Lords Sitting of 3 May 1906

Preamble
Several Lords took the Oath.
The Earl of Morley sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Bute (English and Welsh) Estates Bill [H.L.].—;Judges' Report received; Bill presented, and read 1a.
Portsmouth Water Bill [H.L.].—;Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Morley be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Ravensworth; read and agreed to.
Epsom and Ewell Gas Bill. Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Dowlais Gas Bill; Merthyr Tydfil Gas Bill. Read 2a, and committed.
Manchester Churches Bill [H.L]; Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway Bill [H.L.]; Mullingar, Kells, and Drogheda Railway Bill [H.L.]; Folkestone and District Electricity Supply Bill [H.L.]; Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [H.L.] Kent Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Folkestone, Sandgate and Hythe Tramways (No. 1) Bill [H.L.]; Folkestone, Sandgate, and Hythe Tramways (No. 2.) Bill [H.L.].—;Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills, viz:—;D. Wellington, E. Mayo, V. Falmouth, L. Suffield, L. Brougham and Vaux (Chairman); agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet on Thursday next at Eleven o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.
Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [H.L.]. (NO. 62).—;A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the
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Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Charing Gas, Chichester Gas, Corsham Gas, Farnham Gas, and Kings Lynn Gas.
Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]. (NO. 63).—;A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Newport Pagnell Gas, Pontardulais Gas, Raunds Gas, Redditch Gas, and Saint Austell Gas.
Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. (No. 64).—;A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Bolsovor and District Water, Great Grimsby Gas, Great Grimsby Water. Hoylake and West Kirby Water, Wath-upon-Dearne and District Gas, and Wollaston Gas.
Water Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. (No. 65).—;A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Herne Bay Water, Maidstone Water, Mid-Kent Water, Rickmansworth and Uxbridge Valley Water, Sleaford and District Water and Slough Water.
Tramways Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. (NO. 66).—;A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Altrincham Urban District Council Tramways, Dewsbury Corporation Tramways, Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Tramways, Ossett Corporation Tramways, Portobello and Mussel-burgh Tramways (Port Seaton Extension), and Rochdale Corporation Tramways.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3.) Bill [H.L.]. (No. 67).—;A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts 1882 and 1888, the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1890, and the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1902, relating to Bellshill, Blantyre, Bothwell, Dumfermline and District, Dunoon, Fochabers, Inveresk, Shettleston, and Pollcross and Uddingston: And
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 4.) Bill [H.L.]. (No. 68.)—;A Bill to

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confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts 1882 and 1888, relating to Aylesbury, Boston, Castleward, Weetslade, and Cramlington, Godalming (Extension), Gomersal, Henley-on-Thames, Pinner, Stanmore, Harrow, Weald, and Edgware, Ryton, Swanage, Wantage and District.—;Were presented by the Lord Granard (E. Granard); read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3571. China (Ichang); No. 3572. Switzerland.
  CONGESTED DISTRICT (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1897.
  Eighth Annual Report of the Congested Districts (Scotland) Board to the Secretary for Scotland.

  JUDICIAL STATISTICS (ENGLAND AND WALES) 1904 (PART II. CIVIL JUDICIAL STATISTICS).
  Statistics relating to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, the House of Lords, the Supreme Court of Judicature, County Courts and other Civil Courts, edited by Sir John Macdonnell, C.B., LL.D., a Master of the Supreme Court.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Rules and Programme of Examinations for 1907.

  GAS COMPANIES (METROPOLIS).
  Accounts of the Metropolitan Gas Companies for the year 1905.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  EDUCATION.
  Petitions in favour of the maintenance of existing religious teaching in Church of England schools of St. Annes, Clifton—;and Radcliffe, St. Andrews; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  JURORS.
  Petition in favour of payment of jurors attending Quarter Sessions; of Justices of
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  the Peace for Essex; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS (BUILDING BYE-LAWS) BILL [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

  SEED POTATOES SUPPLY (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  (The EARL of ONSLOW in the Chair.)
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2:
  LORD DENMANexplained that the Amendment standing in his name to this clause was necessitated by the Bill becoming law at a later date than was originally contemplated. He begged to move.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In Clause 2, page 2, line 40, after ('seven') to insert ('Provided that where the first ordinary poor rate made during the year 1906 was made before the passing of this Act, and the first special rate was not made therewith, then the amount of the instalment payable by any purchaser which would have been leviable by that rate shall be added to the amount of the second instalment payable by him, and the total amount of both instalments shall be levied by the special rate made at the same time as the first ordinary poor rate made during the year 1907.'"—;(Lord Denman.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3, agreed to.
  Clause 4:
  LORD DENMANsaid his Amendment to this clause was little more than a drafting one.
  Amendment moved—;
  "In Clause 4, page 3, line 16, after ('union') to insert ('and any rate made before the passing of this Act which would have been valid if this Act had previously passed.'"—;(Lord Denman.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to; and Bill reported with Amendments to the House.
  Moved, that the Standing Committee be negatived.—;(Lord Denman.)
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEobjected to the proposal to negative the Standing Committee stage. He knew that there were several Members of their Lordships' House anxious to move important Amendments, and he thought the course which the noble Lord in charge of the Bill asked the House to take was a very unusual one. The sending of the Bill to the Standing Committee would cause but a trifling delay.
  LORD DENMANdid not think the course he proposed was at all unusual. The Standing Committee stage was frequently negatived in the case of Departmental Bills. The question was one of considerable urgency, because county councils in Ireland were fixing the rate mentioned in the Bill, and it was obviously necessary that they should do so under the law of the country, and that their action should be legalised as soon as possible. He hoped his noble friend on the Cross Benches would see his way to withdraw his objection to the Motion.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEregretted that he could not comply with the request of his noble friend. Several noble Lords who were anxious to move Amendments expected to have the opportunity of doing so in the Standing Committee. The reference of the Bill to the Standing Committee would only mean a delay of five days.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON): My Lords, I hope the House will agree to the Motion which has been submitted by the noble Lord in charge of this Bill. As my noble friend explained on the occasion of the Second Reading, the Bill is to correct errors which have arisen in consequence of the Bill of the late Government not having passed into law through want of time. The object of the Bill is to legalise certain proceedings which have been taken, and which, without the Bill, would not be legal. It is, therefore, a measure of really urgent
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  importance, and I trust your Lordships will agree to the Motion to negative the Standing Committee.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I have no doubt the Bill is a desirable one, and I do not think we on this side of the House have any intention whatever of obstructing its progress. On the other hand, it must be evident to any one who will read it through that it deals with some very technical points, and the noble Lord who sits on the Cross Benches tells your Lordships that he and some of his friends desire that these points should be further examined in Committee. If my noble friend is right in saying that a delay of five days is all that would be involved by the Bill going, in the ordinary course, to the Standing Committee, I must say it seems to me only reasonable that the course which he recommends should be adopted by your Lordships.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE): I confess that we on this side of the House are somewhat disappointed at the action taken by the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition. The measure as it stands received the warm approval in another place of Mr. Walter Long, who is thoroughly acquainted with all the facts of the case. In these circumstances I do venture to make one more appeal to the noble Marquess and the Party opposite not to press their opposition to the Motion.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid there was not the slightest desire on the part of noble Lords on the Opposition side of the House to cause obstruction. The facts, broadly speaking, had been accurately stated. To the Bill itself there was no opposition, but he gathered from what he had heard that there was a desire to discuss Clause 3. This particular clause had been discussed in the House of Commons, and there was a difference of opinion upon it. Having regard to what had passed, he did not think it unreasonable that there should be some discussion and some ventilation of opinion upon it in their Lordships' House if desired.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I can only speak again by your Lordships' favour, but if you will allow

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  me to do so I would point out that the Bill can be amended without going to the Standing Committee. It can be amended on Report or on Third Reading, Why, therefore, a Bill of this urgency should be delayed by being referred to the Standing Committee I cannot see.
  LORD ASHBOURNEagreed as to the power of the House to make Amendments at either of the stages named by the noble Marquess the Lord Privy Seal. He assumed that his noble friend on the Cross Benches only desired that full opportunity should be given for discussing such Amendments as he and his friends might put down. Having regard to the history of the Bill, that was only reasonable. Perhaps the noble Marquess would inform the House the day on which it was proposed to take the next stage.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: The Bill could be put down for Report tomorrow and for Third Reading on Monday, when Amendments could be discussed. The point is a small one and hardly worth disputing about. But it is not reasonable to ask that the Bill should be sent to the Standing Committee.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: If the noble Marquess the Leader of the House will tell us that in his opinion the immediate passage of this Bill is so urgent that the trifling delay for which my noble friend asks would create serious inconvenience, then I would advise my noble friend to accept the proposal of the noble Marquess and bring forward his Amendments, if he has any, at a future stage.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: I am informed that that is the case.
  LORD ORANMORE and BROWNEsaid that, in the circumstances, he would withdraw his opposition.
  On Question, Standing Committee negatived.
  The Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 69.]

  RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYrose to put the following-Questions standing in his name on the Paper: viz.: "To ask the Lord President of the Council whether a Return can be furnished showing (1) the regulations or syllabus of religious instruction put forth by each local authority in England and Wales for the use of its-council schools; (2) the date when each was settled; (3) the extent to which individual council schools are, or are not free in each area to depart from the regulations or syllabus; (4) the extent, if any, to which individual council schools in the area do depart from such regulations or syllabus, or refrain from giving any religious instruction; (5) where an authority issues no regulations or syllabus, to state whether individual council schools nevertheless give religious instruction, and on what syllabus; and (6) what arrangements the local authority makes for the inspection of the religious-instruction in the council schools."
  The most rev. Primate said: My Lords, I do not mean to detain your Lordships more than a moment, for the purport of my Questions will, I think, be obvious to any of your Lordships who have read them. At this moment, when discussions are rife upon educational questions both in Parliament and in the country, reference is constantly made to the syllabuses of religious education which are in use in the council schools of the country. Quotations are frequently made from these syllabuses, sometimes for the purpose of laudation, and sometimes for the purpose of criticism or condemnation. I have no kind of controversial object in asking these Questions. All that I desire is that when we speak upon this matter we shall speak upon a subject of which we have in our hands some certain information. I therefore venture to ask that the information which is tabulated on the Paper may be furnished to the House and to the country. What we desire, of course, is to know whether, when a syllabus is quoted, it is really a typical one or an exceptional one; and, further, whether the mere fact of a syllabus standing upon paper is all that really happens in a local area—;it is reported that there are instances in which that is the case—;or whether the syllabus prescribed is, as a matter of fact, followed in the schools

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  under the control of those who issue the syllabus. For that reason I ask in my last Question what arrangements the local authority makes for the inspection of religious instruction in the council schools. I ask for a Return with regard simply to council schools, but as regards the denominational schools of the country, so far as they are in connection with the Church of England, we have no kind of wish to do other than give all possible information which may be asked for; and should the noble Earl the Lord President of the Council think it desirable that any information should be furnished by any of the authorities of the Church of England with regard to the denominational schools under their control I need hardly say how gladly and freely we will furnish it. Ten years have elapsed since a similar Return was given of religious instruction in the then Board schools of the country, and during that period a great many administrative changes have taken place with regard to educational matters and the Return then made is now for many reasons somewhat out of date. On these grounds I trust that His Majesty's Government will see their way to grant the Return for which I ask.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: Before the noble Earl replies I would like to make one observation by way of suggestion to the most rev. Primate. I think the Return will be extremely valuable and useful, and will assist the discussions which will take place on the Education Bill; but it occurs to me that it would be a valuable addition if the Return could contain a list of the council schools where there are no regulations and no syllabus. The object of the Return is to give information in a handy form, and it would be convenient to know what councils have no regulations and no syllabus.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, I can assure the most rev. Primate and the House that we have no desire whatever to place any obstacle at all in the way of his gaining the information he desires. On the contrary, we welcome his desire for further knowledge on the subject, and we most fully accept his statement that these Questions are put without any controversial object whatever. As those of your Lordships who are in the habit of studying the news-
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  papers are aware, there is not at this moment absolute agreement in the country as to the form which religious instruction ought to take in the elementary schools in England and Wales. That, at any rate, is not overstating the case; and it certainly is desirable tha those who hold different opinions on this subject should have the knowledge that they are arguing from the same data, and that their differences of opinion are not complicated by any further dispute as to what the facts of the case absolutely are; consequently we are very glad to help in supplying all the information possible. I have to point out, however, that in one or two respects it would not be easy, under the circumstances, to furnish the Return exactly in the form suggested by the most rev. Primate. Your Lordships will notice that in his Questions the most rev. Primate asks for information as to the extent, if any, to which individual council schools in the area do depart from such regulations or syllabus, or refrain from giving any religious instruction; and where an authority issues no regulations or syllabus, whether individual council schools nevertheless give religious instruction, and on what syllabus. I must point out to the most rev. Primate that if that information were to be obtained it would mean that every local authority, in any case where it had any doubt as to how far its syllabus was being practically used, would have to put the question to each individual school, and the time occupied in that process would, I am afraid, be so long—;it would be a matter of some months—;that by the time the information was received the purpose for which it was required might have passed by. I propose, therefore, if the most rev. Primate will agree, to modify the Motion, and to put it on the Paper for to-morrow in this form—;
  "To move for a Return showing in respect of each local education authority in England and Wales under Part III. of the Education Act, 1902—;

  1. The regulations or syllabus for religious instruction put forth for the use of its council schools, and the date on which they were issued.

  2. In the absence of such regulations or syllabus, any Resolution of the authority on the subject, and its date.

  3. Whether the authority leaves individual council schools free to depart from the regulations or syllabus."

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  Your Lordships will observe that that relieves the local authority from the necessity of applying to each separate school, and allows it to use the information which its education committee possesses.
  "4. Any information now in the possession of the local education authority as to the religious instruction, other than that under its own regulations or syllabus, given in individual council schools."
  On that I may deal with the point raised by the noble and learned Lord opposite. It will be quite easy, without altering the the form of the Motion, to make it clear, in issuing this Circular to the local authorities, that we wish, if they possess the information, to know in what schools no religious education at all is given; but we cannot go so far as to ask them to obtain the information by inquiry, for the reasons I have already stated to the House.
  "5. What arrangements the local authority makes for the inspection of religious instruction in its council schools."
  I now come to the observation which the most rev. Primate was good enough to make at the end of his speech. As your Lordships are aware, there are some 12,000 Church schools in the country, and I certainly think it would be desirable to lay before Parliament at the same time a statement of what may be called the typical religious instruction given in Church schools under the regulations of the different diocesan boards. I propose, therefore, to ask those who are able to supply the information to be so good as to furnish us with their different syllabuses, and when we receive them, as we have every reason to suppose we shall by the courtesy of the bodies concerned, I will lay them on the Table of the House in the form of a White Paper. It would take too long, and not be worth, I think, either the trouble or the cost, to attempt to obtain from every individual Church school a statement of what religious instruction it actually gives; but at the same time I think your Lordships will agree that it would be desirable, in addition to the information asked for by the most rev. Primate, to get some general idea of the course of religious instruction which may be considered to represent the type given in the Church schools of this country. Provided no opposition is offered to a Return in the terms I have read to your Lordships, I
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  propose to place a Motion for that Return on the Paper to-morrow.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: With the indulgence of the House I should like to say that the Answer which the noble Earl has given seems to me perfectly satisfactory. If I understood him rightly, in the more compendious form in which he proposes to give the information asked in Questions 4 and 5, there will be included something which will show the case of schools in which no religious instruction is given, so far as that is within the knowledge of the local authority.
  THE EARL OF CREWE: That is so.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: That perfectly satisfies me. I agree that expedition is of the the highest importance in this matter, and that anything which causes unnecessary delay is to be deprecated. I would only add that when the noble Earl asks the ecclesiastical authorities of the Church of England for information it will be furnished with the utmost promptitude and care.

  CRIMINAL APPEAL.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, I have on the Paper a Motion for a Return which I think will be interesting and useful in the discussion of the Criminal Appeal Bill which has been introduced by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. A great variety of Bills have been introduced dealing with this very important subject, and it would be a convenience if the information that I ask for were made readily available to those of your Lordships who may desire to take part in the discussion. In the Motion standing on the Paper I ask for a Return of all Criminal Appeal Bills introduced within the last fifty years, but it has been intimated to me that this would exclude an important Bill introduced in the year 1844. I would, therefore, with your Lordships' permission, ask for a Return of all Bills introduced since the year 1843.

  Moved, for a Return of all Criminal Appeal Bills introduced since the year 1843, showing—;

  Date of Introduction.

  How far it Proceeded.

  By whom Introduced.

  Whether it gave an Appeal on (a) Law; (b) Facts; (c) Sentence.

  Whether it permitted (a) a new trial to be ordered; (b) an increase of sentence.

  What Tribunal was to hear the Appeals.

  —;(Lord Ashbourne.)

  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord LOREBURN): My Lords, His Majesty's Government have no objection to this Return. Personally, I think it will prove most useful when the Bill in question is discussed in Committee. There is, however, a verbal Amendment which I would suggest to my noble and learned friend. He does not want a Return of all Criminal Appeal Bills, but only of those allowing appeal in criminal cases tried on indictment. I would suggest that the Motion be amended to read—;
  "That there be laid before the House a Return of all Bills introduced since 1843, which proposed to allow an appeal in criminal cases tried on indictment, showing—;"
  LORD ASHBOURNE: I gladly accept the suggested Amendment of the noble and learned Lord and shall be pleased if he will put the Motion in that form.
  On Question, Motion, as amended, agreed to.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.