Lords Sitting of 7 May 1906

Preamble
Several Lords took the Oath.
The Marquess of Anglesey sat first in Parliament after the death of his kinsman.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Lord Tredegar's Supplemental Estate Bill [H.L.]. Judges' report received; Bill presented, and read 1a.
Standing Orders Committee—;Repor from, that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the petitions for Bills by the Ritz Hotel Limited; John Cæsar Crellin; ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bills.
And that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Sutton District Water Bill ought to be dispensed with. Read, and agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—; Macclesfield and District Tramways; Midland Railway.
And also the Certificate that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the petition for additional provision in the following Bill:—;Scottish Union and National Insurance [H.L.].
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Great Northern (Ireland) and Midland Railways Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with amendments.
Great Western and Rhymney Railway Companies Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That it is not
914
expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Manchester Churches Bill [H.L.], Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Bill [H.L.]; Mullingar, Kells, and Drogheda Railway Bill [H.L.]; Folkestone and District Electricity Supply Bill [H.L.]; Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Kent Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Folkestone, Sandgate, and Hythe Tramways (No. 1.) Bill [H.L.]; Folkestone, Sandgate, and Hythe Tramways (No. 2.) Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Willoughby de Broke and the Lord Dunboyne be proposed to the House as members of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Earl of Mayo and the Viscount Falmouth; read, and agreed to.
Wallasey Tramways and Improvements Bill [H.L.], Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Cathcart District Railway (Superfluous Lands) Order Confirmation Bill; North Berwick Corporation Order Confirmation Bill, Brought from the Commons.
Cathcart District Railway (Superfluous Lands) Order Confirmation Bill, (No. 73.); North Berwick Corporation Order Confirmation Bill (No. 74.) Read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Hamilton of Dalzell), and reported from the Committee.

PETITIONS.

  EDUCATION.
  Petitions in favour of denominational religious teaching in schools:—;
  (1). Of teachers in schools at Phillack—; Salmesbury—;St. Peter's—;and Ashton-under-Lyne; (2). Of parents and guardians of children at Salmesbury—;and Ashton-under-Lyne (2).
  Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  General Report by the Chief Inspector of the Northern Division of Scotland, for the year, 1905.
  ROYAL COLLEGE OF SCIENCE.
  Final Report of the Departmental Committee on the Royal College of Science, etc. Vol. II. Minutes of Evidence, Appendices (II.-XIII.), and Index.
  Correspondence relating to native disturbances in Natal.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES)
  No. 3573. Egypt (Port Said and Suez).
  No. 3574. Russia (Moscow).
  No. 3575. Russia (Finland).
  No. 3576. China (Swatow).
  No. 3577. Turkey (Trebizond).
  No. 3578. China (Hankow).

  ARMY (MILITARY PRISONS).
  Report on the discipline and management of the military prisons, 1905.
  RAILWAY RETURNS.
  Return relating to the railways of the United Kingdom for the year 1905. Preliminary statement.
  EDUCATION COMMISSIONERS (IRELAND).
  Annual Report for the year 1905.
  Sixty-seventh Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records.
  RAILWAY RATES (PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT).
  Departmental Committee appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to inquire into and report whether preferential treatment is given by the railway companies in Great Britain to foreign and colonial, as compared with home, farm, dairy, and market garden produce. Report; Minutes of evidence, with appendices and index.
  INTERNATIONAL AGRICULTURAL INSTITUTE.
  Correspondence relative to the establishment of an international agricultural institute, with the Report of the British delegates and the Minutes of the proceedings at the International Conference on agriculture at Rome.

  LICENSING STATISTICS.
  Statistics as to the operation and administration of the laws relating to the sale of intoxicating liquors, for the year 1905.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY OF DURHAM).
  Order made by the council of the county of Durham altering certain polling districts in the Chester-le-Street parliamentary division of the county.
  SHOP HOURS ACT, 1904 (RHONDDA URBAN DISTRICT).
  Order made by the urban district council of Rhondda, confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, fixing the hours of closing for certain shops within the district.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Mintue, dated 1st May, 1906, declaring British Central Africa, the East Africa Protectorate, Northern Nigeria, the Somaliland Protectorate, Southern Nigeria, and Uganda to be unhealthy places for the purpose of the Superannuation Acts, 1859 and 1876.
  Treasury Minute, dated 1st May, 1906, granting a retired allowance to Mr. William Pearson, Staff Clerk, War Office.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT.
  University Court Ordinance, No. XIV. (Edinburgh No. 4) Institution of Degrees in Veterinary Medicine and Surgery and relative regulations. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 70.)
  IMPORTS INTO CANADA.
  Return respecting. Laid before the House (pursuant to Order of the 30th of March last), and to be printed. (No. 71.)
  STANDING COMMITTEE.
  Report from the Committee of Selection for the Standing Committee, that they have added the Earl Carrington to the Standing Committee; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  COLONIAL MARRIAGES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to declare the law with respect to a marriage between a man and his deceased wife's sister domiciled in part of the British Possessions where such a marriage is legal. Was presented by the Lord Elgin (E. Elgin and Kincardine); read 1a; to be printed, and to be read 2a on Tuesday the 15th instant. (No.75.)
MATRIMONIAL CAUSES ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  EXTRADITION BILL [H.L.]
  Orders of the Day for the Second Reading read, and discharged.
  POST OFFICE (MONEY ORDERS) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
  SEED POTATOES SUPPLY (IRELAND) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  TURKEY AND EGYPT.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is able to give the House any additional information in regard to the Turco-Egyptian frontier.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord FITZMAUHICE): My Lords, I am in a position to give to your Lordships, who I know desire to have it as soon as possible, some further information with regard to the situation affecting the
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  Turco-Egyptian frontier in continuation the statement which I made a few days ago. The British Ambassador at Constantinople presented a Note to the Porte on Thursday last inviting the Sultan to agree to the demarcation by Great Britain and Turkey of the line from El Rafah to the head of the Gulf of Akabah on the basis of the telegram from the Grand Vizier to the Khedive of April 8, 1892, and pending a settlement to withdraw his troops from Tabah.
  I venture here to give a short summary of the negotiations which have taken place. Early in the year Egyptian troops were sent in the ordinary course to occupy certain posts in the interior of the Sinai peninsula, including Tabah on the western coast of the Gulf of Akabah. On arrival at the latter post it was found that 150 Turkish troops were already in occupation. His Majesty's Government protested against the occupation by the Turks of Tabah, a place unquestionably within the Sinai peninsula, and pointed out to the Porte that if any doubt existed as to the frontier line a joint Delimitation Commission was the best solution of the question. On February 13 Lord Cromer reported that the Turkish commandant at Akabah was demanding the withdrawal of the Egyptian troops from the Faroun Island, an island in the northern part of the Gulf of Akabah. His Majesty's Ship "Diana" was instructed to proceed to Faroun to protect the Egyptian post there.
  After further representations the Sultan decided to send two officers from Constantinople to inquire into the matter, and they left for Egypt on February 20th. It was hoped the Turkish Commissioners would discuss the matter, or form part of a Joint Commission of Delimitation. The Turkish Commissioners, however, left Cairo and proceeded to Beirut without having communicated with the Egyptian Government, the Khedive, or Lord Cromer. On March 21st the Turkish Ambassador made a communication to the effect that as Tabah was a dependency of Akabah no objection could naturally be made to the presence there of Turkish troops, and that it was

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  consequently unnecessary to send officials from Egypt to institute an inquiry into the question. The Sultan then authorised Mukhtar Pasha to negotiate with the Government of Egypt, and His Majesty's Government agreed to the negotiations taking place at Cairo.
  Mukhtar Pasha had an interview with the Khedive, and demanded on behalf of his Government that the boundary of the Sinai peninsula should run from El Rafah to Suez and from Suez to Akabah. The Khedive, in reply to these representations, suggested that the telegram of April 8th, 1892, should be taken as the basis of a settlement, that the line should run from El Rafah to Akabah, joining the coast three miles west of Fort Akabah, and that the remainder of the line of frontier should be determined by competent surveyors. The Grand Vizier's reply to the Khedive was to the effect that the Gulf of Akabah and the Sinai peninsula were outside the territory defined in the Imperial Firman, that the telegram of April 8th, 1892, only referred to the western side of the Sinai peninsula, that the interpretation of that telegram was a matter which only concerned the Imperial Ottoman Government, that Akabah had been adopted as the headquarters of the Mutessariflek of Akabah, and the hope was expressed that no occasion would be afforded for interference by any other Power
  The delay, the extent of the demands which have been put forward by the Porte, and the tone and character of the Turkish communications to the Khedive have made it impossible to defer a settlement indefinitely, and that is why we are now pressing our original demand for a joint delimitation. I think I may claim on behalf of His Majesty's Government that they have shown great patience and moderation; but the latest developments of the Turkish demands if admitted would place Turkey in a position which would be a real danger not only to the freedom of the Suez Canal, but also to the liberties of Egypt and of the Khedivial dynasty. His Majesty's Government cannot be indifferent to such issues, and the importance of them makes it necessary that we should press
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  for a settlement on the lines of the frontier of Egypt as it has existed undisputed and undisturbed from a period many years previous to British occupation.
  The Note to which I have referred was drawn up before the violation of Egyptian territory at El Rafah. I mentioned on Tuesday that His Majesty's Ship "Minerva" had been sent to El Arish to ascertain whether the boundary pillars at El Rafah had actually been disturbed, and I regret to say that the report of the removal of the pillars has been confirmed by the captain of the "Minerva"; but as the Grand Vizier informed Sir N. O'Connor that a Commission would be sent to replace the pillars had they been disturbed, it does not appear necessary to make any representation on the subject at present. I need hardly remind your Lordships that the prime determining cause of the occupation in 1882 was that the condition of unrest in that country threatened danger to the Suez Canal, and it is not to be supposed that, having thus intervened to protect the Canal from danger coming principally from the western side, we shall now, twenty-four years after those events, be indifferent to similar dangers arising on the eastern side of the waterway.

  PUBLIC TRUSTEE BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  [The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair].
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2:—;
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord LOREBUBN)said this Bill dealt with a very difficult subject, and he had received a variety of communications in regard to it. He had endeavoured to adopt those suggestions which seemed desirable in the form of the Amendments which appeared in his name on the Paper. The first Amendment, which he now moved, would have this effect, that the public trustee would not undertake any trust under a deed of arrangement for the benefit of creditors, nor the administration of any insolvent estate.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 2, line 13, after the word 'Act' to insert the words 'nor any trust under a deed of arrangement for the benefit of creditors, nor the administration of any insolvent estate.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3:—;
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid the object of his Amendment was to have some formal record without which the estate was not to vest in the public trustee.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 2, line 29, after the word 'undertaking' to insert the words 'declaration in writing signed and sealed by him.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor,)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORexplained that sub-section (3) provided that for the purposes of the administration of small estates the public trustee might exercise such of the powers and authorities of the High Court as might be conferred on him by rules under this Bill. The object of his Amendment was to authorise the authority who made the rules—;the Lord Chancellor—; to bestow those powers subject to such conditions as he might think right to impose. It was thought that some of the powers and authorities of the High Court which were to be conferred on the public trustee should not be so conferred without safeguards against their abuse.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 2, line 38, after the word 'Act' to insert the words 'subject to such conditions as may be imposed by the rules.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4:—;
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid the object of his next Amendment was to
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  provide that the public trustee might be appointed custodian trustee even though there was no vacancy in the number of original trustees.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 3, line 15, to leave out the word 'the' and to insert the words 'subject to rules under this Act the'; and after the word 'such' to insert the words 'and whether or not the number of trustees has been reduced below the original number.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD FABERexplained that the object of his Amendment was to enable trustees under a will, who had appointed the official trustee as custodian trustee, to act with him if they thought fit to do so. He hoped the Lord Chancellor would see his way to accept the insertion of the words proposed.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 3, line 27, after the word 'trustee' to insert the words 'jointly with the other trustees or trustee.'"—;(Lord Faber.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid it was quite obvious that the more interest the old trustees took in the trust the better it would be for everybody concerned. But the noble Lord's Amendment would go further than was anticipated. The sub-section in question provided that where the public trustee was appointed to be custodian trustee of any trust the property subject to the trust, and the right to transfer or call for the transfer of any shares, stock, or securities forming part of the trust property, should by virtue of this Act vest in the custodian trustee. It was now proposed by the noble Lord that if there were any other trustees the property should vest in them jointly. The title and right of the other trustees would depend on something other than this Act, and if the words suggested by the noble Lord were inserted, trustees who might not really be entitled to have the property vested in them at all might have it so vested by virtue of this Act. The danger of accepting the Amendment was that it might have ulterior effects quite beyond what the noble Lord wished. If the noble Lord would confer with him before the next stage of the

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  Bill he would endeavour to meet the substance of his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to amend the proviso that a custodian trustee need not concur in nor perform any act the effect of which might be to vest in him property which might involve a personal liability on him in respect of calls or otherwise. He moved to substitute the word "shall" for "need." It had been pointed out that as the Consolidated Fund was liable to make good all sums required to discharge any liability which the public trustee, if he were a private trustee, would be personally liable to discharge, a custodian trustee should not be allowed to concur in any act the effect of which might expose him to liability.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 4, line 7, to leave out the word 'reed' and insert the word 'shall.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid it was not reasonable to require that the custodian trustee should be obliged to inquire into the legality of every matter in which he was requested to concur, and the object of the new proviso which he now moved was to secure that where a request to concur was made in writing, signed by all the managing trustees and accompanied by a certificate from a duly qualified solicitor, not being a trustee, that the action was within the powers of the trust, the custodian trustee should be exonerated from all consequences of his concurrence. This proviso would conduce to business and give every practical safeguard.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 4, line 10, after the word 'otherwise' to insert as a new proviso the words 'and (b) where a request to concur is made in writing, signed by all the managing trustees, accompanied by a certificate from a duly qualified solicitor not being a trustee that the matter in which the custodian trustee is requested to concur is within the powers of the trust, the custodian trustee shall not be
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  obliged to inquire into the legality of the matter, and shall be exonerated from all consequences of his concurrence if he acts in good faith.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD ASHBOURNEdid not object to the course proposed to be taken by the Lord Chancellor, but was disposed to think that the matter would require close consideration when they saw the Amendment incorporated in the clause. The question at once suggested itself—; What was the good of the custodian trustee if he were bound to consent to all the things he was asked to do by the other trustees, and if he were to be satisfied with the certificate of the solicitor.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid he would be pleased if the matter were looked into. In point of fact, the frauds that had taken place had been largely perpetrated when there was only one trustee, and in secret without the knowledge of an independent solicitor. His Amendment gave a very effective safeguard, although he fully admitted that it did not afford absolutely incontrovertible security against peculation.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid the object of his next Amendment was to provide that the custodian trustee should not be liable if he acted in good faith.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 4, line 28, after the word 'trustee' to insert the words 'if he acts in good faith.'" —;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD FABER,who had given notice to move the deletion of Sub-section 3 of Clause 4, and the insertion of the following new subsection—;
  (3) Any banking or insurance company or other body corporate may, if it consents to act as such, be appointed to be custodian trustee of any trust in the same manner as the public trustee may be so appointed, with power for such company or body corporate to charge and retain or pay out of the trust property by way of remuneration such fees as may be agreed, or in default of agreement fees not exceeding those chargeable by the public trustee as

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  custodian trustee, and the provisions of Subsections 1 and 2 of this clause shall mutatis mutandis apply to such company or other body corporate,
  said that by this Bill those persons who were originally connected with the trust had power to appoint the public trustee as custodian trustee without going through any formality whatever; but, if an original trustee under a will desired to appoint a corporate body or a bank as custodian trustee, it was necessary to go through the formality of applying to the Court. He did not know why a difference should be made between a custodian trustee when he was an official, and a custodian trustee in the shape of a bank or insurance office. Since the Amendment had been put down, however, he had had a conversation with the noble and learned Lord in charge of the Bill. The Lord Chancellor had undertaken to give the matter his attention between this and the Report stage, and in the circumstances he would not move his Amendment.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out Sub-section (4). This subsection provided that the section should apply to trusts whether created before or after the passing of this Act, but should not extend to —;(a) any trust for religious purposes; or (b) any trust which was being administered by or under the Court; or (c) any trust where a judicial trustee had been appointed to be a trustee. The reason for deleting this sub-section was that it was considered preferable that this matter should be settled by Rules. He thought it was clear that where a trust was exclusively for religious or charitable purposes the public trustee ought not to have anything to do with it; but there might well be an estate one-twentieth part of the interest in which was by the will directed to be applied for religious or charitable purposes, and he did not think it would be right to prevent that estate coming under the management of the public trustee. This was a matter which ought to be settled by Rules, which their Lordships would have full opportunity of criticising.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 5, line 18, to leave out Sub-section (4)."—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 5:—;
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid that the clause as it stood provided that the public trustee might by that name be appointed to be trustee of any will or settlement or other instrument creating a trust. He wished to avoid any cavilling on the point, and therefore moved to insert, after "the public trustee may by that name," the words "or any other sufficient description."
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 5, line 26, after the word 'name' to insert the words 'or any other sufficient description.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to amend Sub-section (4). It was, he said, provided that notice of any proposed appointment of the public trustee should, where practicable, be given to all persons beneficially interested. He proposed to insert the words "In the prescribed manner," so as to render the making of Rules compulsory.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 6, line 7, after the word 'given' to insert the words 'in the prescribed manner.'" —;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved a proviso at the end of Sub-section 4, to the effect that a failure to give such notice should not invalidate any appointment made under this section. It was, he said, obvious that disastrous results might happen without some such proviso.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 7, line 14, after the word 'made' to insert the words 'provided that a failure to give any such notice shall not invalidate any appointment made under this section.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGH*LORD ELLENBOROUGH moved that a sub-section be inserted to provide that the public trustee should be appointed as additional trustee on the application of any trustee or beneficiary in any trust in which a solicitor was acting or had acted in the double capacity of solicitor and trustee. He would himself have liked to see it made illegal for any person to hold the double position of solicitor and trustee to the same trust. He had, however, been told that the opposition to such a change in the law would be very strong, and that it would be outside the scope of this Bill to bring in a clause to that effect. Therefore, as a layman he appealed to The Lord Chancellor and to the other noble and learned Lords present to give co-trustees and beneficiaries such relief from their anxieties as this Bill might render possible. He asked for their sympathy all the more because they had never been in the position of the unfortunate layman, for even in their younger days no evil-disposed solicitor would have been likely to attempt to deceive a barrister in good practice. An ordinary layman, and by that he meant a man capable of earning his own living in his business or in his profession, might be fairly capable of holding his own against another trustee, or against a solicitor to the trust who could be changed. But whether he was a trustee or a beneficiary he was terribly handicapped when dealing with an irremoveable trustee, who as solicitor to the trust could get possession of documents and accounts.
  Ladies were in a still worse position. Most of them knew less of business than the average layman. A lady once told him that she felt like a rabbit in the presence of a rattlesnake when transacting business with her co-trustee solicitor. The superior power conferred on one man by his double position of solicitor and trustee deterred many men from accepting trusteeships. If this one man was capable of misconduct, the trust fund was insufficiently protected, and both beneficiary and co-trustee might at any moment find themselves reduced to a state of bankruptcy. He did not at all wish it to be understood that he was attacking the great majority of solicitors. He was sincerely grateful to several of them, some of whom were
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  still alive, for valuable advice given to him when in doubt and difficulty. But unfortunately there was a small minority among them who had shown themselves unable to withstand the temptations to which they had been exposed by the immense power given to them in their double capacity of solicitor and trustee. If this or some similar clause were accepted and made use of it would, he hoped, have the effect of protecting solicitors of this class against themselves and of giving additional security to trust funds.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 6, line 14, after the word 'made' to insert as a new sub-section '(5) If any trustee or beneficiary in any existing or future trust in which a solicitor is acting or has acted in the double capacity of solicitor and trustee, shall apply to the Court to have the public trustee appointed as additional trustee, the Court shall make the appointment.'"—; (Lord Ellenborough.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORaccepted the sub-section with slight amendments, one of which required the consent of the public trustee to his appointment.
  On Question, new sub-section, as amended agreed to.
  Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 6, agreed to.
  Clause 7:—;
  LORD FABER*LORD FABER moved to delete the latter half of Sub-section (1). The words he proposed to leave out were—;
  "Except where the liability is one to which neither the public trustee nor any of his officers has in any way contributed, and which neither he nor any of his officers could by the exercise of reasonable diligence have averted, and in that case the public trustee shall not, nor shall the Consolidated Fund, be subject to any liability."
  As amended, the sub-section would read—;
  "The Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom shall be liable to make good all sums required to discharge any liability which the public trustee, if he were a private trustee, would be personally liable to discharge."
  The first part of the clause as it stood rightly laid it down that a public trustee

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  should only be liable to the same extent as a private trustee was now liable. Why, therefore, should words be inserted exempting the public trustee from certain liabilities which private trustees had not to incur? He confessed that the words were difficult to understand.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 7, line 4, to leave out from the word 'discharge' to the end of the subsection."—;(Lord Faber.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORthought it was the subject itself which was difficult to understand, and not the wording of the clause. What the clause meant was this. The Consolidated Fund was liable to make good all sums required to discharge any liability which the public trustee, if he were a private trustee, would be personally liable to discharge. This gave protection to all persons interested in trust funds. It was a very great advantage, especially in the case of small properties, if the persons interested could go to sleep feeling quite secure as to the safety of their property. But it was obvious, in the case of properties in regard to which there were other trustees and those trustees committed faults, the public trustee and the Consolidated Fund ought not to be made liable. Therefore the clause provided that the Consolidated Fund should answer for the default, except where the liability was one to which neither the public trustee nor any of his officers had in any way contributed, and which neither he nor any of his officers could by the exercise of reasonable diligence have averted. The clause was quite clear as it stood, and he could not consent to the Amendment.
  LORD FABER: A private trustee under those circumstances would not be liable.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, he would, even in cases where he has not been guilty of any negligence at all. That is unfortunately the law.
  LORD FABERsaid he took it that a person who employed the public trustee
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  would have to contribute to an insurance fund.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORreplied that under the Bill nothing would be charged beyond what was necessary for making the thing self-supporting.
  LORD FABERsaid that if there was only a small fee charged almost everyone would employ the public trustee and a very large Department would be created. People would be induced to take this course because they would have the advantage of being guaranteed by the Consolidated Fund.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  Clause 7 agreed to.
  Clauses 8, 9 and 10 agreed to.
  Clause 11:—;
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to omit from Clause 11, which deals with the mode of action of the public trustee, a proviso which declared that nothing in the Bill or in any rule made under it should confer on any person not otherwise entitled any right to appear before any Court on behalf of the public trustee or do any act which could otherwise only be lawfully done by a barrister or solicitor. He did not think it right that there should be special protection for barristers or solicitors or any other class or profession. The general law should apply, and he therefore proposed to omit the words in question.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 8, line 39, to leave out from the word 'provided' to the word 'solicitor' on page 9, line 5."—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 12 agreed to.
  Clause 13:—;
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid his Amendment to this clause was of a

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  technical character, and he did not think their Lordships would have any difficulty in accepting it.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 9, line 35, after the word 'estate' to insert as new sub-sections: (2) The Court may make the appointment of a person as judicial trustee to act as executor or administrator, with the will annexed, temporary, or subject to such conditions as to it may seem fit, and may sanction or direct the transfer of the estate to some other person for administration, and also the release of the person by whom such transfer is made. (3) Where application is made to the Court for the appointment of a judicial trustee, and it appears to the Court that the gross value of the trust property is less than five hundred pounds, the Court shall appoint a judicial trustee, unless sufficient cause is shown to the contrary. (4) This section shall be read as one with the Judicial Trustees Act, 1896."—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 14:—;
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid that unless the words in his Amendment were inserted there would be an absolute right to have the accounts of all trusts investigated and audited. It was quite right that there should be this power, but it should be subject to Rules, for it would be absurd that money should be wasted where there was no necessity.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In page 9, line 36, to leave out the word 'unless' and insert the words 'subject to rules under this Act and unless.'"—;(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 15:—;
  LORD ASHBOURNEasked, with regard to Clause 15—;which provides that The Lord Chancellor shall make rules under the Bill for, among other things, the establishment and regulation by the public trustee of any branch office—;what was to be understood by the words "branch office." Was there to be a network of branches all over the country?
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  If so, that would become a serious question for the Treasury.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid it was intended primarily to establish the public trustee in London. It was certainly not intended to set up branch offices all over the country; but there were officials connected with the High Court and the County Court in different parts of the country, and the idea was that the services of those already in the public service should be utilised.
  Drafting Amendments agreed to.
  Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 16:—;
  Drafting Amendments agreed to.
  Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clause agreed to, and Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 72.)

YEOMANRY CAMP CANTEENS.
LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE: My Lords, I rise to ask the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War a Question with reference to the prohibition of the sale of spirits at Yeomanry camp canteens. It appears that a year ago an order came down from the War Office, about a month before the Yeomanry training, to the effect that spirits were not to be sold in regimental canteens. This order was appealed against in such a manner that the War Office agreed not to proceed with the enforcement of it, and it was accordingly cancelled, these words being added "without prejudice to action on the part of the War Office at any future time." This year the following order was issued by the War Office to the Southern Command, dated March 26th—;
"It has been decided that the Imperial Yeomanry, who are subject to the Militia Act, 1882, when out for training, should adhere to the provisions of Paragraph 12 of the Rules for the Management of Garrison and Regimental Institutes, which prohibit the sale of spirituous liquors of any kind in canteens."
This order has again been appealed against. I do not know to what extent

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the War Office has been memorialised with regard to it; but I do know that by the regiment to which I have the honour to belong—;the Warwickshire Yeomanry—;a protest was sent the other day. The Warwickshire Yeomanry protested against it on the ground that it would drive the men out of the camp into the towns. An extremely bureaucratic, but not very consoling, reply was sent to the effect that the order would be insisted upon.
I sincerely hope it is not the intention of the War Office to proceed with the enforcement of this order. Perhaps the noble Earl will forgive me if I say that the War Office are dealing with men recruited from a class who have more leisure, who are accustomed to have more liberty in their own homes and more money to spend than the class from which the Regular Army and the Militia are recruited. They are accustomed to taking spirits in their own homes when they think proper. They are men whose station in life gives them a right to expect that kind of latitude. If this order is insisted upon, and if they find that they cannot get spirits in their own canteens in camp, they will be driven into the towns, which is highly undesirable, or they will smuggle spirits into their tents, which will tend to secret drinking at all hours—;a proceeding which is highly prejudicial to discipline. It is also possible that the Yeomanry camp may be very far distant from the town. I know of one regiment in the Eastern counties whose camp will be a long way from any fully-licensed house, and the men in that regiment will not be able to get any spirits at all. I am not going to say that the effect of being cut off for a fortnight from being able to drink whisky is in itself a hardship which we are not prepared to face, but I do desire most respectfully to protest against men in the Yeomanry being treated in this grandmotherly way. It is really treating them like children and submitting them to petty annoyances which they did not contemplate on joining the force. I sincerely trust that it is not too late for the order to be rescinded this year.
There is another very grave objection to proceeding with the order. It has come down at such a late hour that officers re-
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sposible for the messing of the Yeomanry have already made arrangements with contractors. If this order, therefore is insisted upon at the present moment, it means that the whole of these contracts will have to be reopened and recast, which will cause a great deal of trouble and annoyance. Not only that. The profit from the sale of spirits in the canteens is much higher than that obtained from the sale of beer, and if the power to sell spirits in camp is withdrawn it will have a very bad effect on the contract. But that is not the principal reason why I am bringing this matter forward. I hold that the tendency on the part of the War Office to be perpetually sending orders of this kind to the Yeomanry produces unnecessary irritation, and will have the effect of preventing men belonging to the class we particularly desire to attract to the Yeomanry from joining that force. I believe I am right in saying that as a whole the Imperial Yeomanry have shown remarkable steadiness while in camp, and that there has been complete absence of crime. I have had the honour to belong to the Yeomanry for a great many years, and I have hardly known among the men—;I will not say anything about the officers, although their conduct has been most exemplary—;any cases of excess whatever. The men have proved themselves in every way fit to be trusted in this matter, and I sincerely hope we shall have a favourable reply from the noble Earl the Under-Secretary.
THE MARQUESS OF BATH: My Lords, before the noble Earl the Under-Secretary replies to the noble Lord who has just sat down, I should like to be permitted to say a few words in support of the appeal which he has made. I regret the short notice which has been given of this question, but I recognise that that was absolutely unavoidable. I believe I am the only commanding officer of Yeomanry present in your Lordships' House to-day. I cannot for the life of me make out the object of this order. It has clearly been put forward by someone who does not know the Yeomanry; and, if I may venture to say so, if orders like these are going to be issued where does the responsibility of

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the commanding officer come in? I should have thought that if there was one thing in regard to which you could trust the commanding officer it was the management of his camp in matters of this kind.
My noble friend, in the statement he has made, alluded to the conduct of the men and other matters, in reference to which I thoroughly concur. I have had myself very nearly twenty-five years experience of the Yeomanry. I saw them under the old conditions, when they went into the towns, and I have seen them of late in camps, and no one who has had that experience can fail to bear me out when I say that the difference in the regiments is most extraordinary. I can fully endorse what my noble friend has said as to their conduct. I have never known, since we have been in camp, of a single case of drunkenness in the regiment to which I belong, and I believe that is the case generally. I cannot believe this order has been issued with the idea of preventing drunkenness, because, if so, it really defeats its own object. As my noble friend has pointed out, if these men, who are accustomed to drinking spirituous liquors at home, cannot get them in the canteen they will go into the town, or there will, I am afraid, be a certain amount of secret drinking in the camps. Both alternatives are to be deplored.
I may further say that I have made inquiries from other commanding officers of Yeomanry, and they are all agreed in deprecating this order. We are, I believe, absolutely unanimous in this matter, and although we are, perhaps, weakly represented on this occasion in your Lordships' House, I do earnestly trust that the noble Earl, in the answer which he will give, will be able to assure us that this order will be reconsidered with a view to its withdrawal.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to associate myself with the words which have fallen from Lord Willoughby de Broke and from the noble Marquess. After a good many years service in the Yeomanry I can thoroughly endorse every word which they have said. Speaking for the Yeomen themselves, I cannot conceive of any act on the part of the War Office
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which could have been more carefully designed than this order to diminish in their own eyes their self-respect. I am sure the noble Earl the Under-Secretary must appreciate the fact that the men who join the Yeomanry can be favourably compared, from a social point of view, with the men who join the Volunteers. Why should these men, who are self-respecting and whose private lives are quite exemplary, be treated like a lot of children during camp? Why should you insinuate that you think they are not sufficiently trustworthy to decide how much liquor they should take?
There is one other point in connection with this to which I should like to draw the noble Earl's attention. When the contract for feeding the Yeomanry is entered into the contractor takes into account the profit he will get from the canteen, and consequently in proportion as the profits are high the men are fed cheaply. The prices charged in the canteens are not higher than those which obtain in public houses in the neighbourhood. If you take away from the contractor the right of making a profit on those liquors in the canteens, he will naturally charge the men higher prices for their food during the training, and the profits which might have been retained in the regiment will be distributed among the public houses in the district. For the sake of the internal economy of the regiment I would suggest to the noble Earl the Under-Secretary that it would be preferable to allow the old arrangement to continue than to insist on this new order.
For the last four or five years we have been told by the War Office that the Yeomanry was a force which they looked upon with respect and consideration, and which they regarded as a very valuable adjunct to the Regular force. I presume that those views are still held by the War Office to-day. I should very much like to hear from the noble Earl I whether the authorities still entertain the same feelings of regard for the efficiency and the military bearing of those who belong to the Yeomanry force. If those views, which are held by Lord Roberts, General Buller, Lord Kitchener, and Sir Ian Hamilton, are still held in the War Office, then surely you ought to

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do all in your power to maintain the high character of this force. As to this order, I contend that it will do more to deplete the ranks of Yeomanry regiments than any other order which has been issued by the War Office for many years past.
THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH): My Lords, the Question raised by the noble Lord is doubtless an important one, but I can assure the House that the Army Council have been fully alive to its importance, and have most carefully considered the question in all its aspects. The Imperial Yeomanry when out for training are subject to the provisions of the Militia Act, and therefore subject, like the Regular Army and Militia, to military law. The Army Council have therefore decided that the Imperial Yeomanry must be subject, generally, to the same rules and regulations as the Regulars and Militia. In virtue of this decision the Imperial Yeomanry are subject to the Rules for Management of Garrison and Regimental Institutes, paragraph 12 of which lays down that—;
"At home stations the sale of spirituous liquors of any description is prohibited, but at stations abroad commanding officers will use their discretion in this respect."
At the same time the Army Council recognise that the Imperial Yeomanry, from the nature of their organisation and composition, may deserve special treatment in this matter, and, therefore, while insisting that they must be generally amenable to military discipline in this as in other respects, the Council have no objection to contractors who cater for the regiments of Imperial Yeomanry supplying with the mid-day meal such class of drink as the Yeomen desire, provided the sanction of the general officer commanding-in-chief is obtained. This is the only relaxation of the general principle the Army Council feel prepared to admit.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the Answer of the noble Earl who has just spoken on behalf of His Majesty's Government seems to me to meet very indifferently the strong case
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which was made by the noble Lord on the Cross Benches in the course of his extremely temperate and well-reasoned speech. I understand that the War Office has issued this prohibition on the ground that while the Yeomanry are out for training they are subject to military law, and that for that reason they must be subject, not only to military law in the general sense, but to every detailed rule and regulation which may be issued by the military authorities in regard to the Regular Army. I must say that that seems to me to be rather a hide-bound manner of regarding the problem, because, as the noble Lord pointed out with so much truth, these Yeomen are drawn from a different social class from that which fills the ranks of other portions of the Army. As the noble Lord the Under-Secretary told us just now, they are differently organised. They have more leisure. They presumably have more loose cash in their pockets, and also, I think it is fair to point out, as has been pointed out by my noble friend Lord Bath, that they have an absolutely unblemished record for steadiness and good conduct when out for their annual training Surely that was a reason for brushing on one side the argument that because a certain kind of regulation was good for ordinary regimental institutes, therefore it was also good for the Yeomanry when out for training in camp. I was glad to notice, towards the conclusion of the Under-Secretary's speech, that the Army Council have shown some signs of a desire to relent. I gathered from the noble Earl that at meals, at all events—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Only at one meal, the mid-day meal.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: At one meal in the day these gallant soldiers are to be allowed a modicum of these beverages. I hope that on reflection the military authorities will see that this is a matter in which the officers commanding Yeomanry regiments can really be trusted. I should like, before sitting down, to ask the noble Earl a specific Question

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—;namely, whether before this regulation was issued, the War Office took into their confidence and consulted the colonels of Yeomanry regiments.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, I should like, as commanding officer of a regiment, to associate myself with what has fallen from the noble Lord on the Cross Benches. I regard this as a most irritating and unnecessary order, and with all respect to the great authority of the Army Council, I fail to understand the attitude which has been taken up. It seems to be presumed that everybody who wears His Majesty's uniform is cast in one mould, and that no possible relaxations are to be made in respect of any particular corps. The great object, I believe, nowadays is to induce men of education and standing to serve His Majesty, whether in the Auxiliary or Regular Forces, but if you are going to treat these men like children in this irritating way, you will be doing everything you possibly can to make their camps disagreeable, and to drive them out of the force. I do think that commanding officers should be treated with a little more confidence and given a little more discretion. The noble Earl, the Under-Secretary, stated that whilst spirituous liquors are not to be allowed at home, commanding officers abroad may supply them at discretion. Why are commanding officers abroad to be allowed to use their discretion whilst it is denied to commanding officers at home? Speaking for my own corps, the men in the ranks are practically of the same class as my officers. By a regulation of the regiment, all my officers go through the ranks. I have a great many men in the ranks who will eventually be officers, and all I can say is that if I had men who could not be trusted in the same camp with a bottle of whisky, they would not remain long in the corps.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, as one who has been mess president of a regiment, I suppose I ought to express my gratitude to the noble Earl the Under-Secretary for the concession which the Army Council have been pleased to
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make, but their action only shows their utter and complete ignorance in regard to this question. This concession only adds insult to injury. The noble Earl picked out a regulation which mentions home stations and regimental institutes, and he would have us believe that a Yeomanry training camp is to be compared with a home station or a regimental institute. It is a totally different thing. These troopers who go out for a fortnight, very often at great inconvenience to themselves, are men of standing. I have had doctors serving in my squadron as well as men who kept their own servants at home, and prosperous farmers. Are these men who come out for a fortnight in the year to have applied to them conditions which govern home stations or regimental institutes?
We are told that the Army Council, after careful consideration, have come to the conclusion to make a very gracious concession. The tired Yeoman is to be allowed to have a little whisky with his mid-day meal. What does this mean? The Yeoman drills hard all the morning, he comes back and has his midday meal, and it is a thousand to one he has to go to the stables after. The time at which he wants refreshment is long after the mid-day meal. What possible pretext or justification does the War Office allege for this treatment of the Yeomanry? I noticed the other day that the Secretory of State for War was asked in the other House whether any complaints had reached the War Office as regards the conduct of the Yeomanry during camp, and the Secretary of State answered that no such complaints had reached him. What possible reason is there for this alteration in the whole system of the Yeomanry?
All Parties in politics were disposed, when the Secretary of State said he wanted time to consider the question of Army reform, to give him that time. Are we to regard this abortive rule as the first product of the mind of the Secretary of State when working out his Army scheme? If that is the kind of rule and regulation which is going to begin the reform of the Army, then all I can say is

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I certainly hope His Majesty s Government will not go any further. I still venture to hope, notwithstanding the extreme ignorance which this rule shows of all the conditions governing the Yeomanry, that the War Office have learned from commanding officers something about the circumstances of that force, and will reconsider their determination to persist in this order.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The MARQUESS of RIPON): My Lords, the noble Viscount who has just sat down seems to think that it is a very extraordinary thing that the Army Council should desire to apply to the Yeomanry the same rules which apply to the Militia and the Regular Army. I confess I cannot see anything extraordinary in that at all. It seems to me that it is very desirable that the same rule should apply to all portions of His Majesty's Forces, and the notion which seems largely to occupy the minds of some of those who have addressed us this evening that there is any intention to make any kind of reflection upon the Yeomanry by applying to them the same rules which are applied to the Regular Army and to the Militia is an entirely erroneous one. I do not understand how it could have arisen.
The noble Lord who has just sat down and others have said that the Secretary of State in another place recognised the good conduct of the Yeomanry. No doubt he did. But nobody is complaining of the conduct of the Yeomanry. These proposals are not made because the Yeomanry have shown themselves unworthy of confidence. They are made upon general principles connected with the military forces at large, and it seems to me to be most unjust and unwise that noble Lords should attempt to make out that the Army Council are treating the Yeomanry with any want of consideration or respect, or in any way implying that their conduct is deserving of reprobation.
The case is absolutely simple and plain. The Army Council think it desirable that regulations of this kind should be applied in a uniform manner to all His Majesty's
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forces, and it is upon that ground that they have issued the order of which complaint is now made. The noble Duke the Duke of Marlborough, who I do not see now in his place, concluded his speech, if I understood him rightly, by the most extraordinary assertion that I have heard for a long time. The noble Duke indicated that this step had been taken by the Army Council and by His Majesty's Government for the purpose of reducing the strength of the Yeomanry. That really goes a little beyond what is fair argument. All I can say is that I believe the Army Council to be right in applying these rules generally, and I repudiate with all the strength I can any assertion that they are intended in any way to imply want of confidence in, or want of regard for, the Yeomanry force.
LORD WILLOUGHBY DE BROKE: My Lords, if I may be permitted to speak again, I should like to tell the noble Lord that I do not think his reply to my Question at all satisfactory, from the point of view of the Yeomanry. If he will take some means of testing the opinion of the Yeomanry he will find that the action of the War Office is exceedingly distasteful to all ranks. We shall take an early opportunity of again raising the question, and shall consider, in the meantime, what we can do to get the Army Council to alter this decision.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Will the noble Earl answer the Question I put to him—;namely, were Yeomanry colonels consulted before this regulation was introduced?
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: The Question asked by Lord Willoughby de Broke only appeared on the Paper on Saturday, and I have not had much time to inquire into the matter. If the noble Marquess will put his Question down I shall be perfectly prepared to give him a full and complete Answer.
House adjourned at five minutes before Six o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.