Lords Sitting of 15 August 1907

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR informed the House that he had received from the Judge of the Bankruptcy Court in Ireland a certificate that the Earl of Clancarty, who sits in this House as Viscount Clancarty, was adjudicated a bankrupt on the 24th June, 1907.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
London County Council (General Powers) Bill. The consent of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Barry Railway Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments; and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Metropolitan Water Board (Various Powers) Bill. The King's consent signified; Bill read 3a; Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
Colne Valley Water Bill [H.L.]; Glasgow Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Kilmarnock Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill. Brought from the Commons. Read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Hamilton of Dalzell), and reported from the Committee. (No. 178.)

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  FISHERIES (IRELAND).
  Report of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland on the sea and inland fisheries of Ireland for 1906. Part I. General Report.

  COMMERCIAL, No. 9 (1907).
  Despatch by Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Henry Trotter reporting upon the operations
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  of the European Commission of the Danube during the years 1894–1906, together with a resumé of its previous history; (with plan), (with reference to "Commercial, No. 6 (1894)").
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Brought from the Commons. Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday next.—(The Lord Tweedmouth.) (No. 177.)
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: Can the noble Lord tell us when the Second Reading will be taken?
  LORD DENMAN: I am not in a position to answer that question. It is not a Government Bill, I understand.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: The Bill was starred by the Government in the other House.
  LORD DENMAN: I understand it is not to be looked after by the Government in this House. But I think we shall be able to let the noble Duke know beforehand on what day the Second Reading will be taken.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: Am I to understand that His Majesty's Government intend to give no facilities for the passing of this Bill? I am informed that it was starred in the other House and taken as a Government measure.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON): The Bill has only this moment come up to the House, and I do not yet know what course may be taken or who will have charge of the Bill. I can only say that the Government will give every facility for the passing of the Bill.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Will the noble Marquess be able to give us the information in the course of the evening?
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: Yes.

  EVICTED TENANTS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Amendments reported (according to order.
  Drafting Amendment in Clause 1 agreed to.
  THE EARL OF MAYO THE EARL OF MAYO moved an Amendment to limit the evicted tenants to be reinstated to those whom the Commissioners should approve "before 1st November, 1907." The reasons for this he had stated in Committee. He was aware that the number of tenants to be dealt with had been limited to 2,000, but he thought it would considerably help the Commissioners in settling this matter if the Amendment were adopted. He was quite ready to put the date further back, and if the noble Earl the Lord President would accept 31st December, 1907, he would substitute that date for the date in the Amendment. They desired to see some finality in the matter, and the longer the operations under this Bill were extended the greater would be the drag on the working of the Act of 1903, as a great many of the officials who ought to be dealing with that Act would be engaged in transactions connected with the restoration of the evicted tenants. He hoped the noble Earl in charge of the Bill would accept some such limit as that proposed.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, line 4, to leave out the word 'considered,' and to insert the words 'have prior to the first day of November one thousand nine hundred and seven determined.'"—(The Earl of Mayo.)
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE): I hope noble Lords opposite will not press this Amendment. The noble Lord at a later part of the Bill has put an Amendment on the Paper limiting the time during which the Act should be in operation. We are not prepared to accept that Amendment as he has moved it, but we are prepared to set a limit to the operation of the Bill. Noble Lords have already inserted in the Bill a limit of numbers, and I should have thought that this would show that the duration of the Bill could only be for a limited time. The House may remember that when this matter was raised before, I pointed out that in the opinion of the Estates Commissioners, they could not be absolutely
  1516
  certain, if this particular kind of limitation to individuals was inserted in the Bill, that there might not be a few hard cases with which they might not be able to deal in a given time. That is a state of things which they naturally do not contemplete with pleasure. I really think the limitation already inserted by the Committee, and the further limitation to which we are prepared to agree as regards the operation of the Bill, are a sufficient guarantee that the matter will be dealt with without delay. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will not press the Amendment. I fully recognise the desire he has shown to meet us by putting the date somewhat further back, but, in spite of this, for which I thank him, I trust he will not press the Amendment.
  LORD BARRYMOREexpressed his regret that the noble Earl was unable to accept the Amendment. This Bill had been brought in to settle, and to settle quickly, what was supposed to be a burning question. Surely it was in the interest of the Government, of the Commissioners, and of everybody concerned to get the matter settled as quickly as possible. The Chief Secretary in another place said on the Third Reading that the Government bad ascertained the dimensions of the problem and knew the acreage that would be required, and the only question was whether they ought to apply compulsion. He hoped the noble Earl would reconsider the matter.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I only wish to say that I take note of the Lord President's suggestion that we should rely upon the limit of numbers which has already been inserted in Clause 2. I interpret the noble Earl's words as an indication that we may look to the support of His Majesty's Government for the retention of that particular limit.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: Perhaps I ought to explain. I expressed a preference, as the noble Marquess will remember, for a limit of area. The Committee, however, had an equally strong preference, on which they pronounced by vote, for a limit of numbers. I do not anticipate that there will be any difficulty in arriving at an agreement on that matter. I personally still think that a limit of numbers is a somewhat dangerous one, but it certainly

  1517
  is not a matter upon which His Majesty's Government would insist beyond a certain point.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREhad an Amendment on the Paper to amend Subsection (3) of Clause 1, by inserting after the words—
  "No tenanted land shall be acquired compulsorily unless it is in the occupation of a new tenant to whom this Act applies, and unless the Estates Commissioners, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, holding, and district"—
  the words—
  "other than any boycotting or intimidation directed against the owner or occupier of such land, and which has not been caused by reprehensible conduct on his part subsequent, in the case of the owner, to the last eviction of such land, or in the case of a new tenant, subsequent to the commencement of his tenancy."
  He explained that he did not propose to move this Amendment as the drafting was not considered quite satisfactory. His next Amendment, however, adopted the words used in Committee by the noble Earl the Lord President, and he hoped the Government would see their way to accept it. The object of the Amendment was to substitute for the words "the cost involved" the words "the cost of acquiring the land, including the cost of compensating the tenant thereof (if any)."
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, line 16, to leave out the word 'involved' and to insert the words 'of acquiring the land, including the cost of compensating the tenant thereof (if any).'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
  LORD DENMANsaid the Government had given no pledge as to the words. They merely explained the effect of the word "involved." The Government were unable to accept the words which the noble Earl desired to insert, chiefly because of an insuperable objection to the drafting. It was inaccurate to describe the cost of "acquiring" the land as including the cost of compensating the tenant.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid he withdrew his Amendment on the former occasion on the understanding that the Government appreciated their
  1518
  objection to the word "involved." The word "involved" could cover the cost of police protection.
  LORD DENMAN: No.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid he was advised by the best legal minds in Ireland that it could.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: The question is purely one of interpretation. We are advised that the words "the cost involved" can only include three things—the cost of purchasing the land, of compensating the new tenant who goes out, and of equipping the holding for the tenant who succeeds. Therefore we consider the word "involved" sufficient.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  LORD EVERSLEY*LORD EVERSLEY moved to modify the proviso inserted in Clause 1 in Committee, on the motion of Lord Robertson, that planters who had purchased under the Act of 1903 or were bona fide tenants cultivating their lands as ordinary farmers should not be compulsorily disturbed, by inserting the limiting words, "except under special circumstances and with the consent of the Lord-Lieutenant." The object of his Amendment was, he said, to insert the compromise which the noble Earl the Lord President proposed in Committee on the Amendment moved by Lord Robertson. The noble Earl admitted that as a general rule a man who had been in occupation as a bona fide tenant, cultivating the farm in a proper way, should not be subject to compulsory removal; but at the same time he stated that there were exceptional cases where, in the interests of the peace of the district, it might be necessary to remove the planters with a view to reinstating the evicted tenants. Lord Robertson and other speakers on that side of the House had somewhat exaggerated the character and the motives of the planters. He had said that the planters were induced by public spirit to take up holdings on the Plan of Campaign estates, that they had answered the appeal made by the Government, and that they were a meritorious and well-to do class.
  LORD ROBERTSONsaid the latter part of the sentence was accurate, but the rest was imagination.
  LORD EVERSLEYsaid he did not think he had unfairly stated the general effect of what was said by speakers in the debate on Lord Robertson's Amendment. He did not mean to attribute this entirely to the noble Lord. But there was another view of these men. It was said that these were men of no substance, who were tempted to take farms on the Campaign estates not for public motives, but for purposes of gain. Very large offers were made to them to induce them to do so. Their rents were to be much less than those of the tenants who had been evicted. They were given, as a gift, the tenant-right in their holding, which was often equal to the value of the landlord's interest, and they received considerable sums from the Derelict Farms Association for the purpose of stocking their holdings. Many of these planters were not genuine farmers at all; they were nondescripts of various kinds. He spoke from experience, because he visited, many years ago, two of the Campaign estates in the possession of planters and inquired into their condition. He interviewed many of the planters, one of whom was in occupation of no fewer than 20 farms.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: What estates is the noble Lord referring to?
  LORD EVERSLEY: The Clongorey estate was one.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: You mean the Coolgreany estate.
  LORD EVERSLEY: The other was the Massereene estate.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: But they are both settled and quitted, and the tenants restored.
  LORD EVERSLEY,continuing, said that one planter whom he intervened occupied no fewer than twenty of the evicted farms, the extent of which was 900 acres and the rent £370 a year, which was 30 per cent.
  LORD ASHBOURNEwas sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but this was no part of the Bill. These two estates had been settled and the evicted tenants restored a long time ago.
  LORD EVERSLEYsaid he was merely taking this as an illustration of what the planters generally were. His impression, on visiting the estates, was that the planters as a rule were not substantial people. It was true that arrangements had been come to between the owners and the Estates Commissioners, and that the tenants on the greater number of these estates had been reinstated; but there remained two Plan of Campaign estates in respect of which no arrangement had been made—the Lewis and the Clanricarde estates. He understood that there were thirty-five tenants evicted from the Lewis estate, the owner of which had since leased the whole of the estate to her two sons, who were now in possession and carrying on the farms in a bona fide way. If the Bill had passed in its original form the only difficulty, in effecting an arrangement between the Estates Commissioners and the owner, which had been that of price would be removed. The owner and her sons were quite ready to sell and to make way for the evicted tenants, but the price they asked was excessive, and the Estate Commissioners had not thought it right to agree to it. If the Bill had passed in its original form the evicted tenants could have been reinstated on the payment of a reasonable price under compulsory purchase instead of the excessive price asked. But under the clause as it had been amended it would not be possible to deal otherwise than by agreement with the two tenants. They would have a veto on the transaction just as they now had, and therefore the Bill would have no effect in that case. He thought their Lordships would be of opinion that if these thirty-five tenants were to be reinstated, it was better that they should be reinstated upon the estate in which their former holdings were comprised rather than upon other land purchased compulsorily from some other landlord. The Clanricarde estate was of a similar type with this difference, that the owner in that case had never been willing to sell to the Estates Commissioners. He did not wish to enter into any of the circumstances affecting that estate. He did not think it would be desirable to do so, but he thought most people would agree that it would have been better for the peace of the district and for the whole of Ireland if that estate had been expropriated twenty-five years ago;

  1521
  and no doubt if this Bill should pass in its original form it would be expropriated. On the Clanricarde estate there were 125 evicted tenants, whose places were taken by thirty-five planters, making one planter to every four farms. But there were many planters on the estate who had in their occupation eight or ten farms from which the tenants had been evicted, and the same difficulty might occur there as in the case of the Lewis estate—namely, that the tenants who were in possession might refuse their consent to sell, and under the clause as it now stood it would not be possible to apply compulsion to them, because he believed that in all cases it was admitted that the planters were now occupying the farms and cultivating them in the manner contemplated in Lord Robertson's Amendment. He thought their Lordships would also agree that in that case it was desirable that the tenants should be reinstated on the estate where they had their former holdings. There were something like 1,800 other cases of evicted tenants not connected with Campaign estates which would come within the purview of the Bill, and it was in respect of those cases that his noble friend had said there might, and probably would, be some exceptional cases in which it might be desirable to apply compulsion.
  By way of illustration he would quote a case which came under his own observation. A tenant was evicted from a farm—not on a Campaign estate—under circumstances which the people of the district considered to be harsh and unjustifiable. A meeting of the local branch of the Land League was held, and a neighbouring farmer, who, he believed, had a holding next to the one in question, moved that the farm should be boycotted and that any tenant taking the farm should be subject to the boycott. Not long after it was rumoured that this very man had gone behind the backs of his fellow farmers and taken a lease of the farm. He was summoned before the Land League and questioned, but he strongly denied the report. Later it was found that it was actually the case that he had taken a lease from the owner at a low rent in consideration of the farm being boycotted. Thereupon he was ejected from the League and himself subjected to the boycott as a
  1522
  planter, a sneak, and a liar. This man, finding that he was boycotted, came to terms with the police, and went about accompanied by the police to various shopkeepers in the adjoining town, and when refused supplies he prosecuted these men and got them sentenced to imprisonment for conspiracy to boycott. He need hardly say that a case of this kind caused considerable odium in the district. That man was for many years boycotted and was the cause of much disturbance. That was the kind of case which might have occurred in other parts of Ireland. There were cases where men had been boycotted in respect of evicted farms for no less than twenty years, and it was desirable, in the interests of the district, that there should be a compulsory withdrawal of these men and that the tenants should be reinstated. The object of the Amendment was to enable the Estates Commissioners, with the consent of the Lord-Lieutenant, to apply compulsion in these very exceptional cases, but it would leave intact the provision that, as a general principle, if the planter were cultivating his land in a proper and reasonable way he should be left in possession. Their Lordships had gone a long way in admitting the principle of compulsion. They had admitted it in the case of the landlord, and it did not seem to him a very great step to extend it in some of these exceptional cases to tenancies.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, line 23, to insert, after the word 'manner,' the words 'except under special circumstances and with the consent of the Lord-Lieutenant.'"—(Lord Eversley.)
  LORD CLONBROCK,referring to the Lewis estate, said that when the Mathew Commission was sitting, it was stated in the evidence that there were forty-six evicted tenants. Twelve were reinstated voluntarily before the Report of that Commission was issued, and twelve more had been reinstated since then, leaving twenty-two. Yet now it was announced that there were thirty-five of them to be restored. That showed the extraordinary way in which evicted tenants grew in number as time went on. So far from the sum asked for being exorbitant, the offer of the Estates Commissioners to Mrs. Lewis

  1523
  for the two farms held by her sons, which they refused to increase, amounted only to eighteen and-a-half years purchase on the rent, entirely leaving out the occupation interest; and eighteen and-a-half years purchase was three years less than the average years purchase of first term rents in the county of Galway. It could not be said that declining to accept such an offer was holding out for exorbitant terms. He could not speak of the Clanricarde property from personal knowledge, but he understood that the planters had worked their farms well and laid out money on them
  LORD ROBERTSONhoped their Lordships would not be diverted by any of Lord Eversley's anecdotes from the terms of the Amendment, which would really do away with the whole effect of what they had already decided. The second of its remarkable qualifications was the more interesting from the events of the last few days. The consent of the Lord-Lieutenant was required—he presumed when the Lord-Lieutenant was not occupied with his Parliamentary duties. He could not suppose that even the most credulous would regard that as a very efficient protection. He would like to pay a tribute to his old Parliamentary colleague in the House of Commons, Lord Eversley; the generous sentiments that prevailed in that other place enabled him to say that there was no more diligent and successful discoverer of mares' nests.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I earnestly hope that the House will not accept this Amendment. The noble Lord who moved it seemed to me to be under a slight misapprehension with regard to the manner in which compulsion can be applied under this Bill. He said, "You apply compulsion to the landowner, and why not also apply it to the tenant?" The Bill as it now stands does admit of compulsion being applied to the tenant. What we on this side say is that to the tenants coming within the particular category of bona fide tenants cultivating their farms in a proper manner compulsion should not be applied. That protection Lord Eversley desires to modify, but if the noble Lord is correct in his view of the character and antecedents of the planters to whom he
  1524
  has alluded, very few of them are likely to receive the protection which the Bill promises. The noble Lord has described them as men of no resource, nondescripts, people who had taken up cheap land for sordid reasons, and he applied that description to the planter generally, basing his statement upon personal experience derived from one of those voyages of discovery which the special commissioner and the amateur detective are so fond of making in Ireland, sometimes to discover those interesting objects which Lord Robertson has referred to. That description of the planter as a class is, I venture to say, a most unjust one. I do not say these men took their farms from motives of pure patriotism, but as a class they are industrious men desiring to pursue an honourable vocation. They took land which other tenants had thrown up, at a rent which other tenants had refused to pay, they cultivated the land, many of them with great success, and I am happy to say that many of them are established safely and beyond the reach of this Bill, having acquired their farms under the Act of 1903. But there are some who are not yet in that position, and to these we desire that this moderate measure of protection should be given.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, I need hardly say that I shall support the Amendment of my noble friend, because it is couched in precisely the terms which I suggested in Committee. My noble friend gave certain instances, which seemed to me of an extremely conclusive character, of what would probably be the result if this Amendment is not carried. Noble Lords opposite, I think, were quite right from their point of view in making no allusion to the particular instances named by my noble friend, because they would have found it exceedingly difficult, if they had attempted to examine them, to sustain the line of argument which they have adopted. What did my noble friend say? He alluded in the first instance to certain estates where, owing to the good sense of all the parties, matters have been amicably settled. But it is perfectly evident that as the Bill stands, without the words which my noble friend proposes to insert, no means would exist of settling the dispute by means of this Bill. It is to meet cases where all the parties do not show good sense in settling disputes that the Amendment is

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  devised. It appears to me to be quite conclusive that there are a considerable number of cases which ought to be dealt with under this Bill, but which cannot be touched if the Bill remains as it is. I may say perhaps, in passing, that the phrase suggested, I think, by Lord Lansdowne does not seem to be the most fortunate that could have been used. If he had stated "according to the ordinary rules of good husbandry," or something of that kind, the term would have been more preferable than the rather remarkable adjective, new to me, which is found in the Bill. But that is a mere drafting criticism. What we do say is that it will be impossible for the Estates Commissioners to deal with the most difficult cases if the Bill stands as it is. My noble friend mentioned cases in which a whole number of evicted farms had been handed over to one imported planter. He might, and very probably would, come under the description "bona-fide tonant"; but if this question is to be settled, and we all agree it is to be settled, something must be done to meet the cases of those particular evicted tenants, and it will not be done unless the provision in the Bill is thus amended.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONasked, in reference to the remarks made by Lord Eversley,
  whether it would not be a negation of everything the Government proposed to do in other cases, if the evicted tenants on the Clanricarde estate were returned to their former holdings. He only knew of the case from public sources, but he understood that there were 160 evicted tenants, and the land they occupied was now held by forty-five tenants, the uneconomic holdings having been enlarged into economic holdings, and all the old landmarks having been obliterated. Was it conceivable that, because the Clanricarde estate had been before the public mind, it would be wise to remove those forty-five men who had been farming successfully, and put others in their place? When there was a Congested Districts Board working in one direction amalgamating holdings, were these men to be put out of their economic holdings because those who had been evicted wished to be put back in their old holdings? In citing this as an instance where it was necessary to go out of the ordinary course, the case for the protection of the planter had been made even stronger than it was before the noble Earl spoke.
  On Question, "That those words be there inserted," their Lordships divided:—Contents, 28; Not-Contents, 126.

  CONTENTS.

  Loreburn, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Airedale, L.

  Headley, L.

  Allendale, L.

  Hemphill, L.

  Crewe, E. (L. President.)

  Castletown, L.

  Herschell, L.

  Colebrooke, L. [Teller.]

  Lucas, L.

  Ripon, M. (L. Privy Seal.)

  Courtney of Penwith, L.

  Lyveden, L.

  Denman, L. [Teller.]

  Nunburnholme, L.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kincardine.)

  Saye and Sele, L.

  Carrington, E.

  Swaythling, L.

  Kimberley, E.

  Eversley, L.

  Tweedmouth, L.

  Fitzmaurice, L.

  Weardale, L.

  Althorp, V. (L. Chamberlain.)

  Haversham, L.

  Welby, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Norfolk, D. (E. Marshal.)

  Cawdor, E.

  Malmesbury, E.

  Argyll, D.

  Clarendon, E.

  Mansfield, E.

  Bedford, D.

  Cowley, E.

  Manvers, E.

  Richmond and Gordon, D.

  Dartmouth, E.

  Mar and Kellie, E.

  Wellington, D.

  Dartrey, E.

  Mayo, E.

  Derby, E.

  Morley, E.

  Ailesbury, M.

  Devon, E.

  Morton, E.

  Camden, M.

  Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

  Mount Edgcumbe, E.

  Lansdowne, M.

  Nelson, E.

  Salisbury, M.

  Essex, E.

  Plymouth, E.

  Feversham, E.

  Rothes, E.

  Bradford, E.

  Haddington, E.

  Saint Germans, E.

  Camperdown, E.

  Hardwicke, E.

  Verulam, E.

  Carnwath, E.

  Ilchester, E.

  Waldegrave, E. [Teller.]

  Cathcart, E.

  Lauderdale, E.

  Westmeath, E.

  Wicklow, E.

  Chaworth, L. (E. Meath.)

  Lovat, L.

  Cheylesmore, L.

  Massey, L.

  Churchill, V. [Teller.]

  Clements, L. (E. Leitrim.)

  Moncrieff, L.

  Cross, V.

  Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

  Monteagle of Brandon, L.

  Falmouth, V.

  Clinton, L.

  Muskerry, L.

  Hampden, V.

  Clonbrock, L.

  Newton, L.

  Hill, V.

  Cloncurry, L.

  Oriel, L. (V. Masscreene.)

  Hood, V.

  Colchester, L.

  Oxenfoord, L. (E. Stair.)

  Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.)

  Collins, L.

  Poltimore, L.

  Dawnay, L. (V. Downe.)

  Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)

  Templetown, V

  Digby, L.

  Douglas, L. (E. Home.)

  Ramsay, L. (E. Dalhousie.)

  Abinger, L.

  Dunalley, L.

  Rathdonnell, L.

  Addington, L.

  Dunboyne, L.

  Rathmore, L.

  Amherst of Hackney, L.

  Dunleath, L.

  Ritchie of Dundee, L.

  Ampthill, L.

  Ellenborough, L.

  Robertson, L.

  Ardilaun, L.

  Estcourt, L.

  Sanderson, L.

  Ashbourne, L.

  Faber, L.

  Seaton, L.

  Atkinson, L.

  Fairlie, L. (E. Glasgow.)

  Sherborne, L.

  Avebury, L.

  Fermanagh, L. (E. Erne.)

  Silchester, L. (E. Longford.)

  Balfour, L.

  Forester, L.

  Stewart of Garlies, L. (E. Galloway.)

  Balinhard, L. (E. Southesk.)

  Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

  Barrymore, L.

  Herries, L.

  Stuart of Castle Stuart, L. (E. Moray.)

  Belhaven and Stenton, L.

  Inchiquin, L.

  Borthwick, L.

  Kensington, L.

  Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)

  Bowes, L. (E. Strathmore and Kinghorn.)

  Kenyon, L.

  Talbot de Malahide, L.

  Kilmaine, L.

  Ventry, L.

  Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.)

  Kilmarnock, L. (E. Erroll.)

  Waleran, L.

  Calthorpe, L.

  Lamington, L.

  Wemyss, L. (E. Wemyss.)

  Carew, L.

  Langford, L.

  Carysfort, L. (E. Carysfort.)

  Lawrence, L.

  On Question, Amendments agreed to.

  LORD ATKINSON LORD ATKINSON moved his alternative Amendment to Clause 2, sketched at a former sitting. The three objections that had been made to his previous Amendment were (1) that a Judge of Assize or a Judge of the King's Bench Division was not a good tribunal to decide upon such a question as the necessity of using compulsory powers; (2) that the decision of that question came at the end of the business instead of at the beginning, and that if the Judge ultimately decided that there was no case for the exercise of compulsory powers, the costs incurred, and the various proceedings taken would have been rendered useless; and (3) that such an appeal would interpose delay. He had endeavoured by this Amendment to meet those three objections. The Lord-Lieutenant in Council came in at the beginning of the procedure, and it would be necessary for the Estates Commissioners, before they put in force their compulsory powers, to get the consent of the Lord-Lieutenant. The Estates Commissioners would then be in the same position as every municipality in the three Kingdoms. He had made the Housing of the Working Classes Act of 1890 his model. The Amendment, if accepted, would bring the Bill into harmony with other legislation
  1528
  affecting cases where compulsory powers were given.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, line 25, after the word 'Act to insert the following new subsections:—(1) The Estates Commissioners shall frame a scheme or schemes, setting forth the lands proposed to be taken, and the purposes for which the same are required. (2) More estates or tracts of land than one may be included in any such scheme or schemes in any case where the estates or tracts of land are subject to the same or similar considerations, or where it is apprehended that the proposals of the Estates Commissioners are or may be open to the same or similar objections, provided that the questions likely to be involved are such as may be conveniently dealt with on one application. (3) Advertisements shall be published, and notices given in the manner and upon the persons mentioned in the seventh section of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890. (4) Upon compliance with the foregoing provisions with respect to the publication of advertisements and the service of notices, the Estates Commissioners shall present to the Lord-Lieutenant in Council, a petition praying that an order may be made confirming the said scheme or schemes. (5) On the hearing of the said petition any person whose lands are proposed to be taken compulsorily may appear at the hearing of such petition, and give evidence upon the question whether lands reasonably adequate for carrying out the said scheme or schemes in whole or in part may not be obtained by agreement on reasonable terms, and whether it is reasonable and proper that the lands

  1529
  mentioned in the scheme or schemes, or any of of them, should be compulsorily acquired for the purposes of the same. (6) The Lord-Lieutenant may make an order declaring the limits of the area to be comprised in the said scheme or schemes, and authorising the same to be carried into execution. (7) Such order may be made either absolute, or with such conditions and modifications as he may think fit, so that no addition be made to the lands proposed to be taken compulsorily. (8) The order so made shall be valid without being confirmed by Parliament, and shall, without prejudice in other respects to the provisions contained in the eighth subsection of this section, be deemed and taken to have finally and conclusively determined that the Estates Commissioners are unable to obtain by agreement, on reasonable terms, land for the purpose of the scheme or schemes as confirmed, and that lands may be acquired compulsorily for the purposes of the same. (9) The Lord-Lieutenant may make such order as he thinks fit in favour of any person whose lands were proposed to be taken compulsorily for the allowance of the reasonable costs, charges, and expenses properly incurred by him in opposing such scheme. (10) Rules may be framed by the Lord-Lieutenant in Council for the purpose of carrying into effect the provisions of this section, in order to carry the said scheme or schemes into effect.'"—(Lord Atkinson.)
  THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, the noble Lord's proposition is one of very great importance, and he has explained how he has come to make it. In addition to the intrinsic importance of the proposals contained in the Amendment, I am informed that if the House adopts it, it will have the distinction of having created the longest section to be found in any Act of Parliament. The House will remember that the noble and learned Lord threw out the possibility of proceeding by way of scheme where it was proposed that the Estates Commissioners should acquire land by compulsion. I quite admit the attraction of that idea, and it has received the most careful consideration of the Government with every wish to meet, if possible, the desires of the noble and learned Lord But this method of proceeding by scheme cannot be considered alone. It has to be considered in connection with the subsequent proceedings provided by the Amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord in Committee; and the effect of the two Amendments must be regarded jointly.
  Now, what would actually occur if the two Amendments of the noble and learned Lord were added to the Bill? The proposal is that a scheme should be
  1530
  framed by the Estates Commissioners, with a number of advertisements and notices, and on the publication of the scheme it would be open to any person involved to petition the Lord-Lieutenant in Council, and the whole scheme would be argued on the hearing of the petition at considerable length and in the manner in which a proposition under the Lands Clauses Act is heard before a Parliamentary Committee. All the pros and cons would be gone into, including, apparently, the question whether it was possible for the Estates Commissioners to obtain suitable land in any other place. That would be a long transaction, in some cases it might be a very long transaction, and it might, of course, happen that at the conclusion of the proceedings it was decided that a certain piece of land might be taken compulsorily. Then would follow further negotiations as to the price to be paid for it. That becomes a subject of a second appeal to a Judge, with a possibility of having to hear a great many of the same witnesses over again at a different place, and involving a second long transaction.
  I ask, is that a really possible plan of proceeding? I quite admit that if it had been found possible to include the whole transaction in a scheme, including the decision as to what the proper value of the land ought to be, there might much to be said for it. But that is obviously impossible, because it is quite clear that the Lord-Lieutenant in Council is not the authority by whom a question of value of that kind ought to be decided. I repeat that there is a distinct attraction in making all these questions a matter of preliminary dealing rather than of subsequent dealing, but if there are to be two entirely separate appeals, as the noble and learned Lord proposes, I fear that the whole operation of the Act would be so terribly interfered with and hampered that it would become a serious question whether the Act was worth having at all. So that it really comes to this, that if you are of opinion that these extremely elaborate safeguards are needed for all the compulsory transactions under this Bill you cannot have the Bill at all. It is not worth it. As I have pointed out, a very considerable number of transactions no doubt can take place in the course of years by agreement, and if you are not convinced that the matter

  1531
  is urgent and will not take our word for that, it is useless to attempt to deal with these transactions by the long and complicated procedure which the noble and learned Lord has proposed.
  Is it absolutely the case that there are no means of arriving at a fair safeguard for those who are thus expropriated in some other and less cumbersome way? I said on a former stage of the Bill something as to the Government's view of what would be reasonable in the way of appeal. I have not put anything down on the Paper, because the adoption by the House of the noble and learned Lord's first series of Amendments seemed to me to make that undesirable. The character of the Bill has been so much altered by the Amendments made at the instance of the noble and learned Lord, that it seems to me really better that these further Amendments should be inserted so that his whole scheme may be submitted to Parliament altogether. Consequently I have not put any Amendment on the Paper, but, as I think it would not be fair to allow the Bill to leave the House without telling your Lordships something more about the sort of appeal that we do propose, I will very briefly state what kind of appeal in our opinion would be a reasonable one and act as a full protection to those whose land may be taken.
  We agreed, by the original Bill, to an appeal on questions of law, and, in the course of debate, we agreed to give an appeal on questions of value, but there are certain other matters which are not probably questions of value upon which we think noble Lords opposite might very properly be met. Those are the questions coming under Clause 7. We are prepared to give a full appeal in any question arising under that clause. With regard to the earlier part of Clause 7, the question whether any land acquired compulsorily under the Act is or forms part of any demesne, home farm, town park, garden, pleasure-ground, or ground suitable for building sites, and so on, is a question of law. On the other hand, the questions in the latter part of the clause, whether the untenanted land forms part of any home farm or land immediately adjoining and customarily occupied with the owner's residence, and whether the land has been selected with due regard to the general situation and convenience of the
  1532
  owner's property, so as to diminish the value thereof as little as possible—those questions could not properly be taken as questions of law; and therefore unless we provide specially for them there would be no appeal.
  We desire to give a full appeal on all these matters, and if your Lordships will consider the matter you will see that the scope of the words in the clause is really very wide, and may include, for instance, some questions of sporting rights, which was mentioned by Lord Inchiquin. Apart from the Amendments which your Lordships have inserted, I should have been prepared to maintain that such a matter as that would be subject to appeal on the point that the value of the property might be diminished as little as possible. So also with the series of questions raised by Lord Clonbrock. We believe that the very wide terms of the latter part of Clause 7 would cover practically any kind of unreasonable dealing with land, supposing the Estates Commissioners to contemplate any such thing. It would also, even if you acquit the Estates Commissioners of any desire to act unreasonably, as I am sure your Lordships wish to do, prevent the possibility of their making a mistake by acting in a hurry. We believe that if your Lordships will carefully look at the latter part of Section 7 you will see that a complete appeal on that series of questions will really do all that is demanded by the equities of the case. I quite recognise the great care which the noble and learned Lord has given to the consideration of this question. We are certainly grateful to him for the attempt he has made to solve the problem; but, holding as we do that the procedure would be impossibly long and complicated if we accepted his proposition, we ask your Lordships very carefully to consider whether you will not ultimately be able to agree to the appeal of which I have sketched the outline—namely, an appeal which, we hope, will safeguard the landlord against any possible danger.
  LORD MUSKERRY: To whom is the appeal to be?
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I am not in a position to give any details at the moment, but I can assure the noble Lord that it will be a full and satisfactory appeal.
  LORD MUSKERRY: Not an appeal to the Commissioners themselves, I hope.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid the statement of the Lord President was interesting and satisfactory in so far as it admitted to appeal matters arising on Clause 7. This question of appeal was one of two main points challenged, the other having reference to new tenants. The appeal was necessary to provide against errors of judgment and not necessarily mala fides on the part of the Commissioners. Sporting rights should include fisheries. He did not think the Amendment of his noble friend Lord Inchiquin received adequate recognition from the noble Earl the Lord President at the time it was presented. Under the law the term "sporting rights" included fisheries, and it was possible that the Estates Commissioners might take compulsorily land which abutted on a river. The right of the owner in such a case should be fully safeguarded, and he was glad that the noble Earl indicated that on these points there would be an appeal. The nature of the Appellate Tribunal was left open. It must, however, be understood by the Government that on the Opposition side it was expected to be a judicial appeal, an appeal to a Court composed of independent legal minds. But it was not enough to meet the wants and wishes of the landowners. The new tenants must also be safeguarded. The House of Lords would be deserving of the harshest measure of vituperation that was ever uttered against them if they were satisfied with Amendments in their own favour and left the new tenants, poor men who could not protect themselves, out in the cold. It was a monstrous thing that power should be given in an Evicted Tenants Bill to evict other tenants who might have been in possession of their farms, rearing families and paying their way, for twenty-five years. Were they to be expropriated under the Bill without check, warning, or appeal? The Government were determined that, whatever they did for the owners, they would do as little as they could for the new tenants, because the meaning of Lord Eversley's Amendment was to kill Lord Robertson's Amendment. If that was not its intention it certainly was its direct effect. The words "special circumstances" might mean anything, and the words "in the opinion of the
  1534
  Lord-Lieutenant" gave no security, for the Lord-Lieutenant, on being appealed to, would probably direct his private secretary to communicate with the Estates Commissioners, and ask what on earth he was to say on the subject. Was it intended to do anything to safeguard the position of these men? He thought it right to say that his own view was that they were covered by Lord Atkinson's Amendment, and as aggrieved Parties they would have the right of appeal. But was it intended by the Government that the new tenants should have no appeal, that they should be left to the mercy of the Estates Commissioners?
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I should like to understand what the noble and learned Lord is driving at. Does he mean to ask me the question whether, if Lord Robertson's Amendment disappears from the Bill, as an alternative an appeal would be given in this matter? As the Bill now stands, with Lord Robertson's Amendment in, I suppose the planters are regarded as being perfectly safeguarded. At least no other Amendment has been moved from the opposite side of the House to safeguard them.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid the noble Earl in his speech on Lord Eversley's Amendment made no reference to the new tenants. That silence made it necessary to inquire what were the intentions of the Government in reference to these unfortunate new tenants.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: The new tenants are practically taken out of the Bill by Lord Robertson's Amendment.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid that that Amendment applied only to new tenants who were recognised to be bona fide tenants, but there was another class, said to be of the category of caretakers, who had no protection. Moreover, the provision in Lord Robertson's Amendment required to be safeguarded by an appeal. Supposing the Estates Commissioners made a mistake and declared that a farmer who came within that category was not a bona fide farmer, who was to decide that? Should not that man, who would otherwise be expropriated, be given a right of appeal? By what method of reasoning could it be suggested that in justice he should not have an appeal. Section 23

  1535
  of the Act of 1903 only enabled the Judicial Commissioner to consider such questions of law as were stated in their own words by the Estates Commissioners. It was no appeal; the Judicial Commissioner could not examine witnesses, and could not go into questions of mixed law and fact. It was, therefore, useless to point to Section 23 as adequate for the purpose. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack had stated on a previous occasion that a writ of prohibition might be obtained by the tenant on a violation of the provisions in Clause 7. In his opinion he could not. The question in such cases always was, Did the inferior Court act in excess of jurisdiction or without jurisdiction? It might honestly be mistakenly held that land which formed part of a demesne did not so form part. That would not be a question for a writ of prohibition. If the Estates Commissioners said that though the land formed part of a demesne, home farm, town park, etc., they would expropriate it, then it would be a question of law and a writ of prohibition would come in. But that question would not arise. They were told that at some point there was to be an adequate appeal tribunal, composed in such a way that the noble Earl the Lord President thought all objection entertained by noble Lords on that side of the House would be removed. He awaited a further explanation from the Government on the point, and he hoped they would also have a clear statement as to the position of the new tenants.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord LOREBURN): I had not intended to take any part in this discussion, but I will endeavour shortly to answer the noble and learned Lord. There is nothing I detest more than getting into conflict on points of law with any noble Lord who has legal experience. My opinion is that in the event of the land of any new tenant being taken contrary to the provision inserted by Lord Robertson, as the Bill stands, the Court would be able to interpose an estoppel.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: What Court?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Bill says that no land which is described in the clause shall be acquired compulsorily. Accordingly it is outside the power of the Estates Commissioners to acquire
  1536
  that land, because the statute says that that land shall not be acquired. There is no direct appeal allowed, but if the Estates Commissioners do anything that is ultra vires, they can, I believe, be estopped by a Court of law. That, I think, is the answer to what the noble and learned Lord has said.
  LORD ATKINSONsaid he would follow a good example, and not express any opinion on the Government's proposal before he had seen it. In the meantime, he begged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think the course which my noble and learned friend has suggested is that which clearly is most convenient for the House. We are put rather in a difficulty, because we had most of us hoped that the noble Earl who has charge of the Bill would himself have laid before us, in outline at any rate, the manner in which he proposed to deal with this question of appeal. The noble Earl complained rather that my noble and learned friend's scheme was somewhat too abundant and copious in its form; our complaint of noble Lords opposite is the converse of that; we have no written suggestion from them, and the general explanation which has been offered to the House by the noble Earl, although up to a certain point reassuring, stopped short of that which we had ventured to hope for. Nevertheless, I hope that I am not wrong in thinking that His Majesty's Government are really prepared to give us that for which we ask, and to which we attach so much importance.
  I understand that we are to have a full appeal on the question of value, to begin with. Then I understand the noble Earl to admit that there are other questions outside the question of value as to which a similar full appeal is to be granted, and he named, as a case in point, questions arising under Clause 7. As to that, he told us that we might look for a full appeal on any question arising under Clause 7. I regard that as a very satisfactory statement on the part of His Majesty's Government. But I very much desire to emphasise what has been said by my noble and learned friend Lord Ashbourne as to the omission

  1537
  from the noble Earl's statement of all reference to the case of the planters. I am quite ready to take it from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that they are already adequately protected under the Bill but I hope there can be no room for misapprehension as to what is or is not adequate protection; and I have no doubt that when we have the whole of the proposal of His Majesty's Government before us, they will then be able to explain exactly the extent of the protection which will be afforded to the now tenants under their scheme.
  I wish to express one other hope. I trust the noble Earl will consider very carefully whether he cannot incorporate in his proposal provisions analogous to, if not identical with, those which are to be found in the first three sections of my noble and learned friend Lord Atkinson's Amendment. Those sections provide for a procedure under which the Estates Commissioners will be required to prepare schemes dealing with certain areas: schemes which are to be prepared after full local inquiry and which are to be published in such a manner that any persons who may consider themselves aggrieved in any way by them will have ample opportunities of objecting and making known their desire for modifications. I do not think that too much importance can be attached to a proposal of that kind. It seems to me most necessary that at an early stage all parties, and the public generally, should be satisfied that the arrangements for reinstatement and transfer are framed in a fair and equitable spirit, and in a manner not calculated to press too hardly on any particular district or individual. That, to my mind, is the great advantage of this procedure by means of public schemes.
  There is, of course, another point as to which we are still left completely in the dark: I mean the Court to which the appeal will lie. I confess that we were a little disappointed when the noble Earl told us that upon this most important matter he was not able to offer us any enlightenment this evening. While I make these moderate complaints, I fully admit, on the other hand, that the general effect of the statement of the noble Earl was to show that he and his colleagues desire to meet us in a reasonable spirit on a point to which we attach very great importance.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDON LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDON moved the insertion of a new subsection in Clause 2, which, he said, was in no sense hostile to the Bill, and the object of which was to ensure that there should be no mistake as to the immediate payment of the compensation when it has been finally fixed. He submitted that when it was a case of compulsory purchase the usual practice in regard to such purchase should be followed, and that on the completion of the transaction the money should be at once paid.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 6, lines 39 to 42, to leave out subsection (10), and to insert the following new sub-section: (10) If no petition has been presented within the prescribed period, or if such petition has been withdrawn, or if all questions under all petitions have been determined, a binding agreement for the purchase of the lands shall be deemed to have been concluded between the Estates Commissioners and the owner thereof, and the Land Commission shall forthwith pay the amount of the compensation into the Bank of Ireland; and the Estates Commissioners may make an order vesting the lands in the Land Commission.'"—(Lord Monteagle of Brandon.)
  THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, I quite appreciate the object of my noble friend's Amendment, but we cannot accept it in the form in which he has moved it. The Amendment provides that the—
  "Commission shall forthwith pay the amount of the compensation."
  In the first place, we do not agree to the word "compensation"; we regard it as the "price"—
  "And the Estates Commissioners may make an order vesting the lands in the Land Commission."
  It might happen that on appeal the price of the land would be so much enhanced that the Estates Commissioners would find it impossible to purchase. Yet if the noble Lord's Amendment is carried they would have to purchase the land in any case, even if a decision was given on appeal under Clause 7 that the land should not be purchased owing to its falling within the exemptions in that clause. If the price is raised on appeal to a figure which would make it impossible for the Commissioners to acquire the land without having to find from public funds so large a difference between the

  1539
  sum they pay and the sum at which they could resell as would make the transaction a thoroughly uneconomic one, they surely ought to be able to retire from the sale at that point, and one naturally assumes that the seller, being always the unwilling party, would have no objection to that course being taken. But there is another objection to the Amendment. It is hardly reasonable to provide that money should be paid at once out of public funds when the acquisition of the land would be unremunerative to the Commissioners. There is no intention whatever of hanging these matters up for an indefinite time, but we do not consider that the position is absolutely analogous to that, for instance, of a railway company taking land; that is an industrial enterprise, and the land is taken for the company's own objects. But if the noble Lord would agree to the words "shall be paid within a period of six months," we would be willing to accept an Amendment to that effect.
  LORD ATKINSONthought a period of six months would be reasonable. But that was not the real object which his noble friend had in view. Under the Lands Clauses Act, when a notice to treat was served it constituted an agreement between the promoter and the owner that he would take the land. What was left over was the fixing of the price, but there was the agreement that the promoter would take the land, and if he refused to do so, or if he delayed unreasonably in taking it, a suit could be instituted in the Court of Chancery to compel him to carry out the agreement. What his noble friend wished to guard against by his Amendment was that the Commissioners should have power to back out of their bargain after the compensation had been fixed. What chance would the owner have, in those circumstances, of working the land satisfactorily, in view of the disappointed tenants all round? As sure as that course was taken so sure would the landlord be subjected to all sorts of intimidation to force him to take a lower sum than that of the award. The Commissioners in this matter were playing the game of "heads I win, tails you lose." They could, after the notice had been served and the compensation fixed, retire from the whole transaction if the amount arrived at was higher than that
  1540
  of which they approved. He held that the Commissioners ought in these circumstances to be compelled to carry out the bargain.
  LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDONagreed to Lord Crewe's suggestion and substituted the words "within six months" for the word "forthwith." He would like to know if the noble Earl accepted the Amendment with that alteration.
  THE EARL of CREWE: The Amendment to which I agree is that the Land Commission shall, within a period not exceeding six months, pay the money into the Bank of Ireland, and the Estates Commissioners may make an order vesting the lands in the Land Commission.
  LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDONsaid that the Amendment as it appeared on the Paper, and as he had moved it, was in substitution for the two Amendments previously circulated, and to one of which the Lord President was evidently referring.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I do not accept the other Amendment. We quite agree that where the sale is actually effected by agreement between both parties the purchase money should be paid within six months, but we do not agree to making it a binding agreement on the Estates Commissioners to deal at any price which may be fixed by the Court of Appeal.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The House is at a disadvantage because the Amendment, as printed, is in a different form. I understand that two points are raised. The first one is whether there is to be prompt payment. Lord Monteagle proposes that payment should take place forthwith. My noble friend the Lord President does not agree to that, but will accept "within a period of six months." That deals fairly with the first point. The second point is, Are the Estates Commissioners to be placed in the position of being able to agree that certain lands are to be taken compulsorily, subject to arbitration, and then, when the price has been fixed, to back out and to say they will not take the land because the price is excessive? My noble and learned friend Lord

  1541
  Atkinson has shown that a retreat of that kind on the part of the Estates Commissioners at the very last moment would put the vendor in an intolerable position. I think there is a good deal of force in my noble and learned friend's suggestion.
  LORD DENMANpointed out that the subsection which Lord Monteagle desired to introduce completely contradicted Subsection 7 of Clause 2.
  LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDONsaid that if his Amendment were carried Subsection (6) would, of course, have to be amended.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment proposed to Lord Monteagle's Amendment is to omit the word "forthwith" in line 6, in order to insert the words "within six months." I think it would be convenient that I should put that Amendment first, as it is generally accepted, and after that has been carried I will put the Amendment standing on the Paper as so amended.
  On Question, That the word "forthwith" stand part, resolved in the negative.
  On Question, That the words "within six months" be here inserted, resolved in the affirmative.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment I now have to put is to leave out the present Subsection (10) and to insert the following new subsection—
  "If no petition has been presented within the prescribed period, or if every such petition has been withdrawn, or if all questions under all petitions have been determined, a binding agreement for the purchase of the lands shall be deemed to have been concluded between the Estates Commissioners and the owner thereof, and the Land Commission shall within six months pay the amount of the compensation into the Bank of Ireland, and the Estates Commissioners may make an order vesting the lands in the Land Commission."
  THE EARL OF ARRAN THE EARL OF ARRAN moved an Amendment similar to that moved by the Earl of Mayo in Committee providing that on the requirement of the owner by notice to the Estates Commissioners the reinstated tenant should have the
  1542
  status of a present tenant and not of a purchaser. The objection to the course proposed in the Bill was that it would make patchwork and cause great discontent. The noble Earl the Lord President had suggested that the fact of discontent on the part of the other tenants would lead to their purchasing. On first hearing that sounded very plausible, but on further consideration he did not think the result would be so advantageous, because the tenants would only consent to buy on precisely the same terms as the Estates Commissioners had sold to the evicted tenants, and in disturbed parts of the country the landlord might not get one penny in rent until he had agreed to sell on those terms. That would mean that the whole of the estate would be compulsorily sold at a price fixed by the Estates Commissioners. In that way a price would be fixed for the whole estate which might have been calculated on a derelict farm. He did not think the Estates Commissioners would object to this Amendment, as they had in some cases offered to reinstate evicted tenants as present tenants. The Amendment was not aimed at preventing evicted tenants being reinstated, but was designed to remove possible discontent.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 6, line 42, after the word 'order' to insert the words 'Provided always that in every case in which the owner of the said land shall, by notice in writing to the Estates Commissioners within the prescribed time, so require, the person or persons whom it is proposed to place in possession of said lands shall be placed there with the status of present tenants instead of purchasers, and shall from the date of being so placed in possession be subject to such rent as the Land Commission failing agreement between the owner and such person or persons, may upon the application of either party determine to be the fair rent of such land pursuant to the provisions of the Land Law (Ireland) Acts, 1881 to 1896.'"—(The Earl of Arran.)
  THE EARL OF CREWE: The noble Earl will excuse me if I do not reply at length, because what I had to say on this matter I said in reply to Lord Mayo when he moved a similar Amendment in Committee. The noble Earl dealt with one set of arguments that I used—namely, what I may call the commonsense argument that, in the first place, the Commissioners obviously would not desire to reinstate a tenant in the middle of a tenanted estate if it was likely to cause

  1543
  friction of the kind the noble Earl fears, and the further fact that a tenant being placed in this way in the middle of an estate might in some cases lead to purchase arrangements for the estate as a whole being arrived at. The noble Earl did not deal with the practical difficulty I mentioned, which was that persons returned in this way as present tenants cannot by law receive any assistance. The particular sort of evicted tenants whoso case this Bill is intended to meet are in the main people without any particular means, and I am sure the noble Earl will agree with me that you could not do a worse thing for a landlord or for an estate, than to put an evicted tenant back without some kind of equipment, because he would not be able to pay his rent and would soon become an evicted tenant again, and this would not contribute to the settlement of the question. I appreciate the hypothetical difficulty raised by the noble Earl, but I do not believe it will occur in practice. The last objection I have mentioned seems to me overwhelming against the acceptance of the Amendment.
  THE EARL OF MAYOsaid that noble Lords from Ireland felt very strongly on this matter. The object of the Amendment was to guard against the danger of making a price against themselves, and one at which the other tenants would demand to purchase. He knew there was the question of the bonus to be considered, but he maintained that the position of the landlord remained very unsatisfactory.
  LORD DENMANcommented on the statement of the noble Earl that landlords would have to standardise the price by that paid by the one evicted tenant who was put back on the estate, and said that where the planter had been placed on a farm it had not been necessary to standardise the rents at the figure derived from that particular planter.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I think the case which has been put by my noble friend behind me is really a very hard one, because there can be no doubt that in many cases it would be a great hardship and inconvenience that in the middle of an estate which was in a peaceful condition, with nothing but good feeling between landlord and
  1544
  tenant, one of these evicted tenants should be reinstated, and replaced, as my noble friend has pointed out, on conditions which give him a position considerably more advantageous than that enjoyed by all his neighbours, who perhaps, during the whole time have been paying their rent regularly. While I say that, I am bound to add that I can scarcely advise my noble friend to press his Amendment to a division. I regard the matter as of some importance, but not as of first-rate importance; and I think my noble friends behind me have shown great judgment in concentrating their attention upon points which really were of cardinal importance. This being of less importance, I would counsel my noble friend not to put the House to the trouble of dividing.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD DUNBOYNEdrew attention to what he considered an inconsistency between Clause 5, Sub-clause 3, and the provisions of the earlier part of the Bill. The sub-clause in question began—
  "all costs and expenses in the opinion of the Judicial Commissioners necessarily and properly incurred by any petitioner in respect to a petition under this Act or by any new tenant on a hearing before the Estates Commissioners,"
  while in the earlier part of the Bill, in the Appeal clauses, the costs were to be dealt with by the Judge of Appeal. In order to remedy this inconsistency, he suggested that the following words should be inserted—at what particular point he thought did not much matter—"except as hereinbefore provided, the Courts shall have discretion."
  THE EARL OF CREWE: Perhaps the noble Lord will kindly put it on the Paper for tomorrow. I have very little doubt that he is perfectly right; but I rather dislike accepting Amendments, even from him, offhand.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETON,in the absence of the Marquess of Londonderry, moved to leave out Clause 6. He said it was necessary to make that Motion for the technical reason that without a Motion in their Lordships' House it would not be practicable for His Majesty's Government to introduce in the other House a limitation of the clause which the Lord President had announced they desired to

  1545
  introduce for reducing the amount of the bonus to be applied for the purposes of the Bill to £100,000. Therefore, as a technical matter—and he believed in doing this he had the consent of His Majesty's Government—he begged to move the omission of the clause.
  Amendment moved—
  "To leave out Clause 6."—[Viscount Midleton.]
  THE EARL OF CREWE: We entirely agree to this course, which is the only possible one, because if it were not followed the other House could not really deal with the clause at all.
  LORD CLONBROCK*LORD CLONBROCK moved an Amendment to extend the restriction on the acquisition of land to land possessing an exceptional or accommodation value to the owner in connection with his farming. He explained that that Amendment and the other which stood in his name were the same Amendments as those which he had proposed when the Bill was in Committee. The noble Earl the President of the Council had then said that he would consult with the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant, to see if any words could be introduced to meet part of the difficulty which he had pointed out. That was, he thought, more particularly in connection with his second Amendment referring to "any home farm." In addition to that he wished again to press that land which possessed any exceptional or accommodation value to the owner should be exempted from the operation of the Commissioners. He had given the noble Earl notice that he did not intend to move the words "or owing to proximity to a town or otherwise," thinking it sufficient to exempt the land which possessed "exceptional or accommodation value to the owner." He had been advised by a noble and learned friend who was more skilled than himself in the strange and mysterious language of Acts of Parliament that it would be prudent to insert after the word "possesses" the words "for any reason," so that it would read "or which possesses for any reason an exceptional or accommodation value," and so on. And, although he himself could not see
  1546
  any particular force in those words, he wished to insert them. But he wished to point out the difference there was between "exceptional" and "accommodation" value. In a work compiled by the right hon. Gentleman the present Attorney-General for Ireland, Mr. Cherry, on the Land Act, he had pointed out the difference. He did not think that the learned Gentleman had used the word "exceptional," but he had pointed out the difference between "proximity" and "accommodation" value; and had pointed out that the land might be valuable when in proximity to a town from the increased prices which anybody farming it would receive by reason of that proximity and for various other reasons, whereas accommodation land would be that which the people of the town were in the habit of using. He wished to exempt any land with any exceptional value of the kind; and, among others, as he had mentioned when the Bill was in Committee, land which was held and worked by the landlord in connection with his home farm. Such land might be at some distance, or it might be at a considerable distance, and it might be of considerable extent, but it formed part of the landlord's system of farming, it entailed a great expenditure on the landlord's part in the employment of a number of labourers, and it was valuable for both tillage and also sometimes for what was called "winterage," where animals were put in to winter. If that land were taken away, or if part of it were taken away, it dislocated the whole system of farming, and the landlord would probably have to give it up altogether. That was not only a great loss and a great injustice to him, but it was a serious loss to the neighbourhood, from the loss of employment to his labourers, and also from the loss of the advantage now gained by having farms properly worked as an example to the people—who very much needed it—as to how land ought to be treated. He therefore moved to insert the words which he had read, and also in line 18 to leave out the words "immediately adjoining and"—which of course referred to the home farm and demesne.
  As to home farms, he had mentioned on the Committee stage the case of a noble Lord a Member of that House—Lord Gough—who had an

  1547
  extremely picturesque demesne—a really beautiful place—in the county of Galway. But, and perhaps for that reason, the land was not fit for tillage. He had held for years in connection with his demesne a tillage farm some distance off, but the Commissioners, in the exercise of the great powers they had in that particular way, refused to recognise the rest of his property, though it was very extensive, as an "estate" unless he threw in this tillage farm, and he had had to do so very much to his inconvenience. He submitted that it could make no difference whether the land was "immediately adjoining," and whether there was only a fence between, or whether there were a number of fields intervening. It was worked together with the demesne, and it was exceedingly hard that the landlord should be deprived of it. As the Estates Commissioners exercised the indirect compulsory powers they now had in so stringent a manner, it was much to be feared that they would adopt a similar course with the much extended power of compulsion conferred upon them by this Bill. He begged to move the Amendment as it stood with the exception that he desired to leave out after "in connection with his farm" the words "or owing to its proximity to a town or otherwise"; and in line 18 to leave out the words "immediately adjoining and" so as to let it run "any home farm or land customarily occupied with his residence."
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 9, line 12, after the word 'sites,' to insert the words 'or which possesses for any reason an exceptional or accommodation value to the owner in connection with his farm.'"—(Lord Clonbrock).
  LORD ARDILAUNdesired to support the Amendment, and said that perhaps their Lordships would not consider it unduly egotistical on his part if he instanced his own case, as it had a bearing on this point, and was typical of many others which existed. He farmed between 3,000 and 4,000 acres, most of which he had inherited, some of which he had bought, and some of which he had acquired in consequence of moving (at their own request) tenants from it to an adjoining estate, giving them double the amount of land which they had before, and subsequently selling the
  1548
  holdings to them. He wished to point out that if any land were taken from him it would doom his farming. If the mountainous part were taken, he would have no place for his stock in summer, and if the lowlands were taken, he could not carry on his farming at all. He had created this farming industry himself, and he thought it would be a very hard thing that having put very large sums of money into the farms which he held in his own hands, he should be at the mercy of Commissioners, or the Appeal Court, or anyone else, who would have power to take them from him, and to destroy the industry which he had created at large cost, expense, and trouble. It would be a loss, not only to himself, but to the poor people who were engaged in carrying on this work—herders, carters, and labourers. He would be obliged immediately to disemploy these people, and to give up farming. These farms were in a district which was well known in the West of Ireland. It was a wild country, and a country in which employment was very scarce, and where there were many people, besides those men whom he employed, who were desirous of having work. The proposal in the clause was, he thought, very unfair, because what was proposed to be done was to be done for the purpose of putting in people who had failed everywhere else, either through their own fault or through the fault of those agitators who had urged them on to their own ruin, and these men were to come in and injure the men who at present had employment, and were satisfied with their condition. That was an unjust thing, and one which he thought their Lordships would probably not sympathise with. He might add that he had no evicted tenants, and therefore any evicted tenants who were brought in would be brought in from other estates, perhaps a hundred miles off. He would like to put what appeared to him a fairly parallel case. Supposing that in England a man created an industry, say a factory, and perhaps brought it to a successful state of working, and suppose that in another factory perhaps 100 miles off the employees struck for higher wages, and the whole thing broke up. Would it be fair that the factory which had been a success should be saddled with those

  1549
  people from the other factory, and that they should be told that they were to have the advantages of the factory which was a success, because they had struck and were out of employment? He thought that was a very fair parallel to draw, and he really did not think that the House ought to consent to force landlords to give up an industry which had been started—as in his case—at considerable trouble and great expense.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I am sorry we cannot accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, and I think that both he—because he is always fair-minded—and the rest of the House must admit that the situation is somewhat altered by the announcement I made of an appeal in all these cases. If the noble Lord will look at the last words of the clause, he will see that it was provided that the Estates Commissioners should "avoid all interference with the demesne and amenity of residence of the owner of the land, or with any home farm or land immediately adjoining and customarily occupied with his residence, and land shall be selected" (this is the point I particularly wish to draw attention to) "with due regard to the general situation and convenience of the owner's property so as to diminish the value thereof as little as possible." Take the case of the noble Lord who has just sat down (Lord Ardilaun). If he were able to show, as I have no doubt he could, that the general situation and convenience of his property would be interfered with by any part being abstracted from the large amount which he has in hand, or that the value thereof would be diminished, he would have, I should have supposed, an extremely good case. Now even supposing that the Estates Commissioners, inspired by diabolical sentiments, wished to pick out the best part of the noble Lord's farm, it does surely alter the case if an appeal of the kind I have mentioned is given, and in our opinion the interests of the landlord are sufficiently protected. After all, we have not the slightest wish to attack the landlords, or to compromise them in any way. There is no conceivable reason why we should, because we wish to settle the whole of this question of evicted tenants on the most pacific lines, and if possible to establish contentment in the matter, and in our opinion this Clause 7, strengthened by an appeal, gives the
  1550
  most absolute protection to the landlords in every conceivable way.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONwas sorry that the Lord President did not see his way to make the concession of the words which the noble Lord behind him had moved, and he pointed out that although he (the Earl of Crewe) was of opinion that the words in the Bill sufficiently safeguarded the landlord's rights in that respect, yet there was very grave doubt as to whether the words had as great force as the noble Earl had assigned to them. They were not endeavouring, by this Amendment, to encroach upon the main object and purpose of the Bill as regarded untenanted land, but if he might be allowed to reinforce what had already fallen so forcibly from Lord Ardilaun he would like to do it by giving one instance to their Lordships which had come to him that morning in a letter from Lord Ashtown, written after the occurrence of yesterday at his house—an occurrence which he was sure every Member of their Lordships' House deplored. In that letter he pointed out what would be the effect, as he was advised, upon him of the Bill as it at present stood. Lord Ashtown, as he had pointed out to their Lordships on a former occasion, was probably the largest owner of untenanted farm land in Ireland; he farmed 4,000 acres of land in the West and had done so for a great number of years, and he stated that—
  "In the West of Ireland there are two sorts of land—summer land and winter land. I farm about 1,400 acres of winter land which is light rocky land, no good at all for young stock, but most valuable for old stock."
  He proceeded to say—
  "I cannot but believe that if any of my summer land be taken away it will decrease the value of my winter land. I do not think anyone in their senses would interfere with the winter land, because it cannot be tilled on account of rocks, and there is no water on it in summer at all. All I want is fair play, so that I may make the best of my land when I can, and drive plenty of labour to the people about. I am not an ordinary grazier, as I breed the whole of my own stock."
  He thought their Lordships would feel that that was a case where consideration should be shown, not merely to the interests of the landlord, but to those of the whole locality, which, if these two classes of land were divided, would certainly suffer. And yet that was precisely

  1551
  one of the cases in which the Estates Commissioners said the other day, with regard to the whole of Galway, that every acre of untenanted land in that county ought to be taken. The words which his noble friend Lord Clonbrock proposed—"which possesses an exceptional or accommodation value to the owner"—were specially designed to meet all cases of that character and certain other cases which were familiar to all their Lordships which must occur—cases where land was not precisely building land or a home farm but was in the neighbourhood of a town—he could mention many such places—and had an accommodation value to the owner which was not provided for in the Bill.
  LORD INCHIQUINdesired to say one word, as being even a larger farmer than Lord Ashtown. He had close upon 5,000 acres in his own hands at the present moment. When he said in his own hands, he meant that he was actually farming that amount himself; the actual amount he had in his own hands was nearly 6,000 acres. A great deal of that land was at a distance from his home, but was nevertheless most important to him for the purposes of farming. He sent most of his cattle away in the winter to land which Cromwell had described as not having trees enough to hang a man, water enough to drown him, or earth enough to bury him. At the same time he sent all his cattle up to that land, and they came home fatter than those he had at home feeding on hay. The whole of that land was a sheet of rock from end to end—many noble Lords knew it well—and on the small patches of earth between those rocks, strange as it seemed, valuable cattle would fatten in the most extraordinary way. He merely mentioned that incidentally to show that those distant lands were equally valuable to him as the lands immediately adjoining his residence. Last year he had saved about 600 ton of hay. Naturally that could not be grown inside his demesne, and therefore it was absolutely essential to him to have land outside of it. With that large amount, no doubt he could find untenanted land which he would be willing to give to the Commissioners, but he objected very strongly to their coming down and taking his best parts. As he had told their Lordships on Committee stage, he received as much as £6 10s. per acre
  1552
  for meadowing last year, and he objected very strongly to anyone having a right to come in at any place and take any land they might think fit. He was therefore highly in favour of the present Amendment, and urged its adoption.
  LORD DUNBOYNEsaid it was a most usual thing for people to have farms at considerable distances away to which they sent their cattle. It seemed to him that if the Amendment was not accepted by His Majesty's Government the proper title of the Act would be "An Act to increase the number of absentee landlords in Ireland." It seemed to him that that sort of legislation would drive out of the country all the people who were most valuable to it, which, he was sure, was not the intention of the Government, although it might possibly be of some of the people behind them—and whether or not that was for the benefit of Ireland he would not say. His own impression was that the people of Ireland were as loyal to the landlords as anyone else if they were only left alone.
  THE EARL OF CEEWE: I do not propose to divide the House against the Amendment, but we do not accept it.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 9, line 18, to leave out the words 'immediately adjoining and.'"—(Lord Clonbrock)
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I think I need only say that we cannot accept this Amendment for the same reason that we I were unable to accept the last, namely, that we consider that any ease of hardship such as that mentioned by the noble Lord—assuming, of course, a real hardship to exist, which no doubt it did in that particular case—would be covered by the appeal which we have given; because it is important to notice that the two things are not absolutely analogous. It is quite possible, in that particular case, that the Estates Commissioners may refuse to declare a property an estate without the addition of that particular farm, but that is by no means the same thing as their saying they will take that particular farm or any part of it compulsorily under this Act if it is a hardship to the landlord to do so.
  LORD INCHIQUIN,on Clause 9, said that he wished to make three small alterations in the sporting clause, two of which were merely verbal, and would make very little difference, but after consultation with his noble friend Lord Denman he proposed to move his Amendment in a form more acceptable to His Majesty's Government. The clause began, "Where any land is compulsorily purchased or taken." He proposed to leave out the words "purchased or taken," and to put in the word "acquired." He thought nobody could form any grave objection to that, as it was merely a difference in the wording. The clause went on "Where any land is compulsorily acquired under this Act all sporting rights hitherto enjoyed by the vendor," and so on. In place of those words he would prefer to put in the words "therefore vested in the owner of the land." He called their Lordships' attention to one word in that, namely, the word "vested." Vested might refer to two things: either tenanted land or untenanted land. In the case of untenanted land undoubtedly the sporting rights were vested in the owner; but in the case of tenanted land they might possibly not be vested in the owner, and very often they were not so vested in Ireland, because it was in many cases not customary to put in a lease the fact that the fishing and sporting rights were reserved, although they might possibly have been reserved. There was just a slight concession there which he did not think need give any great anxiety. The Bill applied to two classes of land, tenanted land and untenanted land—the untenanted land did not matter—and he thought that if their Lordships accepted the words be proposed no harm would be done to any interests in Ireland. The remaining words were those which came after "if he so desires," viz., "remain vested in him notwithstanding such purchase." He proposed to leave out the words "remain vested in him notwithstanding such purchase"; and to insert the words "be expressly reserved to him." Those words equally carried the point; and he was told by his noble friend that they might make it a little more acceptable to His Majesty's Government. He begged to move.
  Amendments moved—
  "In page 9, line 25, to leave out the words 'purchased or taken,' and insert the word 'acquired.'"
  "In line 26, to leave out the words 'hitherto enjoyed by the vendor' and insert the words 'therefore vested in the owner of the land.'"
  "In line 27, to leave out the words 'vested in him notwithstanding such purchase' and insert the words 'be expressly reserved to him.'"—(Lord Inchiquin.)
  LORD DENMANsaid that so far as the Government were concerned, they regarded these Amendments as of a purely drafting nature. They improved the form of the clause, and of course the Government were perfectly prepared to accept them, but, he must add, without prejudice to any course that might be taken in the other House in regard to that particular clause.
  LORD ASHBOURNEpointed out that the noble Earl the Lord President of the Council had expressly said that fishing rights were included in sporting rights.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I do not think the noble and learned Lord is quoting any words of mine. I mentioned fishing rights as a point which in my opinion would be covered, where damage was done to the owners of the property, by the appeal given under another clause.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid he had mentioned in his few remarks in Committee that under the term "sporting rights" fishing might be the most valuable thing in Ireland—the best places on the Shannon for salmon—and the Estates Commissioners might take a piece of land which abutted on the Shannon at that place; that showed the tremendous importance of seeing that they were adequately protected.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE moved the insertion, in Clause 14, of a proviso giving the original vendor the first option of re-purchasing surplus lands acquired under the Act, and not required for the purposes of the Act. He would not detain their Lordships at any length because he had said all he wished to say about the Amendment in Committee. It was practically the same Amendment as

  1555
  he had moved in Committee, but it had been re-drafted in order to try and meet the wishes of the Government. The Government were very difficult to please, but he sincerely hoped that he had satisfied them on the present occasion. He begged to move.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 10, line 19, after '1903,' to insert 'or may be re-sold to the vendor: Provided that no such land shall be sold to any person other than the original vendor, unless it shall have been offered to such vendor at a price corresponding to the price paid for any portion of such acquired land as has been re-sold under this Act, and unless he shall have failed to accept the said offer within a period of one month from the date thereof.'"—(Earl of Donoughmore.)
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I am sorry not to be able to agree with the noble Earl, because I feel that the drafting of this Amendment must have caused him at least one sleepless night, if not more, owing to its extreme elaborateness and complication. But, honestly, I cannot see what is the meaning, or what can be taken to be the meaning, of the phrase "offered to such vendor at a price corresponding to the price paid for any portion of such acquired land as has been resold." I am entirely unable to appreciate what is meant by the words "price corresponding" and so on. What is going to happen under these circumstances? A piece of land has been acquired by the Commissioners at a price. A certain part of it is not wanted, and therefore the original landlord, the vendor, would like to have it back. But he is to get it back at a price corresponding to that at which the rest has been sold. Does the noble Lord mean that it is necessarily a proportionate ratio per acre, because it seems to me in that event he might be in a very bad case. It might be a very cheap piece that was not required and a very valuable piece which would be kept by the Commissioners and he would have to take the cheap piece back apparently at the average price of the whole. Or, again, the rule might operate in the opposite case far too greatly to the landlord's advantage, I confess that I think it would be better if the noble Lord would strike out the whole of the latter part of his Amendment, and agree to leave it in these terms, "or may be resold to the person for whom it was acquired." The price would then become a matter of
  1556
  ordinary bargain, and I think in that ease the land could probably be secured at a fair price.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid he would be willing to accept that, provided the original vendor was given the first choice. He thought that should be done, and that it should not be left to the Estates Commissioners to say whether they would sell the land back to the vendor or sell it to somebody else. He quite appreciated the difficulty that was in the mind of the noble Earl, and it would be better, no doubt, to leave the price to bargain.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid he did not differ from that, subject to this—that he thought it was a legitimate Amendment of his noble friend to deal with this case, because it was to prevent improvidence on the part of the Commissioners in getting a great deal too much land compulsorily, and then being overstocked and working it off in a way to suit their own will—he did not use the word "will" offensively, but their own unmeasured discretion; and therefore the original vendor was entitled to say, "If you have taken too much land compulsorily I am entitled to purchase it back in priority to anyone else." Then there was the question about terms. He had not thought it out, but, supposing there were 100 acres bought by the Commissioners, ten of which were not wanted, the original vendor should, in his opinion, get that back at the same price as that given for the land all round; he should be given back his land at the same price at which it was taken from him. He thought some words ought to be inserted to show that the original vendor was entitled to the first offer, and also, if possible, words indicating that the price he received should be the measure at which he should take the land back again. That, however, was a question for his noble friend.
  THE EARL OF MAYOinquired whether the noble Lord would agree to give the vendor a pre-emption.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: Supposing it is possible to arrive at an agreement?
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: Yes.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I have no objection to that, but I think the noble Earl had better bring up the Amendment to-morrow.
  The EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid that he would do so.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Might it not run something like this: "Unless it shall have been offered to such vendor at a price corresponding pro rata to that at which it was acquired"?
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I can only speak by the indulgence of the House, but I very much doubt whether that would be an acceptable suggestion. Supposing the Estates Commissioners acquire a considerable tract, including some very bad land and some very good land, and then find that they do not want all the very bad land and they hand some of it back to the landlord. Then the unfortunate landlord, under the suggestion which has been made, will have to pay the pro rata price, and will thus be paying far too much. On the other hand, if the opposite case occurs, he may be getting some of the very good land back far too cheaply. I think it must be left to agreement.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Surely the good land and the bad land will be valued separately.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid that if nothing was clone it would be the Estates Commissioners making their own bargain but as he had already spoken to the Amendment he was unable to amplify the point.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid that he would not press the Amendment; and he would take an opportunity of discussing the point with his noble friend between then and to-morrow.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF MAYO THE EARL OF MAYO moved the insertion of a new clause after Clause 17 to the effect that the provisions of the Act should continue and remain in force for two years after the passing thereof and no longer. He desired to put some finality to the operations
  1558
  of the Bill; and he believed the Government were willing to do so. He thought it would help matters very much in Ireland to have this question settled. He spoke on his own behalf and on behalf of a great many people in Ireland whom their Lordships neither saw nor heard of, all of whom really wanted to have finality to this question. The Estates Commissioners had now issued their Report, and their Lordships had put into the Bill the number of tenants that were to be put back. Now, he and those who thought with him asked, with all moderation, that the Bill should come to an end in two years. That, they thought, was a sufficient time for the Commissioners to deal with the matter. He thought he need say no more on the point, as he believed the noble Lord in charge of the Bill was anxious that there should be a time limit.
  Amendment moved—
  "To insert the following new Clause: '18. The provisions of this Act shall continue and remain in force for two years after the passing thereof, and no longer.'"—(The Earl of Mayo.)
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I think it would give general satisfaction to everybody concerned, including the Estates Commissioners themselves, that there should be a limit to the operation of the Act. The Commissioners, however, are of opinion that the term of two years, named by the noble Earl, in view of the notices which have to be given, determination of tenancies, and matters of that kind, is too short, and they ask for four years. The suggestion we make is, that the clause should run in this form:—
  "The provisions of this Act for the acquisition of land, and for the determination of tenancies, shall continue for four years after the passing of this Act."
  It is necessary to put it in that form, because there are certain matters in connection with the Act which are not temporary but permanent. It is the power for the acquisition of land that the noble Lord means; and I am afraid we must ask for a term of four years, because the Estates Commissioners say it is necessary.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsuggested that the clause should read, "four years and no longer."
  THE EARL OF CREWE: Certainly; "and no longer," if the noble Lord likes.
  LORD CLONBROCKasked whether the noble Earl would adopt the old Irish plan of "splitting the difference," and agree to three years.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I need not tell noble Lords that I have no personal opinion on the matter. One is obliged to be guided upon this question by the Estates Commissioners, and they are afraid, they say, of having a shorter term than four years. I hope, therefore, the noble Lords will not press for a less period.
  LORD BARRYMOREsaid that he would move as an Amendment that the
  word "three" be inserted in place of the word "two."
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment is an Amendment to an Amendment.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I move it in this form—
  "The provisions of this Act for the acquisition of land and for the determination of tenancies shall continue in force for four years after the passing of this Act."
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will put "three" first, and then, if that is negatived, I will put "four."
  On Question, whether the word "three" be inserted, their Lordships divided:—Contents, 86; Not-Contents, 31.

  CONTENTS.

  Norfolk, D. (E. Marshal.)

  Wicklow, E.

  Dunboyne, L.

  Northumberland, D.

  Dunleath, L.

  Wellington, D.

  Churchill, V. [Teller.]

  Ellenborough, L.

  Goschen, V.

  Estcourt, L.

  Ailesbury, M.

  Hampden, V.

  Fairlie, L. (E. Glasgow.)

  Camden, M.

  Hill, V.

  Fermanagh, L. (E Erne.)

  Lansdowne, M.

  Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.)

  Forester, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Inchiquin, L.

  Kensington, L.

  Camperdown, E.

  Addington, L.

  Kenyon, L.

  Cawdor, E.

  Amherst of Hackney, L.

  Lamington, L.

  Cowley, E.

  Ampthill, L.

  Lawrence, L.

  Dartrey, E.

  Ardilaun, L.

  Lovat, L.

  Devon, E.

  Ashbourne, L.

  Massy, L.

  Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

  Barrymore, L.

  Muskenry, L.

  Belhaven and Stenton, L.

  Newton, L.

  Eldon, E.

  Braye, L.

  Oriel, L. (V. Massereene.)

  Haddington, E.

  Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.)

  Oxenfoord, L. (E. Stair.)

  Hardwicke, E.

  Carew, L.

  Penrhyn, L.

  Ilchester, E.

  Carysfort, L. (E. Carysfort.)

  Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)

  Lauderdale, E.

  Cheylesmore, L.

  Rathdonnell, L.

  Mayo, E.

  Clements, L. (E. Leitrim.)

  Ritchie of Dundee, L.

  Morley, E.

  Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

  Seaton, L.

  Morton, E.

  Clonbrock, L.

  Silchester, L. (E. Longford.)

  Plymouth, E.

  Cloncurry, L.

  Stewart of Garlies, L. (E. Galloway.)

  Powis, E.

  Colchester, L.

  Saint Germans, E.

  Collins, L.

  Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)

  Stanhope, E.

  Dawnay, L. (V. Downe.)

  Talbot de Malahide, L.

  Verulam, L.

  Digby, L.

  Ventry, L.

  Waldegrave, E. [Teller.]

  Douglas, L. (E. Home.)

  Waleran, L.

  Westmeath, E.

  Dunalley, L.

  Zouche of Haryngworth, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Loreburn, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Dartmouth, E.

  Denman, L.

  Onslow, E.

  Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kincardine.)

  Crewe, E. (L. President.)

  Althorp, V. (L. Chamberlain.)

  Eversley, L.

  Ripon, M. (L. Privy Seal.)

  Fitzmaurice, L.

  Airedale, L.

  Glantawe, L.

  Allendale, L.

  Granard, L. (E. Granard.) [Teller.]

  Beauchamp, E.

  Blyth, L.

  Carrington, L.

  Castletown, L.

  Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

  Craven, E.

  Colebrooke, L. [Teller.]

  Haversham, L.

  Headley, L.

  Lyveden, L.

  Sanderson, L.

  Hemphill, L.

  Nunburnholme, L.

  Stanley of Alderley, L.

  Herschell, L.

  Pirrie, L.

  Weardale, L.

  On Question, Amendment agreed to.

  LORD CLONBROCK*LORD CLONBROCK moved to insert two new headings at the end of the Schedule. He said that the Government had accepted on the Committee stage his Amendment for a periodical return by the Commissioners; but it had since been represented to him that the Schedule would be improved by the addition of two more headings under the heading of "Poor Law Valuation," namely, "Former Holding—New Holding." He hoped the noble Earl would have no objection to that Amendment.
  "In page 12, at the end of the Schedule, to insert

  Poor Law Valuation.

  Former

  New

  Holding.

  Holding.

  (14)

  (15)

  "

  —(Lord Clonbrock.)
  THE EARL OF CREWE: I accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
  Bill to be read 3a To-morrow and to be printed as amended. (No 179.)

  PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order). Bill reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
  LIGHTS ON VEHICLES BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
  VACCINATION BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendment; and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  COUNCIL OF INDIA BILL.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read:
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, this is a Bill having for its object to make some alterations in the present organization of the Council of India, which is the Secretary of State for India's Council in this country. It is a short Bill, and I hope your Lordships will accept it as containing advisable alterations in the present constitution of the Council of India.
  Your Lordships know that the India Council was constituted by the Act of 1858, at the time when the Government of India was passsd over from the Company to the Crown. It was constituted for the purpose of providing a body of competent and expert advisers for the Secretary of State. At that time, the India Council was composed of 15 members; since then, the number of members has been reduced to the present number, the utmost of which is 12; and also, the Secretary of State is not obliged to fill up the whole number, but may, under certain circumstances, appoint only a number less than the full number. Since the year 1858, territory under the Government of India has largely increased in various directions. I may mention specially the direction of Burmah, and my right hon. friend Mr. Morley has come to the conclusion that it would be desirable to increase the present number of Councillors to 14, that is still less than the number fixed under the Act of 1858, and I believe that I may assure your Lordships that that is a necessary and advisable increase. Your Lordships are, I think, aware that it is the intention of my right hon. friend to appoint two native-born Indians to the Council as soon as he can, but I desire to point out that that is no reason why the number of other members of the Council should be diminished, because it is most desirable to have on the Secretary of State's Council representatives of the various Administrations and Departments of the Government of India, that is to say, representatives of the Army, of the Local Governments of the Provinces, and of Finance and Revenue. Therefore the

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  Secretary of State thinks that it is important that we should revert again rather towards the number, though not to the full number, of Councillors as fixed by the Act of 1858. I believe, considering the increase of territory of India, the increase of the population of India, and the increase of Indian interests in every direction, it is very desirable that the number of the existing Indian Councillors should be increased as proposed by this Bill. There is nothing, I think, excessive in the number suggested; it is still, as I say, less than that established by the Act of 1858; and I venture, therefore to recommend that provision to your Lordships' acceptance.
  Then, my Lords, the next clause in the Bill provides that those appointed who have Indian experience shall have come home from India not more than 10 years. I am very strongly impressed with the belief and conviction that a reduction in the period of time since the Councillor to be appointed has left India is very important. You want to have, as I think my noble friend, Lord Lansdowne will agree, the most recent experience that you can get in the Council of the Secretary of State. We often hear about the "unchanging East," but very great changes take place in India from time to time, and it is most important that the Secretary of State at home should have the most recent experience that he can have at his disposal for his advice. Then it is proposed to shorten the period of tenure of office from ten to seven years. That, again, I think is a good arrangement, and tends in the same direction, namely, to get more recent experience; and I have the strongest conviction that that is a matter of much importance.
  Then there is another matter—I have taken it rather in the wrong order, but your Lordships will excuse me for that—and that is, that it is proposed to reduce the salary, which at present stands at £1,200 a year, to £1,000 a year. Some criticism might perhaps be offered upon that point, but my right hon. friend feels, as I think we all must feel, that he is bound to keep down every branch of Indian expenditure that he can, and that it is particularly undesirable that the expenditure connected with the India Office should be at a higher rate than is absolutely necessary. It must be
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  remembered that the majority of the members of that Council are mea who are in receipt of an Indian pension of £1,000 a year, and that they receive their salary as Councillors, whether it be £1,200, or £1,000, in addition to their Indian pension; their pension does not cease with their appointment to the Council. Therefore they receive practically from Indian revenues £2,000 a year. There are no doubt other members of the Council who have not been in the Civil Service or the Military Service of India, and who stand upon another footing, but then it is open to them to engage in other avocations; they have time at their disposal, and I think that a salary of £1,000 a year is quite sufficient for the purpose. Those gentlemen, my Lords, and the men of the same class upon the India Council, render, and have always rendered, very valuable assistance to the Secretary of State in financial and other matters; they are most important members of the Council of India; but I believe that £1,000 a year is quite sufficient for the purpose, as they are not required to devote the whole of their time to their duties at the India Office.
  Then, my Lords, the Bill proposes to repeal the two Acts of Parliament which made the changes to which I have referred in the Act of 1858—and, of course, the repeal of those Acts is necessary if your Lordships agree to this Bill. I cannot but think that the proposals of the Bill will make an important change in the constitution of the Council of India at home; and I am glad to have this opportunity of expressing my entire concurrence in the proposal of my right hon. friend to appoint two native-born gentlemen of India as members of this Council. I believe that that is a very wise and judicious step; I believe it is the best form and the best mode of associating native gentlemen with the Secretary of State in this country; and it is a great pleasure to me that that proposal should have been made by my right hon. colleague. I beg to move the Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."
  LORD AMPTHILL: My Lords, I fully appreciate the fact that the House is weary after the exhausting labours of

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  the past few days, and I should be the last to trespass upon the patience and forbearance of your Lordships. But, I really feel, as one who has recently held a position of responsibility in India, that it is incumbent upon me to say what I think of this Bill, and as I have nothing but cordial—I might even say enthusiastic—approval to express, the duty becomes for once in a way a real pleasure. I should like first to say incidentally that knowing as I do the feelings of the people of India, I rejoice particularly that the noble Marquess who leads the House should be in charge of this Bill, for I am sure the fact will meet with very enthusiastic and affectionate approval in India.
  My Lords, I am surprised that this Bill should have attracted so little notice or comment, notwithstanding the fact that there are so many other legislative attractions, for it seems to me a measure of no small importance. It is a step, and a very decided step, in the direction of meeting the hopes and wishes of those classes in India who, taught and inspired by ourselves to aim at political progress on Western lines, aspire to take a greater share in the government of India, and to exercise a larger influence on that government. It is not my purpose—it would not in any circumstances have been my purpose—on this occasion to discuss the whole question of present day political tendencies in India, to examine their depth and extent, and to suggest the limitations by which British rule must be preserved. I am only concerned with the primary object of this Bill, which, as the noble Marquess pointed out, is to enable the Secretary of State for India to nominate Indians for appointment by His Majesty as members of the Council of India. I take it that the proposed alterations in the conditions of appointment of the other members of the Council are incidental to this primary object, and the necessary consequences of experience at the India Office, but in the presence of my noble friend the late Secretary of State for India I will not presume I to discuss those proposals. But the appointment of Indians to the Council of I the Secretary, of State has been long and earnestly desired by Indian politicians of all shades of opinion, whether they be moderate or extreme, and I for one rejoice heartily that the wish is to be
  1566
  gratified. It has always seemed to me a perfectly natural, legitimate, and reasonable wish, and I am confident that nothing but good will result from its realisation. It is very easy to point out difficulties, but what branch of public affairs is there in which it is not easy to point out objections and difficulties? How, it is asked, will you find two Indians to represent the feelings and views of the numerous races in India, with their diversities of language, religion, and custom, and their differences of political opinion—differences as wide and as varied as those which subsist in this country? Of course you will not be able to find such men, any more than you are able to find in this country Ministers of the Crown who represent the views of more than a portion of the population. But those who are appointed will be Indians, and that fact will be a fact of far greater importance to the people of India than it is possible for anyone who has not lived there to realise. Again, it is asked how are you to find Indians of the necessary ability and experience, combined with the requisite means and leisure which will enable them to leave their own homes and avocations and to take up their residence in this country? I believe that in politics as in economics demand creates supply, and that men are made by circumstances rather than circumstances by men. You will get the right men, men who will be invaluable to the Secretary of State in the changing conditions of Indian administration. You will get them, if not at once, certainly in due course of time. In this matter we may be guided by our own experience in this country. With every change of Ministry, with every new appointment of the Government, the public at large say, in respect of all except those few who are recognised as the leading statesmen of the day, that they wonder how such obscure and insignificant men can possibly have been chosen for such important and responsible posts. But in a very short time—in a few months—all that is changed, and the public—certainly the public on one side of politics—regards those men as the right men in the right places, and fully admits their competence to discuss the affairs of the nation and to take their part in guiding national affairs. My point is that you cannot tell what men are made of until

  1567
  you have tried them; you cannot say that men are fit or unfit for responsibility until you have placed them and proved them in responsible positions.
  Now, of course, there are many men—a great many men—of intellectual eminence, of great capacity and of high character, among the educated classes in India, and it is to my mind inconceivable that among those men there should not be found some who are both able and willing to fill these posts with credit to themselves and advantage to their countrymen. The high traditions of the office of Secretary of State for India make it certain that the right men will be chosen, and it is equally certain that that selection, whatever it may be, will be criticised and disapproved by a great many people in India. But to my mind that criticism and that disapproval will be of no more consequence and no more disadvantage than the criticism and disapproval of responsible men in this country. The Secretary of State will have the advantage of having at his side, among his advisers, men who feel like Indians, and those who have been in India will know what I mean when I say that the inner workings of an Indian mind are not exactly the same as those of an English mind. His Majesty's Government must not expect loud-voiced gratitude or delight in India over this concession. Those who express their opinion at all will say that it is a trifling concession, one which is hardly worth thanking for, and that it will in no way satisfy their demands. But the Government may rest assured that they will have another form of gratitude—the silent appreciation of that large section of the educated classes in India who firmly believe in the justice and advantage of British rule, and who will recognise in this concession yet another proof of the affection and sympathy of the Government and people of this country. That is why I say that this concession would be worth making even if it could be proved that no material advantage would result from it. It is a fulfilment of pledges, an earnest of goodwill, and a proof of sympathy. And, my Lords, there are no people in the world who respond more readily, more gratefully, and more sincerely to the human note in public affairs than do the people of India. It will be said
  1568
  that this is a concesssion to agitation. I know that it is nothing of the kind, and I am glad that the Secretary of State takes the view that we are strong enough to persist, without fear or hesitation, in the course of progress and reform, in spite of the disloyalty of the few and the discontent of some others. My Lords, I congratulate His Majesty's Government on the policy which is initiated by this Bill.
  VISCOUNT MLDLETON: My Lords, after the eloquent tribute which has been paid by my noble friend, who has himself filled the office of Viceroy, and who has concurred entirely in the speech of the noble Marquess opposite, who also has filled that high office, it seems almost unnecessary for me to add what I should desire to add in one single sentence—my entire appreciation of the policy initiated by His Majesty's Government in this Bill of placing two natives upon the Council of India. I hope that we may anticipate very happy results from that measure, although I am sure the guarded note of my noble friend behind me (Lord Ampthill) is one which will commend itself to those who are acquainted with politics in India.
  My Lords, at this hour I propose in the fewest possible words to make one or two observations upon the other provisions in the Bill. I quite agree with the noble Marquess in saying that it is desirable that the limit of five years rather than ten from the period of leaving India should be the period for appointment to the Council of India at Whitehall. I also feel that there is great force in the proposal that instead of an appointment for ten years, as heretofore, the appointment should be for seven years. A man who, for thirty years or more, has done the enormous amount of work which falls upon an Indian civilian of the present day, and who comes home, would perhaps sometimes enjoy an unduly prolonged tenure of office if, after those thirty years of service in India, he was appointed for ten years without any possibility of reconsideration by the Secretary of State.
  I venture most heartily to congratulate the Government, so far as these two objects of the Bill are concerned, upon having attained them, but I should like

  1569
  also to say one word in the most respectful manner after what has fallen from the noble Marquess as to the increase in the number of members of the Council. This is in direct opposition to the whole policy which has been pressed upon and pursued by Secretaries of State for some time past. So far from the Council of India having been considered to be unduly small, successive Secretaries of State have even left vacancies unfilled, because they felt that the work to be divided, and the charge to be put upon the public, were not adequate to the large number, as I think it is, of the present Council. The power of the Council of India is very great. It is only those who are immediately connected with the business of India perhaps who appreciate how great it is. They are the colleagues of the Secretary of State, not his subordinates, and they are his masters in the matter of finance. Except in questions of high policy, such as Cabinet questions, the Secretary of State is voting only as one of twelve in his own Council. Surely, in a case in which the responsibility is so great, it is desirable rather to concentrate responsibility than to dilute it, and the larger the number the more it must be diluted. The larger the body the less must be the individual responsibility. Let me just take the facts. When I joined the Council as Secretary of State I think the number was eleven. It has been on several occasions within the last five years ten. At this moment it is only nine, although the Secretary of State has within the last three or four months appointed three members. So that there are now three vacancies, and there would be no difficulty whatever in his introducing two Indian representatives and still having a vacancy to dispose of. And if I might make a suggestion to the noble Marquess—because I feel very strongly upon this point—I would ask why, if the number were maintained at twelve, should you not have two representing India, two lawyers, as at present, two soldiers if you desire it, two financiers as at present, and still four other administrators? Were you to do this you would still give to the civil servants of India practically the same representation and the same number of posts as has been the case for some years past.
  While I feel very strongly upon that point, I will not say another word upon
  1570
  it, because of the moment at which I am speaking. But I would also urge most strongly that this proposed reduction of salaries is inopportune and undesirable. Of course I see the object of His Majesty's Government. They do not want to increase the total charge, and so they have given the salaries of twelve men divided amongst fourteen. But I put it to the noble Marquess, after his own observations as regards the settlement of 1858, if it was in 1858 desirable to give a man £1,200 a year when he came home, in addition to his then pension, how much more important it is not to decrease the amount now, when an Indian civilian can save so far less during his period of office than he could in 1858. Men come home with comparatively very small sums put away, and it seems to me highly undesirable to reduce the pay of those men from £1,200 to £1,000. But there is another class whose salaries it is absolutely injurious to the Council to reduce in amount. You ask two men of the highest financial repute in the City that you can get to come and advise you at the Council on most important and very large interests. There is the greatest difficulty in inducing those men to come. Even in the last few months the Secretary of State has lost one most able representative because he was unable to give the time from his other business without great loss to himself. I do not mean to say that the difference of £200 a year will make a complete difference in getting such a man, but it is a difference the wrong way, and if you ask a man to give up engagements at a cost very often of some thousands in order to give you his attendance, it is certainly undesirable to cut down the amount of the not large stipend which you pay him.
  I have ventured to put these points forward, and I would urge them upon the attention of the Government. I will not move any Amendment to this Bill. I should be extremely sorry to appear in any way to cavil at any act taken upon the responsibility of the Secretary of State for India, and still more upon the responsibility of a Secretary of State so broadminded and of so much experience in affairs as the present Secretary of State for India. But I believe that if these points are reconsidered by

  1571
  the Government it will be found possible to do all that can be desired by pre serving the present number of members, that you will have a much better security by keeping to the present salaries, and that if you carry the Bill reducing the number of years service and the number of years pay after leaving India, you will have achieved a very valuable reform without impairing the usefulness of a body whom we all desire to see as efficient as possible.
  On Question, Motion agreed to. Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (TONNAGE DEDUCTIONS FOR PROPELLING POWER) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order). An Amendment made. Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendment to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 180.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: When docs the noble Lord propose to take the Third Reading of the Bill?
  THE EARL OF GRANARD: Whenever it will suit the noble Marquess. I should like to take it as soon as possible.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I would only remind the noble Lord that the evidence of the Committee is not yet printed, and I will ask him not to take it until next week.
  THE EARL OF GRANARD: Very well.

  NATIONALTY CONVENTION WITH THE REPUBLIC OF HAYTI.
  LORD NEWTON: I will not detain the House more than a minute or two in reference to this matter, but I wish to give my noble friend opposite an opportunity of making a statement upon the subject. Briefly, the facts are as follows. In April, I think, of last year, the British Consul-General in Hayti concluded a convention with the Haytian Government under which all coloured persons of British origin who were born after 1889 became Haytian citizens, and all Haytian subjects in the same position who were
  1572
  born in British territory became British subjects. It will be observed that this is a retrospective Convention. There would be nothing to be said against it if equal advantages were obtained by both sides, but although it is obvious that there may be considerable advantages in becoming a British subject there are no apparent advantages in becoming a subject of the Republic of Hayti. I never heard anyone express a desire to become a member of that community, and I do not think anybody is likely to come across anyone possessing peculiar wishes of that kind. I am given to understand that those persons who are affected consider themselves naturally somewhat aggrieved, and although I am well aware that it is very inconvenient, in some instances, that there should be British subjects who are not particularly desirable acquisitions, and who have to be protected, and so forth, yet I confess that it seems rather hard that persons who have been brought up in the belief that they were British subjects should now be placed in a position of becoming citizens of the Haytian Republic. I would therefore ask my noble friend to make a statement upon this point. I should like to know whether any expressions of dissatisfaction have reached him, and I should also like to ask him whether it is the case, as I have been assured, that a similar Convention was proposed to the French Government and the German Government, and that in both cases those two Governments refused to entertain the proposal.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord FITZMAURICE): I shall be very glad to make a short statement in reply to the interesting points with regard to the law of nationalisation and nationality in Hayti which my noble friend has raised. The facts are as follows, and I think my noble friend will see that there is a good deal of misapprehension on the subject. The Convention signed at Port au Prince on the 6th April, 1906, was concluded in order to settle various questions of nationality which had arisen between the United Kingdom and Hayti. Certain claims were made against the Haytian Government by persons (mainly of West Indian descent, and mostly, I believe, of Jamaica) whom his Majesty's Government held

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  to be British subjects, but whom the Haytian Government considered as Haytian citizens under Article 3 of the Constitution of 1889. The third paragraph of this Act runs as follows:—
  "All persons born in Hayti of a foreign father or, if not recognised by the father, of a foreign mother, are Haytian subjects provided that they are of African descent."—
  while Article 6 of the same Constitution states that only Haytian subjects can hold real property in Hayti. In view of those Articles in the Constitution, and of the claims made by the persons above referred to, it was considered eminently desirable to end the disputes regarding questions of nationality by the conclusion of some arrangement with the Haytian Government; and, on the Haytian Government submitting a draft Convention on the subject, His Majesty's Government expressed their willingness to come to some settlement. These negotiations resulted in the signature of the Convention of 1906 which I have already mentioned. The chief points to be noted with regard to this Convention are that only persons of British origin who have been born in Hayti since the promulgation of the Constitution of 1889 and whose nationality is fixed by Art. 3, par. 3, of the Constitution, already quoted, are regarded as Haytian subjects, while resident in the Republic. Consequently, children of white parents not descended from the African race cannot, even if born after the Constitution of 1889, be claimed as Haytian subjects, unless in cases where a white subject should marry a woman of African descent and have issue by her. No such case is, however, at present known. The large majority of the persons affected are those who since the Constitution of 1889 was promulgated, have been born in Hayti of parents of African descent and who, through their education, associations, and practically everything else, can only be rightly described as Haytian citizens and whose nationality in fact is regarded as Haytian. In most cases these persons are unable to speak English, and are entirely Haytian in instinct, customs, and habits. Art. 1 of the Convention is additionally safeguarded by Art. 6, the first paragraph of which is as follows—
  "The names of the British subjects now resident in Hayti shall be communicated by His Britannic Majesty's Consul General to the Haytian Government, and provided that
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  they have hitherto been regarded as foreigners in Hayti shall receive diplomatic protection from His Majesty's Government."
  Those persons who, under this Convention, become subjects will, of course, enjoy all rights and advantages possessed by Haytian citizens, and will be entitled to hold all kinds of real property, from which they are now excluded. As far as the Foreign Office is aware, no negotiations have taken place between the German and the French Governments and Haytian Government with regard to the conclusion of any similar Convention. With regard to the question of whether any complaint has been lodged at the Foreign Office, I may say that there was a question asked in the House of Commons the other day by a Member of Parliament of the Secretary of State, and an outline of the same reply which I have now given was communicated to him; but, with that exception, I am not aware that there has been any complaint.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I move that the House do now adjourn. I believe that the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Northumberland) and others are anxious that I should now state what course it is intended to take with the Deceased Wife's Sister Bill. The intention of the Government is to move the Second Reading on Tuesday next, and the Bill will be in charge of Lord Tweed mouth.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: Will it be the first Order of the day?
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I have not actually considered the Order, but as far as I know it will be.
  THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: I only want to know whether it will be practically the first Order. It will not, I presume, be treated like the Tonnage Bill of last night.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I have every anticipation that there will be a long debate, and I will endeavour to give proper time for it.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Nine o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.