Lords Sitting of 4 May 1906

Preamble
The Lord Silchester (E. Longford)—;Took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: —; Huddersfield Corporation; Carlisle Corporation; Todmorden Corporation; Great Eastern Railway; Bacup Corporation; Cardiff Gas; North East Lincolnshire Water; Thornton Urban District Gas; New Mills Urban District Council; Uxbridge Gas.
The same were ordered to lie on the is Table.
Shrewsbury Corporation Water Bill; Poole Corporation Water Bill. The order of Tuesday last referring the Examiners' Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders to the Standing Orders Committee, discharged.
Great Northern Railway (Ireland) Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Bury Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Buenos Ayres Grand National Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Electric Supply) Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 12th of March and 3rd of April last, discharged, and Bill committed.
County of Durham Electric Power Supply Bill [H.L.]. Report from the
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Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 12th of March and 3rd of April last, discharged, and Bill committed.
Newport Harbour Commissioners Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 19th of March and the 3rd of April last, discharged, and Bill committed.
Watford Gas Bill. Read 2a, and committed.
Penllwyn Railway and Road Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Gas Companies (Removal of Sulphur Restrictions) Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London, No. 1.) Bill [H.L.]; Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Kesteven, etc.) Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a (according to order).

PETITIONS.

  EDUCATION.
  Petitions in favour of maintenance of existing religious teaching in Church of England schools of—;
  Parents and guardians of children attending schools at Bolton, Holy Trinity —;Accrington, St. John's.
  Teachers in a school at Accrington, St. John's. Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS (BUILDING BYE-LAWS) BILL, [H.L.]
  Petition in favour of; of Royal Sanitary Institute. Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION (VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS.)
  Statement showing number of voluntary schools on 1st January, 1906 in urban areas with a population of 5,000 and over in England and Wales respectively, and their average attendance for statistical year ended 31st July, 1904, with approximate percentages to the total number and average attendance of all the voluntary schools in England and Wales for the same period.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade.

  I. Authorising the construction of Light Railways in the county of Lincoln from Blyton to Frodingham; urban districts of Enfield and Edmonton in the county of Middlesex; urban district of Cheshunt in the county of Hertford; county of Somerset from Blagdon to Pensford.

  II. Authorising a deviation in the parish of Swadlingcote in the urban district of Swadlingcote district in the county of Derby, of a part of Railway (No. 11), authorised by the Burton and Ashby Light Railway Order, 1903.

  III. Authorising the working of branch lines of the North Staffordshire Railway as light railways under the Light Railways Act, 1896.

  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  RATEABLE HEREDITAMENTS.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I need not occupy much time in asking the House to agree to the Return asked for in my Motion because, as your Lordships will naturally suppose, I approached the Local Government Board to find out whether there would be any objection to it. It is really intended to be in supplement and in continuation of a Return which I moved for some five or six years ago, at the time when I was Chairman of the Local Taxation Commission. At first I thought it would be desirable to have that Return brought up to date, but the communications which I received
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  from the Local Government Board convinced me that it would be unduly costly—;costly out of proportion to any good that would be gained—;to ask for that; and therefore I have put the Motion on the Paper in an amended form.
  I take this opportunity of acknowledging the courtesy with which my representations were received by the Local Government Board, and I hope to hear, as I believe I shall, that there is no objection to this Return. The Return I asked for five years ago set out, in respect of each union, the value of all kinds of property assessed for the poor rate, dividing them into lands, buildings, railways, and other sub-divisions. I have ascertained that there is a Return presented every year under the Acts of 1862 and 1897 known as the Annual Local Taxation Return, and all that I ask is that there should be a small supplementary Return dividing one of the columns which appears in that Return—;namely, the one which gives the annual value of hereditaments—; and showing the value respectively of railways and other properties separated one from the other.
  I think that perhaps few of your Lordships realise the importance of this in respect of the greatly increasing amount at which railways are being annually assessed for local purposes. Last year railways contributed nearly £5,000,000 to local taxation, and so far as I can gather, the increase has been very rapid in the last two or three years. I believe that in the last three years the increase amounted each year to £250,000 or £300,000. To some extent this must arise from the opening of new railways and the like, but the increase is very alarming to those who are interested in railway property. I think it extremely desirable that the full facts should be made known, and I believe that the preparation and publication of this Return will aid in that object.
  Moved, "That there be laid before the House a Return showing for each union in England and Wales (a) the gross estimated rental, and (b) the rateable value in 1899 and in 1906 of (i) All rateable hereditaments, and (ii.) railways

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  included in (i.) (the term 'railways' to include stations and depôts)."—;Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON): My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, I have to say that my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board will be very glad to meet the noble Lord's wishes. The Return which he asks for will be prepared with the least possible delay.
  On Question, agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  POPLAR BOARD OF GUARDIANS.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH,who had given notice "To ask His Majesty's Government whether the Local Government Board have ordered an inquiry into the administration and expenditure of the Board of Guardians of Poplar Union; and, if so, what is the nature of the inquiry, and what are the instructions under which it is being held; and whether adequate opportunity will be given to any ratepayer to appear at this inquiry, and to give such information germane to the inquiry which he may wish to supply," said: My Lords, the notice which I have placed upon the Paper really consists of three Questions, but, of course, the last Question is by far the most important. I have every reason to believe than an inquiry of some sort has been ordered, but I have been unable to ascertain exactly what inquiry it is, and some friends of mine who are interested locally in the expenditure of Poplar have also been unable to get the information for which I ask.
  I do not wish to bring any general charge of wasteful or extravagant expenditure against the Poplar Board of Guardians, but the facts and figures as published seem to me to show a very strong prima facie case in that direction. I think it obviously desirable that by some means or another, before some impartial tribunal, the precise facts should be made known, as well as all the difficulties with which the guardians of such a union as Poplar must necessarily have to contend. I should be very sorry
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  indeed if, in putting this Question, I were supposed to be hostile to the granting of any fair assistance or relief to boards of guardians in the East End of London who have great difficulties to cope with, but I do attach the very greatest possible importance to this, that if relief is to be given, either by equalisation of rates over the Metropolis or in any other way, the greatest care should be taken to see that the soundest possible principles of administration are observed, and that every reasonable premium in favour of economy is put before those responsible for local administration.
  I quite admit that one or several tests taken by themselves may not carry conviction of a charge of wasteful or extravagant administration. For instance, in some unions the proportion of paupers to the population is very much larger than in others. In some cases expenditure rises rapidly, and, taken by themselves, these tests, as I have said, are not conclusive. But, when you find almost every known test which can be applied tending in the same direction, then I must say I think there is a very strong prima facie case made out for extravagance of administration. In the absence of information which can only be got by such an inquiry as I hope will be instituted, one is thrown back upon published figures.
  In Poplar it is the case at the present time that one out of every sixteen of the population is in receipt of Poor Law relief in some form or other; and, if you take the cost of expenditure during the last three or four years, it is shown that since 1901 the actual increase of cost per head per week of the indoor paupers has risen by two shillings—;a very alarming increase. The rates are 12s. in the £ and the actual cost of out-door paupers alone has risen from £16,000 in 1901 to £35,000 in 1905. Now, these facts taken together seem to me to establish a prima facie case that there is something very wrong with the administration. But the case does not stop there, because one can make comparisons with other unions in the immediate neighbourhood of Poplar, which, although it may possibly be said that none of them are individually so poor as Poplar, still

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  cannot be very different in degree. If I take the Shoreditch, Bethnal Green, Whitechapel, St. George's, Stepney, and Mile End Unions and add together the populations I find that the total is 539,044 individuals. In the whole of those six unions there were, in 1906, only some 3,000 paupers, whereas, turning to Poplar, with a population of 169,000, I find that in the same year there were nearly 7,000 paupers.
  The matter does not even stop there, because the course of events is even more instructive. If it could be said that Poplar had been subject to some sudden emergency of distress perhaps a palliative case could be made out, but Poplar cannot be affected differently from all these other unions, and the course of the history of the other unions has been this. In 1901 there were 2,364 paupers in the six unions I have mentioned. In 1905 they numbered 2,860, or an increase of 500. The increase in Poplar was from 3,481 to 7,384. It seems to me practically certain, on these figures, that there must be something wrong.
  I think myself that the facts as to the various classes of property in Poplar perhaps account for that administration to some extent. We are likely to have, I understand, a discussion on the vexed and difficult question of compounding in this House early next week, and I do not wish to trespass on what will be said then, but those of your Lordships who know anything about local administration will appreciate the gravity of these facts. The total rateable value of Poplar is £830,000. Now £370,000 of that rateable value carries no vote or qualification to stand for the board of guardians; £370,000 is the rateable value of public works in respect of which no one is qualified to sit or to take part in local administration. Of the remaining £460,000 only £170,000 is in subjects above £20 annual value, so that £290,000, being under £20 of annual value, is the subject of the vicious system of compounding, and the dwellers in those houses have no first-hand knowledge whatever of what they pay for local administration. Your Lordships, of course, know that the system of compounding makes a certain amount of allowance to the landlord for the collection of the rates,
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  and I think it will show to what extent this vicious system has been carried when I tell you that last year the system of compounding cost the Poplar ratepayers no less than £37,648, or a rate of nearly 1s. in the £ on the whole rateable value of the union. So much for Poor Law matters.
  A correspondent has informed me that in the matter of pauper schools there is very grave reason for thinking that the Poplar Guardians have been guilty of considerable extravagance. They have, as I am informed, taken land for their schools at £100 an acre, while I am told much cheaper land quite as suitable could have been obtained close by. My informant says that the internal fittings of the schools are on a most extravagant scale, and he goes so far as to say that £50,000 might have been saved in the fitting up of that one building alone. I am told that the engineering work, amounting to £25,000, was given out without the slightest attempt to make a contract, and that it was not the subject of a contract at all. The general fitting of the school, building is described as being a long way ahead of any public school such as Eton or Harrow. The staircase is of teak, the swimming bath as good as any in London, and I am told that the roof beam in the boys' dining-room would not disgrace the finest cathedral in England.
  There may be justification for these things, but what I ask your Lordships is this—;With a rate of 12s. in the £, can the unfortunate people of Poplar afford these luxuries? Just think who it is who has to pay for them. I do not know whether the owners of the public works will get much sympathy from your Lordships, but the people I plead for against this form of local extravagance are those unfortunate people who are just able to keep their heads above water and no more. They have to pay. It may be concealed from them in the vicious system of compounding, and they may think that all they pay the landlord goes in rent, but for every pound which is drawn from them they have to find so many shillings a week for local adminstration. It does not tend to sound administration that the system of compounding should be allowed to go to such an extent

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  as I have described, because it does not seem to the people who can control it that they are really being made to pay.
  The reason I am anxious about the inquiry is this. I am informed that the board of guardians have not taken the steps they ought to take to make known the periodical audit of their accounts. I know that so far as Scotland is concerned, when there is to be an audit of the accounts of any local body the date is advertised, and I was under the impression that the same salutary rule held good in England. I am quite certain it ought to be so, and that every ratepayer ought to have an opportunity of appearing before the auditor to examine the accounts of those who are administering his affairs. I am told that the notice on the occasion of the last audit of the Poplar board of guardians was posted only in the hall of the board of guardians and in the workhouse, and that there was no other public advertisement of any kind.
  I am glad to be able to say that those who are interested locally in the expenditure of Poplar are moving in the matter. They have formed an association which is strong enough to represent the facts before any impartial inquiry which may be appointed by the Local Government Board. The point which I chiefly want to press upon those responsible for the management of the Local Government Board at the present time is that the facts which I have disclosed do provide at any rate a strong prima facie case for a thorough and impartial inquiry. If there are difficulties so great in Poplar that this expenditure is justifiable, it seems to me very desirable that they should be made known; but if, on the other hand, there has been extravagance, it is at least of equal public importance that the actual facts should be disclosed. That, I believe, can only be done by means of an inquiry under a tribunal as impartial and as strong as I believe the Local Government Board to be.
  EARL CARRINGTON: My Lords, the House will, I am sure, readily understand and applaud the reasons which have induced the noble Lord to bring
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  this most important matter before the House, but I would very respectfully ask the House not to prejudge the case, because the noble Lord has brought forward some statements from an unknown correspondent, which he calls facts. I respectfully submit that they are, after all, only allegations, and that by going into such details you will prejudge the case. Attention has been drawn in various quarters to the extent of pauperism in the Poplar Union, and the financial position of the union, and other matters affecting the relief of the poor therein, and the President of the Local Government Board thought it desirable to direct Mr. Davy, the chief general inspector of the Board, to inquire and report as regards the general, industrial and financial conditions of the union, its pauperism, and the administration of the guardians and their officers. Mr. Davy is now engaged on these investigations. Representation have, no doubt, been made by the guardians and other bodies that a public inquiry should be held, at which the ratepayers should be heard, and that is what I understand the noble Lord opposite desires. But the President—;and I think the noble Lord will agree with me that he was wise in that decision—;has reserved the decision of this question until Mr. Davis' preliminary inspection is completed, and that will shortly be the case. I shall be happy if I can be of service to the noble Lord in giving him any information he desires.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I thank the noble Lord for the courtesy of his Answer, but I would point out that he has failed to reply to my third Question —;namely, whether Mr. Davy, under his instructions, will be bound to hear and consider any representation which is made to him by those locally interested.
  EARL CARRINGTON: I thought I had answered that Question. The President of the Local Government Board has reserved his decision on that point until Mr. Davy's preliminary inspection is completed, and that will shortly be the case. I can assure the noble Lord that there will be no unnecessary delay, and that every publicity will be given which the noble Lord could possibly desire.

  RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION IN SCHOOLS.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE): My Lords, in rising to move for the Return which I have put down on the Paper in fulfilment of the promise I made to the most rev. Primate, there is no need for me to go over again the ground I traversed yesterday, when I attempted to explain the form which the Return, in our opinion, ought to take. There is only one point on which I wish to say a word. Sub-head (4) inquires for any information now in the possession of the local education authority as to the religious instruction, other than that under its own regulations or syllabus, given in individual council schools. The most rev. Primate was anxious that it should be made perfectly clear that that information would include a report as to any schools within their knowledge where no religious instruction of any kind was given. We do not see our way to alter the form of the Return for the reasons which I stated yesterday; but I have arranged that to the circulars to be issued to the local education authorities a note will be added making it quite clear that that information, where they possess it, is to be supplied. It was always the intention of this sub-head that that information should, where possible, be included, but as the most rev. Primate wishes it to be made more clear, he can take it from me that the addition will be made in the form of a note in the circular issued to the local education authorities.
  Moved, "That there be laid before the House, a Return showing in respect of each Local Education Authority in England and Wales under Part III. of the Education Act, 1902—;

  1. The Regulations or Syllabus for Religious Instruction put forth for the use of its Council Schools, and the date on which they were issued;

  2. In the absence of such Regulations or Syllabus, any Resolution of the Authority on the subject, and its date;

  3. Whether the Authority leaves Individual Council Schools free to depart from the Regulations or Syllabus;

  4. Any information now in the possession of the Local Education Authority
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  as to the Religious Instruction, other than, that under its own Regulations or Syllabus, given in individual Council Schools;

  5. What arrangements the Local Authority makes for the inspection of the Religious Instruction in its Council Schools."—;(The Lord President.)

  On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

SOLICITORS' BILL, [H.L.]
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ALVERSTONE: My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships more than a few moments in stating the objects of this Bill. Up till a few years ago it was supposed that there was a discretion as to granting certificates to solicitors under certain circumstances, but owing to a decision of the Court of Appeal in 1901 it was found that there was no discretion at all in the case of bankrupt solicitors, and the result is that there are upwards of seventy undischarged bankrupts now practising as solicitors. Under the Act of 1888 the Master of the Rolls has discretion in cases where a certificate has been suspended or not taken out for a period of twelve months; and this Bill simply provides, not that a solicitor who is an undischarged bankrupt may not practise, but that he shall only do so where the Master of the Rolls thinks fit to give him a certificate. There may be cases where, having regard to the circumstances of his bankruptcy, it is right that the solicitor should be allowed to practise; but there may be other cases where it would not be right that he should do so. This Bill has passed your Lordships' House on two occasions, and last year it was a Government measure in the other House. It has been felt for some time that there ought to be a discretion such as is given in this Bill, and I ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —;(Lord Alverstone.)
On Question, Bill read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

POST OFFICE (MONEY ORDERS) BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, the object of this Bill is simply to extend the provisions of Section 4 of the Post Office (Money Orders) Act of 1883, which allows an interchange of postal orders between this country and our Colonies and British possessions. The object of this new Bill is to sanction an interchange between any foreign State and Egypt and any other of our British protectorates. The Bill is especially framed with regard to our African protectorates. It has already passed the House of Commons without opposition, and I trust your Lordships will see your way to read it a second time.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —;(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Bill read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS (BUILDING BYE-LAWS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I understand that the Local Government Board are anxious to put down one or two small drafting Amendments which are not quite ready. I beg, therefore, to ask your Lordships to allow me to postpone the Motion for the Third Reading of this Bill till Thursday next.
Order for the Third Reading, by leave of the House, postponed.

SEED POTATOES SUPPLY (IRELAND) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order); and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.