Lords Sitting of 29 June 1906

EARLDOM OF NORFOLK.
Message to the Commons for leave for the proper officer to attend the Committee for Privileges of this House in order to his being examined as a witness, and that he do bring with him the Journals of the House of Commons in order to their being produced before the said Committee.
The Lord Castlemaine took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: St. John's (Westminster) Improvement; Cork City Railways and Works.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Midland Railway Bill. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
London and South Western Railway Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Epsom and Ewell Gas Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Uxbridge Gas Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Waterford Corporation and Bridge Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4.) Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Poole Corporation Water Bill. Moved, That the order made on the 26th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought
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from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 19th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
London County Council (Money) Bill Moved, That the order made on the 26th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 19th day of June next," be dispensed with; agreed to.
Barry Railway Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Sutton, Southcoates, and Drypool Gas Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
London County Council (Money) Bill. To be read 2a on Thursday next.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill; Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Water Provisional Order Bill. Moved, That the order made on the 26th day of March last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 19th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2a; agreed to; Bills read 2a accordingly.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders No. 6) Bill. Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
Sea Fisheries Provisional Order Bill. House in Committee (according to order). Bill reported without Amendment. Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill; Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill. Committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
Water Provisional Order Bill. Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Local Government Provisional Order (Housing of Working Classes) Bill (No. 145); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill (No. 146); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill (No. 147). Brought from the Commons and read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  Sixtieth Report of the Commissioners in Lunacy, 1906. Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  PUBLIC WORKS LOAN BILL.
  Thirty-first Annual Report of the Public Works Loan Board, 1905–1906; with appendices.
  Eighty-fourth Report of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, dated 29th June, 1906.

  POST OFFICE (MONEY ORDERS).
  The Money Order Amendment (No. 1) Regulations, 1906, dated 22nd June, 1906.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  METROPOLITAN AMBULANCE SERVICE.
  Petition for inquiry as to desirability of; of borough of Kensington; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (NO. 2) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  ARMY QUALIFYING EXAMINATION.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government if they are aware that the next Army qualifying examination is fixed for September
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  18th, a date which coincides with the termination of the public schools summer holidays, and one that appears to be utterly inconvenient to everyone concerned. This is a most unfortunate time to have an examination, because it would spoil the boys' holidays. It is obvious that boys preparing for an examination could not be away from their work all that time, and the parents would either have to engage tutors during the holidays to work the boys up for the examination or else the boys would have to go to crammers. This would be most unfair to the public schools when they are endeavouring to pass boys direct into the Army and to do away altogether with the undesirable process of cramming. The time fixed for the examination is also one at which the masters as well as the boys are away, and I hope, therefore, that His Majesty's Government will alter the date by at least one month if not two months, so as to enable the boys to continue their work at school when they get back.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH): My Lords, this Question only appeared on the Paper this morning, and I think my noble friend has forgotten that to-day is a holiday in the War Office. I have had no opportunity, therefore, of inquiring into the matter at all, or of communicating with any one upon it. If the noble Earl will postpone his Question until after Monday, I will communicate the answer to him direct, or, if he considers it desirable to put it again in the House, I shall be glad, after looking into the circumstances, to give him a reply
  THE EARL OF MAYO: I certainly will not trouble the House by putting the Question again if the answer which the noble Earl communicates to me is satisfactory, but if it is not I must be allowed to raise the matter again.

  SOUTH AFRICAN LABOUR.
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether there is any truth in the rumour that they contemplate reintroducing indiscriminate labour recruiting for the Witwatersrand from Portuguese territory; and to move for Papers. As your Lordships probably

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  know, the recruiting of natives in South Africa for the mines has been undertaken by a body called the Wit waters rand Native Labour Association. The system of that Association has been substituted for one which prevailed before the war, and in a few words I will explain to your Lordships what went on before the Association was formed.
  Up to 1889 the demand for labour on the Witwatersrand was not excessive, and although even then the Transvaal natives themselves did not come forward in large numbers, still there was an ample, or more than an ample, supply of labour coming through the East coast ports. That prevailed for some two or three years. The natives paid their own expenses to get to Johannesburg, and the rate of pay was, I believe, Is. a day. But about 1889 or 1890, the demand for labour suddenly increased, and increased considerably, and the mining companies had to send out men as recruiting agents. These agents were paid a commission per head for each native brought in, as well as their travelling expenses. That went on quite satisfactorily for a few years, until the demand for labour became really severe, and there grew up a system of monstrous tyranny on the part of these labour agents and touts.
  These men were carrying on a nefarious trade with natives on their way to the Witwatersrand, and to such an extent was this done, that the mining companies were very heavily mulcted in order to get the labour they required. The fees to the agents rose to as much as £4 and £4 15s. 0d. per head, and the travelling expenses also increased. At the same time the wages of the boys themselves very nearly doubled. The iniquities committed were really serious. In order to prevent this practice by the touts of waylaying natives who were on their way to the mines the Pass Law was adopted by the Boer Government, but it was so inefficiently administered that natives were unable to get the passes which they should have had, and were punished for not having them. Then the war came, and large numbers of natives left the Transvaal. Whilst the war was going on the mining companies decided to form an association to put a stop to the depredations of these labour touts and to improve the conditions under which the natives were recruited and passed from
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  the frontier to Johannesburg. It was principally for this reason that the association was formed.
  The association is practically a company, but one which distributes no profits. It is really a co-operative society for the purpose of obtaining labour in the most legitimate way, and its work is carried on under circumstances which should beeopen to inspection by Government and should be of the best possible character. That is the system which prevails now, but there is a rumour, which is supported by cabled information from Johannesburg, that His Majesty's Government contemplate making a change and setting up competition by giving licences to other persons to recruit. Your Lordships will understand that about 60 per cent, or more of the Kaffir labour on the mines comes from Portuguese territory, and it is there that the principal servants of the association are employed. These are men well known in South Africa, and of the highest respectability. Of course, a certain number of those persons who were engaged in obtaining labour before the war did not get employment under the association. There are, therefore, a number of men in South Africa who are indignant at having lost their occupation, and are jealous of the association.
  Any stone is good enough to throw at the mining companies just now, encouraged as these people have been by some Members of His Majesty's Government; and one of the points of attack during the last few months has been the system of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. It has been declared that their system is ineffective, and that the mining houses deliberately avoid getting as much native labour as is possible in order to bolster up the Chinese importation. Whatever faults may have been attributed to the mining companies, it is never suggested that they are not astute persons. They would be extremely foolish if they did not get as much Kaffir labour as possible, because it is cheaper than Chinese labour, and it is the fact that at this moment there are crushing mines which cannot get as much labour as they could wish.
  The form of attack on the association is that they are not recruiting Kaffirs as successfully as they could if they chose, and that it is only necessary to give these

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  licences to other people and thousands of additional Kaffirs will be forthcoming. That has been gone into most carefully on the spot by the secretary of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, who himself was a Government servant at one time, and he has shown most successfully in an elaborate report that these promises are quite fallacious. It was demonstrated before the Native Labour Commission by the same gentleman that promises of producing Kaffir labour which had been made by various people were, when put to the test, not fulfilled.
  The point upon which I lay stress is this. The result of the introduction of this system has been a vast improvement to the Kaffirs themselves. Under the old system, anybody who could get a licence was empowered to go across country, pick up natives and bring them to the Witwatersrand, regardless of their comfort during the journey. All that has been changed. Every Kaffir recruited in Portuguese East Africa has to be brought to one place, where he is medically inspected to make sure that he is fit for the trying climate, where he is informed by a Government official of the conditions of service, and where he is supplied with blankets so that his journey up to the higher altitudes may be made in reasonable comfort. All these beneficial changes have been brought about by the system of the Witwatersrand Native Labour I Association, and I do deprecate most strongly, without His Majesty's Government being advised from the other side to the contrary, any idea that may be lurking in their minds of setting up competition in this matter. The association will not suffer by it; it is too strong; but the person who I am afraid will suffer is the Kaffir, who will run the risk of being tempted away by men who are not as reliable, not as responsible, and not as respectable as the officers of the association, and who may mislead him by promises which may not be fulfilled.
  I should be glad if the noble Earl could tell us what are the intentions of His Majesty's Government in regard to this matter. If they are not prepared to accept the responsibility of deciding upon the question of Chinese labour, why are they taking upon themselves
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  the responsibility of deciding upon a question of this kind? The people on the spot are just as good judges of what they require in this matter as on the Chinese question. In a speech which the noble Earl made the other day he advocated the policy of trusting the man on the spot. I should like to know whether Lord Selborne has reported upon the question of the efficiency of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, and whether he advises the setting up of licencees to compete with the association. I should be glad to know whether he has consulted a very eminent Portuguese official, lately the Governor-General in Portuguese East Africa and now the-Minister for the Colonies at Lisbon, who. has an intimate knowledge of what is best for Portuguese East Africa, and who, I am told, has the very strongest objection to recruiting being handed over to any one but a strong association recognised by the Government, and whose-operations are, so to speak, inspected by Government. I hope the noble Earl will be able to give satisfactory answers to-these questions. I can assure him that this is a serious matter, and I trust that if any papers have been received upon the subject he will consent to lay them on the Table.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ELGIN): My Lords, to the Question of my noble friend as it appears on the Paper, I think the briefest and most accurate answer would be a simple negative. His Majesty's Government do not contemplate reintroducing indiscriminate labour recruiting for the Witwatersrand from Portuguese territory, and therefore I do not think it is necessary for me to comment upon, or add anything to, the description which the noble Lord has given of what took place before the war under the system he condemns. I might just say that, so far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, their policy would essentially be directed to the improvement of the condition of the natives, and to safeguarding their rights, and would certainly not revert to practices such as the noble Lord has described.
  The noble Lord has told us of the origin of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association and how they came to take up the recruiting of native labour

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  for the mines. He described the association very appropriately as a co-operative society. I venture to think that a very good description because the whole essence of its position was that it represented the mine owners and those interested in the working of the mines for which this labour was recruited. It it is essentially a voluntary association. It does not depend on any official sanction; it was the deliberate action of the mine owners themselves to combine for this object. I am not prepared to deny that having a single agency for a purpose of this kind has considerable advantages. But all depends on the association having at its back the force by which it was originated; and if it is found that there are substantial interests connected with the mines of the same nature as those for which the association was formed, or that some of those who took part in the formation of the association are not satisfied with the state of things as they now exist, then the position of this cooperative or voluntary society becomes considerably modified.
  I was rather surprised that the noble Lord made no reference to an answer which was given on behalf of His Majesty's Government ten days ago in another place,† and as it very precisely defined the position we take up, I would ask your Lordships to allow me to read at. The question was—
  "Whether the Government are aware that the sole right to recruit Kaffirs is enjoyed by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association; whether they are prepared to put an end to this monopoly; and whether they will throw open recruiting of Kaffirs to other responsible persons or bodies."
  The Answer given by the Undersecretary was—
  "The Witwatersrand Native Labour Association is a voluntary union of all or most of the principal mineowners to regularise and control the recruiting of native labourers for the mines—"
  LORD HARRIS: My information is that all the mining groups are in cooperation.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: I am quite willing to take it that they were at one time.
  LORD HARRIS: They are now.
  † See (4) Debates, clviii., 1363.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: The reply given on behalf of the Government proceeded—
  "It occupies a commanding position so far as recruiting in British South Africa is concerned, and enjoys a practical monoply in respect of British Central Africa and Portuguese East Africa. Although this arrangement constitutes a great improvement upon the free recruiting system which it has replaced, it is not itself without serious disadvantages. His Majesty's Government are not unwilling to permit recruiting on equal terms by other bodies; but their statuz, substance, and responsibility must be clearly established beforehand in each particular case, in order that there may be no risk of the natives being deceived by extravagant promises or ill-used on their way to the mines."
  I hope your Lordships will understand from that answer that there is no intention of considering recruiting by agents who may have lost their occupation in consequence of the changes that have taken place since the war. What is in contemplation is to meet the objection of substantial mining interests which are not contented with the association, and do not consider it, as the noble Lord does, as representative of the whole of those interests.
  I would remind your Lordships that this question of recruiting in Portuguese East Africa depends on an Agreement which was concluded between Lord Milner as High Commissioner and the Governor-General of Mozambique in December, 1901. In the second Article of that Agreement it is laid down that the collectors of labour are to be accepted by both parties, and I maintain that in the Answer which I have read, that provision is provided for, and that an inquiry into the status, substance, and responsibility of the persons who apply for permission to recruit does carry out on our side the conditions of that Article.
  For the rest the matter remains with the Portuguese Government. It is for the Portuguese Governor-General, and for him alone, to give permits for recruiters. Under these circumstances we have had to consider the necessity of communications, not only with the High Commissioner, as the noble Lord suggested, but also possibly with the Portuguese authorities. Those communications are still proceeding, and I am therefore not in a position to give a final and definite answer as to what may be the outcome. Nor am I able to say with

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  precision what Papers I shall be able to lay upon the Table of the House, but I can assure the noble Lord that His Majesty's Government have nothing to conceal in this matter. They are simply working out the policy described in the answer given in the other House, and which I have quoted. I shall be quite prepared, when the time comes, to give your Lordships any Papers in connection with this subject that I can reasonably be expected to produce.
  House adjourned at live minutes past Five o'clock, till Monday next, Eleven o'clock.