Lords Sitting of 10 May 1906

Preamble
Several Lords took the Oath.
His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales singly took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Macclesfield and District Tramways Bill; Midland Railway Bill. Read 2a and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Bury Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Great Northern Railway (Ireland) Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Bethnal Green Borough Council (Superannuation) Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  FEE FOND OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
  The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid on the Table the Annual Account of the Fee Fund of the House of Lords.
  The same was ordered to lie on the Table, and to be referred to the Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices.

  NAVY (NEW SCHEME OF TRAINING).
  Reports of Departmental Committees appointed to consider certain questions concerning the extension of the new scheme of training for officers of the Navy, etc.
  ARMY.
  Interim Report of Anti-typhoid Inoculation Committee.
  TRADE REPORT (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 3582. Turkey (Aleppo).

  EVICTIONS (IRELAND).
  Return of evictions in Ireland, for the quarter ended March 31st, 1906.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  INDIA.
  (Home Accounts)—;Home accounts of the Government of India. (Finance and Revenue Accounts)—;Finance and revenue accounts of the Government of India for the year 1904–1905. (Estimate)—;Estimate of revenue and expenditure of the Government of India for the year 1905–1906, compared with the results of 1904–1905.

  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Rule amending the time table of examinations for the year 1906.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  EDUCATION.
  Petition in favour of denominational religious teaching in schools; of teachers in schools in Burnley; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
NEW BILL.
  STREET BETTING BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for the suppression of betting in streets and other public places was presented by the Lord Davey; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday next. (No. 79.)

POLICE (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
[SECOND READING].
Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, this is a small Departmental Bill, the larger part of which has been inherited by His Majesty's Government from their predecessors. It is, therefore, largely uncontroversial, and I hope your Lordships will give it a Second Reading without difficulty. The main object of the Bill is clearly stated in the first clause. It is to give pensions to constables who continue to serve after they have qualified for a pension. The idea is that the various local authorities should be able to retain in their service experienced men who are still fit to do the work, and that their pensions should not be made subject to

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forfeiture if during the time they serve afterwards they make some slip which might render it necessary otherwise for them to forego their pension. It is hoped by the Home Office that one result of this Bill will be to reduce the heavy burden which at present rests on the ratepayers for police pensions. To give an instance, I may state that the deficiency on the Metropolitan Police Pensions Fund which is not met by deductions from the pay was in 1894 not more than £39,000, while last year it amounted to £177,959. It is hoped that by giving a small gratuity to these policemen they will continue to serve, and that therefore the whole of the pension will not fall on the rates. The second clause makes it clear that if a constable rejoins the force after having left owing to illness or some other cause, his early service shall rank for pension. Clause 3 deals with approved service in case of Naval and Army Reservists. The other clauses are quite simple, with the exception of Clause 7 (reckoning of approved service in different forces), on which I understand it is not unlikely that one noble Lord will desire to move an Amendment in Committee. In the circumstances I think it better to defer what I have to say on that clause until we reach the Committee stage. It is hoped that the Bill will prove a considerable boon to a very deserving class of public servants, and I hope your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—;(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Bill read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS (BUILDING BYE-LAWS) BILL [H.L.]
Order of the day for the Third Reading read.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—;(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I have to move a few Amendments. They have been prepared by the Local Government Board, and I understand that the noble
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EARL the President of the Board of Agriculture has expressed his assent to their being inserted in the Bill. They have been designed with the view of making, the Bill more workable.
Amendment moved—;
"In Clause 2, page 1, line 24, after the word 'building' to insert the words 'or any part thereof.'"—;(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—;
"In Clause 2, page 2, line 7, to leave out 'Sub-section (3).'"—;(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—;
"In Clause 2, page 2, line 13, after the word 'building,' to insert the words 'and the curtilage of the building shall be deemed to be the space formed by the curtilages of the two dwelling-houses,' and to insert as a new sub-section' Where any stables, offices, or other outbuildings are appurtenant to, or used or intended to be used in connection with, any building or any part thereof, and are within the same curtilage as that building, that building shall not be excluded from the exemption under this section by reason of being within thirty feet of any of those outbuildings, nor shall any of those outbuildings be excluded from that exemption by reason of being within thirty feet of that building or of any of the other outbuildings.'"—;(Lord Hylton.)
On Question Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—;
"In Clause 3, page 2, line 41, after the word 'thereof' to insert the words 'or with another dwelling-house separated therefrom as mentioned in Sub-section 4 of this section; nor shall any such detached building as is lastly herein mentioned, be excluded from this exemption by reason only of its being within thirty feet of the dwelling-house in connection with which it is constructed to be-used, or of another dwelling-house separated therefrom as aforesaid.'"—;(Lord Hylton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

PUBLIC TRUSTEE BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have prepared a new sub-section to Clause 4 in compliance with my promise

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to Lord Faber. The new sub-section differs only in a slight degree from the Amendment that ho himself moved, and I hope he is satisfied with it.
Amendment moved—;
"In Clause 4, page 5, line 16, to leave out Sub-section (3) and to insert the following new sub-section: '(3) Any banking or insurance company or other body corporate may, by order of the Court, made on the application of any person on whose application a new trustee may be appointed, or by or under the instrument creating the trust, be appointed to be custodian trustee of any trust, with power, if the Court so order or the instrument so direct, to charge and retain or pay out of the trust property the same fees as are chargeable by the public trustee as custodian trustee, or such smaller fees as the Court or instrument may direct; and where any such appointment is made, the provisions of this section shall, subject to any directions contained in the order or instrument, apply as they apply in the case where the public trustee is appointed to be custodian trustee, except that if the court or instrument so direct, the trust property and the right to transfer or call for a transfer of shares, stock, and securities shall vest in the custodian trustee jointly with the managing trustees.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD FABER: I am quite satisfied with the Amendment, and am much obliged to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for bringing it forward. It meets the object I had in view in my Amendment which I withdrew on the Committee stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of the next Amendment is to make perfectly clear the intention of the original clause.
Amendment moved—;
"To leave out Clause 12 and to insert the following new clause: 'The provisions of this Act with respect to the High Court shall, in their application to cases within the jurisdiction of a palatine court, include that court, and the public trustee shall provide an address within the county palatine where service upon him of any proceedings under this Act in such palatine court may be effected; the rules of court relating to the exercise of the jurisdiction of a palatine court under this Act shall be made by the authority having power to make general rules and orders of that court.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Consequential Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is intended to meet the suggestion made in Committee by my noble and learned friend Lord Ashbourne. By this Amendment it will be for the Lord Chancellor, with the concurrence of the Treasury, to provide for the establishment and regulation of any branch office where he thinks it necessary. It was not intended that this power should rest with the public trustee.
Amendment moved—;
"In Clause 15, page 12, line 13, to leave out the words 'by the public trustee.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of my last Amendment is to make it clear that rules may be made for excluding any particular kind of trust from the operation of the Act.
Amendment moved—;
"In Clause 15, page 12, line 14, after the word 'office' to insert the following new paragraph: '(e) Excluding any trusts from the operation of this Act or any part thereof.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to. Bill to be read 3a To-morrow; and to be printed as amended. (No. 81.)

ALIENS BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 80.)
POST OFFICE (MONEY ORDERS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
SOLICITORS BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

COTTON CULTIVATION.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHrose to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Government had given the British Cotton-Growing Association

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any facilities for the development of the growth of cotton in the British Empire, and to move for Papers. The noble Duke said: My Lords, I am afraid it is not very often that I find myself in agreement with the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies in the administration of Colonial matters, but I rather hope that on the present occasion in regard to the matter which I venture to bring before the notice of your Lordships, although I do not expect to be in entire agreement with the noble Earl, I may receive from him some attention to the views which I shall express and also some consideration in the reply which he will give me. I am anxious to ask the noble Earl whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to support and to give their sympathetic consideration to the aims of the British Cotton-Growing As sociation. Furthermore, I wish to ask the noble Earl whether His Majesty's Government intend to follow the policy of their predecessors and do all in their power to develop cotton-growing in the West Indies, and in West Africa, and whether they will consider seriously the possibility of the development of railway construction in Northern Nigeria.
But before I venture to put these Questions to the noble Earl I should like to remind your Lordships of the causes which led to the creation of the British Cotton-Growing Association. As your Lordships are aware, the great industry in Lancashire is nearly entirely dependent for the supply of the raw material of cotton on the United States of America. It is difficult to ascertain the exact amount of cotton produced and consumed throughout the world in any one year; but this I can say, without fear of contradiction, that although the amount of cotton produced in America is larger every year, the tendency is for the ratio between consumption and production to be greater in the case of consumption. Moreover, when we bear in mind that the population of the United States is largely increasing, that they are employing more cotton every year themselves, it is evident that the amount of cotton available for the Lancashire market is becoming less and less every year. The consequence is that the price has a tendency to rise. The noble Earl is well aware that the
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greatest amount of our cotton trade is conducted in the East, and he must in those years in which he administered the Indian Empire have seen that the natives in India could only afford to buy our cotton goods when they were at the cheapest price possible. It is perfectly clear that a rise in the price of cotton would increase the cost of articles, and the tendency would be for our Eastern trade to diminish.
There is a further danger. A reduction in the supply of the raw material of cotton would be serious, but together with a bad harvest in America the result would be positively dangerous to Lancashire. When there is a bad harvest the supply is curtailed, and consequently gambling is promoted and speculation in the cotton crop takes place. The speculation has this effect, that the price of cotton in a very few years varies between 20 and 70 per cent. The result is that would-be purchasers do not dare to buy. The manufacturer consequently has to employ the stock which he possesses, to work either short time, or shut down his mill altogether. I daresay there are some noble Lords in this House who remember well the evil effect upon the population of Lancashire during the time of the cotton famine. I do not think I need dwell upon the terrible suffering which took place at that time, but the effect upon the population of Lancashire of having to work short time is similar to the grave effects which were associated with the cotton famine. Working short time in Lancashire is a sort of echo of those gloomy and terrible days. The loss to the wage-earning class is something like £300,000 a week, or a total of about £15,000,000 a year.
Your Lordships are aware that the cotton industry, after agriculture, is the biggest industry in this country. It employs some 3,000,000 operatives directly, and 10,000,000 of our population are indirectly associated with the cotton industry. The total value of the exports of cotton amount to between £80,000,000 and £90,000,000 a year. Yet this great industry, this industry which is so indissolubly connected with the prosperity of Great Britain, depends entirely for its future upon the goodwill and consideration of a foreign though friendly Power.

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There is only one remedy that we know of for getting rid of this fear as to the shortage of raw material in the future, and that is to multiply the sources of supply throughout the world, so that it will be impossible in the future for any combination of gamblers to corner the cotton crop and make the prices so fluctuate that the industry in Lancashire is jeopardised or brought to the verge of ruin. So far, I think, I shall be in agreement with the views of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies; but I should like to go one step further, and say that, since we are all agreed that the sources of supply should be multiplied, I for my part would sooner see those supplies produced within the confines of the British Empire than in any other part of the world.
The British Cotton Growing Association was formed for this very purpose. The late Government gave it support and sympathetic help. We did so from a Colonial Office point of view because, in the first place, we recognised that we had many tracts of territory in our Colonies and protectorates which were undeveloped and required to be developed. We knew that the production of cotton would be a source of benefit to the natives; it would give them healthy as well as remunerative employment. We furthermore believed that we should give a sympathetic support to those who represented a great staple industry, so that it could not be claimed that lack of interest on our part had been prejudicial to the industry, and that it had suffered from lack of foresight or care on the part of His Majesty's advisers.
I am not at all certain that the Party to which noble Lords opposite belong hold similar views with regard to our great staple industries. I know that on many occasions they have expressed views on this particular matter which do not in the least coincide with the views of the Unionist Party. Frequently it has been stated on platforms that if one industry failed the members of it might perfectly well turn their attention to some other industry. If one industry, through either economic or industrial
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causes, failed, what did it matter? Those employed in it could perfectly well turn their attention to some other industry which would be of more value. As an example of what I am saying I cannot do better than quote the words which the present President of the Board of Trade made use of one or two years ago. Talking about the industries of this country, he said—;
"For one trade they lost they simply substituted another and a better one. They might have lost the puddlers, but it meant they were giving employment to engineers and those who obtained better wages. They simply substituted a higher-class trade that paid better. They had lost sugar refining, which did not require much skill."
Speeches similar in strain to that have been frequently delivered by members of the Party to which noble Lords opposite belong. What I want to know from the noble Earl is whether he will, in approaching this question of supporting, safeguarding, and protecting the future welfare and prosperity of the great cotton trade, ignore and place on one side the extreme economic views which I know his party hold, and which, if driven to their logical conclusion, would mean that the Government could not show any sympathetic regard or consideration for possible damage or injury which might affect the cotton trade in the future, but that if the people in the cotton trade could no longer get their raw material they must turn their attention to some other industry which would be more profitable to them and to the world at large.
I submit to the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies that the production of cotton for England is a national matter. It is associated with the second greatest staple industry in this country, and consequently the Government of the day are bound to give it their sympathetic support and consideration, and cannot afford to ignore how indissolubly it is connected, with those other subsidiary industries which depend so largely on its prosperity and success. Therefore, I am anxious to hear from the noble Earl whether, in approaching this question of safeguarding the interests of Lancashire in the future, he will do so in the spirit of recognising the importance of a staple industry in this country.

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It is perfectly true that the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies has said in the last few weeks that the British Cotton Growing Association has his sympathy, and incidentally he alluded to the fact that the noble Earl's views were in accordance with his own. I was very pleased to read that statement, but I confess I should have more confidence if we could get a definite expression of opinion from the Secretary of State himself, for, after all, he is supreme. His views are represented in the Cabinet, and I should have a feeling of greater confidence if I could hear from his own lips his ideas upon this very important matter. He has, if I may venture to say so, in this particular matter somewhat delegated his authority to his very distinguished subordinate. I more readily recognise the ability of his official subordinate than that it is his duty continually, both in the House of Commons and in the country, to convey to the public the colonial policy of His Majesty's Government.
The Under-Secretary for the Colonies has told us what the British Cotton Growing Association has done in the last three years. He has told us that in 1903 the value of cotton grown by them amounted to only £29,000, but that for this year the estimated crop amounts to no less a figure than £330,000. I cannot help feeling that those who are interested in the industrial development of this country, and, in particular, in the maintenance of the cotton industry of Lancashire, are indebted to the master spinners and operatives for their courage, their foresight, and their patriotic endeavour to establish cotton growing within the confines of the British Empire. Further, I think that the great efforts which they have made—;efforts of self-denial in a way, because they are doing this, not for themselves, but for their children who come after them—;deserve the sympathetic consideration and support of His Majesty's Government, and I shall be very glad to know whether or not I am right in assuming that they will receive it.
I want also to ask the noble Earl whether he intends to give every assistance to the development of cotton growing in the West Indies. I know that when it was a question of supporting and maintaining the sugar industry there,
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members of his Party displayed very little concern and very little interest. Indeed, we were frequently reminded that we were merely bolstering up an industry of the West Indies at the expense of those who lived in this country. I do not expect noble Lords opposite to show any great interest in the sugar industry of the West Indies, although I might incidentally observe that, as a result of the policy of the late Government, the sugar industry there is now in a flourishing condition. Are you going to pursue a policy of consideration towards those who are developing the cotton industry in the West Indies, or are you going to regard it in the same light as the sugar industry?
I turn now to West Africa. I desire to ask the noble Earl whether the grants which, on the advice of the late Secretary of State for the Colonies, the Protectorates in West Africa made to the British Cotton Growing Association are to be continued in the future or not. There was a grant from Sierra Leone of £1,500 a year towards the Association, Lagos gave them £2,000, and Southern Nigeria £3,000 a year. Will they be continued? Does the noble Earl think these grants, which were given on the advice of the late Secretary of State for the Colonies, reasonable or proper ones, and is he prepared to recommend that they should be continued? Again, what has been done with regard to reducing the cost of transit on the railways in West Africa? Has anything at all been decided with regard to the rate of freight on the ships which bring the goods from West Africa to the port of Liverpool?
In alluding to the question of transport and the facilities both with regard to railways and shipping, I am irresistibly drawn to the consideration of a few points brought out very strongly in a Parliamentary Paper entitled "Correspondence relating to Railway Construction in Nigeria" (Cd. 2787). I have no hesitation in referring to this Blue-book, because I informed the noble Earl the other day that in the course of my remarks I should feel it my duty to do so. Every one who is qualified to judge claims that in Northern Nigeria, which is a territory as big as France and Italy put together, it is possible to grow an ample

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supply of cotton, a supply so large that it would adequately supplement the shortage which we anticipate in the crop in the future from America. The natives of Nigeria are accustomed to growing cotton, the master spinners of Lancashire are prepared to sink large sums of money in that territory for cotton growing; but there is one thing lacking, namely, proper transit. Railway construction is in its infancy, and until something is done in this direction the possibilities of growing cotton in this region are speculative and cannot be realised for an in defined period.
With regard to railway construction in Nigeria, there was, as I have said, a Blue-book published on this very important matter; and without desiring to take up too much of your time I should like briefly to refer to two schemes suggested. One scheme is that the heavy, broad-gauge railway, costing £7,000 a mile, should be extended. That would be a very expensive railway, costing several millions to construct, and those who have expressed opinions regarding it say that there is no possibility of its being carried into effect until the Imperial Government have a sum of £10,000,000 or £15,000,000 at their disposal. Therefore, I think we may put the possibility of constructing that railway on one side. But there is an alternative scheme, the one recommended by the present Governor of Nigeria, Sir Frederick Lugard. The scheme involves an outlay of £1,500 a mile, and the total cost of the railway would be about £600,000. This railway would connect up towns like Zaria, Kano, Zungeru, and Lokoja, and the advantages of this scheme would be that you would not be competing against the transport facilities on the Niger, but would be supplementing and accelerating them. Sir Frederick Lugard says—;
"The French are pushing forward their line from Dahomey to Saye with great rapidity, with the avowed intention of capturing the trade of the Haussa States … The necessity for a means of transport for the supply of garrisons and administrative staff at once cheaper and more certain than existing methods, is very urgent."
I now come to a passage in the Report of Sir Frederick Lugard to which I attach very great importance. Sir Frederick says—;
"The Government of Northern Nigeria will have already spent enormous sums in archaic
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methods of transport, and should a difficulty with France overtake us in the interval we should certainly he unable to maintain our position in the northern states. I have naturally a keen desire to see this country self-supporting, to decrease the huge transport bill, and to increase the revenue-producing exports, r am convinced that the only method of doing this is by I he rapid construction of a light surface line on a two-foot six-inch gauge, connecting the Lower Niger with Kano, or at least with Zaria, which is the central point from which the lines both of commerce and administration diverge."
SIR Frederick further says—;
"There are no serious obstacles by the route selected, and though no precise estimate or cost can be made until after the location survey is complete, it may with tolerable safety be said that it will not exceed £1,570 per mile, or a total of £410,000."
I need not dwell on the great qualities of Sir Frederick Lugard. They are well known to every noble Lord in this House. When I was Under-Secretary at the Colonial Office he enjoyed our complete confidence. We recognised in him not only a great soldier but a great statesman in dealing with natives, and also a great administrator. I am assured that he holds precisely similar views to-day to those expressed in the extract which I have read. He does not take back one single word from the opinion he expressed to Mr. Chamberlain three years ago. What I am anxious to ascertain from the noble Earl the Secretary of State is whether he has had sufficient time to go into this problem of the development of railways in Nigeria.
The noble Earl the other night, at some political banquet which he attended, dwelt eloquently upon the importance of trusting the man on the spot. What I desire to impress upon the noble Earl is that Sir Frederick Lugard might be trusted on this particular occasion. There is no just reason for supposing that the views he has expressed, and which he has had the opportunity of revising after several years, are unsound and, therefore, that they do not deserve every consideration at the hands of His Majesty's Government. I suppose the noble Earl will remind me that this scheme of railway development will cost money, and that the Imperial Government as it is grants £300,000 a year to Nigeria for the administration of that territory, and he will consequently say

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that it is very difficult to increase that grant. I myself dislike calling upon the tax-payer for any fresh sums of money, and I certainly dislike advising or counselling it when the Party in power is the one to which noble Lords opposite belong, because we know, if there is any deficiency in the Imperial Budget, on which portion of his Majesty's population the making good of that deficiency will fall. At the same time I wish to impress on the noble Earl that we are now spending £300,000 a year as an Imperial grant on Nigeria, and that the money which the taxpayers now give for the administration of that country is totally unproductive. There is not the slightest possibility or chance that this money can ever be in any way productive; it is a dead loss. What I desire to urge is that instead of spending £300,000 a year with no chance of ever getting any return, it would be more economical, both from an Imperial and also from a local point of view, that the grant should be increased to, say, £425,000 a year, adding to the grant already given the £125,000 a year which Sir Frederick Lugard requires for the construction of his railway for a period of four years. You could either make your grant in that manner, or it would be possible to raise the full amount and charge the interest thereof to the Imperial grant which is given every year. That is a matter, however, on which I do not desire to express an opinion, as it is one for financial experts; but the important point is that it would be cheaper in the long run to add to the present grant and construct the railways. You would then know that in the course of a few years there would be some return for the expenditure you had been called upon to make.
If you construct the railway which Sir Frederick Lugard suggests, you in the first place open up the country. Its' taxable resources will multiply, and consequently your revenue will increase. You will also reduce the cost of sending provisions to outlying military posts. These provisions have now to be carried on the heads of natives over thousands of miles. The cost of that will be reduced, according to Sir Frederick Lugard, by £30,000, and you will call into being the great cotton fields which undoubtedly
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exist there, in which Lancashire is willing to invest large sums of money, and the produce of which will help to remunerate the native and make his position more comfortable and his lot more contented. You will also be enabled to bring the raw material into the Liverpool market at a price less than the average price of cotton for the last ten years.
I hope the noble Earl will see fit to give-me an answer on the points which I have ventured to bring to his notice. I do not mean a cursory and official answer, but one based upon a careful study of this question. If he will do that I can assure him that it will not only give considerable pleasure to many noble Lords in this House, but that everyone in Lancashire who is deeply concerned in the production of the raw material of cotton will be greatly relieved to see that the noble Earl has given his careful attention to this very important matter. I hope he does not think that I have brought forward this subject out of a feeling of idle curiosity or senseless inquisitiveness. I have done it because I know, from considerable experience among operatives and those connected with the cotton trade in Lancashire, that they are vitally interested in the future welfare of their industry, and that they do look to His Majesty's present advisers to give them support and consideration in the work they are now carrying out. When the noble Earl reflects how indissolubly this industry is connected with many similar industries in this country, I think he will realise that it is of the greatest importance that the Government should give every consideration and support to-the efforts which are now being made to place it for all time on a permanent basis.
THE EARL or SCARBOROUGH: My Lords, before the noble Earl replies to the questions which have been put to him by my noble friend, perhaps I may be allowed to say a few words on the subject of the development of railways in Northern Nigeria, to which my noble friend directed the latter part of his remarks. For a number of years prior to 1900, when that country was taken over by the Crown, I was associated with Nigeria from an administrative point of view, and I have been associated with it also from the point of view of its

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commercial development; and, although I agree that it may be a wise policy for the Imperial Government to spend money in building railways in that country in order to hasten development for the sake of posterity, in my humble opinion I do not think there is any justification for it at present from the trade point of view, even if it were possible for the Protectorate to be called upon to pay any of the cost either of construction or maintenance.
If there was a sudden discovery of valuable minerals on a large scale that would, of course, alter the complexion of affairs a great deal, but the condition of Northern Nigeria to-day is such that I can only describe it as poverty stricken and to a large extent depopulated. Years of slave raiding have devastated and practically laid waste the country, and, moreover, it suffers periodically from famine, no doubt partly due to the perpetual state of unrest in which the people exist. Nevertheless, I am fully convinced that the country has great future possibilities, but it is necessary for the population to double or treble itself before its resources can be properly developed. Your Lordships will remember that this country has been effectively occupied for barely five years. It needs rest and time, and, if I may venture to say so, a little less feverish haste in regard to the pursuit of revenue and very delicate handling as regards internal taxation.
The noble Duke referred to the subject of cotton growing in Northern Nigeria. It is a subject in which he takes a deep interest, and I think that sooner or later Lancashire will be very grateful to him for it. But before thinking about spending money on heavy railways for bringing down cotton from the interior of the country, which for years to come may not grow cheaply enough to pay the cost of carriage, we should see what could be done with the thousands of acres of suitable land bordering on the River Niger, both in Northern and Southern Nigeria, which could be developed for the purpose of cotton growing. The British Cotton Growing Association have made an excellent start in this direction. The natives have been encouraged in every way possible to grow cotton
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beyond their own requirements in order to export home, so that, although I do not altogether agree with my noble friend as regards railway development from the point of view of trade being urgent at the present time, I do thoroughly agree with him on other grounds.
I am convinced that a rapidly-constructed light railway is urgently required in Northern Nigeria for strategical purposes; that is to say, for internal defence, for movement of troops, and for economy of administration. I think myself that such construction would be a very wise insurance from the point of view of the British taxpayer. The position of Northern Nigeria to-day is not unlike the position of the equatorial provinces of Egypt at the time of the Mahdi. We have residents with small garrisons scattered all over the country, a country, as the noble Duke said, as large as France and Italy put together, in the midst of a fanatical population and with absolutely no means of communication. I know of only one road in the whole of Northern Nigeria on which wheel transport can be used, and that only in the dry season. I happened to be in that country during the recent rising. Fortunately it was only local, but it afforded an instance of what may happen on a larger scale any day. The nearest reinforcements had to walk over 300 miles to reach the scene of the rising and the bulk of the troops at Sir Frederick Lugard's command were over 600 miles distant. These distances were covered in remarkably short time, but I think your Lordships will appreciate the dangers of such delay in emergencies of this kind.
I assume that His Majesty's Government must be alive to the position of affairs which I have attempted to describe. I am confident that Sir Frederick Lugard—;and by the way, His Majesty's Government have no more able and experienced administrator in their service—;must have pointed out clearly the situation. I do venture to urge on the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies the great risk this country is running in that corner of the Empire until rapid means of communication are established such as a system of light

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railways would supply, and I sincerely hope that this urgent need of the Protectorate of Northern Nigeria will receive their urgent consideration.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ELGIN): My Lords, I did not expect any apology from the noble Duke for bringing this matter before the House, and my only regret is that he thought it necessary in his opening remarks to introduce what I cannot help thinking was rather an unnecessarily discordant note in his reference to what he characterised as "extreme economic views" in the Party to which I have the honour to belong. We are dealing to-day with a specific question in regard to the work of the British Cotton Growing Association. I have before me the first annual report of that association, and I find from it that they express their obligation to the noble Duke for the great assistance which he, on behalf of the Colonial Office, gave to the work of the Association when he was Under-Secretary. I venture to think that it is highly probable that in the next report the Association will be able to pay a similar compliment to the noble Duke's relative who has succeeded him in the office he then held.
So far as the work of this association is concerned, I cannot help thinking that there is no possible reason for difference of opinion between the two sides of the House. We admit quite as fully as noble Lords opposite the necessity of providing larger supplies for our great cotton industry, and I sec no reason whatever why we on this side of the House should not also as cordially as noble Lords opposite desire to find those supplies within the British Empire. These are the objects which the British Cotton Growing Association, as I understand, were formed to promote, and which the noble Duke, while he was at the Colonial Office, helped them in promoting; and so far as I am concerned, understood in that way, I am quite prepared to adopt the policy of my predecessors and assist the British Cotton Growing Association in the same way and to the same extent, and do more, if possible, than they did.
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At home, under the noble Duke's auspices, conferences were held monthly at the Colonial Office. Those conferences are being continued with Mr. Churchill's assistance. In the Colonies they did all they could, I have no doubt, to encourage the Colonial Government to assist in the same work, and those methods we also are pursuing. I have had the opportunity of meeting lately several Governors who have returned from the Colonies, and one of the first questions I put to them was as to how the work in the direction of promoting the growing of cotton was progressing in any case in which that question would apply. There are many parts of the British Empire in which there are tracts suitable for the growth of cotton. The noble Duke referred especially to two, the West Indies and West Africa, which have, no doubt, attracted most attention.
In regard to the West Indies, the noble Duke knows very well what the Colonial Office have done and are still doing. They have a Department of Agriculture in the West Indies under Sir D. Morris, who has done everything in his power to induce the planters to take up the growing of cotton, to bring in seed from the United States, and to attend to the proper cultivation of the crops, and the results have been satisfactory. I ought not to omit to mention, because I wish to do full justice to the association, that they co-operated by making arrangements for the provision of machinery, and thereby rendered it easy for those in the Colonies to take up the industry. The result in the West Indies has been satisfactory. I do not think the noble Duke quoted the figures, but the number of bales in 1902 was 680, and in 1905 the number was 5,000, and their value £150,000. Besides that, the quality was excellent, and I find that the West Indian cotton sold at from 2d. to yd. above the best American cotton. Therefore I think the Colonial Office have done everything possible to help forward the growth of cotton in the West Indies.
Then I come to West Africa. The noble Duke asked me whether we were going to continue the grants. We have no intention whatever of throwing any

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obstacles in the way. The grants depend to some extent on the action of the local governments, but I have no reason to suppose they wish to withdraw them, and we shall certainly do everything we can to support their continuance. I do not think we can at present say with any exactitude what the results are in that part of the world. They are a good deal in the future; but I will quote one figure to show a progress very similar to that of the West Indies. I find that in Lagos the increase in the number of bales since 1902 has been from 250 bales to 5,000 bales.
I should like to remind the noble Duke of another sphere in which we have not been inactive, and which I do not think he referred to. I do not know if many of your Lordships have made acquaintance with the Scientific Department of the Imperial Institute, but I can say that if anyone would pay even a hurried visit to that institution he would find that investigations are going on there into many subjects which bear upon the commercial future of the Colonies, investigations into minerals and other products, and more especially, under the direction, I think, of the Government to which the noble Duke belonged, into the question of cotton growing. The work of the Scientific Department certainly confirms the view of the value of West Africa, and perhaps I should say especially of Northern Nigeria, in this matter. I find in the Report of the British Cotton Growing Association that it is said that their representatives give the most enthusiastic reports about the capabilities of the country, and one gentleman stated that some of the districts had the best cotton growing land he had ever seen.
I also read in the report that Northern Nigeria has a population of over 10,000,000 and an area of 323,000 square miles, which is equal to one-half of the cotton-producing States of North America. I think the experts in the Scientific Department entirely agree in their estimate of the great future, with regard to cotton cultivation, that is before Northern Nigeria. They think that the climate there is exceedingly suitable, and it is to be remembered that the cultivation of
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cotton is no new thing, but has been carried on there for generations. The sample at present, I understand, is not of the highest, but it is believed that, by careful cultivation, this may be easily remedied. I hope I have said enough to show the noble Duke that I am not unsympathetic with regard to the work of the Cotton Growing Association.
I pass now to the question of communications in West Africa, I am not prepared to deal with rates of railways or freights of ships. There was nothing in the noble Duke's question which gave me any idea that information on that matter would be asked, and I would prefer to treat it as a separate matter. With regard to railways, however, there is just one reservation which I think I ought to make, and it is that I cannot accept any responsibility in the meantime as to the way in which any proposals ought to be dealt with from the point of view of finance. They have not reached a shape yet in which they could be put before the Department of the Government which is responsible in these matters, and it would not be proper for me to enter into a discussion until my colleagues who are responsible in that respect have had the proposals before them and given their opinion. But I do not quite agree with the noble Duke that nothing has been done since 1903.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: The noble Earl must have misunderstood me. I did not say that nothing had been done since 1903. I stated that the quotation which I read from the despatch of Sir Frederick Lugard was dated 1903.
THE EARL OF ELGIN: Since 1903 there has been a survey, which was gone into at great length under experienced engineers. I will refer to that later. I cannot, as I say, pledge myself to a specific plan or enter into the question of finance, but I do not see why I should be debarred from giving my opinion frankly on the Papers before me. In dealing with railways, as the noble Marquess opposite will remember from his Indian experience, as I do from mine, we always at once come into conflict between

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State construction and construction by private enterprise. Indian experience has gone in both directions, but I think the accepted view there now is—;at least it v, as when I came away—;that on the whole the best thing for the country is that the ownership of the lines should be in the hands of the Government, but the working of them in the hands of companies. It is sometimes difficult to bring that about, but if we look to private enterprise in a matter of this kind we have, of course, either to support it by some form of guarantee, of which we have had grievous experience, or we must support it, as has been done pretty frequently in other parts of Africa lately, by land grants, to which also there are considerable objections.
In dealing with railway communication in this part of West Africa I think it is generally agreed that eventually there will have to be two main lines, one in the eastern part of the territory and one in the western. We need not discuss the one in the eastern part at present, as the country is not ready for it, but I may mention that it would have one great advantage—;namely, that it would lead down to one of the best possible harbours at Old Calabar. With regard to the western system there is not quite the same advantage. The natural port for a main line opening out the country from the coast to the west would be Lagos, but there is this difficulty with regard to the port of Lagos, that it has a bar which necessitates transhipment of goods. Steamers cannot go within it. Works to get over the difficulty in the ordinary way by running out moles would cost a very large sum of money and would take much time. But it has been suggested, and we are on the point, I hope, of agreeing to the project, that we should try the effect of what is called sand pump suction dredging, and it is hoped by that means the bar may be removed at very much less cost and in much less time.
An alternative is to carry the line to a point lower down in Southern Nigeria at Warri or Sapele, but the difficulty there is that there is no large town as at Lagos, and there is considerable doubt as to the healthiness of the situation. The arguments against
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making a new port at Warri or Sapele were well summed up by Sir Frederick Lugard in the following passage—;
"Were the construction of the railway from the coast under discussion ab initio, there would, doubtless, be strong arguments for the selection of a port on which little expenditure would be needed, such as Warri or Sapele, where there is no bar, and ocean-going vessels can find sufficient water at ail times. But even in that case it would have to be-considered whether these ports were sufficiently healthy, whether they afforded sufficient room for the expansion of a large township, and it would have to be noted that the railway would not run through a country so densely populated, or through so industrious a population as in the Lagos Protectorate, and that, instead of starting from a great trade centre like Lagos, everything would have to be created de novo at its sea port."
In that view I humbly concur. Granted that Lagos is to be the port, subject to certain details, there is not much difference ence of opinion as to the general route which would be followed up to the Niger and across the Niger to Zaria and Kano.
I come then to the proposal specifically referred to by the noble Duke which was made by Sir Frederick Lugard in 1903, and I am sure that noble Lords will believe, from the reference to that distinguished officer which I made, that I have the greatest respect for his opinion as the man on the spot. In this connection I should like to be allowed to refer in one word to a report-which I understand has been current that Sir Frederick Lugard had been recalled. I think that is an extraordinary idea to have got abroad. As a matter of fact, it is entirely and absolutely without foundation. I may tell your Lordships exactly what has happened. I ascertained that for certain reasons Sir Frederick Lugard would like to come home. I was very anxious to see him in order to have an opportunity of considering with him the problems of this region, and, after all, it is a very good thing to have a personal acquaintance with the man on the spot. I therefore suggested to Sir Frederick Lugard that he should have special leave of three months during this summer in order to enable him to come home.
I wish to treat this proposal of Sir Frederick Lugard with all possible respect, but I would ask noble Lords to consider what is meant by laying down light

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railways and laying them down rapidly. I can understand light railways of the kind suggested being exceedingly useful in dealing with prairie country or a veldt, where you can lay the sleepers and the rails practically on the ground. I can understand a light railway also being essential when you have to deal with very mountainous country, and I realise that a light railway would be advisable where one had to look, forward to small traffic. But a light railway is not the most expedient or the most economical mode of construction where there are considerable works required; and in this case, since Sir Frederick Lugard's proposal was made, we have had a survey, to which the distinguished name of Sir Benjamin Baker is attached, and we find that he estimates that a 2 feet 6 inch temporary railway would cost £1,700,000, and not £562,000 as was estimated.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: What page in the Blue-book are you quoting from?
THE EARL OF ELGIN: Page 135. A 3 feet inch standard gauge railway would, it is estimated, cost £2,300,000, a difference of £600,000, which, though considerable, is not excessive. I would like to point out, in passing, that the noble Duke spoke of the Lagos railway as a heavy railway. The Lagos railway is a 3 feet 6 inch railway, but it is not of a heavy type. I do not suppose that Sir Frederick Lugard has had any special training in railway surveying, and so, with all respect to him, I think I am justified in preferring the estimate put before us by the regular consulting engineers, and in thinking that it might not be an economic process to lay down a temporary 2 feet 6 inch line in place of carrying on the 3 feet 6 inch gauge, if that is at all possible.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: SIR Frederick Lugard was supported in his views by Mr. Eaglesome, a very distinguished engineer, who, although he cannot, of course, be compared with Sir Benjamin Baker, is undoubtedly an expert and a gentleman in whose opinion we can place some confidence.
THE EARL OF ELGIN: I do not wish to say anything about Mr. Eaglesome, of whom I have no personal knowledge, but it is stated in the Papers that he had had some experience in India in a somewhat subordinate capacity. There is one other matter with regard to this temporary 2 feet 6 inch line to which I would like to call attention. It is that by constructing it we should establish or at any rate, run the risk of, another difficulty. The noble Marquess will remember the battle of the gauges. If there is any thing more undesirable than another in the development of a country I am convinced that it is to introduce, if you can possibly avoid it, two systems of gauge.
No doubt, from the point of view of rapidity of construction, Sir Frederick Lugard's proposal has advantages, but his proposal deals only with a line from the upper bank of the Niger to Kano. What would that mean as regards the development of the cotton industry? It would mean that everything would be brought down to the Niger and then be conveyed by the river. If the river were the same at all times of the year that might be a very excellent mode of transit, and I often think that in these days of railways sufficient attention is not paid to the use we might make of rivers. But in this particular instance I think it would be rather a dangerous experiment. The depth of the Niger varies very much, and though for two months in the years ships drawing ten or twelve feet of water could get up to the point at which Sir Frederick Lugard's line would reach the river, for eight months there is a maximum depth of three and a half feet, and for two months it falls to much less. So that unless the cotton trade were very carefully manœuvred to come within two months there would be something like an impasse.
As I have said, I am not speaking of any plan officially adopted. I only wish to respond to the noble Duke by giving him frankly and freely the view I have formed after very carefully reading the Papers. I confess that, from my reading of them, I think the best development of this kind, particularly with a view of reaching the cotton - growing fields of Nigeria—;if we have any faith in the belief that these fields will result in very

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large trade—;would be to push on as rapidly as possible from the base the system of railway already begun. There is, as I have said, no real difference of opinion as to the route, and the line might gradually be pushed on from the point it has reached now to the Niger, crossing the ever, not necessarily in the first place by an expensive bridge, possibly by a steam ferry, and continuing along the route Sir Frederick Lugard has advocated.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOEOUGH: How many years does the noble Earl estimate that would take?
THE EARL OF ELGIN: That is asking me to go into an engineering detail, which I am not able to do. It depends on how much money is provided.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: It has been stated that it will take fifteen years, or more.
THE EARL OF ELGIN: If the noble Duke will further study the Papers he will find that a seven years scheme is drawn out. There is no reason why the thing should not be pushed forward if the money were available and there was real reason for pushing it on at greater speed. No doubt the most economical way would be to push it on in sections from the base. It is true, as has been said in regard to the financial position, that Northern Nigeria has to come to the British Treasury for a large portion of the expenses of the administration of the Protectorate, and for my part I do not hesitate to say that, if this industry has really the possibilities which I for one think it has, a very good argument to put before the Government is that the best way of making this Protectorate self-supporting would be to assist it in obtaining the railway connection without which the large trade we may hope to look forward to cannot be realised.

AUSTRALIAN NAVIGATION COMMISSION.
LORD ELLENBOROUGHrose to ask His Majesty's Government if their atten-
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tion had been called to the "Report of the Federal Commission on the Navigation Bill," a summary of which appeared in The Times of the 26th April, and if they would cause the whole of that Report to be printed, and issued as a Parliamentary Paper; and also to inquire of them if they were in possession of the evidence upon which that Report was based; and, if not, whether they would cable to Australia for a copy of that evidence, so that if thought desirable they could reprint and distribute as a Parliamentary Paper such portions of it as were of general and not merely of local interest. The noble Lord said: My Lords, In the summary of the Report as it appeared in The Times of the 26th of April, there are forty-five findings or recommendations, I intend to refer to only the first seven of these, and mean to do so as briefly as possible. I shall, however, take the opportunity of remarking that the Report appears to me to concern the Board of Trade more nearly than the Colonial Office. The first of these findings says that the number of British seamen employed on British ships is declining, and that this is chiefly due to their unfavourable surroundings. Your Lordships will recollect that a great deal of evidence to this effect was lately given before a Departmental Committee of the Board of Trade, which reported in 1903.
The first recommendation of this Commission refers to the housing of the seamen, and recommends that they should be entitled to 120 cubic feet of air space per man. According to Section 210 of Merchant Shipping Act of 1894, 72 cubic feet is the minimum of space for the seaman, and in this confined space he has to keep all his personal property. But according to paragraph 107 of the Regulations for the Army Medical Services a soldier is entitled to 600 cubic feet when in barracks, 500 cubic feet when in huts, and to a great deal more when in hospital. Will your Lordships consider for a moment what 72 cubic feet of space actually means? It is 2 feet broad, 6 feet long, and 6 feet high. This is the seaman's or the fireman's bedroom, dining room, dressing room, his sole living room, and in it he has to keep all his belongings. Surely 120 cubic feet is not too much for these purposes.

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The next recommendation is that this small space should be properly ventilated—;a very humble request. The third suggestion is that bath-rooms supplied with hot water should be available on steamships for engineers, firemen and others, when coming off duty. This may sound luxurious, but it is a necessity of health that men on leaving stoke-hole work should be able to cleanse themselves properly. Goal dust, when mixed with perspiration, grease and oil, cannot be got rid of without hot water. Men should not have to go to the small sleeping places I have referred to while still smothered in dirt. Who wants a chimney sweep coming off work in the dress of his calling as a fellow-passenger in a sleeping-car? Yet the sweep is by far the cleaner of the two, as he is merely a carboniferous creature and has nothing to do with oleaginous matters. A horse coming in from hunting is always given a good rub down, and a stoker is quite as much in need of similar treatment. All the bettor class of steamers have bath rooms already.
The next sections say that the men's quarters should be adequately lighted, that cooks should be certificated, that an improved scale of provisioning should be adopted, and that ships' victualling bills should be liable to examination. The Report also states that—;
"To obtain good work it has always been found profitable by shrewd employers to supply good food to their employees."
An owner gets back the value of his money if he gives plenty of oats to his hard-worked horses. Most shipowners undoubtedly act with justice towards their men, but those who think that a new Merchant Shipping Act is unnecessary should read some of the evidence given in the Bankruptcy Courts as to the manner in which both officers and men are occasionally treated by shipowners.
The last suggestion to which I shall call attention is that men should be entitled to two-thirds of their wages on touching at any port. I have been informed that quite recently seamen belonging to thirteen of our principal ports have petitioned the Board of Trade to the effect that one-half of their wages may be made payable monthly as contemplated by Parliament in 1880, and in
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Section 141 of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894. I should like to see the substance of all these recommendations accepted by the Board of Trade and by Parliament as regards our own merchant shipping.
With reference to the rest of the Report, some of it concerns only Australia. It contains also several suggestions which, if acted upon, would, I think, put unnecessary burdens on shipowners and tend to throw our ships and men out of employment. But I consider that I have now said enough to show that this Report is worth obtaining and reprinting. With reference to the evidence upon which it is based, as I have not yet seen it I do not know how bulky it may be, but from the conclusions of the Commission I think it certain that some portions of it must be of interest to those concerned with the shipping of this country, and that it is desirable that some of it should be reprinted for their use and for the information of Members of both Houses. If neither the Colonial Office nor the Board of Trade are yet in possession' of copies of this Report and evidence, I hope that the Government will cable for them, so that they may arrive in time to be read by Members of both Houses who take an interest in the Merchant Shipping Bill which is now being discussed in another place.
The EARL of ELGIN: My Lords, I have received the report of the Commission appointed by the Grovernor-General of Australia to examine into and report upon the Navigation Bill, but I have not yet received the appendices or the evidence. I will telegraph for copies of these documents, and I propose when the Papers are completed to place a copy of them in the library of the House. I cannot say at present whether it will be necessary to reprint the whole of them as a Parliamentary Paper, but I will give consideration to that matter when the Papers reach me. With regard to the observations which the noble Lord has made I am not quite sure, as they to a large extent deal with matters that are contained in a Bill now before the other House, that they were strictly in order. But I would like to point out that in the first paragraph of the

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Report it is stated that in view of the suggestion of the Imperial Government that delegates from Australia and New Zealand should attend a conference to be held in London at which the whole question of navigation as it affects the Empire might be discussed, its revision has been postponed for the present; and I am informed that in principle the Board of Trade is in substantial agreement with most of the recommendations and findings of the Commission, and that some of them merely supplement proposals for legislation now before the Imperial Parliament. Should the Australian Government agree to the conference proposed by the Imperial Government, the Board of Trade will have an opportunity of considering further what result legislation on the lines of the recommendations of the Commission would have on the shipping and commerce of this country.

St. HELENA GARRISON.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I rise to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government are aware of the great loss that will be entailed on the islanders of St. Helena through the withdrawal of the garrison from that place, and whether they propose to pay any compensation or assist the inhabitants in any other way.
As your Lordships know, it has been decided by the Army Council that the garrison shall be withdrawn from St. Helena. Last year the infantry were recalled from the island, and we learnt from a reply to a question in the House of Commons last week that the artillery and engineers are to be withdrawn next October. I was for nearly fifteen months stationed at St. Helena with my battalion during the Boer War, and I had good opportunities of seeing the conditions under which these people live. Your Lordships know the peculiar position of St. Helena and its isolated situation. You have heard of its inhospitable rocks and bare coast, but there are fertile valleys in the island where it is possible to grow vegetables and fruit, and also stretches of rough grass land where a certain number of cattle can be reared. In the old days, when this island was in the possession of
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the East India Company—;in the days o slavery and Chinese labour—;it was very prosperous, and the Governor was in receipt of a very large sum of money. It was also an important port of call for ships on their way to India and to South Africa. A large amount of fruit and vegetables were grown there as well as coffee of rich quality.
Now, my Lords, this has all changed. The market for this produce has gone, and the troops quartered on the island constitute the only market remaining. There are practically no exports at all, and when the troops are withdrawn from the island the market will have gone and desolation will be the result. I think the state of that island may then be very well described, as another place has so aptly been, as an island where the inhabitants earn a precarious living by taking in each other's washing. In support of my remarks I should like to read a letter I received not very long ago from one of the colonists on the Island. He writes—;
"What news we have is only by cable, and the whole of the inhabitants are in sad distress. The infantry were withdrawn a year ago, and that was a sad blow to the place. If the artillery are also to go it simply means ruin to the whole community. One is afraid to think what will happen. The labourers will starve, as those who employ labour now will not be in a position to do this if this scheme is carried out, as the employers will scarcely be able to exist themselves. The only island industry is raising stock and agricultural produce for the troops, the occasional vessel of war and sailing ship calling for supplies being things of the past. The town has lately been thoroughly drained by the Colonial Government, but the householders have to refund the money, the loan being spread over a number of years. Many people will consequently lose their property, this being the penalty of non-payment. If St. Helena is of value in time of war the Imperial Government should help us in time of peace in the peculiar circumstances in which we are situated."
I think this letter may well be described as a voice from St. Helena. It is the cry of people in distress, and on those grounds I have ventured to bring this question to your Lordships' notice. The debt referred to was incurred through troops and prisoners of war being quartered on the island. It was found that the drainage of the town was in such an unsatisfactory state that a large sum of money had to be spent, and I think this was done largely by the order of

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the Colonial Government. Churches and schools will also become vacant and useless. There is a Bishop of St. Helena and also a cathedral, besides two other churches. There is a Roman Catholic priest and a chapel. This priest is Consul for several foreign nations, as he is the only one who understands these various languages. He will have to leave the island, as there are only one or two inhabitants who are Roman Catholics. The reason for his being there was purely to meet the requirements of the Roman Catholics among the garrison.
I hope the noble Earl will be able to inform the House in what way and to what extent he is able to help this Colony. I bring this question forward rather as a request for charity from the Government, and I hope the noble Earl will be able to tell your Lordships that His Majesty's Government are prepared to render some assistance, otherwise these poor people, with ruin staring them in the face, will sink in misery and distress.
THE EARL OF ELGIN: My Lords, I confess that I have some sympathy with St. Helena. The garrison of St. Helena has an historical interest for us all, and I regret that the necessities of the British Empire have compelled its withdrawal at this moment. But, after all, the House must remember that it is only 100 men who are withdrawn, and I find it a little difficult to believe that ruin and destruction should seize upon the whole island in consequence of that withdrawal. The Government have given some practical evidence of their compassion, for if the decision of the Army Council had been rigorously carried out the garrison would have left already, but we thought that that would be dealing rather hardly with the islanders, and that they ought to have six months to make arrangements. I am afraid I cannot hold out any hope that we shall be able to find money to compensate the islanders. I am told that there is no precedent for paying compensation to individuals in a case of this kind. In regard to the island itself, of course it will be in the ordinary position of any Crown Colony. At present it has a surplus on its revenue—;a sign of some prosperity, I hope—;but
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if the revenue did not prove to be sufficient, I suppose the island would come upon the Imperial Government, like other Crown Colonies, for a grant in aid. If that happens, the British Treasury, which profits by the withdrawal of the garrison, will have to pay something by way of a grant in aid to the island. But that, of course, is a matter of public administration. So far as the inhabitants are concerned, though I am in sympathy with them, I am afraid I can hold out no hopes of compensation being found for them.

GREAT BRITAIN AND THE CONGO STATE.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, before the House adjourns, I wish to ask the noble Lord who represents the Foreign Office a Question of which I have given him private notice. It is stated in the newspapers to-day, apparently with authority, that a very important arrangement has been concluded between the Congo State and His Majesty's Government. We should be glad, I think, if the noble Lord could tell us whether that statement is correct and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to lay any Papers on the Table with regard to it.
THE UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord FITZMAURICE): My Lords, it is the case that yesterday a treaty was signed on behalf of this country by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and on behalf of the Congo State by Baron van Eetvelde, who had come over here for the purpose. The statement which has appeared in regard to it is substantially correct. As, however, the matters referred to involve a great amount of complicated geographical detail, I am sure the noble Marquess will agree with me that it would not be desirable that I should attempt to make any statement with regard to the contents of the treaty at this moment. The House will all the more readily accept that from me when I announce that I shall lay Papers almost immediately—;certainly not later than Monday next.
House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.