Lords Sitting of 2 July 1907

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with: North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply.
Also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with: Central London Railway.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Central London Railway Bill. —Examiners' Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.
Leeds Corporation Bill. —Reported, with Amendments.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill. —Reported, without Amendment, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To- morrow.
Great Northern and City Railway Bill. —Reported, with an Amendment.
Tramways Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]; Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]. —Reported, with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
Portishead District Water Bill [H.L.]. —Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
General Accident Fire and Life Assurance Corporation, Limited, Bill [H.L.]; Ocean Accident and Guarantee Corporation Bill [H.L.]. —Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill —Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Suffield be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Lord Bowes (E. Strathmore and Kinghorn); read, and agreed to.
Dundee Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. —Read 2a (according to order), and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been reported from the Committee; and Bill to be read 3aTo-morrow.

PETITION.
  QUALIFICATION OF WOMEN (COUNTY AND BOROUGH COUNCILS) BILL [H.L.]
  Petition against; of the Westminster City Council; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  FRANCE (No. 1), 1907.
  Despatch from His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris transmitting the Treaty between France and Siam; signed at Bangkok, 23rd March, 1907.

  FISHERIES (SCOTLAND).
  Twenty-fifth Annual Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland, being for the year 1906. Part II. Salmon Fisheries.
  Presented (by Command) and ordered to lie on the Table.

  THE ARTILLERY.
  The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: I beg to ask the noble Earl the Undersecretary of State for War a Question of which I have given him private notice, arising out of a discussion that took place last night in regard to the Royal Artillery. The Question is whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to postpone any further reduction in the Regular Artillery until properly qualified men of the Special Contingent are available to take their place.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE for WAR (The Earl of Portsmouth): My Lords, I must express my thanks to the noble Marquess for having given me private notice of the Question. In reply I would beg to refer him to a statement which I made on July 24th of last year. I then said—
  "There will be no reduction in the artillery until trained Militiamen, liable to serve abroad, can take their place."
  Our policy in this matter has not changed, and we do not intend to make any reduction in the Regular Artillery until properly qualified men of the Special Contingent are available to take their place.

SALMON AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order).
[The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2: —
The Earl of CAMPERDOWN: had Amendments on the Paper to insert the word "provisional" before the word "Order" in three places in this clause and in several places in subsequent clauses. He explained that these were merely drafting Amendments, but were for the purpose of securing the uniform use of the phrase "provisional order." As the clause now stood, the term "provisional order" was used in one or two instances, and the word "order" in others. It was desirable that there should be no doubt what was meant, and he hoped his noble friend in charge of the Bill would have no objection to inserting the word "provisional." He begged to move the first Amendment standing in his name.
Amendment moved—
"In page 2, line 2, after the second 'the' to insert the word 'provisional.' "—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD of AGRICULTURE and FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON)said the general principle adopted by the draftsman had been to use the expression "provisional order" once in each clause and sub-clause, and to subsequently refer to it
488
as the "order." The insertion of the word "provisional" in the place now proposed was unnecessary. He was afraid, therefore, he could not accept the Amendment.
The Earl OF CAMPERDOWNasked the noble Earl to give his reason for not accepting the first Amendment.
Earl CARRINGTONrepeated that the general principle adopted by the draftsman had been to use the expression "provisional order" once in each clause or sub-clause and to subsequently refer to it as the "order." To call it a provisional order in every case would require about a dozen Amendments beyond those on the Paper. The Amendments were purely drafting, and, if adopted, would not in any way affect the Bill. He appealed to the noble Earl, in these circumstances, not to press his Amendment. The Government were perfectly willing to agree to the insertion of the word "provisional" in two cases later.
The Earl OF CAMPERDOWNsaid the argument the noble Earl had used was a good one for rejecting the word "provisional" in every case where he proposed to insert it. Why in two particular cases he was willing to accept the Amendment and not in others he could not understand.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of Onslow)thought Lord Carrington's point was quite clear. Clause 2 commenced with the words," Any such provisional order," and the noble Earl's contention was that the word "order" wherever used again in that clause necessarily meant the provisional order.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNdid not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL CARRINGTONsaid his first Amendment was intended to enable the Board to deal with such cases as the abolition of netting in narrow water, which might be desirable in the general interests of the river but might seriously injure particular fishing. In the absence

489
of some power to secure the payment of compensation difficulty might arise in staving off objection to an order on this ground. It was not intended in any way that the powers should be exercised in such a manner as to encourage claims for compensation by every person who felt aggrieved by the means taken to improve the river generally.
Amendment moved—
In page 3, line 7, after the word 'pro visions,' to insert the words' including pro visions for payment of compensation to persons injuriously affected by the order.' "— (Earl Carrington.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: moved to insert a new subsection, which, he said, had been drafted for the purpose of meeting a grievance felt by owners of fishery establishments. He understood that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill would accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
"In page 3, line 23, after the word ' advertisement ' to insert as a new subsection: '(4) An order under this Act shall not apply to any waters in which the business of artificially propagating or rearing salmon or trout is carried on under a licence granted by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and any such licence may be granted by the Board, subject to such conditions (if any) as they think fit, and may be revoked if the Board are of opinion that any condition has not been observed.' "— (The Earl of Denbigh.)
EARL CARRINGTONsaid it had been pointed out that to include fish farms in a district and to subject them to assessment would be likely seriously to hamper this industry. Fish farms, moreover, would not derive material benefit from the conservancy of the river. He thought the Amendment ought to be accepted, as it only referred to farms that were bond fide and carried on under proper conditions.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3: —
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid he supposed the noble Earl would accept
490
the Amendment to insert the word "provisional" in this case, as the word "order" was here the second word of the clause.
Amendment moved—
"In page 3, line 24, to leave out the word 'An,' and to insert the words 'A provisional.' " —(The Earl of Camperdown.)
EARL CARRINGTONaccepted the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD NEWTONmoved to substitute "one-fourth" for "one-tenth." The clause as proposed to be amended would read—
"An order under this Act shall not be made except on the application of a board of conservators constituted under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Acts, or of a county council, or of persons who, in the opinion of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, are the owners of 'one-fourth' at least in value of the private fisheries proposed to be regulated or constitute a majority of the persons holding licences to fish in public waters within the area of the proposed order. …"
He explained that he had put down this Amendment because it had been represented to him that one-tenth was much too small a proportion to bring into effect the rather complicated machinery of this Bill. It appeared to him rather unreasonable that it should be within the power of, perhaps, one individual to put persons to considerable trouble and expense; and he suggested, therefore, that the proportion of one-tenth should be altered to one-fourth.
Amendment moved—
"In page 3, line 28, to leave out the word ' one-tenth ' and to insert the word ' one-fourth.' "—(Lord Newton.)
EARL CARRINGTON:said he was quite prepared to accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL CARRINGTON: moved to amend the provision—
"Every such application shall be advertised in such manner as the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries direct "—
by inserting, after the word "advertised," the words "by the applicants."

491
The provision as it stood was, he said, ambiguous as to the party responsible for advertising the application, and the Amendment was intended to remedy this. They wanted to make it quite clear by whom the advertisement was to be made.
Amendment moved—
"In page 3, line 32, after the word 'advertised' to insert the words ' by the applicants.' " — (Earl Carrington.)
On Question. Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4: —
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNagain moved to insert the word "provisional," and said that to be consistent the noble Earl must accept the Amendment in this case.
Amendment moved—
"In page 3, line 30, to leave out the word ' an,' and to insert the words 'a provisional.' " — (The Earl of Camperdown.)
EARL CARRINGTONaccepted the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNthen moved to insert the words "terms of the draft" before the Word "order" in the last line of Subsection 2, which, as amended, would read—
"The Board may, if they think it expedient, hold a local inquiry by an inspector or other officer of the Board with respect to any objections made to the draft order, and shall, after considering all such objections and the report of the officer who held the inquiry (if any) thereon, settle the ' terms of the draft' order."
The term "settle the order," at present in the subsection, was not one which had often been used in drafting. He thought it appeared in one of the Land Bills this year, but, as far as he could make out, the term might be taken, in the absence of some explanation, to mean that the Board would have the power to settle the order itself, especially with reference to the provision in the next clause that the Board might submit the order to Parliament for confirmation. He sup posed that the meaning was that the
492
Board of Agriculture should settle the terms of the draft order, and it was better to make that plain by inserting the words in his Amendment.
Amendment moved—
"In page 4. line 12, after the second ' the,' to insert the words 'terms of the draft.' "—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
EARL CARRINGTONsaid the Government considered the Amendment an improvement of the clause and gladly accepted it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5: —
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: moved to provide that, if while the confirming Bill is pending in either House, a petition is presented against any order comprised therein, the Bill, so far as it relates to that order, "shall" be referred to a Select Committee, and not "may," as provided in the clause. Under the clause as it stood there was no obligation to refer to a Select Committee. Surely the petitioner ought to have the right to have his case heard, and to secure this it was essential that the word "may" should be altered to "shall."
Amendment moved—
"In page 4, line 20, to leave out the word 'may' and insert the word 'shall.' "—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
EARL CARRINGTON: could not accept the Amendment because the Standing Orders of the two Houses made the necessary provision for dealing with opposed Provisional Orders by referring them to Committees. Therefore the Amendment was unnecessary. There was another objection- namely, that by accepting the Amendment they would be departing from the model form. In the circumstances he hoped the noble Earl would not press the Amendment.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid the argument of the noble Earl appeared to be that the Amendment was unnecessary, because the Standing Orders of both Houses stated that where a petition was presented the Bill should be referred

493
to a Select Committee. If that was provided for by the Standing Orders, what possible objection could there be to the Bill also stating that there should be a reference to a Committee? If the word "may" were left in, a doubt would be created which was only removed by the application of the Standing Orders of Parliament to the clause. The noble Earl had said that whether "may" did or did not stand part of the clause the result was the same. If that was so, it was better to use wording about which there could be no mistake. His noble friend had followed this course in several Amendments in the Agricultural Holdings Act of last year, and he was afraid that as a result he (Lord Camperdown) would have to trouble the House a little later by showing what a mistake had been committed through not pointing out clearly what was intended. It was much better to state what was meant, and he would, therefore, press the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6: —
EARL CARRINGTONmoved to omit Subsection (1), which provided that the expenses incurred by the Board of Agriculture in respect of any order should be paid by the applicants for the order. He said that this provision might bear hardly on small fisheries boards, whose funds were rather limited. He moved this Amendment as the result of the objection that was taken to the subsection on the Second Reading of the Bill by the Earl of Harewood.
Amendment moved—
"In page 4, lines 30 to 36, to leave out Subsection (1)." — (Earl Carrington.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 7: —
EARL CARRINGTONsaid the object of his Amendment to this clause was to make it quite clear that, though the Crown was not, without consent, to be bound in any way by the Bill, it would be possible, with a proper consent given
494
on behalf of the Crown or the Duchy affected, to include the Crown or Duchy fisheries within the scope of any order made under the Bill.
Amendment moved—
"In page 5, line 8, after the word 'Act' to insert the words ' or any fishery proposed to be affected by any such order.' "— (Earl Carrington.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Consequential Amendments agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8: —
Earl CARRINGTON: moved the insertion of the words "in Dumfriesshire" to remove any ambiguity as to which Esk was referred to, there being more than one river of that name.
Amendment moved—
"In page 5, line 36, after the word ' Esk ' to insert the words ' in Dumfriesshire.' "— (Earl Carrington.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill reported with Amendments to the House.
Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 90.)

LIMITED PARTNERSHIP BILL.
[Second Reading.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, as your Lordships were good enough to pass this Bill through all its stages, when I proposed it last year, and as it was also passed some years ago when proposed by Lord Bramwell, it is probably not necessary for me now to detain you for more than a few minutes in moving the Second Reading. Last year it was lost in the other House, not from any opposition, but from lack of time. It has now passed the House of Commons, and the discussions there turned merely on points of detail. The object is to introduce the system which abroad is

495
known as commandite, which has been in operation for many years in Europe and the United States, and is found most useful. It was examined some years ago by a Parliamentary Committee, which reported in its favour. It is supported by the chambers of commerce, and, indeed, by commercial opinion generally. Some good judges have considered that if it had been introduced before limited liability, much loss of capital would have been avoided. The Bill is substantially as passed by your Lordships last year, but there are some changes in detail, which in our judgment are not altogether in the right direction, and as to which it may be necessary to say something in Committee, but I need not trouble the House in the matter at the present stage. Last year there was no opposition, and I hear of none now. His Majesty's Government have been good enough to inform me that they do not oppose the Bill, and in these circumstances I will not go into any details at the present stage, but without more words will move the Second Reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(Lord Avebury.)
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, the Bill which my noble friend has asked your Lordships to read a Second Time to-night is one to which His Majesty's Government do not propose to offer any opposition, although they naturally reserve the right of introducing Amendments at a later stage should that course be considered necessary. The system of limited partnerships, or the en commandite system, seems to have worked excellently in other countries in which it has been in force and to have been of great help to commercial industries. This subject was brought before the Departmental Committee on Company Law which sat at the Board of Trade two or three years ago, and the Report of that Committee was unanimously in favour of introducing the system into this country. I do not think it is necessary for me to say more at the present stage, but simply to ask your Lordships to give the Bill your favourable consideration.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

BRITISH NORTH AMERICA BILL.
[Second Reading.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of Elgin): My Lords, I have not much to say in explanation of this Bill. It deals with payments from the Dominion Government of Canada to the Provinces of Canada, but it is necessary to have legislation in this country because these payments come in substitution for the payments which are provided for in the British North America Act, 1867. A conference was held at Ottawa between the Dominion Government and the Provincial Governments, and the pro visions of this Bill follow on an address from the Dominion Government which represented the findings of that conference. There is this urgency about the matter, that to meet the financial requirements of the provinces it was desired that the Bill should be enacted before 1st July. Owing to delays in another place that has not been possible, but I hope your Lordships will be disposed to give the Bill a Second Reading to-day, and allow it to take the other stages early next week. I beg to move.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"— (The Earl of Elgin.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

QUEENS BARRACKS, PERTH.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the recruits' receiving room at Queen's Barracks, Perth, is considered by the authorities as adequate and sanitary; whether a bath room is provided in these quarters separate from the bath accommodation for duly enlisted men; and whether a bathroom has been provided for the officers' quarters in Queen's Barracks but no bath, and no provision made for the supply of either cold or hot water.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, in reply to the first two Questions of the noble Earl I may inform him that the matter of the

497
recruits' receiving room and the provision of a separate bathroom are at present under consideration, and we are in correspondence with the local military authorities on the subject. In reply to the other Question, the provision of a bath room for the officers' quarters has been approved if the necessary funds can be found from the annual allotment made to the General Officer commanding in the Scottish Command. The completion of the service is temporarily suspended, I am sorry to say, for want of funds, but every effort will be made to provide the necessary funds as soon as possible.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: The reply to my last Question is hardly a complete Answer. What I wanted to elicit was why a bathroom had been allotted and other moneys spent on works in barracks which were never required and not asked for, and why a bathroom was provided but no bath. Perhaps the noble Earl can tell me when the funds will be found to provide the bath.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I can assure the noble Earl that the funds will be found as soon as possible.

THE MILITIA AND THE ARMY BILL.
THE DUCK OF BEDFORD: My Lords, I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War—(1) What is the form of attestation to be signed by a Militiaman of each branch of the service on his transfer from the Militia to the Army Reserve as proposed by the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill? (2) Is it proposed to give any bounty to the Militiamen to induce them to transfer to the 3rd and 4th battalions? (3) What is to be the pay, bounty, and allowances of the Militiamen when transferred to the Army Reserve under the Bill? (4) What is to be the rate of pay of the recruits joining the proposed new 3rd and 4th battalions? (5) Is it proposed that the arrangements now applying to the Militia as regards clothing should be continued to the new 3rd and 4th battalions? (6) Will the Militia non commissioned officers who transfer to the 3rd and 4th battalions when called upon to servo with the Regular line battalions, 1st and 2nd, be allowed to retain their rank 1 (7) On what terms will a Militia man who has transferred to the new 3rd and 4th battalions be allowed to
498
purchase his discharge from the Army? (8) If any bounty is given to a Militiaman to transfer to the new 3rd and 4th battalions will he be required to refund such bounty on joining the Colours? (9) Will Militiamen now serving who elect to remain under the Militia Act of 1882 until time expired, and who are not called up for training, receive non-training bounty? and (10) Will Militiamen now serving be allowed to take their discharge free if they decide not to join the new 3rd and 4th battalions or the Territorial Army?
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, the Answers to the ten Questions put to me by the noble Duke are as follows:—(1) An attestation form has been drawn up, to be signed by a Militia man of each branch on his transfer from the Militia to the Special Reserve. (2) It is our intention to offer a bonus of £2 to every Militiaman of over one year's service who is permitted and agrees to transfer. (3) We propose that (a) the pay and allowances shall be as at present for Militia; (b) the bounties will be rather less than at present, in view of the shorter annual training; they will amount to £4 instead of £4 10s. (4) The rate of pay will be as now for Militia recruits. (5) The issues of clothing are at present under consideration. (6) Yes. (7) This Question involves numerous and complicated details which have not yet been finally settled. (8) Men who receive a bounty to transfer to the Special Contingent will-not be allowed to join the Regulars within one year without refunding the bounty.(9) Yes. (10) Yes.
LORD BLYTHSWOOD: Might I ask the noble Earl whether the attestation paper is sufficiently ready, so that we may be able to see it?
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: The reason I have not been able to give the form is that it is not yet complete, but as soon as it is ready I shall be very glad to lay it on the Table.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, in reference to the reply of the noble Earl the Under-Secretary to Question No. 2, dealing with the bounty which it is pro posed to offer to Militiamen, might I ask him whether the Government have considered that under the present rates of

499
pay the Militia is largely short of its establishment, and that the £2 bounty proposed to be given on one occasion only to induce the Militia to undertake very grave additional duties is out of all pro portion to what has been given in the past; and whether His Majesty's Government have any reason to think that the £2 bounty will be sufficient to obtain the men whom we all desire should be obtained.
[No Answer was returned.]

SECOND CHAMBERS IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, I beg to move, on behalf of the Committee now sitting in your Lordships' House, for a Return of the Second Chambers in foreign countries, their composition, and their functions. I understand that the Return is unopposed.
Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for a Return of the Second Chambers in foreign countries, their composition, and their functions." —(The Lord Rosebery (E. Rosebery).)
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of Ripon): His Majesty's Government will be very happy to give the Return asked for.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

TRAINING OF THE SPECIAL RESERVE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War what arrangements are proposed for the training, preliminary and annual, of the Special Reserve or Militia, in pursuance of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill. Your Lord ships will remember that some six weeks ago the noble Earl the Under-Secretary was good enough, in reply to my noble friend Lord Wemyss, to give an account of what the training would probably be of the Special Reservists under the Territorial Forces Bill. I do not know whether the Government still adhere precisely to the terms which he then stated. There has been, of course, a substantial change in the Bill since he spoke, because now the Militia are to be
500
the Special Reserve which formerly they were not to be; and I beg to put this Question in order that your Lordships should be fully informed of how this training really stands.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, I make no complaint that this Question has been asked, and I am glad to give the noble Marquess all the information in my power. It is proposed that the training, preliminary and annual, of the Special Reserve (infantry) shall be as follows:—Recruits, preliminary training on enlistment, six months; annual training, fifteen days, and in addition a course comprising six days musketry practice. The above periods of training may require modification when practical experience has been obtained. It may prove of advantage to reduce somewhat the period of recruits' preliminary training and to lengthen somewhat the period of annual training. The recruits' training of the 3rd and 4th battalions will be carried out at the depots, and an adequate staff will be provided for the purpose. In certain cases it may be necessary to permit some units to carry out their instruction of recruits by means of "preliminary drill" immediately prior to annual training. The annual training will be usually carried out as battalions in camp in suitable localities. The annual musketry will be carried out as is found most convenient to battalions, possibly either immediately before or immediately after the annual training, or even at other times if found more convenient to the battalion. By means of this elasticity, it would not be necessary for the battalion to perform its musketry practices as a whole.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The noble Earl, in the earlier part of his Answer, spoke of the preliminary drill for recruits and then of the annual drill for recruits. He did not specifically mention the annual training of the trained men other than recruits.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: There may be some modification, but I think that practically and substantially the training will be the same.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: Can the noble Earl tell us whether there will be pay during the six days of

501
musketry practice, and what will happen if men do not turn up? Will they be treated as deserters?
[No answer was returned.]
LORD BLYTHSWOOD: Is it intended that the battalion recruits should be drilled at the depot? If so, I can assure the noble Earl that there will be a great deal of difficulty in getting the men. If, on the other hand, the Government allow the recruits to drill in camp, plenty of men will be forthcoming; but the experience in Scotland, at any rate, shows that they will not come to the depot. A few years ago, before drilling at the depot was adopted, one battalion I could name was 1,200 strong; it is now only 400; whilst the regiment that I commanded, and which has never drilled at the depot, remains at the same strength —i.e.,over 900 strong.
House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To morrow, halt-past Ten o'clock.