead to great confusion, great expenditure, and great discontent, among the Yeomanry. It had taken a long time to raise the Yeomanry to its present state; in a very few years it might be called upon again, but once destroyed, it could never be restored to its present condition.
THE EARL OF ESSEXsaid that one of the chief objections to the Bill was that it would increase the commanding officers' great difficulty in getting recruits both of officers and of men. In the last three or four months — in fact, ever since the present scheme had been on the tapis — recruiting had been practically at a standstill. There was, he believed, some excuse for the standstill of the recruiting as far as the men were concerned, because there had been great misapprehension as to the date at which this scheme would take effect, and a great many of the men had thought it was going to take effect at once. It had not been thoroughly understood that anybody enlisting now, or before next March, would be able to enlist for three years on the old system of pay. That misunderstanding had been done away with — it had been explained away, rather — and he believed that the recruiting was now going on in a more or less satisfactory 'manner. But in the case of the officer it was quite different. It always had been very difficult indeed to get a suffic
1102
ient number of properly qualified officers to serve in the Yeomanry, and he ventured to say that if this Bill came into force, the difficulty would be increased tenfold, for the very simple reason that anybody now who was thinking of joining the Yeomanry as an officer would think several times before he did so, because he knew that in a year or two the whole character of the regiment he proposed to join would very likely be changed, and also that the class of recruit — the class of men that he had looked to for the last few years — was likely to be changed. He honestly thought — and he spoke from a certain amount of experience in Yeomanry matters — that if this Bill became law, they would lose a very large percentage both of officers and of men whose places would be very difficult indeed to fill. The class of men that they now got in the Yeomanry was a class of men that they could not find every day. It was a class of men quite different from the old class. These men were young, they were keen, they were good riders, they were efficient, and certainly for the time they were out they took a tremendously keen interest in everything that appertained to the work of a soldier. Such men were very difficult to find now. Another point he would like to remark upon was the fact that the commanding officers would be faced in the next two or three years with a very serious and difficult position. They would find themselves in command of a body of men, the old soldiers in which body would be receiving pay at the rate of 5s. a day, while the recruits, after next month, would be receiving pay at 1s. 3d. Was that a possible situation? In his opinion it was an absolute impossibility for anybody to command a regiment under those conditions. It could only lead to jealousy, and it might lead to more serious trouble than jealousy. At any rate, it certainly would not lead to the" efficiency of the regiment. There was no force in the whole of His Majesty's forces that had made such giant strides towards efficiency as the Yeomanry in the last six or seven years. They had had, he might say, a "boom" in Yeomanry or the last seven years. Everybody had been keen about it, and had been talking about it, and everybody

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— to use a common expression — had "played up" well, and had done their par t in making the force as efficient as it was at the present moment. Did they not think that it would be almost a calamity if, by the stroke of the pen, the whole of that labour of the last seven years was lost to England for ever? He for one thought it would.
LORD LOVATasked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the House was going to have any opportunity of discussing the question of the special contingent. Was the noble Lord going to make a statement on that subject — as to how the Special Contingent were going to be trained, how they were going to be employed when they came into active service, and as to the particulars of their duty in time of peace? He did not think that in either House as yet any statement had been made about the troop of men which each regiment was to furnish for service abroad. He wished to make a few remarks on the subject of the Yeomanry, but before doing so he desired to ask whether the noble Lord was going to make a statement about the probable future of the Special Contingent of Yeomanry.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid that His Majesty's Government would be quite prepared to enter into a discussion about the Special Contingent when they came to Part III. of the Bill. Having said that, he would proceed to call the attention of the House to the Amendment of his noble friend Lord Scarbrough, but perhaps before going into the principle of that Amendment he might be allowed to mention some points on which he had gathered in the course of the noble Lord's speech he wished further information. He was afraid he was not in the position to give him all the details he asked for, but he would be very glad indeed to give him all those he could. With reference to the reduction of pay, His Majesty's Government hoped that that reduction would be to some extent compensated for by increased messing allowance and extra duty pay for looking after the horse and saddlery. A camp allowance of Is. a day would be paid to the commanding officer, to be
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expended by him in messing, the cost of which the Yeoman now met out of his pay. They had already heard of the suggestion of giving extra duty pay for looking after the horse and saddlery, and he would carefully consider whether it was possible in any way to meet that matter further. It was for the very purpose of considering this question that His Majesty's Government had made the provisional arrangement with regard to the Yeomanry on transfer to the Territorial Army.
*THE EARL OF SCARBROUGH: I beg your pardon — I did not quite understand about the extra duty pay. Is there to be extra duty pay, and, if so, how much?
*THE EARL OP PORTSMOUTHsaid he could not give the exact figure, but the extra duty pay was to be for looking after the horse and saddlery. Then his noble friend had asked whether musketry pay and travelling allowance for the annual course was to be given in the future. It had been decided not to give musketry pay in future, but travelling allowance would be given for any travelling that the Yeoman was required to undertake. Next, his noble friend had asked whether the fourteen squadrons which it was proposed to employ in the Expeditionary Force could not be enlisted under Part II., Clause 12, into the Territorial Army instead of into the Special Contingent under Part III. In reply to that, he would point out that Clause 2, Sub-section 2 (a), allowed the men of the Territorial Force to subject themselves to the liability to serve in any place outside the United Kingdom. He might point out to the House that this clause was intended to apply to such persons as doctors, hospital staff, telegraphists, and others who would not require more military training than they would normally get in the Territorial Force, and that it was not intended to apply to men who would require a special course of preliminary training to fit them for their duties. It was for this latter class that the Special contingent, with its six months preliminary training, was specially designed. Under Clause 13, which dealt with the preliminary training of the Territorial

1105
Force, his noble friend would see that continuous training was not to be required unless provided for by Order in Council. It allowed for preliminary training to be given in the form of drills, and was therefore quite unsuited for what was required for the fourteen squadrons, the terms of service, the periods of training, and so forth of which were precisely those of the Special Contingent. There were to be six months preliminary training and six days annual musketry training (he had referred to them before in the House), and they did not in any way resemble those of the Territorial Force. It was therefore very difficult to see why these fourteen squadrons should not belong to the Special Contingent. Another and a further difficulty that would be created by attempting to obtain these fourteen squadrons in a different manner from that employed in obtaining them for the Special Contingent, was that it would to a certain extent disorganise the training machinery to be provided for the Special Contingent — the training squadron which it was proposed to form for these men. He did not want, at that moment, to go into all the details and technicalities; but that was the reason why it would be very inconvenient to accept that proposal. The noble Lord had asked what bounties would be offered to the Special Contingent in peace time and on active service. In reply to that, he would say that it was intended to give an annual bounty of £ 4 and a bonus on mobilisation. The amount of the bonus on mobilisation he was not yet in a position to give to the House, because it had not yet been settled. He would now come to what he thought was rather the point of the Amendment moved by his noble friend; and he thought their Lordships were bound, before supporting that Amendment, to look at its effect. The effect of the Amendment would be to exclude altogether the Yeomanry from the Territorial Army, and to leave them outside both the first and second lines. There was no analogy — no real analogy, as his noble friend had tried to point out — between their condition and the condition of the Militia. The Militia, under the proposals that His Majesty's Government were now
1106
making to the House, were practically to go over to the Regular line. If that were done, and if an Amendment of this kind were carried, he would like their Lordships to consider what the practical effect of it would be. The War Office might find it necessary to raise new cavalry for the Territorial Army and their Lordships might find it extremely difficult — he might say almost impossible — to persuade those in another place to find money for anything outside the two lines. The practical result of that would be that the Yeomanry would cease to exist. He was certain that that was not the wish of his noble friend, and it most certainly was not the wish of anybody at the War Office. He would take that opportunity of saying, in reply both to his noble friend and to what had been said by the very distinguished Field-Marshal who sat upon the cross benches (Earl Roberts) that they at the War Office appreciated most highly the services of the Yeomanry. His right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War had in another place stretched he thought the limits of generosity in the direction of what was possible at the present moment as regards any pledge towards pay; and he most earnestly hoped that their Lordships would not, on a question of that kind, take any step which might possibly arouse a conflict of opinion between the views of their Lordships and of those in another place on the question of pay — a question which, after all, after the proposals that had been made by his right hon. friend respecting the Yeomanry, which were not to disturb the existing conditions for some time, it seemed hardly wise, opportune, or expedient to raise now. He rather hoped that his noble friend's object in moving this Amendment (which he thought he could hardly expect His Majesty's Government to accept) had been to raise the general question of the Yeomanry. The reason why the Yeomanry, with the exception of the fourteen squadrons required for the Special Contingent, should belong to the second line and not to the first, were these: that only 2,254 Yeomanry as compared with the total number of about 25,000 — he was giving merely broad figures and was not binding himself to anything exact — were required in the first

1107
line for the fourteen squadrons of the Expeditionary Force; whereas the whole of the remainder were, in the opinion of the military advisers of the War Office, most urgently required for the cavalry of the Territorial Force, if the latter was to be organised, as was intended, on strict military lines. He would like to point out to his noble friend that the effect of his Amendment being pressed — and if pressed being carried — would be to strike them out of the Territorial Force. They did not want them in the first line — they had no requirements for them there — and supposing, for the sake of argument, that they wanted this large amount of cavalry in the first line, the Yeomanry would themselves be asked to subject themselves to conditions of training which he must confess, speaking with some knowledge of the class from which Yeomen were drawn — and a very admirable class it was — they would find most irksome. If the Yeomanry went into the special contingent as a body they would have to undergo six months training, and he maintained that that would be imposing upon them a condition which would be most irksome, and, as he thought, most repellent to them. Of course, they were not supposed in that House to concern themselves with money, but at the same time money did form a very large part of all practical considerations, and the extra cost which would be involved in a proposal of this kind would be very great. Added to all this, in the opinion of the general staff, it would be unnecessary for those Yeomen who were not going to join to form the fourteen squadrons. He did not want to press it too much, or to go too much into detail, but the terms and conditions of service and training of the Territorial Army approximated far more closely to those of the Yeomanry than to those of any other branch of the Auxiliary Forces. His noble friend had referred to the question of pay. Perhaps he would not be wearying the House if he made some statement upon that point. As regards pay, the facts were as follows: — A private in the Yeomanry now received £ 5 horse allowance and 5s. 6d. a day while he was training, out of which he had to pay for his own messing. The proposed pay
1108
would be £ 5 horse allowance in the case of Yeomen — he was not, of course, speaking of horses for other purposes such as transport — and 2s. 8d. a day made up as follows: — Pay at service rates, 1s. 2d.; allowance in lieu of bread and meat rations, at service rates, 6d. (where feasible, units might be allowed to draw the rations instead of receiving allowance); allowance for groceries, service rates, 3d.; and extra allowances, 9d., making a total of 2s. 8d. Under the organisation which was now being worked out for the Territorial Army by the general staff the functions of cavalry were far more precisely defined than had hitherto been the case. The general staff considered that if the Yeomanry were to be properly trained in these functions it could only be done by organising in brigades and making them the cavalry of an organised force of all arms — that was the Territorial Army. Special attention would be given to their training by means of training squadrons, one of which it was proposed to quarter in every one of the commands, with, of course, the exception of Alder-shot. His noble friend had asked for the extension of the re-engagement of privates on existing terms till the end of the training in 1910. He would like just to mention the very considerable concessions that the Government had already made with regard to the Yeomanry. They had agreed to allow non-commissioned officers of the Yeomanry who transferred to continue their present rates of pay until 1910. With regard to privates, the arrangement made was that all men enlisted or re-enlisted before this Bill became operative in their respective counties should be allowed to continue under present rates of pay until the end of their period of enlistment or re-enlistment. They enlisted or re-enlisted for a period of three years, but if they then re-engaged they would do so under the new rates of pay. All men who re-engaged before the passing of this Bill would receive the present rates of pay until the end of their period of re-engagement. They reengaged for one year and thenceforward at the new rates of pay. He did not think it could be said that the Government had not met, as far as circumstances would possibly permit, the case

1109
of the Yeomanry. He would very much regret if his noble friend pressed this Amendment. It was an Amendment which it was quite impossible for the Government to accept, because it was entirely contrary to the whole spirit and structure of the Bill. Of course, if it were pressed, the result would be that the Yeomanry would go out of the Bill, and he thought it would mean, which he was sure was not their wish, that the Yeomanry would be abolished. On the other hand, while he was not at the present moment in a position to give any pledge beyond the statement which had been made as to giving both the War Office and the Yeomanry time to look about, he thought the Government proposals had been most considerate, if not generous. He was quite sure that any further proposals were not likely to commend themselves to those in another place, and, therefore, he hoped in the interests of the Yeomanry his noble friend, who, he was sure, would appreciate that they at the War Office were most anxious to do all they possibly could for the Yeomanry, would accept the good endeavours they had made, with the distinct understanding which he was quite ready to give, that they would always consider, when the time came again, the claims of the Yeomanry. He could not go beyond that.
LORD METHUENwished to say a few words regarding the Yeomanry. He quite agreed with the Under-Secretary for War that he voiced the feeling of the Committee as regarded the Yeomanry force being transferred to the Territorial Army. He thought their Lordships clearly understood that they required mounted men for the Territorial Army, and they therefore thought it would be quite sufficient if they had the fourteen squadrons which the Under-Secretary of State had mentioned. But the mistake that was made was in reducing the pay of the Yeomanry. He thought that though 5s. 6d. a day was a good deal, they must take into account the stamp of men being recruited in the Yeomanry. These men were farmers who could not afford to leave their farms for pay at the rate of 2s. 8d. a day. Nor could the
1110
men who worked in the city — because there were a great number of clerks in the Yeomanry — afford to leave their work at that figure. He would far rather see the sum of 5s. 6d. continued, at any rate, for three years. His experience of the Yeomanry, both on service and since he came back, led him to believe that there was no better force in Europe than that of the Yeomanry. The stamp of men now in the Yeomanry was as fine as anything to be got in England, even if they had a compulsory force. These men were a stamp of men they would not get if they reduced the pay, and he was certain the 5s. 6d. a day would yield a better result for the money than they would get by reducing it.
VISCOUNT MIDLETONthought the speech of the noble and gallant Lord would be a measure of the disappointment with which everybody who loved the Yeomanry force heard the noble Earl's statement. They, of course, realised that this particular word if cut out of the Bill would go to the root of the Government scheme; but after listening to the speeches of noble and gallant friends, several of whom had served in South Africa, who knew the old Yeomanry force as well as the present force, they had expected a more sympathetic reply from the Under-Secretary of State for War. The noble Earl had told them that the Yeomanry were more akin in their training and in their possibilities to the Volunteer force. The Yeomanry as reorganised six years ago had been on a par with the Militia. There had been this difference between the Yeomanry and the other Auxiliary Forces of the Crown, that with all their merits the Militia force had been short of men and officers, and the Volunteer force had been full of men but short of officers, whereas the Yeomanry was the only force which was full in both men and officers, and had responded to the full extent of the demands that were made upon them. Was it not a serious matter? He knew from bitter experience that in matters connected with the military forces we were too fond of pulling up everything to see how it was growing even before it had had time to take root. Only six years had passed away, and this force had

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increased from 9,000 to 27,000 men, and he was perfectly certain that if the reports of the inspectors were laid on the Table it would be found that every regiment, without exception, showed an immense improvement on its condition five years ago. The noble and gallant Field-Marshal had told their Lordships that the first concern which he had when he came back from South Africa was to provide the country with some mounted force, on which it could depend to fill up the gaps, and which could be further trained in case of emergency. The present force of Yeomanry was the outcome of Lord Roberts' solicitude, and the Yeomanry was not merely not to be maintained as it was but was to be placed on a totally different, and, he was afraid he must say, a lower basis. The Yeomanry aspired to be classed with the Militia. The Militia was to be made part of the Regular Army. The commanding officers of the Yeomanry met the War Office last year, and in response to the urgent appeal made to them said they were willing — and they believed their force would support them — to place them on the same conditions as those on which it was now proposed to place the Militia, namely, readiness to go on foreign service. But not merely were they not to be allowed to go on foreign service, but they were told that the fourteen squadrons were to be raised separately as a totally distinct force, the Yeomanry being given the go-by, and to be trained at cavalry headquarters, without any connection with the Yeomanry force from which they received in the last war the most efficient help in filling the gaps in the military force in South Africa. What he ventured himself to say was that that was a short-sighted and a short-memory policy. When the noble Earl told them a few moments ago that the general staff did not want more than fourteen squadrons to reinforce the Regular cavalry, which was not numerous, had the noble Earl and the general staff forgotten how this country had to pour into South Africa in the early months of 1901 30,000 mounted men? And that after the war had been supposed by many to be almost over, and after they had exhausted the whole Regular forces of the Crown. Did the noble Earl really think that in the year 1907 they could afford
1112
to forget everything which occurred in the course of that war and to rely on this obiter dictum of the general staff, of whom they heard for the first time, that 2,100 men was all that could be expected to be required to support the Regular mounted forces of the Crown? He confessed that he felt in a very great difficulty when he came to deal with the Motion which had been made by the noble Earl. The noble Earl maintained, and he thought with justice, that the Yeomanry deserved better treatment than to be thrust back instead of being allowed to move forward, as they had shown some right to be by their disposition and training. But he recognised also that to strike them out of the clause might prove fatal, to the Bill. Was it not possible even now for the Government to realise that if they could not grant the Yeomanry their aspirations, they might at least listen to the warnings addressed to them that the action which they proposed to take must result in a serious depletion of the force? What was going to be gained by saving some £ 50,000 or £ 60,000 a year at the outside on the Yeomanry force? They had heard a good deal about the necessity of economy. The economies at present made by the Government had reduced the Estimates from a little under £ 29,000,000 to a little over £ 28,000,000, and of that a large amount was going to be spent on the Territorial Army. The territorial infantry were going to be raised by from 20,000 to 25,000 men. That might be the opinion of the present general staff, but he had served at the War Office under four Commanders-in-Chief — three Commanders-in-Chief and one acting Commander-in-Chief — and on no occasion did any military authority there during that time inform the Secretary of State that they were deficient in the infantry of what was now to be the Territorial Army. On the contrary, they were told time after time that they had a great deficiency in artillery, cavalry, and mounted troops, but they had a surplus age of infantry. The Government were now going, on the grounds of economy, to save £ 100,000 on the Yeomanry and at the same time to add £ 250,000 for these 25,000 additional infantry, who, according to all the authorities, including that of Earl Roberts, were not required, and for 10,000 of

1113
whom the Government were going to spoil a force which was urgently required, and which those who had most to do with the subject said could not stand except on something like its present conditions. He did not wish to waste their Lordships' time at that hour of the evening, but he thought that the depth of feeling displayed on this subject and the conviction of men who had shown themselves patriotic in the past and were anxious to take the most patriotic course in the present instance, should weigh to some extent with the Government, who must feel that some concession was needed. He had endeavoured to consider whether there was any way in which they could meet, not the wishes of his noble friend, but the obvious requirements of the force, without absolutely endangering the fate of the Bill. The arrangement by which the Yeomanry would not be touched for three years gave them some means of compromise; but the Government, acting as they proposed to do against the advice of those who knew most of the Yeomanry, could not expect them to give them a blank cheque in this matter. When the House parted from this portion of the Bill, unless they put something else in it the destruction of the Yeomanry was entirely in the hands of the Government. If the terms the Government proposed were likely, as his noble friends believed, to cause a fresh depletion of officers and men, Parliament would not be able to say a word afterwards, and therefore he ventured to ask whether his noble friend, if he thought it undesirable to strike the Yeomanry out of the Territorial Army, would be inclined to defer to the views of the Government that the Yeomanry could best serve the country as members of the Territorial Army. In that case he would ask his noble friend if he would accept or support a proposal, which he would put forward as an Amendment to Clause 28, that no change in the pay or status of the Yeomanry should be made except by Order in Council, which Order in Council should lie on the Table of both Houses of Parliament and be subject to any Motion made in regard to it. At least they had a right to claim for the Yeomanry that during these three years Parliament should have an opportunity of considering what fate was proposed for them; and it was in that conviction and
1114
with the desire to forward in a patriotic spirit the view the Government had taken, though he deeply regretted it, and totally dissented from it, that he made this proposal, to which he earnestly hoped the Government would give their earnest consideration.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Where does the noble Viscount proposed to insert the Amendment?
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: After Subsection 1, Clause 28.
*THE EARL OF GRANARDsaid he felt some diffidence in addressing their Lordships on this subject, although he might say that during the time he served in South Africa he acquired a great knowledge of the Yeomanry serving there, and he, as did others, realised what a great-deal of good the Yeomanry did for this country. So far as he understood the Bill it was intended to form the Yeomanry into two lines — virtually fourteen squadrons to be attached to the first line, and the rest in the Territorial Army consisting of twelve brigades. The whole matter seemed to turn on the question of pay. Noble Lords opposite seemed to think that if they paid 2s. 8d. instead of 5s. 6d., they would not get the men. They must see how that worked out. They intended to allow the men to continue to draw 5s. 6d. a day until they had completed their present engagement — that was, for three years. After that period they would come under the new engagement. Several points had been raised by noble Lords. Lord Lovat asked what particular form of training the Government intended to bring in for the Special Contingent. The form of training of the Special Contingent was not absolutely settled. He understood that the present arrangement was that each unit would have fifteen days training with the Regular division to which it was attached, or, failing that, with some other Regular unit. It was obviously necessary that if the Yeomanry were going to act, as they would do, as divisional cavalry they must have an opportunity of working with that force in the field.
LORD LOVAT: Will they only get fifteen days?
*THE EARL OF GRANARD: They would have six months preliminary training in a training squadron and then probably fifteen days with the divisional cavalry.
LORD LOVAT: But where are the training schools?
*THE EARL OF GRANARDsaid the training squadrons would be set up in each regular divisional headquarters. Lord Essex had pointed out that he was very much afraid that under the new regulations they would lose officers. He did not quite follow him in that respect, for, after all, the officers of the Yeomanry were generally men of a certain standing and pretty well off. He did not for a moment think they would lose a valuable class like that. It had often been said that it was a mistake to substitute Yeomanry for divisional cavalry. He had seen a certain number of the cavalry attached to a regular division, and he must say that the ordinary regular cavalry were absolutely lost there. The functions required of divisional cavalry were not very arduous, and were not such as required highly trained men, but men who could ride well and use their common sense. It seemed, therefore, to be a very sound principle to institute these squadrons, and he was perfectly sure they would work excellently in the future.
LORD LOVATsaid he would like to take up one or two points of the noble Lord who had last spoken. In the first place, with reference to the Special Contingent, he took it they were going to be trained in schools which were to be instituted in each command — that was to say, it was proposed to train fifteen or twenty men for six months in fourteen different places. How were they going to train men if there were only going to be twenty or thirty of them — there would be only 100 if they all went — at different times of the year in fourteen different places? The idea seemed ludicrous. It was impossible to make them efficient unless they could get a large number of them together. The Yeomanry had to do certain drills before going up for annual training, because it was found impossible to train men in two's and three's for regimental work. These men were to fulfil the most difficult functions of divisional cavalry. There was no harder
1116
work in the world than that of divisional cavalry. It was ludicrous to send these men into the field after only fifteen days training with the division. If Lord Scarbrough's excellent idea were carried out they would get a squadron trained every year for six months, and in time people would come back to them as non-commissioned officers, and would undoubtedly add to the efficiency of the unit. He hoped what they had heard from Lord Granard did not really represent the views of the Government on the subject of divisional troops, and that the Government were not persuaded that divisional cavalry work was such an easy matter as he thought, or that the cavalry screen was always ahead of the infantry division. Lord Granard had also stated he did not believe that this reduction of Yeomanry was going to make much difference in the force. Might he tell the noble Earl that one class it would certainly wipe out was the man they wanted in the Yeomanry, namely, the agriculturist who owned his horse? The townsman would take on at 2s. 8d. per day and hire a horse and make a sovereign; but the agriculturist was worth 8s. a day in the summer months, and unless he was paid something corresponding to that he would not take the risk with his horse. The Yeomanry must be trained in June, July, or August, and at that period they had to pay not less than 8s. a day in the private market to hire a man and horse, and it was surely worth more if his horse was to be buffeted about the roads, and tethered outside in a cold camp on wet nights instead of being housed. Which was the man going for? The poor man would go for what he got paid for best, and therefore that class would be knocked out of the Yeomanry entirely by this scheme. He should much regret to support the Amendment of Lord Scarbrough, and yet one felt it was one's duty to do so in defence of the Yeomen one commanded. He felt that if Lord Scarbrough's Amendment was passed it would make a very great difference to the excellence of the work which they could hope for from the Territorial Army, and he thought that if it were possible it was advisable that some compromise should be arrived at. Was it worth while for a saving, by knocking off 2s. a day, of between £ 50,000

1117
and £ 60,000, to turn out these men? A saving of £ 20,000 or £ 30,000 could be made without doing the Yeomanry this irreparable harm. They might, in the first place, do that which many of the Yeomanry had already done, and which made for efficiency, and that was to have ten or fifteen cyclists in every squadron. It would add to efficiency rather than detract from it. All cavalry regiments had a certain number of cyclists attached in every squadron. If his suggestion were adopted it would save something like £ 8,000 or £ 9,000. Then if the horses were hired regimentally a saving of £ 8,000 or £ 10,000 could undoubtedly be effected. If a grant of £ 5 was paid to the man who brought his horse, and a regimental grant of £ 4 was paid for the hired horse, money would undoubtedly be saved. Then there might possibly be saving in one or two points of administration too small to go into then; but he thought from £ 25,000 to £ 30,000 might be saved without the proposed reduction being made at all. He hoped before they tied themselves by passing this clause the noble Lord would at all events try and extract from the Government what was the sum actually to be paid for the extra work of the Yeomanry. He did not think the Government were really dealing fairly with the Yeomanry. They had had innumerable meetings with the officials, and everything that the Yeomanry had been asked to do they had done, and now in the end the Government tried to strike a bargain, and would not say which side theirs was.
*LORD HARRISsaid he understood Lord Granard to say that the cause of their dissatisfaction was the pay of the Yeomanry. That was an entire mistake. It was a cause which might result in a very different class of men joining the force; but the cause of their dissatisfaction was that their traditions were being ignored. What they had done in maintaining the force in the face of opposition of every kind, from Parliament as well as from the War Office, and in raising the force to a condition which had won the enconiums passed upon it by Lord Methuen in that debate — that was all to be ignored. Their regard and affection
1118
for the force and its traditions were to be ignored and they were to be degraded. He hoped it was not misunderstood by gallant comrades in the Volunteers. He meant it in its literal sense — that they were being put on the level of a force which was junior to them, instead of being kept with the force which was senior to them and to which they had belonged for the last seven years. He trusted that the Undersecretary for War would impress on his chief the very strong feeling that had been displayed by members of the force and induce him to believe that what they had said was by way of very serious warning as to what they apprehended might happen. They did not speak from any selfish motive, but because they feared the same class of man would not be secured when these very material alterations were made in the conditions of service, and that in the end it would not be an economy to the Government. They would get men who did not understand about the management of horses and were careless about horses, and to whom it would be far more difficult to teach horsemanship. Consequently a great bulk of the saving would be lost. The Under-Secretary for War had had a suggestion made to him by Lord Midleton and he hoped the noble Earl, before this Bill passed, would be able to give some assurance that it had received favourable consideration from the Cabinet. He admitted that some concessions had been made, but he was sure the noble Earl would see the very great difficulty that would inevitably arise among the Yeomanry if two different rates of pay were in force. It would be very difficult to accommodate all the conditions of life in a regiment to two rates of pay, and if the concession could be made as regarded the present men continuing until 1910 on their present rates of pay — that was to say it would give them three years of grace as regarded every man in the force — it might be possible to come to some compromise which would be far more satisfactory to the Yeomanry and give the Secretary of State a far more efficient force than he was going to get under this Bill. The Committee was at present placed in a serious dilemma in voting upon the Amendment. On the one hand, they were threatened with

1119
the destruction of the Yeomanry Force if they supported the Amendment; on the other hand, they saw the prospect of a much inferior force arising in the future. He was disposed in the circumstances to ask his noble friend whether it was not the duty of their lordships to avoid doing anything which might result in the destruction of the force, and to run the risk of allowing the force to remain, even though it might be hereafter inferior in its composition. That seemed the wise course for them to take, and the more patriotic. They had done their best to show the dangers in which the country was placed if this change took place. If the Government, notwithstanding, was resolved under no circumstances to make this change, then the responsibility was not theirs.
THE EARL OF CREWE: The two noble Lords who spoke last, both with great authority, made very moderate and reasonable speeches. They will, I am sure, forgive me if I do not enter into all the technical points which have been raised. I rather desire to address myself to the general aspect of the debate, and to turn to the Amendment moved by the noble Earl opposite. There are, in fact, two entirely separate questions involved — first, whether the Yeomanry should form part of the first or second line of the force of the country, and, secondly, what are to be the provisions of pay as regards the Yeomanry? That, of course, is important, because I am able to gather from the speech of the noble Viscount, and also from other speeches made in the course of the debate, that if this question of pay could be settled to the satisfaction of the noble Earl opposite they would, I understand, join in asking him to withdraw his Amendment. The noble Viscount Lord Midleton complained that the reply of my noble friend was of an unsympathetic character. That is hardly a fair adjective. It was distinctly of an official character, and it was not reasonable to describe it as more unsympathetic than official replies habitually are. On this question of pay, I take it that it has not been a cheese-paring idea of my right hon. friend to cut off £ 1,000 here, and £ 1,000 there, so much as to endeavour to approximate the pay of the different
1120
parts of the Territorial Army to ordinary service conditions. That has been his idea. It is no doubt true, as stated by the noble Earl, I think, in the course of his very complete opening speech, that it does not do to drive that nail too far home, and that where you have a voluntary Army you are bound to make a certain allowance for the difference between the classes of people who join the different forces. That we fully admit, and, therefore, on this question of pay, my right hon. friend is distinctly open to conviction, and he will consider how far it is possible to meet the views of noble Lords opposite. As to the question whether the Yeomanry should form part of the first line or of the second, I confess I have been somewhat puzzled by the different arguments which have been used. I hear one moment of the Yeomanry being composed of farmers with their farms to manage, of clerks who presumably can only get a limited amount of leave, and who are therefore naturally dependent on receiving a fair rate of pay while they are under service conditions, and then we are told that these men are practically to form part of the Regular Army of the country. That is surely a most puzzling and self-contradictory series of statements. I confess I am entirely unable to understand how, if you propose to go on recruiting the Yeomanry from the farming class and clerks in the towns, you are going to place them in precisely the same position as the Militia, who are recruited from an entirely different stratum of society and who are likely to be able, as we hope, to undertake the obligation of foreign service. I think it is important that that point should be cleared up, because the speech of the noble and gallant Earl, who apparently contemplated that the Yeomanry should be really a foreign-service Army, conveyed to my mind an entirely different impression from that of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Methuen, who I think, contemplated the Yeomanry forming part of the Territorial Army at home. I am bound to point out once more that the object of my right hon. friend is to form an Army for home defence, of which the Yeomanry should be the cavalry force, and it was in that connection that my noble friend behind me spoke of the acceptance of this

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Amendment as possibly involving the disappearance of the Yeomanry Force; and for this reason, that it would be impossible to have a Territorial Army at all unless some cavalry force is attached to it. It has been suggested that 20,000 cyclists should be substituted for the Yeomanry, but I do not know what the military authorities would say to a home defence Army without a single horseman attached to it. As regards the question of pay, as I have said, my right hon. friend is quite open to consider very carefully the question whether it would be possible to approximate further to the present rate of pay, or, at any rate, of allowances, in the new arrangement, and it is with the view of arriving at a decision on that question that the period of delay has been advised. But I am obliged to give a direct negative to the proposal of the noble Viscount, Lord Midleton, that no change in the pay of the Yeomanry should be made except by Order in Council, which should be laid upon the Table of both Houses and accepted or refused by either. I can recall no precedent whatever for the proposal that the pay of any branch of His Majesty's Army should be decided by an Order in Council in the first place, afterwards amended by Parliament. The noble Viscount has sat in another place, and I, unfortunately, have not, but I think he must be aware that it would be altogether impossible for those who sit in another place to accept a condition of that kind in relation to the pay of any branch of His Majesty's forces. There is no precedent for anything of the kind, and I am afraid, therefore, that on this matter of pay we must ask the noble Viscount and noble Lords opposite to trust to the common sense of my right hon. friend, and the natural desire both of the Government and of the Army Council that the Yeomanry should prosper. I must tell my noble friend that it is impossible for us to accept the particular Amendment which he desires to place on the Paper later.
LORD MONTAGUE OF BEAULIEUsaid that if the cavalry were withdrawn from the Territorial Army that Army would practically become a farce, for with the exception of companies of mounted infantry, it would have no
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cavalry at all. Speaking as a Volunteer, he would like to see the Yeomanry retained in the Territorial Army, but he supported their claim for adequate allowances.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHdesired to say a few words on the Amendment in view of the fact that he had been for many years connected with the Yeomanry. It was his duty the other day to go down and receive instruction in further military duties in the position which he occupied in the Yeomanry Force, and he made careful inquiries on Salisbury Plain as to the exact duties which would be required of the Yeomanry attached to the first line of defence. It was explained to him by those who, he believed, were thoroughly qualified to judge of what would occur in the event of an Army corps being sent abroad, that in the first place there would be a great screen of cavalry under an independent command; they would be supported by a screen of mounted infantry, and behind would march the divisional troops, and the duties of the squadron of Yeomanry attached to each division would be to protect those divisional troops. He inquired what the exact position of the Yeomanry would be, and was assured that the Yeomanry as a unit would never be preserved; the squadron itself would never be preserved, but would be broken up into sections for various duties connected with the division. Therefore the position of the commanding officer would be of no use at all, as he would have nothing whatever to do. If that was the exact position which the Yeomanry were going to occupy with regard to the division to which they would be attached, it seemed to him a considerable waste of time and money that the squadrons which were to be employed in the first line should go through six months training in the various other duties to which noble Lords had referred that evening. With, regard to the pay, of course it was impossible for anyone to say whether they would be able to preserve in the Yeomanry the same class of man they now got if they gave him 2s. 8d. a day instead of the pay he now received. But there was one point in connection with the Yeomanry which he did not think had been alluded to. The evolution of the Yeomanry during the last ten years;

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had been very remarkable. When he as a youth first joined, it was the duty of these men simply to learn and practice sword exercises. Since then they had learnt to use a rifle efficiently, and he believed the ultimate employment of the Yeomanry would be that of scouts. It was not for him to dwell upon the lessons of recent wars, because he was not a military authority, but he understood that the branch of the Service to which the military authorities attached as much importance as to any other was the corps of highly educated men with knowledge of wireless telegraphy and other methods of transmitting information. Undoubtedly in the future an endeavour would be made to train the men who would have to act as screens in front of the army in the acquiring and transmission of information as speedily as possible, and he could not help feeling that the duties in the future of the Yeomanry would be to act as scouts, and by the employment of modern machinery transmit information from the front to the troops in the rear. If that were so, he asked the Government to pause before they did anything which would remove from the ranks those highly intelligent and skilled artisans who now entered them, and replace them with men of lower intelligence and less skill. He therefore associated himself with the proposal of his noble friend Lord Midleton that the Government should defer lowering the pay of the Yeomanry, and that they should only do so by Order in Council, the Papers connected with which would be laid on the Table of both Houses of Parliament.
*EARL FORTESCUEwished to add his plea to those which had already been put forward for sympathetic treatment of the Yeomanry, which was the only force in which what he might call the lower middle classes of the country enlisted. It was the ambition of the Secretary of State, and one with which they must all sympathise, that the Territorial Army in the future should be a national Army, truly representative of the various classes. He did not think that could be said to be the case at present. There were about 4,000,000 people in this country of the class who were assessed for income-tax at anything between £ 160 and £ 700 a year. It was notorious that that class did not provide recruits for the Regular
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Army or for the Militia, for, except in the case of a few special regiments, for the Volunteers; and it was equally certain that from lack of means they found very few officers for either the Army or the Auxiliary Forces. The only portion of the national forces in which they enlisted, except a few class regiments of Volunteers, was the Yeomanry, and it would be a great misfortune if anything were done to check the flow of recruits from that quarter. The efficiency of the Yeomanry as a force had been fully shown in the debates, and it was obvious, considering the shortness of the training, that it would have been impossible to obtain such results unless there had been a very intelligent class of men in the ranks. He hoped the Government would do all they could to increase the chances of enlisting such men in the future.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I do not think that anyone can have listened to this discussion without being deeply impressed by the weight of the arguments which have been advanced by noble Lords who have commanded Yeomanry regiments. They take part in this debate as experts, and as experts they warn us that if the Yeomanry are left where the Bill, as now drawn, leaves them we cannot expect to have either the same number of men, or, if the same number of men, then not the same class of men, in the force in future. My noble friend Lord Scarbrough proposes to meet those objections by an Amendment which would have the effect of removing the Yeomanry from the Territorial Army. If we on this side of the House were responsible for the Bill, I feel little doubt that we should have treated the Yeomanry in a different manner, but we are not responsible for this Bill. It is a Bill for which His Majesty's Government are responsible; it is one which your Lordships have read a second time; and it is impossible to listen to the speeches which have been made from the Front Bench opposite without realising that, in the opinion of noble Lords on that Bench, it is an essential part of their scheme that the Yeomanry should remain in the Territorial Army. That being so, I cannot take upon myself to advise my noble friend to persist in his Amendment. But it is clear that, although the retention of the Yeomanry in the Territorial Army forms

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a great part of the grievance upon which my noble friends have dealt to-night, it is not their only grievance. They dwelt also upon the harshness of the bargain which His Majesty's Government mean to impose on the Yeomanry, and I must say it seems to me to be the duty of His Majesty's Government, if they do insist upon keeping the Yeomanry in the Territorial Army, to mitigate the harshness of that bargain so far as it is possible for them to do so. The noble Earl who represents the War Office and my noble friend the Lord President have certainly held out hopes that some improvement in the terms which will be offered to the Yeomanry is to be expected, and I certainly trust that before the debate in Committee is concluded we shall obtain from noble Lords opposite a definite offer in that direction. My noble friend Lord Midleton proposed to deal with the matter by the method which he described to the House just now. I gather that that method does not find favour in the eyes of the noble Earl the Lord President, but it does not by any means follow that that is the only means of obtaining for the Yeomanry that, I will not say generous, but just, treatment which they demand at your hands, and I therefore hope that tomorrow we shall hear from the noble Earl in charge of the Bill that it is the intention of the War Office to meet us on those points, as I am bound to say they have endeavoured to meet us at other points in this Bill. It is surely not too much to hope that if economic considerations lie at the root of this proposal it may be possible to effect savings without pressing so heavily upon the Yeomanry as the proposals of His Majesty's Government now press. The sum which is to be saved is, I am told — and on this I do not think my noble friend Lord Midleton has been contradicted — something between £ 50,000 and £ 100,000, and I cannot bring myself to believe that it should be beyond the powers of His Majesty's Government to save that money in some other direction or by some other means.
*THE EARL OF CREWE: I am very unwilling to interrupt the noble Marquess, but I did explicitly state that our action was not founded so much upon economical grounds as upon a desire not to differentiate greatly between the different branches of His Majesty's Forces.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am bound to say that argument has been met by some of the speeches made by noble Lords who command Yeomanry regiments, and who have shown, to my mind conclusively, that the class of man you now get belongs to a different social stratum and expects and deserves a somewhat higher rate of remuneration. I therefore hope that as we have been met sympathetically at other points so in regard to this point, to which we on this side attach very great importance, we shall be met not less sympathetically.
*THE EARL OF SCARBROUGHsaid he fully realised the gravity of the situation which would be created if he pressed his Amendment to a division, and after what had been said by the noble Marquess he had no intention of doing so. But ho would once more emphasise the necessity of liberal treatment for the Yeomanry. If the Government would treat them liberally in peace time he was perfectly confident that they would be ready to serve at Army rates in time of war.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Consequential Amendment agreed to.
On Question, that Clause 1 as amended, stand part of the Bill,
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREpressed for further information with reference to the position of Ireland under this clause. He did so at the request of his noble friend Lord Shaftesbury, who was very much interested in the matter, but whose other public duties had called him away to Ireland that evening. They wanted to know what the intentions of the Government were with regard to the setting up of County Associations in Ireland. The position there was rather peculiar. There were no Volunteers in Ireland, but there were two regiments of Yeomanry each recruiting over about a dozen counties. Was it the intention of the Government that there should be a County Association to deal with those two units of the Territorial Army? He had understood that it was not the intention to set up County Associations in Ireland, but later in the Bill it appeared t hat the Government intended, under certain conditions, to do so. He thought that, without entering into the controversy whether it

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was desirable to have County Associations or not, noble Lords from Ireland were entitled to know definitely what the intentions of His Majesty's Government were, and whether there would be any objection to an Amendment being moved at a later stage saying definitely that Clause 1 was not to apply to Ireland.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid he could state definitely that it was not intended to set up County Associations in Ireland. He questioned, however, whether it would be wise actually to insert words in the Bill prohibiting them from doing so.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:—
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUmoved to amend that portion of Clause 2 which provides that —
"An Association shall have, exercise, and discharge such powers and duties connected with the organisation and administration of His Majesty s military forces as may for the time being be transferred or assigned to it,"
by inserting the the word "equipment," after the word "organisation." He had placed this Amendment on the Paper with a view of ascertaining whether it was intended to add the duty of equipping the forces to the other duties of the association. On page 4, line 16, there was a sub-section which referred to the safe custody of arms and equipments; yet equipment was not referred to specifically in the beginning of Clause 2. He thought it was important that equipment should be one of the duties of the County Associations, and he would like to know how, when new equipment had to be provided, it would be allocated between the different portions of the forces under the control of the County Associations.
Amendment moved —
"In page 3, line 23, after the word "organisation," to insert the word ' equipment.' "— (Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHsaid the Amendment was unnecessary as the point was already covered. Administration included maintenance, and this embraced questions of clothing, equipment, and so forth. Therefore the insertion of the word "equipment" where proposed by the noble Lord was unnecessary.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LOVATmoved to amend paragraph (e) —
"(e) Arranging with employers of labour as to holidays for training, and ascertaining the times of training best suited to the circumstances of civil life,"
by omitting all words after "training" to the end of the paragraph. The recruiting areas of a great many Yeomanry regiments, especially in Scotland, embraced several counties, and if the County Associations could dictate as to the time when Yeomanry regiments were to come out for training, it might easily happen that one county might fix one time and another county covered by the same corps might fix another. He submitted that the question as to the times of training best suited to the circumstances was one for the officers commanding the units.
Amendment moved —
"In page 4, line 6, to leave out from the word ' training' to the end of paragraph (e)."— (Lord Lovat)
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH:thought the noble Lord was under some misapprehension as to the necessity for this Amendment. The only object of the latter part of the paragraph in question was to provide assistance to the military authorities with regard to local circumstances, of which they could actually have very little definite knowledge. There were complaints from time to time that the War Office and the local military authorities did not pay sufficient regard to local circumstances in fixing the dates of camps, etc. The omission of the words which the noble Lord had proposed to delete would have no other effect than to leave things in the present unsatisfactory condition. He hoped the noble Lord would not press the Amendment.
LORD LOVATsaid he would not press the Amendment, but he thought the Government might consider the advisability of inserting after the word "ascertaining" the words "from officers commanding units." The paragraph would then read that the County Association should ascertain the times of training best suited to the circumstances of civil life from the officers commanding the various units.
*THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHundertook to consider the point, and, if necessary, to bring up an Amendment regarding it on Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
House resumed, and to be again in Committee to-morrow.
House adjourned at half-past Eleven o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.