Lords Sitting of 1 March 1906

VISCOUNT FERRARD.
Report made from the Lord Chancellor that the right of Algernon William John Clotworthy Skeffington Viscount Ferrard to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Several Lords took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with: West Cumberland Electric Tramways.
And also the Certificate that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with: Mid Derbyshire Railway.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Wallis' Divorce Bill [H.L.]. A Bill to dissolve the marriage of Elizabeth Caroline Wallis with Henry Aubrey Beaumont Wallis, commonly called Aubrey Wallis, her present husband and to enable her to marry again, and for other purposes. Presented (on petition) and a copy of the proceedings in and of the decree of divorce of the King's Bench, Matrimonial Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland delivered (on oath). Bill read 1a; and to be read 2a on Monday the 12th instant.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  BRITISH SOUTH AFRICA COMPANY.
  Financial Statements for 1902–1903, 1903–1904, and 1904–1905, and Esti-
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  mates for 1903–1904, 1904–1905, and 1905–1906 (in continuation of [Cd. 1682] July 1903).

  BANN AND LOUGH NEAGH DRAINAGE.
  Report of Sir Alexander R. Binnie.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  POST OFFICE STATUTORY RULES AND ORDERS, 1905.
  No. 1089. The Postal Order (Inland) Regulations, 1905, dated 12th October, 1905.
  No. 1191. The Postal Order (Colonial) Amendment No. 6) Regulations, 1905, dated 29th (September, 1905.

  NATIONAL DEBT (SAVINGS BANKS AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES).
  Account of the gross amount of all sums received and paid by the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt on account of banks for savings and friendly societies in Great Britain and Ireland, from their commencement at 6th August, 1817, to 20th November, 1905, inclusive.
  Account of the several transactions which have taken place, during the year ended 20th November, 1905, in the investment of all moneys which came into the hands of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt for savings banks and friendly societies.
  Account showing the aggregate amount of the liabilities of the Government to the trustees of savings banks and friendly societies respectively on 20th November 1905, etc.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

NEW BILLS.
  PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Public Health Acts was presented by the Lord Hylton; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 18.)
  LIMITED PARTNERSHIPS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to establish limited partnerships was presented by the Lord Avebury; rad 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Thursday the 15th instant. (No. 19.)
  PRIZE COURTS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for amending the law relating to the administration of oaths for the purpose of proceedings in prize courts; (No. 20) and

  NAVAL PRIZE BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to consolidate, with Amendments, the enactments relating to naval prize of war. (No. 21.)
  Were presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed.

MARINE INSURANCE BILL [H.L.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I am afraid the reading of this Bill a second time to-day, which I have the honour to move, is calculated to make some of your Lordships smile. This is, in more senses than one, the second time on which it has been read. The Bill is one of extreme importance, very seriously affecting an enormous business in this country; and certainly I may say, for my colleagues and myself, that it was considered with the greatest possible care. I had myself, section by section, interviews with persons interested in marine insurance, and if ever there was a Bill which was thoroughly considered by lawyers and by mercantile men interested in its subject matter, I think I may say this Bill was so considered.
  It is not for me to say what happened to the Bill last year. I have some doubt whether it was ever mentioned at all in the other House; but, if it was, it certainly never received the consideration it deserves; and I am afraid the dropping of it, or the non-mentioning of it, is not calculated to induce people who have something else to do to go through ninety-six sections of an Act of Parliament of this sort for the express purpose
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  of codifying the law and rendering it intelligible and easily accessible to merchants who are every hour of their lives considering this question. It is one of those Bills which I think I may say, without fear of contradiction, has no Party character whatever. It is simply a matter of business; and I think I may also say that no Party can have attributed to it responsibility for the negligence—I use no harsher word—which permitted this Bill, which is earnestly and anxiously looked for by the whole Mercantile Marine of this country, never to be considered at all in the other House.
  I should have been content to leave it to the Lord Chancellor, but he was kind enough to point out to me that if I moved the Second Reading of the Bill he would give it every assistance in his power, reserving to himself, of course, the right of moving Amendments. Acting on that hint I am now moving the Second Reading of the measure. I am conscious that, without the assistance of His Majesty's Government, a Bill of ninety-six sections cannot possibly become law, for there are in the other House persons prepared, not only to move Amendments, of which no one could complain, but to prevent the measure being dealt with. That assistance the Lord Chancellor has intimated that he will, as far as possible, give, and I have much confidence in moving the Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
  EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, there is a very small point in this Bill to which I drew the attention of the noble and learned Earl on the last occasion when he moved its Second Reading, namely, the definition of insurable value. In Clause 16 it is provided that the insurable value, in the case of a steamship, includes also the machinery, boilers, coals, and engine stores, and so on. I pointed out to the noble and learned Lord that since the Bill had been drafted there bad arisen a class of vessel driven by an internal combustion engine, which was in no way provided for in this section, and which, so far as I understand, would not be insurable. I would ask the noble and

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  learned Lord whether he could see his way to insert an Amendment to meet this case. I should be prepared to put one down myself on Committee stage, although I would much prefer that it should appear in the name of the noble and learned Lord, in whose hands, I am sure, the drafting would be much more perfect. The point is an actual one which is not covered by this section, and I hope it will be considered later in the Committee stage.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord LOREBURN): My Lords, this Bill is undoubtedly a very important one to the mercantile community, and it has been considered with great care. Some twelve years ago, when I was Attorney-General, I prepared many of the clauses in concert with a number of shipowners, principally from Liverpool, who were deeply interested. His Majesty's Government will most heartily do their best to further the Bill, and I certainly do not anticipate that there will be any objection to reading it a second time.
  On question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL [H.L.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I might repeat almost the same observations with regard to this Bill, the only difference being that this is a very much shorter measure and one which your Lordships have been repeatedly engaged in discussing, and that it does not require any legal training to understand and fully comprehend the effect and meaning of every part of it. I will only say this, that we have received the same assurance from the Lord Chancellor with reference to it. At the same time, the noble and learned Lord intimated to me that he intended to move certain Amendments. I have not seen them, but I need not say that I shall
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  be very glad indeed to accept any assistance the noble and learned Lord will give me. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
  LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, on behalf of the bankers of England and the Chambers of Commerce I beg to express our thanks to the noble and learned Lord for having introduced this Bill and also the one which preceded it. I sincerely trust, not only that this Bill may pass your Lordships' House, but that His Majesty's Government will give it their support and enable it to be carried through the other House and become law. There is just one point in the Bill which I would earnestly press on the consideration of my noble and learned friend. I refer to the clause which makes all prosecutions under it depend on the consent of the Attorney-General. I should be very glad, and I believe the commercial community generally would be very glad, if the noble and learned Lord could see his way to reconsider that provision of the Bill, at any rate in cases of small amounts, say, under £100. Subject to that, I thank the noble and learned Lord very much for introducing the Bill at this early period of the session, and I earnestly trust that it will become law this year.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I wish to say a single word on behalf of those who are connected neither with the legal nor with the mercantile professions, as to the interest with which this Bill, for the renewal of which we owe our thanks to the noble and learned Lord opposite, is regarded in the country. I have had many communications on the subject, showing how strong is the feeling on the part of those who are interested, not in any technical part of it, but in those large questions of principle and morality which underlie the proposals of the measure. I earnestly hope, not only that your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading, but that it will make progress elsewhere, and that we may see it placed on the Statute Book this session.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the measure of importance which His Majesty's Government attaches to this Bill will be best gauged when I remind the House that a Bill of this character was promised in His Majesty's gracious Speech from the Throne. It was a matter on which the late Lord Russell of Killowen spent a good deal of praisworthy energy, as did also Sir Edward Fry and others. I have always been most strongly in favour of a Bill of this kind. No one, however, has been more energetic in the matter than my noble and learned friend who preceded me on the Woolsack, and that was one good reason why I thought it appropriate that he should introduce this Bill, and I am heartily glad that he has done so.
  The Government do not want to filch any credit that is due elsewhere. But there is another reason. I hope it may be possible that Bills of legal reforms which are wholly divested of any Party complexion may by the mutual co-operation of both sides in both Houses of Parliament be accelerated. I have myself during the last ten years supported not a few Bills introduced by my noble and learned friend, which unfortunately have not been placed on the Statute Book. If this Bill reaches the House of Commons we shall not only give it every assistance, but I am authorised to say that His Majesty's Government will do their best for it, as if it were their own Bill, and they will star it on the Order Paper in the House of Commons, so that it may have a chance of passing into law.
  It is, of course impossible to undertake that any Bill should be passed, but I am authorised by the Prime Minister to say that we mean to do our best, in the case of this admirable Bill, to attain that end. There will be some Amendments proposed by the Government. I do not intend to refer to any particular Amendment now, for I think it best to reserve any reference to the matter till the Committee stage. But this I can say, that the Amendments proposed will not be in the slightest degree antagonistic to the Bill, but, on the contrary, are intended for no other
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  purpose than to contribute to the usefulness of this essentially useful measure.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

  FOREIGN SEAMEN IN BRITISH SHIPS.
  EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether it is their intention to introduce into the proposed Bill for amending the Merchant Shipping Act a clause relating to the employment of foreign seamen on British ships; and if so, what the nature of that clause is to be, and whether such clause will make it obligatory on shipowners and masters to employ none other than British seamen on their ships.
  I venture to submit that the time has arrived when the earnest attention of His Majesty's Government should be given to this important question, with a view to dealing with it as speedily and as effectively as possible. The Subject has been mentioned in Parliament on more than one occasion, but no Government has hitherto attempted to find any remedy for a condition of things which should never have been tolerated by a nation which has always claimed to be the first maritime power in the world. We have to face the fact that over 40,000 foreigners are employed in our mercantile marine and in our fishing fleets, and I think it will be generally admitted that in the event of our being involved in a war at sea this foreign element in our merchant service might constitute a very grave danger, and would certainly give rise to serious complications.
  But, my Lords, I think there are other evils in the present system which are, perhaps, of a still more pressing nature. One, I think, lies in the fact that over 40,000 British subjects are being kept out of employment on our ships; another is that the safety of our ships, their passengers and cargo, are being endangered constantly under the present system. I remember a few years ago being told by the captain of a British ship that, besides himself there were only two

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  Englishmen on board, one being the first mate and the other the chief engineer. The rest of the crew was composed of men of all countries, and he added that if an accident should occur he feared the very worst results from his inability to make his crew understand his orders.
  I think it will be within the recollection of the House that quite recently, at an inquiry held by the Board of Trade, the Court drew attention to the fact that within one month there had been three inquiries during which it had transpired that certain wrecks had occurred and that the deck hands on those ships were chiefly foreigners who did not even know the English language. I think this is a state of things which should be remedied at the earliest possible opportunity, and I sincerely hope that we shall hear this evening from the noble Lord who represents the Board of Trade that it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to deal with this matter at an early date.
  The EARL of GRANARD: My Lords, I have had an opportunity of consulting the President of the Board of Trade upon the noble Earl's Question, and I find that the Bill to amend the Merchant Shipping Act which was referred to in His Majesty's gracious Speech has not as yet been finally settled. I gather that it is likely to come before the other House in the course of a very few days. It is not in my power at present to give the noble Earl the information he has asked for, but I am in a position to inform him that the opinions which he represents are fully appreciated by the President of the Board of Trade and by His Majesty's Government as a whole.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord TWEEDMOUTH): My Lords, may I just add a word to what has fallen from my noble friend who has just replied on behalf of the Board of Trade? I do so with no discourtesy to the noble Earl who asked the Question, nor with any desire to check the intelligent interest which he takes in this most important subject—a subject which is receiving the attention of His Majesty's Government; but I do not think that it is quite according to precedent, or, indeed, very con-
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  venient, that His Majesty's Government should be questioned as to the exact terms of a clause in a Bill which is going to be introduced within a very few days. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask that noble Lords and Members of the other House who are interested in such a measure should wait till the Bill is produced and see what is proposed. I can assure the noble Earl that Mis Majesty's Government do take the keenest interest in this subject. We think it is most important that we should, as far as possible, have our ships manned by men of our own race. But the exact details of the Bill I think we have a right to keep secret until the measure is brought before the House.
  House adjourned at ten minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.