Lords Sitting of 29 May 1906

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:

1. Post Office (Money Orders),

2. Seed Potatoes Supply (Ireland).

3. County of Aberdeen (Monymusk Bridge and Road) Order Conciliation.

4. Cathcart District Railway (Superfluous Lands) Order Confirmation.

5. North Berwick Corporation Order Confirmation.

6. Metropolitan Police Provisional Order.

7. Crystal Palace Company.

8. Dover Harbour Board.

9. Kidderminster Gas.

10. H. R. Baines and Company.

11. Vauclain's Patent.

12. Bethnal Green Borough Council (Superannuation).

13. Millwall Dock.

14. Antofagasta (Chili) and Bolivia Railway.

15. Sheffield Assay Office.

16. Carlisle Corporation.

17. Manchester and Milford Railway.

18. North Metropolitan Tramways,

19. Essex and Suffolk Equitable Insurance Society.

20. Milford Docks.

21. Mirfield Gas.

22. Thornton Urban District Gas.

23. Accrington District Gas and Water Board.

24. Great Eastern Railway.

25. Knott End Railway (Extension of Time).

26. Wallis' Divorce.

Several Lords took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parlia-
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ments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway; North and South Shields Electric Railway; Twickenham and Teddington Electric Supply; London Brighton, and South Coast Railway; London United Tramways; Manchester Corporation.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, that the further Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Sutton, Southcoates, and Drypool Gas Bill ought to be dispensed with, and the Bill allowed to proceed.
Read, and agreed to.
Portsmouth Water Bill [H.L.], reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill [H.L.]; Truro Gas Bill [H.L.]; Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Sewerage Board Bill [H.L.]; reported, with Amendments.
Alexandra (Nowport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Bill [H.L.]; reported, with a further Amendment.
Southampton Gas Bill; reported, with an Amendment.
Holyhead Water Bill [H.L.]; Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Lord Tredegar's Supplemental Estate Bill [H.L.]; read 2aand committed.
Waterford Corporation and Bridge Bill; read 2a, and committed, the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Ritz Hotel Bill [H.L.]; read 2a(according to order).
Trent Navigation Company Bill [H.L.]; read 3a; an Amendment made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
Bombay, Baroda, and Central India Railway (Purchase) Bill [H.L.]; read 3a;

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an Amendment made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
Great Yarmouth Waterworks and Lowestoft Water and Gas Bill [H.L.]; Epsom and Ewell Gas Bill; Huddersfield Corporation Bill; Bacup Corporation Bill; Cardiff Gas Bill; Uxbridge Gas Bill; Macclesfield and District Tramways Bill; Midland Railway Bill; London and South Western Railway Bill; Waterford Corporation and Bridge Bill; Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords he proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; viz., E. Lauderdale (chairman), E. Bathurst, V. Falmouth, L. Kilmaine, L. Kensington; agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly; the Committee to meet on Tuesday, the 26th of June next, at Eleven o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.
Derby Gas Bill; Pontefract Corporation Bill; Rochester, Chatham, and Strood Gas Bill; Cheltenham Gas Bill; Edinburgh Corporation Bill; Metropolitan Railway Bill; South Suburban Gas Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a and referred to the Examiners.
Sea Fisheries Provisional Order Bill. Brought from the Commons, and read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners. (No. 112.)
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Devon, &c.) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to order), Bill reported without Amendment, Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3aon Thursday the 14th of June next.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Marriages Provisional Order Bill. Read 3a(according to order), and passed.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill [H.L.]; Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]; Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H.L.];
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Tramways Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a(according to order).
Local Government(Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill. Read 2a(according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 14th of June next.
London Government Schemes (London and Penge, &c.) Bill. Read 2a(according to order), and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order).
[The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clauses 1, 2 and 3 agreed to.
Clause 4:—
LORD MONKSWELL, who had given notice to move, as an Amendment, the insertion of the following new clause after Clause 4, viz.:—
"Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 92 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, the council may take such part of the lands, houses, and premises shown on Plan No. 6, and distinguished thereon by the Nos. 1 to 21, and of the land, house, and premises shown on Plan No. 8, and distinguished thereon by the No. 2, and described in the schedule to this Act, as they may require, without being required or compellable to purchase the whole or any greater part of any such lands, houses, and premises. The provisions of this section shall be stated in every notice given thereunder by the council to sell and convey any premises,"
said ho explained the other day the object of his Amendment, and he did not think it necessary to repeat what he had then said or to add anything to it. He was perfectly willing, however, to accept the substituted Amendment which had been put down by the Karl of Camperdown, and he would not, therefore, move his Amendment.
THE EARL OP CAMPERDOWNexpressed his satisfaction that the noble Lord had seen his way to accept his Amendment. Their Lordships would remember that on the last occasion when the Bill was in Committee the Committee stage was postponed in order that they

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might look into his noble friend's Amendment and see what it meant. He (Lord Camperdown) had the opportunity afterwards of consulting the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees and his Department, and he ascertained that when it was a question of taking parts of a property only there was a model clause—Clause No. 29 in the Railway Lands Orders—dealing with such cases. That was the clause which he now moved should be inserted, and he was very glad that Lord Monkswell had accepted it. The new Clause standing on the Paper in the name of Lord Monkswell, but which the noble Lord had signified his intention of not moving, proposed merely to take parts of the land, and there was no reference in it to the compensation that was to be paid or to the question as to whether it was possible to take part of the land without materially injuring the rest. The model clause of their Lordship's House which ho (Lord Camperdown), proposed to insert provided that the owners might, if certain portions of the land, etc., could, in the opinion of the jury or the arbitrators, be severed from the remainder without material detriment, be required to sell these portions only, the council paying for the portions required by them and making compensation for any damage sustained by the owners thereof by severances or otherwise. The model clause, therefore, provided that the county council were to pay, not merely for the part they took, but also for any damage which might be occasioned by the severance. That seemed to him the obviously fair and proper way of dealing with the matter, and he understood that that was also the view of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
"After Clause 4, to insert the following new Clause—'And. whereas in the exercise of the powers of this Act it may happen that portions only of the lands, buildings, or manufactories shown on the deposited plans may be sufficient for the purposes of the same, and that such portions may be severed from the remainder of the said properties without material detriment thereto; therefore notwithstanding Section 92 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, the owners of and other persons interested in the lands, buildings, or manufactories shown on Plan No. 6, and distinguished thereon by the Nos. 1 to 21, and on Plan No. 8, and distinguished thereon by the No. 2, and described in the schedule to this Act, and whereof parts only are required for the purposes of this Act, may, if such portions can in the opinion of the
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jury, arbitrators, or other authority to whom the question of disputed compensation shall be submitted, be severed from the remainder of such properties without material detriment thereto, be required to sell and convey to the council the portions only of the premises so required without the council being obliged or compellable to purchase the whole or any greater portion thereof, the council paying for the portions required by them, and making compensation for any damage sustained by the owners thereof and other parties interested therein by severance or otherwise.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
LORD MONKSWELLsaid this might be a model clause, but the sooner it was remodelled the better. What he objected to was the last sentence, because it raised some doubt as to the meaning of leaving out Clause 92 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act. By omitting that clause, as proposed in his (Lord Monks-well's) Amendment, they deprived the owner of one particular means of getting compensation only. The rights of the landlord with regard to damage in consequence of severance remained exactly as before; therefore it was unnecessary to insert the proposed provision, but as this was a model clause he did not wish to fight it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to, and Bill reported with Amendment to the House.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION.
  Petitions in favour of denominational religious teaching in schools, of teachers in schools at Salesbury; Bolton; Water-head Oldham; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  EDUCATION.
  Petitions in favour of maintenance of existing religious education in Church of England Schools, of parents and guardians of children attending schools in Bolton (2); Salesbury; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
    INDIA (ACCOUNTS AND ESTIMATES, 1906–1907).
    Explanatory memorandum by the Secretary of State for India.
    DUBLIN METROPOLITAN POLICE.
    Statistical Tables for the year 1905.

    HISTORICAL MANUSCRIPTS (ROYAL COMMISSION).
    Calendar of the manuscripts of the Marquis of Ormonde, K.P., preserved at Kilkenny Castle. New Series, Vol. IV.
    Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

    SHOP HOURS ACT, 1904.
    Orders made by the councils of the following metropolitan boroughs, and confirmed by the Secretary of Slate for the Home Department, fixing the hours of closing for certain classes of shops within the respective boroughs—Lambeth; Battersea.
    Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

    JOURNAL COMMITTEE.
    Report from, that the general index to ten volumes of the Journals, viz., from the one hundred and twenty-six to the one hundred and thirty-fifth, both inclusive (57th and 58th Vict.—3rd Edw. VII.) is ready for delivery: The same to be delivered in the usual manner.
    TRADE REPORTS: (ANNUAL SERIES).
    No. 3601. Spain (Canary Islands); No. 3602. Germany (Pomerania); No. 3603. Netherlands (Curacoa); No. 3604. Peru (Iquitos).
    MISCELLANEOUS.
    No. 651. French Mercantile Marine Laws.
    TREATY SERIES No. 6, 1906.
    Treaty between the United Kingdom and Spain for the marriage of His Majesty the King of Spain with Her Royal Highness Princess Victoria Eugenie Julia Ena; signed at London, May 7th, 1906. (Ratifications exchanged at London, May 23rd, 1906.)
  CONVEYANCING BILL [H.L.]
    SETTLED LAND BILL [H.L.]
      MARRIED WOMEN'S PROPERTY BILL [H.L.]
      The evidence taken before the Select Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered out, except to members of the Committee, and such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order. (No. 113.)
      WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY BILL.
      Reported from the Standing Committee without further Amendment: The Report of the Amendment made in Committee of the whole House to be received on Thursday, June 14th next.
      COLONIAL MARRIAGES BILL [H.L.]
      Reported from the Standing Committee with an Amendment: The Report thereof to be received on Friday, June 15th next; and Bill to be printed us amended. (No. 114.)
      PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
      Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 92, and 93, be suspended; and that the time for depositing petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, also the time for depositing Documents relating to any Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House at Whitsuntide, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the Recess.

    RESERVE FORCES BILL.
    [SECOND READING.]
    Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
    *THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH): My Lords, the object of this Bill is to amend the law relating to the Reserve Forces. Lender the Reserve Forces Act of 1882, the Army Reserve is a force authorised to be kept up in the United Kingdom only. Many Reservists are anxious to reside in India and the Colonies, and it is extremely undesirable that they should be prevented from

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    doing so. At present the services of Reservists so residing are practically lost, as there are no means of enforcing their liability to come up for annual training or when called out on active service. Clause 1 of this Bill allows Reservists to reside in India and the Colonies, and it also provides the necessary machinery for enforcing the liability for service of Reservists allowed to reside abroad.
    This matter is one of some practical importance, as is shown by the fact that the number of Reservists residing at present in India is 322, and in the Colonies 3,619, and the number living abroad constantly tends to increase. Clause 1 also authorises the enlistment into the Army Reserve of men residing in India and the Colonies. The Colonial Office objected to the application of this provision to the self-governing Colonies on the ground that it would tend to diminish the incentive in those Colonies to provide an adequate force for Colonial defence. The self-governing Colonies have, therefore, been exempted from the provisions of the Bill so far as they relate to enlistment. As regards Clause 2, Section 14 of the Reserve Forces Act, 1882, prohibits the appointment and transfer of a Reservist to a corps which is not in the arm or branch in which he previously served, but gives him no right to insist on joining his former regiment. It is found that this limitation hampers the authorities in their mobilisation arrangements by the inelasticity which it imposes on the system, whilst, on the other hand, it does not secure to a Reservist any right of serving with his former comrades.
    As an instance of the disadvantages of the present system I might cite the case of the Remount Department. This Department on a peace footing requires comparatively few men, but in time of war has to be enormously increased. The Department forms part of the Army Service Corps, but the Reservists belonging to the Army Service Corps are all required for transport service. On the other hand, there may be a considerable number of Cavalry Reservists who are not wanted for Cavalry service. Under the existing law these Reservists could not be required to serve in the Remount Department. The pay warrant can make the necessary provision to
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    prevent the Reservist suffering in the matter of pay by reason of his being transferred to a branch of the service in which the pay is lower than that in which he served. This Bill is very much wanted, and I hope your Lordships will consent to give it a Second Reading.
    Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
    THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, this Bill is, I think, word for word a duplicate of the Bill which I was privileged to submit to your Lordships last year. I entirely agree that it is a Bill which is very much wanted, and I support the appeal of my noble friend that your Lordships should allow it to pass.
    On Question, Bill read 2a, and Committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday the 14th June next.

    SEAMEN'S AND SOLDIERS' FALSE CHARACTERS BILL.
    [SECOND READING.]
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
    *THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, this is another Bill which is very much wanted, and I do not think it is in any way contentious. The object of Clause 1 is to provide a summary punishment for persons who make fraudulent use of good conduct certificates of discharge granted to seamen, soldiers, and marines. As the law stands at present it appears to be a misdemeanour at common law to forge a character or to utter a forged character, and presumably a person who personated the holder of a discharge certificate in order to obtain any advantage for himself would be guilty of cheating at common law; but these offences are punishable on indictment and not summarily. A precedent for a summary penalty is furnished by the Servants' Characters Act, but that Act clearly does not apply to soldiers' characters. As there are at present a large number of discharged soldiers, it is important to protect them and also the public against impostors. The power to proceed summarily will not interfere with the power

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    to proceed by indictment in an aggravated case.
    As showing the necessity for the legislation proposed by this clause I have had a great many typical cases furnished to me. I will only trouble your Lordships with two or three. In February, 1897, a man attempted to obtain employment at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, by means of a discharge certificate which he subsequently admitted was forged by himself. The Treasury Solicitor advised that no action could be taken. In August of the same year another man presented a certificate, subsequently proved to be a forgery, at the Employment Registry of the London Recruiting District. In this case the Treasury Solicitor advised that process should be applied for against him under the Servants Characters Act. This was done, but the magistrate at Bow Street refused the application on the ground that the Act applied only to domestic servants. In January, 1903, a man presented a certificate in which the original character had been erased and "excellent" had been inserted. The case was brought to notice by Lloyd's Patriotic Fund, but no action appears to have been taken.
    The object of Clause 2 of this Bill is to prevent false characters being given by men offering themselves for enlistment. This provision has become all the more necessary now that a character is required from all persons who enlist. The clause also makes it an offence to give a false character if the person giving it allows or intends it to be used for the purposes of enrolment or enlistment in the Navy or Army. The clause is intentionally drawn so as to be wide enough to include false characters given by persons other than employers, such, for instance, as a friend or an acquaintance, or a schoolmaster. I have a number of curious cases showing the necessity of this clause. In February, 1904, a man came up at one of the out-stations and gave a reference which provided him with a good character for seven years. He was duly enlisted. He said he had never been convicted, but shortly after he had joined something cropped up which caused a letter to be written to the police about him. From the answer received it appeared that there was a long list of civil convictions against him,
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    and that he had spent the whole of the seven years in prison and was known to the police as the worst man in the county. The man who had furnished him with this seven years' good character turned out to be his own brother in-law, who said he gave it to him as he wanted to get rid of him.
    There was another case of a man who was discharged from the Army with ignominy. He re-enlisted, and was again discharged with ignominy. He enlisted a third time at Cardiff, and a character was obtained from a man to the effect that he had employed this individual for five years up to within the previous ten days, and that he had never served in the Army. The object of the Clause is to put a stop to proceedings of this kind. Clause 3 has been inserted for reversing the decision which was given in a recent case, to the effect that Section 16 of the Naval Enlistment Act, 1853, which imposes penalties on persons who make or give false statements upon entering or offering themselves for naval service, does not apply to a man entering the Naval Reserve Force. The ground of the decision seems to have been that as no Naval Reserve had been constituted at the time of the passing of the Act of 1853, and the nature of service in the Reserve Force is of an entirely different character from that of service in the Navy, the Act of 1853 would not apply to service in the Reserve without an express enactment to that effect. This is a Bill of considerable importance and of some urgency, and I hope your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
    Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Portsmouth.)
    THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I hope the language of the Bill is not that used by the noble Earl. I presume that the intention of the clause is not to reverse the decision, but to alter the law in accordance with the decision, which was rightly given in the case to which he referred, and to prevent that difficulty occurring again.
    On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 14th of June, next.

    POLICE SUPERANNUATION BILL.
    Order of the day for the Third Reading read.
    Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(Earl Beauchamp.)
    On Question, Bill read 3a.
    EARL BEAUCHAMP EARL BEAUCHAMP moved, on behalf of the Home Office, to amend Clause 3 "Reckoning of approved service in different forces," by making the period of approved service which a constable, who had retired without a pension and subsequently joined some other police force, was entitled to reckon at the end of his service in the first mentioned force, not less than "three" completed years.
    The noble Earl said: My Lords, it is with considerable regret that I rise to move the Amendment which stands in my name. I will remind your Lordships of the circumstances. When the Bill was in Committee of the whole House an Amendment was moved by Lord Newton to the effect that there should be no limitation at all put upon the police constable changing from one service to another. On behalf of the Home Office I objected to the Amendment of my noble friend, and we came to a compromise by which the word "two" was introduced into the clause in the Standing Committee.
    Since then, however, I regret to say it has been discovered by those concerned that the alteration trenches upon that somewhat debateable ground, the privileges of the other House. The pension of the constable is made up partly of deductions from his pay and partly from contributions out of the rates. Your Lordships will see that if it is made possible for a constable to get that pension when he has been two years in the first service instead of throe it follows that a larger sum will have to be found out of the rates. A charge on the rates is thus involved, and that brings the clause as amended within that region of privilege into which this House does not generally go. It is rather a piece of constitutional purism; it is not a matter of very great importance, and I venture to say it is not worth discord. The police-constables of the country are, I believe, entirely satisfied with the original proposal of the Bill, and I beg, therefore, to move the Amendment, which will reinstate that proposal.
    Amendment moved—
    "In page 2, line 17, to leave out sub-section (1); and in line 28, to leave out the word 'two' and to insert the word 'three'" —(Earl Beauchamp.)
    LORD NEWTON: My Lords, the statement of my noble friend is perfectly accurate as regards myself, but I am inclined to take some exception to one expression which he made use of. The noble Earl said in the course of his statement that it had been discovered by those concerned, that this Amendment constituted a breach of privilege. Who are those concerned who have made this discovery? Surely the persons concerned are the House of Commons; but what I gather from the noble Lord's statement is that some well-meaning but officious personage, presumably a clerk, has pointed out that, in his opinion, this Amendment is a breach of privilege. Thereupon my noble friend, terrified by his action, has run away as fast as he could from his own Amendment. I suppose that I ought to sympathise with the noble Lord, because in his desire to placate me he has, apparently, almost involved this House in one of those grave constitutional struggles with another place which are foreshadowed in the prophetic imagination of persons who take a despondent view of the political future. I suppose I must congratulate him upon a fortunate escape.
    I do not want to make a fuss about what is essentially a small matter, but I am bound to say that it appears to me to be a somewhat curious proceeding to invoke this tremendous weapon of privilege in order to defeat a trumpery Amendment of this description. If we are to be bound in the future by rulings of this kind it seems to me that our sphere of activity will be considerably circumscribed. With a little ingenuity it may be possible to show that almost any Amendment which is made in this House involves the further expenditure of money, and then your Lordships will have little power to alter or amend anything. My noble friend distinctly gave me an undertaking on behalf of the Government that this Amendment should be introduced into the Bill, and I hope the noble Lord will fulfil his promise and undertake to use his influence in another place to get the substance of the Amendment reinserted in the Bill.
    THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON): My Lords, I do not think my noble friend who represents the Home Office is in any way to blame in regard to this matter. No doubt there has been a mistake. I do not complain of the noble Lord opposite in the least degree. If anybody is to blame in the matter I think it is myself. I did not attend to the discussion when the Bill was going through as I ought to have done, or it would have suggested itself to me, with my long experience, that the alteration was inconsistent with what is understood to be the privilege of the other House. I have no doubt myself that it was inconsistent. The opinions which the Government have obtained are such as are entitled to weight, and I hope the House will consent to my noble friend's Amendment.
    THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the noble Marquess and the noble Lord who represents the Home Office have explained the situation with great frankness. I think we are bound to accept the explanation. I have no doubt that the noble Lord who represents the Home Office has satisfied himself on the highest available authority that the matter is regarded as one of privilege. My noble friend behind me taunted the noble Lord with having allowed himself to be influenced by persons whom he described as well-meaning but officious personages, but it occurs to me that those personages may be the same to whom the other House of Parliament would appeal for guidance in a difficult case of the kind, and therefore the probability is that the view expressed by the noble Lord is that which would prevail.
    On Question, Amendment agreed to.
    Bill passed and returned to the Commons.

    PATENTS, DESIGNS, AND TRADE MARKS (REGISTRATION OF PATENT AGENTS) BILL [H.L.]
    Read 3a (according to order) and passed, and sent to the Commons.
    House adjourned at five minutes past Five o'clock, to Thursday, the 14th of June next, a quarter past Four o'clock.