Lords Sitting of 26 November 1906

REPRESENTATIVE PEER FOR SCOTLAND.
The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had received (by post) from the Lord Clerk Register of Scotland minutes of the election of the Earl of Rothes as one of the sixteen Peers of Scotland, 8th November last, in room of Ronald Ruthven Earl of Leven and Melville, deceased; and separate return by the Lord Clerk Register of certain titles of Peerage called at the said election, in right of which respectively no vote had been received and counted at any election for fifty years then last past (pursuant to Act 14 & 15 Vict. chap. 87.). Ordered, that the said minutes of election, etc., be printed. (No. 217.)
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Edinburgh Corporation (Superannuation) Order Confirmation Bill, Brought from the Commons and read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a. (The Lord Hamilton of Dalzell), and reported from the Committee.
PETITION.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition against; of inhabitants of Hatherop. Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ARMY.
  Report of the War Office Committee on promotion to colonel and general.

  POLICE (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Return relative to the appointment of matrons at police stations and police courts.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  WEIGHTS AND MEASURES ACT, 1878.
  Order in Council, dated 16th November, 1906, approving certain new denominations of standard measures of length.

  GREENWICH HOSPITAL ACT, 1865.
  Order in Council, dated 16th November, 1906, sanctioning the payment of Greenwich Hospital special pensions to persons residing in his Majesty's Dominions abroad, in the same way as if they resided in the United Kingdom.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH, who had the following Notice on the Paper, "To call the attention of the House to a statement made by the First Lord of the Admiralty on the 23rd of July, in which he said that ' most elaborate instructions were being drawn up to be given to captains of merchant vessels,' in case of war or imminent danger of war; and also to ask His Majesty's Government what punishments could be inflicted under our present laws on alien officers serving on board of British ships in the event of their infringing or divulging the secret instructions confided to them, and thus increasing the risks incurred by other British vessels; and if, on inquiry, such punishments are found to be less severe than the penalties to which officers of British nationality would be liable; whether His Majesty's Government would bring in a Bill to put the alien officers of British ships in the same position as British subjects as regards punishment for such conduct," said: My Lords, as your Lordships will have an opportunity of discussing the subject of alien captains when the Merchant Shipping Bill comes up for Second Reading to-morrow, I beg to put without further comment the Question that stands in my name.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord TWEEDMOUTH): My Lords, I am sure I am voicing the feelings of your Lordships when I congratulate the noble Lord on the happy prospect that is opening up before him. The noble Lord has put to me something in the nature of a legal conundrum rather than anything else, and I think

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the best thing I can do by way of answer is to read the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown which I took on the subject.
The Law Officers report that under the law of high treason; (a) officers who are British subjects would be liable for communicating to the enemy secret information to the prejudice of this country wherever the offence was committed; (b) aliens employed as officers on British ships would incur the same liability if such information were communicated either on the high seas or in the territorial tidal waters of any other State. It is probable, but not certain, that this liability would attach even though the information were communicated on foreign territory, provided the alien officer retained at the time his position on the British vessel to which he was attached. Under the Official Secrets Act (a) officers who are British subjects would be liable for communicating secret information within the meaning of that Act anywhere; (b) alien officers would clearly be liable if the communication were made within His Majesty's dominions in the ordinary sense of that term, and probably, though not certainly, the Court would hold that this expression applied to a British ship on the high seas and in the tidal territorial waters of other States. No distinction is made between the punishments imposed on British subjects and aliens after conviction. Of course there is no intention of giving any great opportunity to captains to distribute information as to the intentions of the Admiralty. The idea really is that we are to have all the instructions drawn up; and then, if necessity arose, instructions for a particular voyage would be given to the captain of a particular ship as to the course he ought to take in the event of dangers arising.

LABOUR RECRUITING.
LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether it is true—(1) That effective licences to recruit in Portuguese East Africa for the mines in the Transvaal have been or are about to be issued to Mr. J. B. Robinson; (2) that the Colonial Government of Portuguese East Africa has objected and
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still objects to the issue of more than a licence for one individual; (3) that Diplomatic pressure has been brought to bear to force the Colonial Government to issue more than one licence against their will; (4) and that His Majesty's Government will similarly assist other groups of mining companies to obtain the same privileges; and to move for Papers.
On two occasions during the summer I addressed Questions to the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies on this subject, and, relying on the very frank statement he made that he had nothing to conceal, I am proposing to give him the opportunity of affording your Lordships the fullest possible information upon the steps that have been taken by the Foreign Office to assist the noble Earl in his policy as regards labour in South Africa. Perhaps I may be permitted to recapitulate very shortly what I stated on those occasions. Previous to the war the mining houses, feeling how detrimental was the system under which recruiting went on for the mines, and the grave objections that there were to many of the processes which had been introduced in the shape of touts and the resources they adopted to filch recruits away from other touts, decided that it was necessary to form a system of co-operation, and during the war that co-operative system was founded and it subsequently came into effect.
One of the principal results of the cooperative system was that it assisted the weakest mining properties; that is to say, the chain was no stronger than its weakest link. The scale of remuneration had to be adapted to the means of the poorest mine. Therefore, the wealthier mining houses had to forego some of the advantage which they could have secured by their larger capital and larger resources. The system of co-operation was certainly advantageous in doing away entirely with the objections—I think I might use a stronger term and say the iniquities— which were prevalent under the touting system. In order to carry out co-operation effectively the acceptance of the system had to be secured from the Governor General of Portuguese East Africa, and that officer, having also experience of the objections that existed under the touting system, did approve of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association being, with its officers, permitted

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to recruit within the colonial territories of His Most Faithful Majesty. That system went on. I do not pretend to say it was absolutely perfect.
It is said that if other methods had been adopted more recruits could have been obtained. It is within the experience of every mine manager on the Band that men come to him and say, "If you will give us an order we will bring in so many thousand recruits." These are only statements, very often put forward by men who are dissatisfied with the abolition of the old touting system. There is no proof whatever that competition would be any more successful in securing recruits than the system adopted by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. Then last summer the noble Earl announced that His Majesty's Government thought it would be advantageous to obtain for a group—the Robinson group—a licence to recruit in Portuguese East Africa, and I took the liberty of pointing out at the time that this change of policy would inevitably lead to competition and might partially reintroduce those objectionable practices which had been swept away with the old touting system, I pointed out that this was largely a matter of local concern, and I did not understand why the noble Earl was interfering with the local arrangements of a colony which was so shortly to receive local self-government. However, His Majesty's Government were positive that it would be advantageous to introduce competition.
My information—and I believe it to be quite as reliable as that of the noble Earl—is that the Portuguese Government object in the strongest possible way to competition being reintroduced. They had experience of what went on as regards His Most Faithful Majesty's subjects under the old system, and they entertain the strongest possible objection to anything of the kind being reintroduced. They have had some years experience of the methods of working of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association; they know the men who are trusted as recruiters, and they prefer to go on with that system. But my information is that His Majesty's Government have brought every possible diplomatic pressure to bear upon the
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Governor-General of Portuguese East Africa to compel him, if possible, to grant what I have described as effective licences. The result of the noble Earl's negotiations last summer was that, after some pressure I believe, the Governor-General did issue a licence to the nominee of the Robinson group. It was a licence for an individual only and did not convey rights or powers to any delegates; and the Robinson group, so I understand, find that that is not an effective licence, and they have, I presume, approached the Government to induce them to use their diplomatic power to obtain further licences for a number of recruiters.
A licence for one individual is, I suppose, found ineffective, and the Robinson group is not getting anything like the number of boys that it received when it was a member of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. The Robinson group was one of the original members of the association, and remained a member until quite recently, when, having broken the rules, it was invited to withdraw, and it did withdraw, and it is no longer a member of the association, though it can become so at any moment by complying with the rules. I want your Lordships to understand clearly what will be the effect of competition if the policy of the noble Earl results in competition, as I think it must. The wages of Kaffirs in South Africa are already extortionate, and the poorer mines can ill afford to pay even the present rate. If the wages and the expense of bringing East African Kaffirs to the mines are increased, as they inevitably will be by competition, it is highly likely that the margin of profit now made by many of the smaller mines will be swept away, and it will be a matter for the consideration of the directors whether they can go on working at all. If the mines are closed it will result in a certain number of Europeans losing their employment. There is no doubt that that will be the effect if the wages of the Kaffirs rise.
What I want the noble Earl to understand is that it is inevitable, if this pressure which I am given to understand he is causing to be brought to bear on Portuguese East Africa is successful and

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effective licences are granted, that the result must be competition — for this reason, that the supply being limited the Robinson group will undoubtedly try to secure the best boys and will give a longer price either in wages or in the initial bonus to the Kaffir. In one way or the other, prices will be raised by a system of competition. The effect will not be only as regards the mines; many other industries in South Africa will be affected. As I have already pointed out, the result of co-operation is that the general body of mines have to adapt their rate of wages to the capacity of the weakest mines, and if some of these mines have to discontinue working and cease to be members of the association they will undoubtedly approach His Majesty's Government in the same way as the Robinson group did and ask to be allowed to obtain effective licences to recruit in Portuguese East Africa. I ask the noble Earl, who has nothing to conceal, what answer he would give to such an application. If his answer is that he would not endeavour to secure effective licences for any other groups, I would ask him to explain why one group is to be treated more favorably than another, why partiality is to be shown to one group, and why others are not to receive the same favour. I cannot think that your Lordships will hold this to be a very dignified position on the part of Great Britain. If it was for some great object I could understand diplomatic pressure being brought to bear upon a not very wealthy, not very important, and not very large Portuguese Colony. But what is the object? I cannot see that there is any other end than to attain some very petty advantage for the party and the policy which the noble Earl represents. I daresay the gentlemen who represent them out there, the engineers who are somewhat discredited—your Wybourgs and your Creswells — will make some capital out of it. But is that a very dignified proceeding on the part of His Majesty's Government?
I cannot understand what the object of the noble Earl is. The Government profess to desire, so I understand it, that Chinese labour shall cease in South Africa, and they profess to believe that there is plenty of native labour. They will not accept the opinions of the two
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Commissions which have reported that there is not sufficient labour in South Africa. They will not recognise the facts as regards the cost of native labour, and they are now pursuing a policy which, in my opinion, and in the opinion of every one who has gone into the matter closely, must inevitably lead to the raising of the cost of labour—a result which will effect not only the mines, but every industry. Under these circumstances I think I am justified in submitting the Motion that I do for Papers to be laid on the Table, in order that your Lordships may understand what are the communications that have passed between His-Majesty's Government and the Government of His Most Faithful Majesty on the subject of recruiting in the Colony of. Portuguese East Africa.
Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for Papers relating to the issue of licences to recruit in Portuguese East Africa for the mines in the Transvaal."—(Lord Harris.)
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ELGIN): My Lords, in reply to the first part of the noble Lord's Question, I have, of course,. to say that it is our desire that effective licences to recruit in Portuguese East Africa should be issued to Mr. Robinson. I have said so before and I repeat it again. With regard to the two following Questions I am put in rather a difficult position by what the noble Lord has just said,. because he has informed your Lordships that he is in possession of information to which he attaches more importance than to anything that I can say. In these circumstances it is rather hopeless for ma to attempt to convince him.
LORD HARRIS: What I said was that I believed my information was quite as. reliable as that possessed by the noble-Earl. I did not say that it was more important.
THE EARL OF ELGIN: The noble Lord. said he considered it quite as reliable, and. I can see from the tone of his speech, where he would place the reliance most implicitly. I have only to say, with regard to the negotiations—I object to the term "diplomatic pressure "—which

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have taken place with the Portuguese Government, that it is not the case that they have been in any way unfriendly. Certain questions have arisen which have necessitated correspondence, and delay has ensued which is not unusual in such circumstances; but the Portuguese Government have expressed a desire to meet our wishes, and the negotiations are still proceeding. Until they have been concluded I cannot, of course, go into details, and I cannot lay the Papers upon the Table of the House.
With regard to the fourth Question of the noble Lord, it seems to me to presuppose one of two things—either that there should be further secessions from the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association or that the association should entirely break up. I have seen both suggestions made, but I am not quite sure from the noble Lord's speech to which he inclines. I can say—and the noble Lord challenged me on the particular point that I had nothing to conceal —that I have nothing to conceal in this matter. In either case we should certainly wish to deal fairly with those members of the association. If it were a question of secession, I do not see that we could object to applications being lodged for further licences, and we should certainly consider them fairly, subject to the conditions which were imposed upon the Robinson group, namely, that we were satisfied from the substance, the status, and the responsibility of the group that good management could be secured. If, however, it were a question of the break up of the association as a whole, I think, perhaps, it would be light for the Government of the Transvaal to be satisfied that a scheme of groups would really cover the whole situation.
But while I say this, and while I mean what I say that we should wish to deal fairly with any applications of the kind, I think it is right to point out to the noble Lord, of which, indeed, his Question and his speech are very good evidence, that there would be great possibilities of delay in the matter, not only under the same circumstances as have occurred in the one with which we are now dealing, but also because, as, I think, your Lordships have been informed, we have engaged with the
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Portuguese Government that we would not apply for more than a licence for one additional group until an inquiry had been held into the whole question. I cannot tell how long an inquiry of that kind would take, but pending that inquiry it would no doubt be impossible for us to support the issue of fresh licences. I may, perhaps, remind the noble Lord of what he is no doubt well aware, that this proposal for an inquiry was supported, if, indeed, it was not originated, by the Chamber of Mines, itself in July last. In these circumstances I think it might be imprudent for members of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association to separate themselves from the association with undue haste, because undoubtedly there might be delay in their obtaining the other licences on which they would rely for their recruiting. I hope the noble Lord will allow me to say that I make this observation as a friend. I have no wish, and have never had any wish, to quarrel with the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. On the contrary, I think that I have admitted before, and I am willing to say it now, that I entirely agree that the methods which were adopted under the authority of that association were a great improvement on those that existed before. We have said most distinctly that we wanted nothing less than the resurrection of those old methods. But, my Lords, what I ventured to insist upon on a previous occasion, and what I must repeat, is that the association is throughout entirely a voluntary association. It is, I believe, constituted by articles of association, and I think the noble Lord himself has said that any member can retire from the association, or, as he put it, be expelled.
LORD HARRIS: I did not use the word expelled.
THE EARL OF ELGIN: I thought the noble Lord said that—
LORD HARRIS: I said that Mr. Robinson was asked to withdraw as he had broken the rules, and he did withdraw.
THE EARL OF ELGIN: I think it comes to nearly the same thing. At

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any rate, the noble Lord said that a member might be asked to withdraw and have a right to withdraw. In that case the whole point turns, I think, on the question whether the action of the association is acquiesced in or not by its members. If it had been acquiesced in throughout I do not suppose that it would have been disturbed yet, but if it were to be put in any other position than that, it would practically become a monopoly, and all I can say is that I do not think anything would justify the creation of a monopoly officially recognised in the hands of an association of that kind. I think some of the remarks of the noble Lord were a little discouraging on that particular point. He spoke of the results of — shall I say the breaking up of the association? —at any rate of any large secessions from the association, as meaning the closing down of the poorer mines and the increase of wages to the natives. With regard to the wages of the natives, which I suppose is the determining point in both cases, the noble Lord has said that they are exorbitant. That may be so; I do not wish either to deny it or to affirm it; but I think it is rather difficult to see why natives should not choose whether or not they wish to work or why they should not get for their labour the amount of money which they can legitimately procure for it. I can well understand that it is to the interest of the mining industry that even the poorer mines should not be crushed out, and personally I should be sorry to see any mines not being able to work as they have been accustomed to. On the other hand, I do not, in the least advocate any inflated rate of wages for the natives. But I do say that the native of South Africa, whose whole position is one of the great problems that lie before us in the future, has, at any rate, a right to fair play and to be treated with the consideration which is due to him as a free labourer in the country to which he belongs.
LORD HARRIS: My Lords, if the noble Earl says that the Papers are not full enough to give your Lordships the information that I suggest you are entitled to, naturally I will not press my Motion; but I trust that Papers will be laid as soon as the noble Earl feels that they are complete. May I in reply,
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before actually withdrawing my Motion,, point out that what the noble Earl calls a monopoly is only a monopoly as regards the East African native; there is no monopoly as regards the whole of the rest of South Africa. What I am afraid of is that without any advantage to the natives themselves, except I admit as regards an increase of wages, the noble Earl may find as a result of his policy the introduction of a portion of that old touting system in Portuguese East Africa, which, from all the professions of his Party as regards Chinese labour, he most certainly would not wish to see introduced; and I must repeat what I only said prophetically just now, that I cannot see the justice of selecting one particular group, and granting that group privileges without an inquiry which the noble Earl now says he will grant to no other group except after an inquiry, and he does not know how long that inquiry might take. In the meantime, if there is a break up of the association all those mining groups have got to suffer. It has been proclaimed with some bombast in another place, that the result of this confederacy between His Majesty's Government and the Robinson group is that an experiment is to be tried with white labour on that group. Perhaps the noble Earl on some other occasion will tell us how far that experiment has gone. Another result of it is that the Robinson group were able to announce with a flourish of trumpets that they resign any claim they had on Chinese labour. Those were the two political moves that the Government had ir. their minds in making this offer to obtain additional labour for the Robinson group. But I understand that Mr. Robinson has not obtained the additional labour sought for, and that he has no intention whatever of making this experiment with white labour. I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

LAND TENURE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 218.)
House adjourned at ten minutes past Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, Two o'clock.