Lords Sitting of 16 July 1906

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—Sutton District Water.
Also the Certificate that no Standing g Orders are applicable to the following Bill:— Local Government Provisional Order (No. 10).
And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with:—South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company.
The same were ordered to lie on the e Table.
London Squares and Enclosures Bill [H.L.]. The Marquess Camden consented to the Bill.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill—(Barton-upon-Irwell Order). A petition of Messrs. Baker and Company of 54, Parliament Street, Westminster, Parliamentary Agents, praying for leave to present a petition of the Barton-upon-Irwell Rural District Council, praying to be heard by council against the Order, although the time limited by Standings Order No. 93 for presenting such petition has expired; read, and ordered to lie on the Table, and Standing Order No. 93 to be considered To-morrow in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said petition.
South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Bill. Examiner's Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Thursday next.
Derby Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments.
Buckhaven, Methil, and Innerleven Burgh Extension Bill [H.L.]. Reported with Amendments.
Water Provisional Order Bill. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the Promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill; The orders of the 29th of June and Thursday last discharged. Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.
Great Northern Railway Bill. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The orders made on Tuesday and Thursday last discharged, and Bill committed for To-morrow.
South Lincolnshire Water Bill. Moved, That the order made on the 26th day of March last, " That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 19th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed.
London Squares and Enclosures Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
London United Tramways Bill. Watford Gas Bill. Twickenham and Teddington Electric Supply Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Devon, etc.) Bill [H.L.]. Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Kesteven, etc.) Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Newport Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
Scottish Union and National Insurance Company Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Cheltenham Gas Bill. Huddersfield Corporation Bill. London and South Western Railway Bill. London County Buildings Bill. Metropolitan Water

1243
Board Bill. North East London Railway Bill. Peterborough Gas Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Moved, That the order made on the 26th day of March last, " That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 19th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Order of the day for the Third Reading read.
Moved, "That this Bill be now read 3a"—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, the object of my Amendment is to reinstate in the Bill the clauses which were struck out by your Lordships' Committee, giving powers to the London County Council to establish an ambulance service. These powers were unanimously granted in the House of Commons, and when the matter was before the London County Council there was almost unanimity with regard to the suggestion; at all events, the scheme as put forward by the London County Council, and as it came before the Committee of the House of Lords, was not divided against. Your Lordships Committee, of course, is as much entitled to its opinion as the Committee of the House of Commons, but I would venture to suggest that where you have something like unanimity in the London County Council with regard to a particular measure and where you have a Committee of the House of Commons unanimously approving of the proposal, there ought to be rather strong reasons given for your Lordships differing both from the London County Council and from the House of Commons.
I confess that from one point of view I rise with some reluctance to propose this Amendment. I do not wish in any way to damp the ardour for economy that has been shown by the noble Earl opposite, and by other noble
1244
Lords on that side of the House lately when discussing the London County Council Money Bill. I am exceedingly glad that that Bill should have been discussed in your Lordships' House, and I am delighted to find that many noble Lords on the opposite side are now advocates of economy and sound finance. I have no doubt that this championship of economy on Lord Camperdown's part will be as permanent as it is sincere, and that when the time comes for his own Party to be in office he will make suggestions to them and criticise their proceedings in the same impartial spirit. With regard to this suggested ambulance service, I have had some difficulty, after reading with great care the evidence placed before your Lordships' Committee, in understanding the reason why the Committee disapproved of the proposal, and that is partly the reason why I have put down this Amendment. I wish to give the noble Earl an opportunity of stating the views he holds on the matter. I cannot quite make out whether the noble Earl objects to this expenditure because it is too small or because it is too large. I imagine that the position of the noble Earl is this, that the London County Council ought to have taken one of two courses. It ought either to have gone in for a complete system, or it ought not to have asked for any powers for an ambulance service at all.
I quite admit that there is something to be said for the London County Council providing London with a complete ambulance service, but you must recollect that the circumstances of London are some what peculiar. We have in London various voluntary bodies which to a certain extent do provide ambulance facilities, and we felt that if we rushed in and covered the whole field, probably those voluntary systems, if they did not cease to exist altogether, might dwindle, and then the ratepayers would be saddled with the whole cost of the ambulance service. Our proposal is to spend only £5,200 for the first year on the ambulance service. It was suggested in the Committee, and it has been suggested on the London County Council that we ought to be in a position to know exactly how much it is proposed ultimately to spend on this system. As to that it is almost impossible to give a trustworthy estimate, but we have done

1245
our best. The noble Earl had has a witness before his Committee, Sir Shirley Murphy, our principal Officer of Health. Sir Shirley Murphy gave a detailed statement with regard to the possible cost of an efficient ambulance service of twenty-one stations in London, in the event of the total failure of the voluntary help which London now receives.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The noble Lord will remember that that was, as Sir Shirley Murphy admitted, a rough estimate of his own. It had never been tested in any way.
LORD MONKSWELL: I know it was a rough estimate, but Sir Shirley Murphy, who is the principal officer in this matter, prepared the estimate to the best of his ability after going carefully into the matter, and I do not suppose that if we had another estimate it would differ very much. I would venture to suggest that in this matter the question of the coordination of our expenditure hardly arises. In the first place, the expenditure is by no means big. We ask only for £5,200 for the first year, with a possible increase to £30,000. This possible increase to £30,000 is the outside estimate, for it is certain that the City will have its own ambulance service, and we have offers of motor ambulances from voluntary associations. Surely, in a question of this kind it is very difficult to wait until we have coordinated all our expenditure.
We have done our best for three or four years to suggest to other people that they should supply London with an an efficient ambulance service. They have never done so, and the result is that the ambulance service in London is now certainly very inefficient. As to that I think there can be absolutely no doubt in the minds of those your Lordships at all events were members of the Committee, and noble Lords who know the circumstances will admit that our witness, Sir William Collins, did not exaggerate Sir William Collins was asked by Mr. Lushington to tell their Lordships what these voluntary associations were, and he replied—
" There is the St. John's Ambulance Association, the British, the Bischoffsheim Ambulance Service or the Hospitals' Association, the
1246
Volunteer Medical Staff Corps, and the Police. Certain boards of guardians, certain hospitals, and one or two railway companies have ambulances of their own, and there are one or two trading companies that supply ambulances. I can state to their Lordships, if they desire, what the various voluntary associations do. The St. John's Ambulance Association deals with the training of men in the work of first aid and ambulance work; they have some twenty-five ambulance stations in London, with litters and stretchers, and other ambulance appliances, but with three exceptions there are no men on duty at those stations. The three exceptions are, at St. John's Gate, St. Paul's Cathedral, and St. Clement Danes; but I believe there are not men on duty constantly throughout the night at those stations. Then there is the Bischoffsheim Service, which is a branch of the Hospitals' Association, and was established in 1890 by Mr. H. L. Bischoffsheim, which service consists in placing hand ambulances and stores at various fire brigade stations and cab ranks, which are available for use by the police, who have a key to the station; but no one is on duty there to work the ambulance. The Volunteer Medical Staff Corps is primarily a military organisation, which on special occasions like public processions attends to casualties and accidents which occur in the streets. The County Council on several occasions of public processions has worked in association with them, in providing temporary shelters and accommodation. Then the police possess hand ambulances and wheeled litters; but they have no hone ambulances in constant readiness; the only horsed ambulances are at Rochester Row Police Station, Carter Street and Stoke Newington, and those apparently are not kept in readiness, and the arrangement for hiring hive to be made by the individual who desires the use of the ambulance. They were originally private property, but they have been taken in hand by the police."
The Metropolitan Asylums Board has been approached with a view of supplying the want. The Metropolitan Asylums Board deals principally with infectious diseases, and I should have thought it extremely desirable that ambulances for infectious diseases should be under absolutely different management from other ambulances, or, at all events, that the same staff should not deal with one as deals with the other. The Metropolitan Asylums Board sent to the County Council a communication on February 27th, 1904. They were then contemplating extending their ambulance service, which had hitherto been chiefly confined to the removal of cases of infectious disease. But their extension was not to include dealing with street accidents or casualties, and they proposed to make a charge of 7s. 6d. in respect of each removal. Therefore what they had in view was not to meet the general case

1247
Then my noble friend Viscount Knutsford was approached. He is connected with the St. John's Ambulance Association, and he expressed his desire that we should proceed and improve the ambulance service of London. Sir Kenneth Barrington, who was then actively connected with it, expressed similar views, and Mr. Bischoffscheim, of the Hospitals Association, has always been favourable to our proposals and has himself offered to provide motor ambulances if the Council is entrusted with the power of mantaining them. Such is the position with regard to the ambulance service in London.
Now, let us see how far that service is efficient. Sir William Collins went very carefully into that. He said that in four weeks he had evidence of some 1,949 cases in the chief London hospitals, and that deducting those which arrived on their own legs and taking only those that came in some kind of conveyance or other, there were 947 more or less serious casualty cases and cases of illness, and only 289, or about 31 per cent., were brought to the nine hospitals in any kind of ambulance, while more than two-thirds arrived in hansoms, four-wheelers, vans, or other unsuitable means of conveyance. Then, again, he made further investigation at the London Temperance Hospital from August, 1901, to January, 1902. He found that out of 203 cases conveyed to the hospital otherwise than on their own legs, 48 were brought in four-wheeled cabs, 102 in hansoms, 22 in vans or carts, 3 in bath-chairs, one in a barrow, 19 in ambulances, and 8 on hand-stretchers; so that 150 cases out of 203 arrived in cabs. And he added—
" I have known many cases of unnecessary pain and danger and injury result from putting patients with injured limbs or with undetermined internal injuries into four - wheelers or hansom cabs."
Sir William Collins also stated that communications had been received from Hammersmith, Fulham, Battersea, Poplar, Wandsworth, Greenwich, Bethnal Green, Finsbury, Woolwich, Lambeth, Hackney, and Kensington urging the council to consider the desirability of establishing an ambulance service for London; and that the Council had also received deputations from medical men, including the president of the College of Physicians,
1248
the president of the College of Surgeons, and many other medical men, who urged it to proceed on the lines on which the Council was now asking Parliament to give it power. It cannot, in these circumstances, be urged that it is not necessary to improve the ambulance service in London.
Let me ask your Lordships to consider what has been done by other municipalities in providing ambulances. Sir William Collins was asked by Mr. Lushington to give the various large towns where there was a service now in the hands of the municipal authorities, and he replied—
" There are rapid ambulance services at Liverpool, Birkenhead, Manchester, Oldham, Bradford, Newcastle, Huddersfield, Bolton, Blackburn, Bristol, Gateshead, Burnley, Hull, Sheffield, Leeds, and Wolverhampton, worked in association with the fire brigades in some cases, but in all cases, I believe, under municipal control."
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Those are all police authorities.
LORD MONKSWELL: That is perfectly true, but I do not quite see what that has to do with London's not having an efficient ambulance service. Is London to wait until the police are under the control of the County Council before it has an efficient ambulance service? I am of opinion that the police should be under the County Council, but I do not think we should wait until then before we have our ambulance service put into an efficient condition. Moreover, we do not think that the police are the proper body to have control of this service.
The Committee over which my noble friend Lord Camperdown presided has succeeded in pleasing nobody, but in displeasing everybody by the- decision at which it has arrived. The City only opposed our scheme on the ground of rating. They did not object to establishing a service in London so long as they were not rated. I believe we can come to a satisfactory arrangement with the City with regard to expense. I do not think that blocks the way at all. The proposal, I believe, is that in so far as the City ambulance service is satisfactory the City should be given a certain grant. At all events, I understand that the City is perhaps as much distressed as any one that these clauses have been

1249
struck out. I have merely to say, in conclusion, that, although I know that your Lordships are not very ready to interfere with the decisions of your Committees, it did appear to me that this was a matter of so much public importance that it was my duty to obtain a statement from the noble Earl as to the reasons why his Committee came to the decision to strike out these Clauses.
Amendment moved.
" In the preamble, page 3, line 36, after the word 'made' to insert ' and whereas it is expedient that the council should be empowered to establish and maintain, or to contribute toward or otherwise aid in the establishment and maintenance of an ambulance service for dealing with cases of accident and illness in the streets and other public places in the county.' "
" In Clause 2, page 6, line 13, after the word 'Drainage' to insert 'Part IV.— Ambulance Service.'; in page 6, line 14, to leave out ' IV. ' and to insert' V. '; in line 15, to leave out 'V.' and to insert ' VI.'; in line 17, to leave out' VI.' and to insert ' VII.'; and in page 19, line 5, after the word ' works ' to insert ' Part IV.—Ambulance Service.' 24. It shall be lawful for the council to establish and maintain, or to contribute towards the cost of or otherwise aid in establishing and maintaining; an ambulance service for dealing with cases of accident and illness in the streets or other public places in the county. 25.—(1) The council may for the purposes of this part of this Act, and as and when they may think requisite for carrying such purposes into effect: (a) Appropriate, hold, and use any lands or buildings for the time being vested in ' them for any purpose for which such lands or buildings are not required; (b) take on lease, purchase by agreement, or otherwise acquire any lands or buildings within the county;(c)erect., or cause to be erected, and maintain, repair, and manage on any lands so appropriated or acquired any buildings suitable for the said purposes; (d) adapt, furnish, and equip any buildings so appropriated, acquired, or erected. (2) The council may from time to time sell, lease, or let any lands or buildings accquired by or vested in them for the purposes: of this part of this Act, and not required for such purposes. (3) The council may for the purposes of this part of this Act contract with any company or persons for the establishment and maintenance of telegraphic, telephonic, or other suitable means of communication: between the several buildings used for the purposes of this part of this Act, and between any of such buildings and other parts of the county. 26.—(1) For the purposes of this part of this Act the council may employ and pay such officers and servants as they may I think expedient for the efficient conduct of the service authorised by this part of this Act. (2) The council may from time to time provide and maintain such ambulances and other vehicles to be drawn by hand, or by animal or electrical or other mechanical power, as they
1250
may think requisite for the accommodation and conveyance of persons meeting with accidents or seized with illness in the streets or public places in the county. Provided that any electrical power used for moving any such vehicle shall be entirely contained in and carried along with such vehicle in such a manner that no magnetic or other influence is created which is likely to affect injuriously any telegraphic line of the Postmaster-General.— (Lord Monkswell.)
LORD LEIGH: My Lords, it is greatly to be hoped that your Lordships will accept the Amendment which has just been moved by the noble Lord opposite. It is recognised that a rapid ambulance service, motor or horse, is wanted for London, in place of the hand-litters and four - wheeled cabs which at present constitute the only service to convey wounded persons to the hospitals or to their homes. That conveyance in four-wheeled cabs causes intense agony, and very frequently turns an ordinary fracture into a compound fracture, is the opinion of many medical authorities, among others Sir William Church, and it may be mentioned that many of the most eminent medical practitioners in London have formed themselves into a body under the name of the Metropolitan Street Ambulance Association, their object being to revise the ambulance service of London.
No other city at all approaching London in size is now without a rapid ambulance service. The system originated in New York, and rapidly spread to Boston and Washington and all the principal cities of the United States, and then it was adopted in Paris, Berlin, and Vienna, and, as the noble Lord has informed us, it has been copied in very many provincial towns and cities. One thing about the ambulance service to be noted in London is that in only three police stations are there any horsed ambulances available, and they can only be obtained on payment. When once you get to payment, and the wounded person has to wait until the money is found for his removal, the system falls to the ground. It is also to be noted that the London County Council only adopted the idea of rapid ambulances when it had been rejected by all the other public bodies in London. It was not only refused by the hospitals; it was refused by the police, by the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and by the

1251
Fire Brigade, and then at length the London County Council adopted the idea. As regards the City, as my noble friend mentioned, the City has a system of its own in contemplation, and there is no sort of reason why the London County Council should not work harmoniously with the City. It is greatly to be hoped that the Amendment of my noble friend will meet with the approval of your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, as I was Chairman of the Committee which rejected this proposal put forward by the London County Council, your Lordships will no doubt expect me to say a few words in explanation of the course which we pursued. But before I do so I must take exception to a remark made by Lord Monkswell at the close of his speech to the effect that the City Corporation were displeased at this scheme's being rejected. I do not know what authority the noble Lord has for making that statement. I can only say that their representative spoke to me as I was coming into the House in quite a contrary sense. The noble Lord seems to forget that the City Corporation appeared in opposition to the scheme, and that if the scheme had not been rejected their opposition would have had to be heard and was directed to the principle of the Bill. They said that they themselves had a scheme, not merely in contemplation but in a more advanced stage than this proposed scheme of the London County Council, and they objected. They stated that they had already 1,400 police who would administer a scheme of ambulances in the City, and they objected to being rated also as part of the County of London for this purpose.
The noble Lord omitted to state one thing which is very relevant indeed, and that is that the Home Office is opposed to the scheme. A report by the Home Office, dated March 6th, was laid before our Committee objecting to this scheme. It is an official report, and the Home Office states that it is a question whether additional facilities required would not be more efficiently and economically provided by the development of the existing services. The Home Office goes on to say that ambulance litters on wheels are provided at every police station, and that the
1252
Secretary of State is informed that no difficulty is experienced by the police— and remember the police are the persons who come first into contact with accidents —in dealing promptly with cases of accident or illness in the streets. It would in any case, the Secretary of State thinks, be undesirable to have two public services covering almost exactly the same ground each acting independently of the other. The Secretary of State pointed out in this connection that the police were obviously in the best position for dealing with such cases, as they were on the spot and could attend to them without delay, and that the police service could be extended without much difficulty and expense by the provision of additional ambulances. Therefore the Home Office is opposed to the scheme, and I understand that the Home Office is on the point of communicating with the County Council and suggesting a conference with, them on this matter.
Now, my Lords, let us come to this Bill, because it is the Bill that we are dealing with and not the general question of ambulances. Everybody desires to have a good ambulance service, but the question is, by whom is it to be provided, and whether or not the proposed scheme is a good one. That is what came before the Committee. Let me tell your Lordships, in a few words, what has happened in Parliament in regard to this matter. Last session the London County Council made up their minds that they would proceed with a Bill, and their General Purposes Committee put forward a proposal to have one principal and seven district stations, which were to cost something like £13,000 a year. The Finance Committee asked them if they could give any estimate as to the ultimate cost, and they replied that they could not. The Finance Committee thereupon requested them to prepare such an estimate. What did they do? They merely dropped the whole matter for six months and then brought up this Bill, which contained a proposal for two stations—not eight—at a cost of £5,000 a year. It is pretty obvious what the reason of that proposal was. I asked Sir William Collins whether he could say that it was a satisfactory proposal or one that could last for any time, and he said—
" No, it is only a tentative proposal that will cost £5,000 a year."

1253
He was then asked whether the Finance Committees were satisfied, and he said they had passed it, but were not, perhaps, entirely satisfied. Then I asked—
" Why did you propose eight stations last year and only two now?"
He replied that perhaps their scheme of the year before had been too ambitious. Then I asked whether this had any reference to the pecuniary objection which the Finance Committee took the previous year, and he replied—
" Yes, it has some reference to it, but it is not the special or, indeed, the only cause."
The London County Council propose to have two stations. They say they cannot give an exact estimate of what they are to cost, and they have no notion of what their scheme is ultimately to be. Indeed, they could not give us the faintest estimate of what the ultimate cost would be; and when the noble Lord says it may possibly ultimately cost £30,000 a year, I would point out that there is no reason, so far as this Bill was concerned, why the Council should not expend ,£300,000 a year if they saw fit.
Let us take the clauses. The noble Lord spoke about their intention to have two stations. That may be their intention, but that is not what is in the Kill. The clause which the noble Lord wishes to insert provides that—
" It shall be lawful for the Council to establish and maintain or to contribute towards the cost of or otherwise aid in establishing and maintaining an ambulance service."
That is all that is stated. They may use any lands or buildings for the time being vested in them for any of the purposes of the Bill, and they may erect or acquire any buildings suitable for the purpose. This is done out of revenue, and your Lordships will remember that all expenditure out of revenue by the London County Council is not subject to the approval of Parliament. I asked one of the witnesses—Sir William Collins, I think it was—whether they would not require land for this purpose and to expend capital. He replied that it was a revenue expenditure. I said—
" Surely a great deal of this is capital expenditure,"
and he replied that the Council had the land already. I asked him how he was going to provide buildings out of revenue, and
1254
he said they would be temporary buildings. He admitted that this was only the first experiment of a scheme, and he could not give me any estimate whatever, or any conjecture even, as to what the scheme was to be or what it was to cost.
I think I have said enough to show your Lordships that it was impossible to pass a scheme of this sort. There is no detail of any kind. This is a fair sample of the way in which the London County Council go about their business. The Highways Committee appoint a subcommittee to consider this matter; the subcommittee put forward a proposal; the Finance Committee object; the Highways Committee then withdraw the proposal for a time and again put forward a similar proposal, but when it comes to drawing up a Bill they take powers to incur any amount of expenditure which may seem fit. I do not see how a Committee of your Lordships' House could have passed such a scheme. That was our reason for rejecting it.
VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: My Lords, after what has been said by the Chairman of the Committee before whom this Bill was considered, your Lordships can hardly be asked to differ from the decision of the Committee. As one who has been interested for a long time in the ambulance service, having been Chairman of the St. John's Ambulance Association for some years, I should like to offer one or two observations and to suggest a matter for consideration during the ensuing year. I think it must be admitted on all hands that in a city like this, where the population is increasing by leaps and bounds, where the traffic also is increasing to such a great extent, and where there are accidents, not only every day or every hour, but every minute, in the streets, it is not creditable that we should be in a worse position than all the other great cities to which reference has been made, and that we should have no organised system of ambulances. I see great difficulties in handing this work over to the County Council, for the reasons which have been stated by Lord Camperdown, as well as that they have quite enough work on their hands.
But what I desire to have considered is whether there should not be a Bill introduced next year creating an ambulance board on which would be represented

1255
the Order of St. John of Jerusalem, all the hospitals and those other societies and associations that have supported ambulances, as well as representatives of the City and the Metropolitan boroughs, and the police. I think if you had an ambulance board of that kind it would have a double effect. In the first place, it would lessen expense by establishing an organised system, instead of having an overlapping of work by different bodies, and, in the second place, you would interest the public in the system, and thus, it may be hoped, lessen the expense of the Board by subscriptions from outsiders. I hope this suggestion may be taken into consideration, and that next year a Bill will be introduced with the assent of all who are interested in this very important question, and will receive the sanction of Parliament.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, I think I need only say one or two words about this Bill. At any rate, your Lordships will have gathered from the tenor of this debate that there is no difference of opinion on either side of the House as to the desirability of having an efficient ambulance service in London. The noble Earl the Chairman of the Committee stopped counsel and witnesses who were arguing in favour of an ambulance service by saying they were all agreed on that. The question before them was, who should provide an efficient system, and who should pay for it. Lord Leigh said that neither the police nor the fire brigade would have anything to do with it. I hope we shall hear a word presently from the noble Earl who represents the Homo Office in this House as to what are the views of the Home Office on the subject.
The question asked by Lord Monks-well, " Why should London wait? " is one which has been put to us on many other points, and I think it was the tenor of the debate a few nights ago in your Lordships' House that the tendency of the London County Council is, if anything, one of rather too great speed. I cannot help thinking that the London County Council and the question generally will take no harm by waiting until another session of Parliament. It seems to me that the proper course would be that some ommunication or conference should take
1256
place between the Government Department which has control of the London Police, the London Fire Brigade, and the-London County Council themselves, and if they see fit either to come to some arrangement for a joint management of the ambulance system or for the creation of an ambulance board, that will, I think, be a more satisfactory solution of the question than by rushing the matter in at this moment, and inserting these clauses, the financial effect of which is not at all agreed. I sincerely hope your Lordships will take time to consider the matter, and that we may have a well-matured and well-considered scheme for dealing with it next year.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, on behalf of His Majesty's Government I am unable to advise your Lordships to agree to the proposal of the noble Lord to reinsert the clause in the Bill. Your Lordships know quite well that it is within the power of this House to take such a step, but it would be a very unusual course to take on an occasion like the present. The chairman of this particular Committee is well known as one of the most experienced and careful Members of your Lordships' House, and His Majesty's Government, therefore, are unable to advise your Lordships to reverse the decision to which his Committee came. I venture to hope that the House will follow the same course with regard to another Amendment which is to be moved by the noble Earl (Lord Wemyss).
On behalf of the Home Office I have to say that in their opinion the scheme has not yet received that mature consideration which it should have before complete power is given to the London County Council in the matter. In the opinion of the Home Office another scheme for supplying ambulances to this city should not duplicate the present system, but rather supplement it; but under the clauses which were struck out of this Bill it was in the power of the London County Council to sweep aside the other agencies which exist at the present time and establish an entirely new system The opinion of the Secretary of State is that it would be better to follow the line of developing the present resources rather than by a revolutionary change to inaugurate an entirely new

1257
system. At the same time, the Home Office are not of opinion that improvement is impossible in this matter. They recognise fully that other countries have, perhaps, better ambulance services than we have, and they would be very anxious indeed, in co-operation with other public bodies which take an interest in the subject, to do what they could to improve the service in London.
I am afraid I cannot quite agree with the noble Lord who drew a somewhat melancholy picture of the condition of London at the present time in the matter of its ambulance service. There is a considerable amount of provision made already by the Metropolitan police; there are ambulances on wheels at every police station throughout the Metropolitan police district, and, further than that, there are also the necessary appliances for rendering first aid to the injured, and a very large number of the Metropolitan police force have obtained certificates from the St. John's Ambulance Association which enable them to render that first aid. I think it is a matter of great satisfaction that no leas than 6,082 members of the police force should be qualified to render first aid. Beyond that, I may say there are 240 litters at police stations, and forty other similar ambulances and appliances are placed in other central positions. The police stations do provide special facilities in the case of injured persons, because they are able, with the aid of the telephone, to get into direct communication with the hospitals, and warn them to prepare for really dangerous cases.
I do not think that in discussing the question of the ambulance service your Lordships should be allowed to forget that, in addition to those I have already mentioned, there are a very large number of ambulances which deal only with cases of infectious disease. Those are the property of the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and some 32,000 people made use of them during the year 1904. Those two services are entirely distinct, and the litters which are used by the Metropolitan police are never used for the cases which come under the purview of the Metropolitan Asylums Board. In looking at the ambulance provision of London as a whole, one should not forget the large
1258
number of ambulances in the possession of the Metropolitan Asylums Board.
The Secretary of State is of opinion that the time has come when further steps might well be taken in order to improve the present condition of the ambulance service, and he has, therefore, summoned a conference of the three bodies concerned—the London County Council, the Metropolitan police, and the Home Office—to consider what should be done in order to effect this improvement. It is not unlikely that a Committee from these three bodies will be formed to deal with the question as a whole, and to formulate some scheme. Meanwhile, it obviously would be unwise for your Lordships to interfere with any such scheme by reintroducing the clauses which the noble Lord wishes to restore in this Bill. I venture to hope, therefore, that your Lordships will not concur in the noble Lord's suggestion, and that next year, by the consent of all the bodies interested, a thoroughly sound system will be introduced which will meet with the approval of everyone concerned
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Might I suggest to the noble Earl, with reference to his last statement, that the Home Office should call the City Corporation into the conference? At the present time, according to their own statement, the City have a scheme which is in a somewhat advanced condition.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I will communicate that suggestion.
LORD MONKSWELL: As to my statement that the City authorities were in favour of my Amendment, I think I ought to mention that I obtained that information from persons who I thought were likely to know, and looking at the evidence I find the statement by Sir Ralph Littler, on behalf of the City, that rating is the only question at issue between the City and the London County Council, and that if the question of rating was settled the City would be willing that the London County Council should have these powers. Therefore I had every justification for my statement as to the position of the City. I think this discussion has done a great deal of good. I am very glad that the Home Office are going to call this

1259
conference, and I am sure it can only have this result, that next year the London County Council will be able to set up an efficient ambulance service. I cannot agree with the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees that we on the London County Council are in this matter going at too great a speed.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I did not say in this matter.
LORD MONKSWELL: I rather thought the noble Earl said that this was an instance of our going at too great a speed. Twelve months' delay will undoubtedly cause a great deal of preventable misery. I suggest that the Home Office are a little sanguine in supposing that the police deal in anything like an efficient manner with the provision of ambulances in cases of accidents. There is not one horsed ambulance under the command of the police which has persons in constant readiness to take charge of it. I hope the Home Office will not hug themselves with the belief that there are not very great improvements to be introduced into the present police scheme. It has also been suggested that we intend to sweep aside all the voluntary bodies which at present provide ambulance accommodation. The proof that we do not intend to do so is that we have specially committed ourselves on the Council only to spend £5,200 in the course of the first year. We intend to work as much as we possibly can in co-operation with the voluntary associations. In the circumstances, I will not press my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I move to leave out Clauses 27, 28, and 29 in Part V. Your Lordships had on this day week a very interesting, and, I hope, a very useful, discussion with regard to the Money Bill of the London County Council. In the Bill now before you there are three clauses which embrace the principle of municipal trading, and it is to these clauses that I specially direct your Lordships' attention. I think the clauses are objectionable as regards the private trader and as regards the ratepayer, and that they are not in the
1260
interest of the progress of the nation. As regards the private trader, if this Bill were to pass as it now stands it would practically oust all those who have to do with electrical fittings and wiring. It is proposed that fitting and wiring should be done by the local authorities.
There is a special clause to the effect that the borough councils are not to manufacture the fittings. But does any sane man doubt that next year or the year following, if you pass this now, there will be a Bill brought in to enable them to make these fittings? I venture to think that it is not in the interests of the nation that private trade should be driven out of the market by municipal or even State trading. That really is what is happening. As regards the ratepayer, he will be in great danger. I am old enough to recollect the day when every town was lighted, not by gas, but by oil. Suppose in those days you had had municipal authorities of the same ambitious character as the County Council. They would have had a fleet of whalers and would have brought their blubber here and made their own oil. Then came gas, and now electricity, and the cost of substituting these different supplies would have been saddled upon the shoulders of the ratepayers.
We are now perfectly satisfied with electric light, but the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition hit the right nail on the head when he said the other day that there is no limit to invention. What will happen? Some unknown illuminant may be introduced, and the electrical plant may become so much dead weight round the necks of the London ratepayers. I therefore venture to think that, in the interests of progress, of free trade, of private trade, and of the London ratepayer, this municipal trading ought not to be allowed. What does this trading mean? You have now at the head of the Local Government Board Mr. John Burns. What is Mr. Burns's view of municipal trading? Why, that everything in the shape of production and distribution should be in the hands of a labour-governed State. Therefore, I hold that every step in this direction is a step in the direction of State omnipotence. During a discussion some years ago at

1261
the Society of Arts, I put this question to Mr. Burns—
" Do you, or do you not, mean that all the instruments of production are to be in the hands of a labour-governed State?"
Mr. Burns simply bowed his head and said " Yes." Therefore, whatever you do in this direction is leading to this end.
How does this question of municipal trading affect national progress? You are always in the infancy of invention. You have progressed hitherto in this way —Science discovers and invents, and public enterprise has taken up the invention and speculated upon it. But if, when the invention succeeds, it is to be seized by the State progress will be stopped, because if this is generally done no one will take up inventions. Therefore on this ground I respectfully ask your Lordships to reject those clauses. The discussions in your Lordships' House have been most useful in showing up the finance and general proceedings of the London County Council, but you want more check upon the action of that body. I That check ought to have been in the original Act under which they were appointed, The compound householder ought to be got rid of, and then everyone would know what he was paying in rates. This it is impossible to know when the rates are included in the rent. You want an audit of the accounts of these corporations, ' and there ought to have been in the original Act a limit to their rating power. Instead of having their hands in everybody's pockets they ought to have been limited as to the rate they should be entitled to raise. If that had been done, instead of the rivalry which now exists as to which of them should have the biggest concerns, the rivalry would be as to which could do the most with the money at their disposal. There is another suggestion I have to make. It is that when a man has been elected to the London County Council he should have to pass an examination before a Government official in all the matters with which he professes to deal, and that there should be a special examination in shipbuilding and navigation. That strikes me as a very practical suggestion, and I throw it out for the consideration of the Government. These clauses were rejected in 1902 by a Committee of the House of Commons. In 1903 this trading power was again re-
1262
jected, and, lastly, in 1905 it was rejected by a Committe of the House of Lords. I therefore venture to move the Amendment standing in my name.
Amendment moved.
" In Part V (Supply of Electric Fittings by Metropolitan Borough Councils), to leave out Clauses 27, 28, and 29."— (The, Earl of Wemyss.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I regret very much that after having been attacked just now from the left wing we are now attacked from the right. I can assure my noble friend that no one is more opposed to municipal trading as such than I am; but, with reference to this question of electrical fittings, it appears to me that it is to be looked at from quite a different point of view. The proposal in the Bill is that distributors of power and light should be allowed to supply the fittings by means of which that power and light are given. The power which we propose is not in any way a power of monopoly as against private traders. When either a private company or a public body distribute electricity, there are certain prima facie reasons why it is more convenient from the point of view of the consumer that they should also have the power of supplying fittings. If these clauses remain in the Bill it will be equally in the power of any consumer, just as at present, to employ a private trader and to have the fittings put in by him. Moreover, in the case of the supplying company or the supplying borough authority trading unfairly, there is an appeal to the Board of Trade, and, as was pointed out to us on the Committee, this has boon found perfectly effectual. With regard to what the noble Earl said in defence of the ratepayers, these clauses were specially drawn by a Committee in a previous session of Parliament to meet objections which had been raised and to prevent the Council in any way putting down the expenditure incurred by them in supplying fittings under such headings as to charge it to their general undertaking. In the first place, there is the security that no council of any Metropolitan borough is to manufacture.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Wait a year or two.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: But this does not apply to these boroughs only. The noble Earl must not suppose for a moment that these powers are being given to Metropolitan boroughs alone. They have been given to a great many boroughs and also to gas companies and other companies of the kind whose supply is to a very large extent connected with the fittings and apparatus by means of which the supply is given. You have to judge a matter of this sort very much on the merits of the particular case, and, with regard to these Metropolitan boroughs, many of the houses are very small—£20, £25, and £30—and there are a great many persons who take a supply of electric power who prefer to hire rather than to purchase. All the evidence before us went to show that the private companies, and even persons who supplied motors, were rather in favour of the purchase system, and were inclined, as far as they could, to encourage that system rather than the system of hire. It was pointed out to us that a great many small manufacturers using electrical energy wished to hire rather than to purchase. It is perfectly true that a Committee of your Lordships' House did reject this proposal, or one almost identical with it, in the last session of Parliament, but I believe I am speaking for the majority of the members of the Committee when I say that, considering all the circumstances of the case, we thought it expedient to allow these clauses to remain in the Bill.
LORD CLINTON: My Lords, the evidence which was brought before us this year was almost exactly similar to that which came before your Lordships' Committee in the year 1905. The witnesses were almost identical, and having served on the previous Committee as well as on this one, I could not detect much difference in the arguments. Yet the Committee of 1905 unanimously rejected the clauses, and the Committee this year, by a majority of four to one, allowed them to proceed. This, no doubt, is but a minor instance of municipal trading, but still the principle remains the same. It is the principle which has been very strongly objected to, not only by Members of your Lordships' House, but by a very large number of people outside, on the ground, chiefly,
1264
that the gradual absorption of private-trading into the hands of municipalities is likely to produce a very serious evil, and if it becomes more general may lead to the great discouragement of almost all forms of individual effort.
I do not profess to be such a strong opponent of municipal trading as the noble-Earl who has moved this Amendment. I can understand that in certain circumstances municipal trading is both justifiable and advantageous, but I think before the power is given it should be shown that the municipality wishes to embark on trading for the purpose of accomplishing some great public enterprise, and they should also, I think, be able to show that they can do it better than private individuals or public companies But in the case which is now before us there was no evidence of the kind, and my whole point is that these great powers should only be granted by Parliament as an exceptional matter of very great importance. The evidence before us did not show that there was any necessity at all, in my opinion, for these borough councils entering into this form of trading.
The noble Earl who presided over the Committee this year, the Earl of Camper-down, has told us that it would be a great convenience for the public to be able to have their fittings supplied by the same people who supplied the power. I can quite believe that there is a convenience in that, but I do say that the convenience, such as it is, is not sufficient to outweigh the primary objections to the principle of this municipal trading. The London County Council showed in evidence that in certain cases the firms at present engaged in supplying electrical fittings were unwilling or unable to supply them to the smaller class of houses where only some ten or twenty lights were required, and, in particular, that they were unwilling to adopt what is known as the hire-purchase system. I believe that system is a great convenience and is very much desired by a large number of small users of electrical power, but I hold that the firms have a complete answer.
The firms stated that this system had been tried, and they found that it could not, in these particular cases, be carried out at a profit. They found that the attendant risks were too great. There

1265
was the risk of unpunctuality in payment, and the risk of the purchaser leaving his house and going to another locality before his payments were completed. If private firms have found it impossible to carry on this system at a profit, is it likely that a municipal authority will be able to do so? I do not think our past experience of municipal trading would justify us in coming to such a conclusion, and if the municipal authority cannot carry it on at a profit, ought they to be allowed to risk the ratepayers' money in attempting to do so? I hold that the passing of this Bill, while it would be a danger, would also be a very serious hardship to the large number of respectable firms at present engaged in supplying these fittings; that it would bring them face to face with the serious competition of a municipality which possibly, by the aid of the rates, would succeed in forcing them out of their district with the loss of their capital and without any compensating advantage whatever to the general public.
LORD LEITH OF FYVIE: My Lords, having been a member of this Committee, I would like to explain what influenced me in voting in the way I did. Personally, in a business sense I am opposed to municipal trading. But I think it is a misnomer to say that these clauses come within that category, because they simply continue the process of supplying the consumer and enabling that supply to reach the consumer. In two instances the manufacturers who came before us were quite willing to let the wiring go. They said there was no profit in it. We thought it would be to the benefit of the consumer, both from the point of view of convenience and expense, that this power should be given. I understand that there are several boroughs which have been given the power, and it has been found to work in a satisfactory way. On the other hand, I admit that Glasgow was given the power and has withdrawn it at the urgent request of contractors; but the principle remains the same, that the development of the supply largely depends on the facility with which fittings and wiring are carried out. Therefore we thought it right that the power should be given.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: My Lords, I may perhaps be allowed to
1266
say a few words on this point, as I was Chairman of the Committee which rejected these clauses last year. I do not know that I should have troubled your Lordships if it had not been for the speech of the noble Lord who has just sat down, which I confess seemed to me to be one of a very alarming character. It appears that the decision which the Committee has come to in this instance is based on the contention that the right of ' supplying the power should always be; accompanied by the right of supplying the fittings.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: It is a concurrent power, not a monopoly.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: Is that the accepted rule, the understood principle, upon which Committees have gone in the past? Is not that an entirely new principle altogether? No doubt in certain instances powers have been given to corporations, but they do compete seriously with the retail dealer. One curious recommendation by which the noble Lord supported these proceedings was that the operations could be carried out much more cheaply for the consumer by the local authorty. What does that mean? It means that the retail dealer is to be unfairly competed with by the local authority, which has means of supplying articles at a lower price than the retail dealer.
LORD LEITH OF FYVIE: I was only referring to the wiring. The contractors themselves acknowledge that there is no money in it, and they do not care about the wiring.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: I understand that the power you will give in these clauses goes as far as the supply of motors also, and I must say I think this is rather an instance of very great abuse in the matter of our Private Bill Legislation. Promoters bring Bills forward year after year. Sometimes the whole Bill, and sometimes clauses of the Bill, meet with rejection at the hands of one or other House of Parliament. The promoters bring the Bills up again and again until at last they manage to do one of two things—either to drain the pockets of the opponents to such an extent that it is no longer worth their while to oppose the proposal, or else by

1267
some means to induce the Committee to pass and adopt it. There does not seem to be that continuity of policy in our Private Bill Legislation which there ought to be. I do not think it should be in the power of a body like the London County Council to bring forward year after year proposals of this kind, which year after year are rejected. No noble Lord has had more experience as Chairman of your Lordships' Committees than my noble friend Lord Camperdown, whose opinion is, of course, entitled to every respect; but it does seem to me that, perhaps through the case not being fully put before thorn, he and his colleagues have come to a conclusion absolutely opposed to that of four or five other Committees who have sat on this question. I do not think this should be possible, and for that reason, if for no other, it would be advisable for your Lordships to agree to the Amendment to strike out these clauses. I am a little alarmed at the arguments of my noble friend Lord Camperdown, and all the more alarmed because of his tried judgment and great experience in these matters. The noble Earl began by telling us that he was opposed to municipal trading, but that there were exceptional circumstances which now and then must be taken into consideration.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I said in this case.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: One of those circumstances was that the power was not to be a monopoly. But is that the whole objection to municipal trading? Is there no objection to municipal trading unless that trading is a monopoly? The objection to municipal trading is that it competes with fair commercial undertakings. I venture to think that anything approaching retail dealing should only be entrusted to local authorities in the most exceptional circumstances. The noble Earl said that one of the main reasons why these powers should be given to the London County Council was that they supply a large number of very small houses. That is a very wide-reaching reason. It is an argument which may be applied to every city and borough in England, and I do protest most strongly against doctrines,
1268
even proceeding from the noble Earl, so utterly subversive of what I believe has hitherto been the policy of Parliament.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, the Board of Trade see no reason why electrical fittings should not be sold by municipal bodies. They see no reason why bodies which are authorised to manufacture and sell electricity should not also have the advantage of being able to sell the fittings. In no case will they manufacture them, and, therefore, they will not be competing with private enterprise. My noble friend Lord Wemyss said he was afraid they would next year bring in a Bill for power to manufacture fittings, but I do not think there is any reason to fear that. Nearly every gas company has power to sell fittings, and a great many of the electrical lighting companies in the provinces also have that power. I therefore hope that in these circum stances the noble Lord will not press his Amendment.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I do not think your Lordships need be afraid that in the Chairman of the Committee which considered this Bill you have any dangerous socialist anxious to advocate collective rather than individual doctrines. The noble Earl, with the consent of the majority of his Committee, decided in favour of allowing these clauses, and I gather from the remarks he made that that action was taken on the ground that it would benefit the poorer classes. I have no doubt there is a great deal of difficulty in getting them to adopt any new system unless it is made extremely simple, and if they have to go to two authorities, one to light and one to wire, there is a difficulty in getting them to adopt what undoubtedly they would wish to have. I remember an American friend of mine, commenting on the position of the legal profession in this country, saying that in America they did not have the two classes, barristers and solicitors, because they could not afford there to be lathered in one shop and to be shaved in another. I think that is very much the case here: that these persons prefer to buy their electricity and their fittings from the same body.

1269
The noble Duke who was Chairman of the Committee last year made some complaint against the course of Private Bill Business in your Lordships' House, and he pointed out that it was the practice to bring in proposals again and again until they were accepted by the House. I hardly think that in this case, at any rate, the argument of the noble Duke has much force, because there are already two metropolitan boroughs supplying fittings, and there are no fewer than forty-two provincial authorities who have clauses which enable them to supply fittings as well as electricity. I venture to think, if we are to refer to precedents, that they are rather on the side of the promoters of this Bill. As I said on the last Amendment proposed to this Bill, I am not one of those who always support a negative answer to the question," Should London wait?" and I do not see why on all . occasions London should come in last in the race. In this particular case I do not think the principle which the House has agreed to in connection with two metropolitan and forty-two provincial authorities is so dangerous that your Lordships may not safely extend it to the other boroughs within the area of the London County Council.
On question, Amendment negatived.
On question, Bill passed and returned to the Commons.

CORPORATION OF LONDON (BLACKFRIARS AND OTHER BRIDGES)BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
On Question, Bill read 3a.
LORD WELBY: My Lords, as I am the only member of the Metropolitan Water Board who has a seat in your Lordships' House I have been asked to move the Amendment standing in my name. The object of the clause is the further protection of the Metropolitan Water Board and the gas companies, providing that in the event of damage to certain pipes from electric currents generated and used by the Corporation nothing in the Bill shall relieve the Corporation from the liability to make compensation. This clause was passed in Committee of the other House, and afterwards came up to
1270
your Lordships and was considered and passed by a Committee presided over by Lord Camperdown. I am under the impression that the clause was passed in your Lordships' Committee as an agreed clause, and I am not aware that any evidence was taken on the point. But after it had been adopted by Lord Camperdown's Committee the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees struck it out.
I know it is a very serious matter for a humble Member of your Lordships' House to ask you to reconsider any point of this kind which has been decided by so high an authority as the Chairman of Committees, but I understand that his decision was taken upon the ground that the clause was contrary to the spirit and intention of the Report of the Joint Committee over which Lord Cross presided some years ago. I am the last person to question the interpretation which Lord Onslow has put upon the practice of your Lordships' House, or to ask you to reverse that which on consideration he has thought proper to recommend; but I would point out how very desirable it is that promoters and those interested in the passing of Bills should know where they are. I should feel that I had no ground whatever for asking that this clause should be inserted were it not that there are so many precedents upon my side.
I believe I am right in saying that since the Report of Lord Cross's Committee no fewer than fifteen different bodies have obtained powers similar to those contained in the clause which the Chairman of Committees struck out of this Bill. It does appear to me that in such a case it is extremely difficult to justify the action of Parliament. The present state of affairs constitutes a hardship on promoters. If the recommendation of Lord Cross's Committee is the right one, and if the regulations made by the Board of Trade are sufficient to meet the case, they should be of universal application. There is no justification for granting one borough this protection and refusing it to another. It is upon that ground that I ask the House to take the question again into consideration, and I hope the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees will reconsider the decision he has come to in this case.
Moved, " After Clause 14, to insert as a new clause: For the further protection of

1271
the Gas Light and Coke Company, the South Metropolitan Gas Company, and the Metropolitan Water Board, the following provisions shall have effect: If it be proved that an injury or damage to any gas or water pipes or other metallic pipes, structures, or substances of either of the said companies or of the said board elsewhere than on Blackfriars Bridge between the northern and southern abutments thereof shall have resulted from fusion or electrolytic action caused by any currents generated and used by the Corporation for the purpose of electric energy under this Act, nothing in this Act shall relieve the Corporation from any liability to make compensation for any such injury or damage which would have existed but for the passing of this Act."—(Lord Welby.)
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I am sorry that I cannot ask your Lordships to comply with the request of my noble friend. This matter has been under very careful consideration, and -was brought before your Lordships' House as recently as 1903. The Committee over which my noble friend Lord Cross presided in 1893 was a Joint Committee of both Houses, and had upon it Lord Rosse, Lord Russell, Sir John Brunner and others well versed in scientific matters. It came to the conclusion that this was a question which could safely be left to the Board of Trade, and it recommended a series of clauses to be inserted in every Bill providing that the Board of Trade should make certain regulations which would, in their belief, prevent any damage to the pipes of water or gas companies.
It is quite true that since 1893 a clause similar to that proposed by my noble friend on this occasion has been inserted in some Bills, but not, I believe, since 1903. In that year the Beckenham Urban District Council Bill came up to your Lordships' House with a clause similar to this in it, and a Motion was made that the clause, although it had been considered by a Committee of which the Duke of Bedford was Chairman, should be rejected; and your Lordships, contrary to your usual practice but with the sanction of the then Chairman of Committee, decided that the clause should not be allowed. This has been the practice
1272
from that time until now, and unless some scientific member of your Lordships' House is prepared to get up and say that the inventions and knowledge of electricity have so altered since 1893 that there is good reason for reconsidering the question, I think your Lordships would do well to adhere to the decision you arrived at in 1903, that in matters of this kind it is safe to rely upon the sufficiency of the regulations of the Board of Trade. So far as I know, the Board of Trade consider that they are quite able to discharge the duties that are to be put upon them, and I ask your Lordships to leave the matter in the hands of the Government Department.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I think this short discussion illustrates, as the noble Duke observed just now, one of the numerous difficulties attending Private Bill legislation. This particular question of electrolysis is one which is perpetually occurring. Only last session the same point was raised in connection with a Torquay Bill, and the proposal was rejected by the House. It is perfectly plain that if the Amendment which the noble Lord has now moved is accepted it will cause additional complications in decisions of this character, and Chairmen of Private Bill Committees have quite enough difficulties to contend with already. If this Amendment is accepted it will create a fresh precedent whenever a Bill is promoted in which the interests of a gas company are affected in any way. In such a case opponents will plead for the recognition of this particular principle. But what I really rose to suggest was that it does seem to mo most desirable that we should, if possible, arrive at what I may term uniformity of decision in such matters. This difficulty with regard to electrolysis will obviously continue to recur, and therefore I suggest that the Board of Trade should appoint a Departmental Committee, or that some similar steps should be taken in order to ascertain the real rights of the question and arrive at a satisfactory decision which shall be a guide to Committees in the future.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, if the Board of Trade adopt the suggestion which has just been thrown out by my noble friend Lord Newton, perhaps they will also inquire into an action of their own

1273
in 1904, when they granted a Provisional Order containing the very clause which the noble Lord opposite now wishes to insert in this Bill. Although the Board of Trade are put forward as the proper authority to look after this matter they themselves, as recently as 1904, inserted in a Provisional Order for which they were responsible a clause similar to the one which is now thought unnecessary.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE): My: Lords, there are two entirely separate; questions before the House at this moment, one dealing with the merits of this particular case, and the other raised by my noble friend, Lord Newton, as to the practice of Private Bill Committees. As regards the practice of Private Bill Committees, I confess I have always felt that there is a certain danger arising out of agreed clauses. It sometimes happens that towards the end of a rather long and wearisome Committee the parties come together and bring up, in an agreeable and smiling manner, a number of agreed clauses which the Chairman of the Committee is very much tempted to adopt, and I think it occasionally has happened ' that somewhat unfortunate precedents have been created by that means. Of course, we look to the Lord-Chairman in such cases to keep a careful watch upon any departure from established precedent, and to deal with it in a manner which he, as an autocrat in those matters, is able to do by striking out anything which he considers objectionable in I itself or creating an undesirable precedent. As regards this particular matter, I think my noble friend behind me was quite justified in bringing it before the House, but, in view of the opinion expressed by the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees, to whom one is always accustomed to look on these occasions, I hope my noble friend will not persist in his desire to reinsert the clause, and that he will agree to accept what I imagine would be the decision of your Lordships' House in supporting the Lord-Co airman in this matter.
LORD WELBY: After what my noble friend has just said I shall not put the House to the trouble of dividing on the the Amendment. I would only remind the noble Earl the Chairman of Com
1274
mittees that there were fifteen Bills in which this clause was insortod—two in 1900, three in 1901, six in 1903, two in 1904, and two in 1905. I venture to think that that point deserves the attention of my noble friend, as it gives the idea that there is not equal treatment between all parties. I think the suggestion made by Lord Newton is one which is deserving of the attention of His Majesty's Government.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I will look into the precedents since 1903. What I said was that I was not aware that then was any precedent for the insertion of this clause since your Lordships' decision in the full House in 1903. I shall probably find that the cases to which the noble Lord has referred were Provisional Orders, for which my Department is not responsible.
On Question, Amendment regatived.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

RUSSIA AND THE FLEET.
LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, seeing my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his place, I beg to ask whether he is able to give the House any information with regard to the abandonment by the Fleet of the proposed visit to Russian ports.
THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD FITZMAURICE): My Lords, it having been intimated to us by the Russian Government that, in view of the political situation in Russia, the presence of foreign ships in their ports might give rise to agitations and incidents connected with internal affairs, it has therefore been decided not to proceed with the cruise as had been intended His Majesty's Government much regret that this visit of the Fleet has to be postponed, the more so as there would be difficulties in rearranging the remaining part of the programme; and it has therefore been decided to give up the intended cruise to the Baltic altogether, including visits to other ports.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION.
  Petition in favour of denominational religious teaching in schools, of inhabitants of Firle signing; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3667. China (Hangchow).
  No. 3668. Japan (Shimonoseki).
  No. 3669. Brazil (Pernambuco).
  No. 3670. Netherlands (Surinam).

  INEBRIATES ACTS, 1879 to 1900 (SCOTLAND).
  Report of the Inspector for Scotland under the Inebriates Acts, for the year 1905.

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Statement showing syllabuses of religious instruction issued by diocesan and other associations for the use of Church of England schools.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Report of the Board of Education for the year 1904–5, on the administration of schools under the Welsh Intermediate Act, 1889.
  SEA FISHERIES REGULATION ACT, 1888.
  Order made by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under the provisions of the above Act, for the variation of an -order for creating the Northumberland Ses Fisheries District.
  Twenty-third General Annual Report "by the Board of Trade, under Section 131 of the Bankruptcy Act, 1883.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated July 11th, 1906, declaring that Hugo Marinitch, C.M.G., Dragoman, His Majesty's Embassy, Constantinople, was appointed
  1276
  without a civil service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his department.

  POLLING DISTRICTS.
  Order made by—
  The council of the West Riding of Yorkshire constituting polling districts in the Elland and Doncaster Parliamentary divisions of the county.
  The council of the borough of Stockton-on-Tees altering certain polling districts in the borough.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

CONVEYANCING BILL [H.L.]
  SETTLED LAND BILL [H.L.]
    MARRIED WOMEN'S PROPERTY BILL [H.L.]
    Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

    HORSE-BREEDING.
    THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORErose to move to resolve, " That in view of the importance of the horse-breeding industry to the community in general, and of the necessity for an adequate and efficient supply of horses for military and other purposes, it is, in the opinion of the House, desirable that steps should be taken to improve the breeding of horses by giving effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on horse-breeding in their Tenth Report, especially to those having reference to the improvement of the quality of brood mares. "
    The noble Earl said: My Lords, I confidently appeal to your Lordships to allow me to trespass upon your patience this evening in regard to a subject of very great importance, and a subject in which I know many of your Lordships take very great interest. The horse-breeding industry is one in connection with which there are many peculiar circumstances, which I think admit of the Government taking special steps to deal with it—steps that they are able to take without any interference with certain economic theories which I know are hold very strongly on the other side of the House and which

    1277
    are acted up to perhaps not quite so strongly. I take it that it will be granted on all sides that Government horse-breeding establishments such as are known on the Continent of Europe are in this country impracticable, and that it is infinitely more satisfactory, from every point of view, that the horse-breeding industry should be left in the hands of private individuals. But, in spite of that, there are many ways in which the Government can interest themselves in, and so indirectly benefit, the industry, and it is to some of those ways that I would ask to be allowed to direct your Lordships' attention.
    We are fortunate in the fact that we have before us a great deal of information upon the subject. We have, first of all, the ten Reports of the Royal Commission on Horse-breeding—most valuable Reports—and I have also in my hand a document of very great interest, which I dare say has fallen under the notice of many of your Lordships, though it is not an official publication. It is a report of a special committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society which sat in the year 1904 and made some most interesting inquiries upon many branches of the subject. The members of the committee were all men well known as being thoroughly " up " in the subject. They made their inquiries by letter, and the evidence they collected went to show that whereas the breeding of thoroughbred horses, sires, and polo ponies is well looked after, that of hunters and the stamp of horse which is, after all, the Army stamp, shows an entire want of system and scientific treatment the actual words of their Report are—
    " With certain marked exceptions the industry is now being pursued in a haphazard manner, without skill or organisation, and, generally speaking, with but moderate success."
    I believe there are in existence Government Returns which show that the number of horses in this country has increased, but the evidence that was submitted to this Committee proves that whereas the total number of horses has increased the number of useless mal formed, unhealthy horses has increased disproportionately to the increase in the total number of horses.
    1278
    Three things would appear to be necessary to deal with the evils which we know to exist. The first is the provision of better sires. I know that something is already done in this direction. The State spends, I think, £8,500 a year—£5,000 in England through the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, and £3,500 in Ireland through the Department of Agriculture. The £3,500 a year which is spent in Ireland used, I believe, to be spent under the direction of the Royal Dublin Society, but it has been recently transferred. This branch of the subject is a most difficult one to deal with, but I am happy in the knowledge that several members of your Lordships' House who are well skilled in its intricacies intend addressing your Lordships upon it after I have sat down, and therefore I am not going into the question in detail. But perhaps I may say, in passing, that the evidence of the Committee to which I have referred shows that the system under which the State at present spends this money annually in improving sires by the offering of King's praemia is popular with the farmers, that in their opinion the work is most satisfactorily done by the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, and that on the whole the present accepted typo of sire is approved of, though on this point opinions are not absolutely unanimous. I may perhaps mention, as a small proof of the fact that it is worth while giving attention to this subject, that Government Returns show that of 2,460 sires in Ireland alone only 662 are thoroughbred. 633 of the remainder are carthorse sires, and what this large number of carthorse sires are being used for in Ireland, I find it difficult to understand, unless they are contaminating the hunter blood.
    The second thing which seems to be necessary is the provision of good mares. The Tenth Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, issued a year ago, stated—
    " We believe the time has come when something more should be done to improve the quality of mares. There is no doubt that much good could be done in this by your Commissioners, but with the small sum available for our use we find ourselves unable to deal further with this matter."
    The Committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society, already referred to,

    1279
    draws special attention to the fact that good mares are being withdrawn from this country at an alarming rate, and that this country which breeds them gets no further use of them for breeding purposes. I do not, of course, suggest that we should go to the length adopted by some other countries, from which it is absolutely forbidden to export mares, but I think steps should be taken on a large scale to deal with this important part of the subject—a part which has hitherto been, until, at any rate, two years ago, neglected on all sides.
    Two years ago a society was organised in this country—the Brood Mare Society— which has now issued its second Report, and I wish particularly to draw your Lordships' attention to the methods which that Committee has pursued, and pursued, as I hope I shall be able to show your Lordships, with success. The Committee commenced, of course, in a small way, but it has provided an organisation aimed at placing within the reach of the horse-breeding community mares of good stamp and quality at moderate cost, and the organisation has worked smoothly from the first. Its procedure is as follows. It obtains mares either by purchase or by gift, and I acknowledge gratefully that private owners have been most generous on the latter head. There are now fifty mares in this country in conditions which I will now describe to your Lordships under the æigis of the society, and twenty-nine of these have been presented to the society. These mares are given to farmers for breeding purposes under certain conditions, and local committees are organised to watch the intimate working of the system almost from day to day.
    The rules of the society provide that the mare remains the property of the society, and has to be given up on demand. I need not explain the reason for that; it is pretty obvious. But the farmer may use the mare while in his possession for such work as she is capable of performing, having clue regard to the foal and the period of foaling. She must be at all times properly cared for, and the local committee is responsible for seeing that this condition is fulfilled. The stallion employed must be selected or approved by the local committee, and all expenses are borne by the custodian—the farmer. All foals belong to the custodian if they
    1280
    are colts, but the first two fillies must be sold to the society, if the society requires-them, for £35 at a certain age—I think it is three-and-a-half years—and the custodian is made to join the society and gets all these benefits for £2 a year.
    Briefly the position is this. The farmer gets the mare for nothing, he feeds her, he breeds from her; the colts are absolutely his own, but the society has the option of purchasing the first two fillies at £35; subsequently all fillies are his own. we have now about fifty of these-mares distributed in Leicestershire, Dorsetshire, Herefordshire, and Cornwall. Farmers eagerly accept the mares of the society. We have found that on a small scale suitable mares can be obtained, and; that local gentlemen of knowledge and position are ready to help us on our local committees. We claim that the custodian of the mare gets good value for his money, and your Lordships will see-that the power we have of purchasing the first two fillies at £35 a-piece gives-us an opportunity of ensuring that these fillies shall be used in future for improving the general stock. We believe that the breeder appreciates this position just as much as the central committee of the-society. This society has fifty mares under their system as the result of two years work, and think it is highly creditable to them that they have not got one halfpenny of debt.
    The Report of the Committee of the Hunters Improvement Society to which I have already referred shows that there was undoubtedly need for the formation of the society. One of the questions asked was whether occupiers, of land would be likely to assist in the movement by which suitable brood mares should be provided by a central society under certain conditions for breeding purposes. The answers received were— favourable, 222; unfavourable, 126; doubtful, 118. I am glad to say that of the 118 who were doubtful, 100 were doubtful only because it was thought that there were practical difficulties. This committee sat in 1904, and the experience of the last two years has proved that these practical difficulties can be overcome. The next question asked was—
    " Do you consider that there is a sufficient number of brood mares in your district suitable.

    1281
    to breed light horses, and, if so, what is the approximate number? "
    There were only seventy-five replies, out of a total of very nearly 500, which showed satisfaction with the present 'condition of things. I will only quote three or four at random. Here is a reply from Kent—
    " Plenty of brood mares, but no good for breeding.''
    From county Down—
    "A great number of brood mares, but, as a rule, they are animals rejected at sale. Everything that will pass the veterinary inspector is sold."
    From County Wexford—
    "Farmers buy any mare, and chance the getting of a foal."
    From Pembrokeshire—
    " No attention is paid to the mares. Farmers breed from any mares they happen to have."
    From Yorkshire—
    " All good mares are bought by dealers every year, and, as a rule, sold to the foreigner.
    These are typical answers. I cannot refrain from alluding to the last quotation from the evidence, which also comes from Yorkshire—
    " During the bad time twenty years ago, fanners parted with their old breeds that had been in Yorkshire for years and took to hackneys. They have now discovered their mistake."
    I venture to say that any man who has had anything to do with hackneys deserves to be flayed alive.
    I say quite openly and candidly to the noble Earl opposite that we want help from the Government. We claim to have it known that, beginning in a small way, we have provided an organisation which is workable and popular, and we think we are justified now in coming to the Government and asking them to help us to a certain extent. Our subscriptions up to the present time have amounted to £250, and the work we have accomplished has been done without incurring a halfpenny of debt. We are a cheap organisation, and claim that we are worthy of consideration and help from His Majesty's Government. We could be helped in many ways. We could be helped by an annual grant. It might be convenient, perhaps, that that grant should be given to the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding for mares, and they
    1282
    might employ our society as their agents. I throw that out as one way in which some assistance could be given.
    But there is another way in which the Government could help us. Could they not persuade the War Office to lot us have mares at ten or eleven years of age for breeding purposes, if not for nothing, at a small cost? As I have said, the committee of the Hunters' Improvement Society have ascertained that throe-fourths of the animals purchased by the Government are scarcely ever permitted to return and reproduce their species. That is supported by my own experience at the War Office, when certain facts in connection with this matter came under my notice. I know it is the fashion for the War Office to keep horses and mares as long as a spark of work remains in them. That may be the cheaper policy at the moment, but I think it is on the whole a bad investment. The Government would do much better if they gave some serious attention to this matter and helped our society in the direction I have indicated. I would suggest also that they might take our three and a half year old mares at approximately the price we pay for them from the farmer, on the understanding that afterwards they give them back to us for the purpose of reproducing their species under our auspices.
    I do not ask for a large grant. I know that the noble Earl opposite is a most liberal man, and those who were present in your Lordships' House a week ago know that he has large ideas as to what constitutes a small sum. I do not want the small sum which the noble Earl is content to see spent annually by the London County Council on steamboats, but I think he might help us, as I am sure he will if he can see his way to do so, in the direction I have indicated. A little would go a long way and would have an appreciable effect in the direction of retaining good strains of blood in this country.
    Moved to resolve, "That, in view o the importance of the horse-breeding f industry to the community in general, and of the necessity for an adequate and efficient supply of horses for military and other purposes, it is, in the opinion of the House, desirable that steps should be taken to improve the breeding of horses

    1283
    by giving effect to the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding in their Tenth Report, especially to those having reference to the improvement of the quality of good mares."— (The Earl of Donoughmore.)
    THE DUKE OF PORTLAND: My Lords, as one who has for many years, in fact, ever since its inauguration, had the honour of serving on the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding I have much pleasure in supporting the Motion which has been moved by Lord Donoughmore and in doing so I would like to say a few words in general on the subject to which he has alluded. I have felt for some time that the horse-breeding industry is in a most precarious position, notwithstanding that Government statistics show an increase in the number of horses bred in this country.
    My reason for saying this is that I consider the advent of the motor car—a most useful and convenient mode of transit for those who can afford to own a motor car—cannot but have, sooner or later, a weakening influence on the horse-breeding industry in general. I doubt not that before very long several of the functions which horses at present perform in the streets of our largo towns and also in our country districts will be carried out by means of petrol or some other chemical compound. Holding this opinion I think it is the duty of every one interested in the subject—the Government included-—to do what they can to foster the industry, not only for the sake of the farmer and the horse-breeder, but also for national purposes. More especially is this the case when we take into consideration the fact that in all probability before very long the streets of London and other large towns will be filled with motor omnibuses, thereby decreasing the supply of that kind of horse which I am credibly told was one of the most useful animals during the late war in South Africa.
    I cannot help thinking, my Lords, that one way of encouraging horse-breeding would be, as mentioned in the last Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, for the Government to buy their young stock at three years old instead of at four years old as, I believe, is now the general practice. The difficulty and
    1284
    expense to farmers to keep their young, horses until they have turned four years old before selling them I believe to be very great. It is well known, too, that the expense of keeping a young horse during the winter between three and four years old is much greater than in the-previous years of that young horse's life. The farmer in many instances, or, perhaps, I may say in most instances, cannot afford this, as the price he generally receives for his young horses rising five years old is one which does not usually pay him a due return for all the trouble and expense involved. After three years the young horse becomes troublesome and it is necessary to break him, which nowadays the farmer or the farmer's son is very often quite unable to do, and therefore it is necessary to relegate the young horse to the local horse-breaker.
    In the old days when the agricultural industry was in a prosperous condition the farmer could very often afford to hunt and was frequently—in fact, more often than not—a really good horseman; but bad times have changed all this, and now, comparatively speaking, few farmers can afford the expense of keeping a horse to follow the hounds. I imagine that if the Government could be induced to buy their young horses for remounts and for other purposes at three years old instead of at four years old, and have those young horses taken in hand and carefully and systematically trained, not only would they thereby confer a great benefit on the fanner and the horse brooder in general, but I think we should hear fewer complaints of the decade n co of the horse-breeding industry, hurried, as I fear it will be, to its end by the coming of the motor-car. My idea is that the Government should pay about the same price for an animal rising four years old, or what is known as three off, as they do now for one rising five. It might, in the first instance, cost a little more money, but the great advantage that would accrue would be that the Government would, obtain an unbroken animal which could be trained according to scientific principles and the requirements of the present day, instead of a half broken brute which most probably had acquired every possible kind of bad habit—habits most difficult and probably impossible to cure, and which sometimes render that animal totally useless for every practical purpose.

    1285
    With regard to the work of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding I think, considering the very small sum of money which has been at its disposal, it has done as much as it could to provide sound thoroughbred horses. It may interest your Lordships to know that the number of champion prizes, challenge cups, gold and silver medals, and other prizes won by the stock of the King's premium stallions at the chief agricultural and other shows in the country during the last eight years is no less than 3,131, or an average of about 391 prizes a year. Speaking of the horses I think, too, that the quality generally has much improved; and at the annual shows of the Royal Commission the number of unsound horses is certainly decreasing in a most remarkable way. I find that at the first show, held at Nottingham in February, 1888, sixty-four horses were submitted for examination and no less than thirty-four were rejected as unsound. In the next year, 1889, when the Royal Commission held its show at Islington, fifty-one were submitted for examination and seventeen failed to pass; whilst at the show in 1905—the last show which I personally attended—only three horses were rejected by the veterinary surgeons out of fifty-six examined; and from the classes confined to England only one horse out of seventy-five was rejected from the horses shown in those classes.
    I am happy to think, my Lords, that many private individuals are doing and have done their best to keep good sound thoroughbred stallions for their tenants and for farmers, but undoubtedly the great difficulty is, as my noble friend Lord Donoughmore has said, the lack of brood mares. I have often, both in public and privately, urged farmers to keep half-bred males and also to breed from nothing but good sound serviceable animals. Nowadays, however, there is naturally a great temptation to sell good mares to pay the expense of a farm, and I regret to say that a deaf ear has generally been turned to my well-meant but seldom-listened-to advice. I still believe that in the long run it would pay farmers much better to keep their good mares and breed from them themselves than to yield to momentary
    1286
    temptation and take the first tempting offer which is made to them.
    With regard to the Brood Mare Society, of which Lord Donoughmore, I believe, is president, I should like to say that I consider it has in view most praiseworthy objects, which should certainly be most generously supported. Personally I thoroughly approve of its objects and of its means of procedure, for it is carrying out a plan which some time ago I tried to inaugurate on my own property in the-Midland counties. I trust I may not be thought desirous of self-advertisement or of calling attention to my own personal affairs—for such, I can assure your Lordships, is very far from my object—when I say that a few years ago, finding that, practically speaking, there were no serviceable brood mares for the production of half-bred horses on my estate, I had the greatest pleasure in purchasing in Ireland thirty-six brood mares to distribute to my tenants, with the idea of having a permanent stock of half-bred horses in the district where I live. I regret to say, however, that in most instances the colts and fillies—and I especially regret the loss of the fillies—have been sold, and those animals have been lost to that part of the country which I wished and intended to benefit.
    But, my Lords, it is never too late to mend, and I am still trying to persuade my friends to keep the mares they breed, and I trust they will listen to my advice, especially as some of the produce of the mares I distributed have been prize-winners on several occasions. I trust this will induce their owners to keep them and to breed from them with the view of possible future gain. I am glad to note that the Brood Mare Society has by its rules safeguarded itself against the error into which. I fell. The rule is that those who have mares given out by the society should keep the fillies they breed until three years old, and then return them to the society if the society so desires. I did not make a rule to that effect, and I am extremely sorry for it. I trust that the fillies bred from the mares which the Brood Mare Society have distributed may be kept by those who are lucky enough to possess them.
    In conclusion, my Lords, without in any way pledging the Royal Commission

    1287
    on Horse Breeding, of which I am only a humble member, to adopt the methods of the Brood Mare Society, I must express the sincere hope that the Government will see their way to grant a further sum of money towards the encouragement— nay, towards the very existence—of the half-bred horse-breeding industry of this country, which I regret to think is now so grievously threatened, and which I think is likely to be practically extinguished if some further steps are not taken to give it new and increased life and vigour.
    LORD RIBBLESDALE: My Lords, I welcome this opportunity of saying a few words in support of the Resolution which has been so ably moved by Lord Donoughmore, and, as a member of the Royal Commission since its appointment, I wish to associate myself with every word which I has fallen from the noble Duke who acted for a great many years as the Chairman of that body and to whom the whole horse-breeding industry in this country is indebted for a great deal of zeal and unremitting devotion. As Lord Donoughmore has told us, and as his Resolution makes abundantly clear, more money for I brood mares is the essence of this subject, and belonging as I do to the straightest sect of free traders, I can quite understand that noble Lords who sit on the Front Bench below me may ask, "How is it that you are able to reconcile your settled convictions with what is undoubtedly a bounty system and a request for an extension of the bounty system? " I quite admit that dilemma, and de minimis non curat lex is not an answer which I am prepared to give.
    I should like, in this connection, to go back for a moment to the inception of the Royal Commission, and I think I may be able to say something which will be reassuring to the noble Earl on the Front Bench, the Minister for Agriculture, whoso duty it will be, I suppose, to give the official answer to this Resolution. I remember very well, when first the question of appointing a Commission of this sort came into what I will call practical horse-breeding politics, going with the Duke of Portland to see Mr. Goschen, as he then was, and Lord Welby. We explained our position, and we were met by the difficulty of public money being asked for a bounty system. We were, however, able to run
    1288
    the gauntlet of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's objections, and our proposals having been most severely scrutinised, this public money was given to us. At first the sum of £2,300 was derived from Queen's Plate, and £1,000 odd from the Privy Purse, and the rest was made up by Votes on the Estimates; but since then, I believe, the whole of the grant has been put on the Estimates. I do not believe that Mr. Goschen would have admitted de minimis non, curat lex.He would no doubt have said he would not break through his principles on that sort of ground. But he did break through his principles, because he recognised that we had put forward cogent reasons which justified the finding of money for this industry, which was pining for want of assistance
    One reason why mares are not forthcoming is that you have no longer highbred idle mares in England, and you will never have good horses until idle mares are back with us again. What we really want is more help with regard to mares. The Brood Mare Society have set us a good I example. Their plan seems to be a very good one. We have not as a Commission had an opportunity of corning into close I relations with them, but we have had some correspondence, and their modus operandi seems sagacious and reasonable, and to have been crowned with as large a modicum of success as a small enterprise of that kind could hope to achieve
    I have been a member of the Royal Commission since its inception, when, in Mr. Goschen's phrase, he invited the noble Duke opposite and myself to guide its infant action, and so I can speak with some experience of the extreme faithfulness with which that Commission has performed the small services which have been entrusted to it. I asked the Secretary of the Commission to give me a short préis containing the substance of the proposals to the Commission from the Brood Mare Society. The last sentence is—
    " It is believed that the Remount Department and also the Board of Agriculture favour the plan of the Brood Mare Society, which offers a foundation on which to build further developments."
    That is a fine, vague sentence, and I should be very glad to hear from my noble friend Earl Carrington that there is something; in it. At all events, I feel that the

    1289
    future prosperity of the horse-breeding industry could hardly be in safer hands than in those of the present Minister for Agriculture, and I am sure that, as far as my noble friend is concerned, no pains will be spared to give effect, within the possible limits of political economy, to the proposals which have emanated from the Brood Mare Society, and which have been so ably stated by Lord Donoughmore.
    LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I confess that I listened with the greatest interest to the speeches that were delivered by the noble Duke below me and by the noble Lord opposite. In the days of my youth I remember hunting in my own country in the North of Scotland, but, after a time, hunting was given up. Fences were constructed, and instead of having a really good class of horse the whole breed deteriorated, and at the present moment it is almost impossible to get a horse of the class referred to in any part of that country. Some time ago a certain number of my tenants who joined the Yeomanry and required to get a lighter class of horse, asked me if I would provide them with a stallion. This I was glad to do, and the stallion I provided was very useful for several years.
    But what I found was this, that the mares were so bad that it was almost impossible to effect any real improvement in the stock; at least, it would take many years before that could be done. For that reason I heartily welcome the suggestion which has been put forward by the Brood Mare Society. I think it will have a most excellent effect, and that it will open out a new industry in the North of Scotland. If more through-bred sires were sent up it would also have a great effect if they were mixed with Highland mares, I hope that the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture will grant the assistance which has been asked for the Brood Mare Society.
    THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN: My Lords, I should like to say a word or two as to the best means of keeping good brood mares in the country. My noble friend Lord Donoughmore alluded to the stallions in Ireland. I think he rather exaggerated the case against
    1290
    them. I forget the exact number he mentioned as thoroughbreds. I cannot pretend to speak from any recent information, but I had the honour nine or ten years ago of being chairman of a Vice-Regal Commission which inquired into the question of horse-breeding in Ireland, and I think my noble friend will find that cart horses of quite a good class are reared in the North of Ireland for the purposes of the largo towns, though not for agricultural work. I think he will find also that of the stallions that are not included as thoroughbreds a great number are perfectly suitable sires for getting hunters and horses of that description; in fact, I am confident that he will find on inquiry that some of the very best horses that have been bred in Ireland have been sired by stallions which, though practically thoroughbred, are not in the book.
    Though speaking only from memory, I well recollect that over and over again in the Report of the Vice-Regal Commission to which I have referred the extreme injury being done to the industry in Ireland by the way in which the country was being denuded of brood mares was emphasised. It was not so much that the breeders, many of them small farmers, did not understand the advantages of breeding from a good mare, but that they could not withstand the temptation of the high prices they got from foreign buyers. I believe that the most cast-iron economist of the so-called free trade school will agree that if there is a danger of our home supply of horses for military purposes deteriorating it will be legitimate to take steps for safeguarding against a failure of the supply in the hour of need. I sincerely hope His Majesty's Government may be able to give some financial assistance to the scheme which my noble friend has mentioned. I think the most legitimate way of aiding this very desirable scheme would be by financial assistance, and I sincerely hope His Majesty's Government may find themselves able to give it.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON): My Lords, I desire at the outset to thank my noble friend behind me for the courteous and kind words he used as regards myself, and I need hardly assure your Lordships that

    1291
    everything I can do to promote this desirable object will be most willingly done. Noble Lords will have seen from the speeches that have been delivered to-night that it is generally agreed that horse-breeding in this country is not in a satisfactory state. As we have been told during the last ten years, there has been a sum of £8,500 annually spent, and I am bound to say well spent, by the Royal Commission.
    THE DUKE OF PORTLAND: Only £5,000 by the Royal Commission.
    EARL CARRINGTON: Yes, £5,000 by the noble Duke's Commission and £3,500 in Ireland. The names of the members of the Royal Commission are sufficient guarantee that the expenditure of this money is in wise hands, and the result has been that the King's premium stallions have visited different parts of England and have covered mares at the rate, I believe, of £2. The amount of; money at the disposal of the Royal Commission, however, compares unfavourably with the expenditure of foreign countries. I notice that in Italy £84,000 a year is spent; in Austria, £140,000 a year; in Hungary, £233,000; in Germany, £190,000; and in France, £308,000.
    Although I would be the first to admit the good work done by the Royal Commission, I respectfully suggest some reconsideration of the scope of their work, and the desirability of bringing the War Office and the Board of Agriculture into their counsels. I hope this will not be considered as in any way an impertinent suggestion; I only throw it out in the hope that the good work done by the Royal Commission may be in some way extended. The horse-breeding question has not escaped the attention of the War Office itself. Last year the War Office and the Board of Agriculture were in communication upon the subject; and in February of this year a conference was held at which the attention of the Board of Agriculture was called to the scarcity of mares. The conference found that there was a considerable decline in the export of mares excepting during last year, 1905, but this is not so satisfactory as it seems, because the value of the mares exported averaged one-third more
    1292
    than the mares imported. It is therefore, fair to assume that the foreign buyers are getting the best of our English mares.
    Farmers are, as the noble Duke said, no longer able to keep the stamp of mare that is best suited for Army work, and one of the reasons given by the noble Duke was that they get a better price for hunters and harness horses. The War Office price for a four-year-old horse is certainly small. The consequence naturally is that the farmer gets rid of all the best horses he can for harness and hunting, and the failures are sold to the Army and become remounts. Again, as the noble Duke pointed out, very few farmers now hunt; very few of them keep a saddle horse, and of course that is a matter to be regretted.
    Admitting the scarcity of mares, the question is, What is best to be done? As regards the Army I understand that in peace time there is absolutely no difficulty in getting remounts. About 5,000 horses a year are then sufficient. Some people rely on Yeomanry horses, but as far as my own experience goes it seems to me that Yeomanry horses are very much like the horses in a stage army—they appear over and over again. The Royal Bucks Hussars ride them one day; they then go over into Oxfordshire and are ridden by the Oxfordshire Yeomanry. As I have said, there is no difficulty in getting remounts in peace time; but what is to be done in the event of war? At the present moment there is no adequate reserve and no system to replenish waste, and all we have to depend on in case of war is a system of registration which I do not think is a great success.
    We have had many practical suggestions made this evening. The noble Earl opposite has asked the Government to assist in the work of the Brood Mare Society. I do not doubt that that society is serving a very good purpose, and deserving of the very greatest credit for what they have done, but I am not certain that the price proposed to be paid for the first two fillies would be sufficient to tempt the farmers to accept the offer it is proposed should be made to them. The noble Earl then suggested that the War Office should give to the Brood Mare Society mares of

    1293
    eleven or twelve years of age. My experience of a cavalry regiment is that the colonel will not cast anything so long as it has legs to stand on. I am told that 75 per cent, of these animals are probably barren, and that others suffer from various defects so that to send those old ladies to the stud would be an expensive and disappointing operation. If my noble friend can get commanding officers to send these animals when there is still some work in them thon, of course, there might be something in the suggestion. I think we are all agreed on the main point that it is desirable to encourage farmers to keep their best mares for brooding purposes, and that the Government should have some sort of lien on their progeny.
    Then comes the question of identification. It struck me when the noble Earl was speaking that there should be some guarantee that the foal was the identical foal that came from the mare handed over to the farmer. That might be secured by the Australian system of branding. I was very glad to hear that the idea, of a Government stud farm met with no favour. The noble Duke advised the Government to buy horses from farmers when they were throe years old or rising four the opinion of the noble Duke is very valuable and ought to receive every consideration, but 1 believe there are objections to that course. I would point out that the War Office Committee which sat in 1902, and was presided over by Lord Stanley, recommended that the Government should not buy any horses under five years old; and I think that to buy horses younger and to keep thorn for a year would materially add to the expense. The practical question is, is it worth while for the Government to encourage the breeding of certain classes of horses; is it right that money should be spent against the dearth of horses in the event of a great Avar, and that a large reserve should be kept up as an assurance against what we all hope is a very remote contingency, or should the country wait and " buy through the nose" if such a contingency should arise? It is really a question of expense. If more is to be done in encouraging the breeding of these horses, of course more money must be provided. But I am not Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I
    1294
    cannot pledge the Government to any future expenditure. I should be very sorry to say a single word which would' look as a pledge that this extra expenditure would be entertained; but I think that if there is a general consensus of opinion on both sides of the House, and if we can produce a well thought out scheme, it certainly would go some way to induce the Treasury to provide the necessary funds to carry out so desirable an object. I do not think I am going too' far when I say that the state of things at the present time is almost of a dangerous character, and that some remedy is absolutely necessary.
    THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I feel sure your Lordships will not contradict me when I say that this debate has been of a very interesting character, and has shown the absolute necessity of the Government's doing something to improve horse-breeding in this country the noble Earl who called attention to this matter to-night stated his case with the greatest lucidity and ability, and I am sure the sympathetic character of the speech of the noble Earl who has just sat down must have been received by him with gratification. If there is one Member of His Majesty's Government better qualified than another to deal with this subject it is my noble friend, who has had experience in the Army and as a master of hounds, and knows full well how important the breeding of good horses is to the agricultural community.
    The noble Duke pointed out that it might be advantageous to buy horses at an earlier period, and I think that suggestion might commend itself to His Majesty's Government. I have frequently tried to convince agricultural audiences in those parts of the country with which I am associated that if they wish to counteract depression in certain, branches of agriculture they can do so by breeding and rearing the best of stock, and I think the debate to-night will go far to encourage that idea. The noble Duke, who speaks on this subject with an. authority which is almost unequalled in this House, drew attention to the fact that since the King's premium horses have been located in the country unsound

    1295
    horses have more or less disappeared from competition in the great shows.
    THE DUKE OF PORTLAND: I said the number had been reduced to a great extent.
    THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think that speaks volumes for the good results of the action taken by the Royal Commission for the purpose of stamping out unsound horses. But what is the use of providing the country with first rate stallions unless you have the best of mares? Undoubtedly the best mares have left this country as a result of agricultural depression, and I welcome the statement of the noble Earl that he will impress upon his colleagues the necessity of doing something to retain mares in this country. It seems to me that the Brood Mare Society are going a long way in the endeavour to provide suitable mares.
    I was a Member of the Vice-Regal Commission presided over by my noble friend Lord Dunraven, and I remember then that the question of appealing for a sum of money to retain good mares was rejected by us. It may seem inconsistent that I should have gone back on that. But at that time we did not consider, in view of the purpose for which the Commission was held, that we were in a position to ask the Government to incur this expenditure. With regard to the identification of the animals, I think the local societies can be trusted to continue and extend the present system of marking, which would be quite adequate. I thank the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture for his sympathetic speech, and I hope he will not allow the matter to remain there. I know the difficulty of extracting money from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but if the noble Earl represents the absolute necessity of helping agriculture at the present time I do not think the Government will be behindhand in giving assistance.
    On Question, Motion agreed to.
    House adjourned at twenty minutes before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.