Lords Sitting of 6 July 1906

WORCESTER ELECTION.
Message from the Commons that they have appointed Mr. Sinclair, Mr. Harcourt, Mr. Causton, and the Comptroller of the Household to go with the Lords mentioned in their Lordships' message to wait upon His Majesty with the Address relative to the election for the city of Worcester.
EARLDOM OF NORFOLK.
Committee for Privileges met: Counsel further heard on behalf of the Duke of Norfolk: Committee adjourned to Monday next.

WORCESTER ELECTION.
The King's answer to the Address, reported by the Lord Steward (E. Liverpool), as follows:
" I have received the Joint Address of the two Houses of Parliament in reference to the Report made by the judges selected to try a Petition in respect of the Election and Return for the city of Worcester; and I have given directions accordingly for the appointments of the Gentlemen named in the Address to be Commissioners for the purpose of making the inquiry prayed for."

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3); Local Government Provisional Order (Housing of Working Classes); Local Government, Provisional Orders (No. 8).
Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill: Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11).
And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with: Great Northern Railway.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Bury Corporation Bill [H.L.], Commons Amendments considered and agreed to.
Corporation of London Blackfriars and other Bridges) Bill, Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
South Suburban Gas Bill, Read 3a, and passed.
Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway Bill, Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Hull and Barnsley Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill [H.L.], Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and: agreed to.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7.) Bill, Brought from the Commons.
Oldham and Saddleworth District Tramways (Abandonment) Bill, Brought from the Commons, read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 153.)
Tramways Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.], Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  FOREIGN JURISDICTION ACT, 1890.
  Order in Council, dated June 30th, 1906, entitled "The East Africa and Uganda (Currency) Order in Council, 1906," amending the East Africa and Uganda (Currency) Order in Council, 1905. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITY OF LONDON ACT, 1898 (UNIVERSITY COLLEGE, LONDON (TRANSFER) ACT, 1905).
  Statutes made by the Senate of the University of London, in pursuance of the University College, London (Transfer) Act, 1905, for the management of the University College, London, and Amendments to existing statutes in connection therewith.
  Statutes made by the University College Transfer Commissioners for regulating the constitution and management of (a) University College School, Hampstead; (b) the North London or University College Hospital, and the school of advanced medical studies connected therewith; and orders made by the Commissioners supplemented to the above statutes.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 152.)

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  I. Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and con firmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of—
  Light railways in the parish and urban district of Woking and in the parishes of Chobham, Horsell, and Windlesham, in the rural district of Chertsey, all in the county of Surrey.
  Light railways in the urban district of Stretford, in the county palatine of Lancaster.
  Additional light railways in the parish of Davyhulme, in the rural district of Barton-upon-Irwell, and in the parish and urban district of Stretford, in the county of Lancaster.
  II. Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and confirmed by the Board of Trade.
  Reviving the powers granted and extending the period limited by the Canterbury and Herne Bay Light Railway Order, 190.3, for the compulsory purchase of lands and extending the period limited by that Order for the completion of the railway works by that Order authorised.
  Authorising the construction of a light railway in the county of Kent from Headcorne to Maidstone.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  TIDWORTH BARRACKS.
  EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I rise to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether His Majesty's Government intend to build either a hospital, a church, or recreation rooms at Tidworth Barracks. I think it must have caused some of your Lordships considerable surprise, on reading the Question which stands in my name, to find that in barracks which have so recently been built on the most modern and approved lines there is no church, hospital, or recreation room provided for the men. Your Lordships know the enormous sums that have been spent by the late Government in purchasing Salisbury Plain, in building barracks, and in constructing railways—in fact, in making the place suitable in every way for the manœuvring of troops; and no doubt your Lordships had the comfortable assurance that while all this money was being spent adequate provision was being made in the matter of hospital, church, and recreation room accommodation for the men. I admit that I was among that class until about two months ago, when I went to Salisbury Plain with my Militia. I found that at Tidworth Barracks, which are the headquarters of the Southern Command and also of the Seventh Infantry Brigade, and where four battalions of the Line are stationed, there is no such accommodation as I have referred to. There are other buildings still wanted, such as married quarters for officers and men, but I do not intend to refer to them this evening, as no doubt they will be added later on. But the question of hospital accommodation is, in my opinion, one that should really be looked into. The contractors who built the barracks and constructed the railway line had a stipulation in their contract that in the tin houses erected for the navvies and builders engaged in the work adequate provision should be made in the way of church, hospital, and recreation rooms. But during all the time that the barracks were being built it apparently never occurred that this accommodation was also required for our soldiers.
  I should like to take, first, the question of hospitals. No doubt my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for War will inform your Lordships that there is

  337
  ample hospital accommodation at Bulford. Bulford is four miles from Tidworth, and the road is straight over the downs. I think it is very hard that a man who has broken his leg or his arm, or has met with a more serious accident, should be put into an ambulance and jogged across the open plain to Bulford Hospital. Take another case. Take a case in winter of a man suffering from a very bad cold or a bad chill. He is taken first to one small room at Tidworth Barracks which has been fitted up as a kind of receiving hospital, but he cannot be kept there for more than one day. In the event of his developing pneumonia or some still more serious illness, he is at once put into an ambulance wagon and bumped over the plain, possibly in pouring rain. The track may be very slippery and almost a quagmire in places, and sometimes it may be almost impassable through frost or snow. I am sure your Lordships will agree that this is not as it should be, and not the way our soldiers should be treated.
  Much has been heard lately of bettering the conditions under which our soldiers live, but the reverse has been the policy in connection with Tidworth Barracks. I should like to know whether my noble friend is aware of the number of desertions which have occurred on Salisbury Plain during the last two years. If so, I feel sure he will look into this matter and commence the building of these conveniences for the men as soon as possible. The noble Earl may say that it was the fault of the late Government and that they ought to have erected these buildings. Possibly they ought, but I should like to ask him if, on taking office, he found that there were any contracts for providing this accommodation, and, if so, how soon the work will be begun. I bring forward this question purely in the interest of our troops. I am sure your Lordships will feel that it is a most important matter, and I shall be only too pleased if the noble Earl can give me a satisfactory answer.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH): My Lords, I quite appreciate the spirit in which my noble friend has brought forward this matter, and in reply to his Question I may tell him that plans for a hospital at Tidworth have been
  338
  approved and that the necessary funds have just been allocated. We hope, therefore, to proceed with the building at as early a date as possible. Then, as regards the church, it was hoped to include this service in the military works loan programme, but I am sorry to say that that proposal, in common with many others, has suffered in consequence of the general decision of the Government that expenditure under the Works Act should be reduced to a minimum. I can, I fear, hold out no hope that this service will be proceeded with at present, but the Army Council recognises as fully as the noble Earl does its importance, and will not lose sight of it when any money is available.
  My noble friend also asks a question about recreation rooms at Tidworth Barracks. With regard to that, I am not quite clear what it is my noble friend alludes to. Tidworth Barracks are quite new and up-to-date, and they are, I am informed, provided with recreation rooms on a liberal scale. It is possible that my noble friend may be thinking of recreation grounds, and I may toll him, in regard to that matter, that in the final loan programme now being considered by the Army Council the sum of £1,500 has been taken up for the provision of recreation grounds for the men at Tidworth Barracks.
  THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, the answer which has just been given on behalf of the War Office is somewhat indefinite. We feel that we are placed in considerable difficulty in this neighbourhood owing to the presence of troops. I have had my attention called to one special aspect of the difficulty, arising from the occasional death of a soldier. In that event he is buried in the churchyard. I do not know whether this is the case at Tidworth, but the difficulties that are produced among the inhabitants of the parishes concerned are sometimes exceedingly great on account of the extra pressure put upon the accommodation of the churchyard. The request for church accommodation is a very real and a very important one for the inhabitants of the neighbourhood, and I earnestly trust that the War Office will see its way to make the necessary provision.
  THE LOED ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I should like to endorse what has been said by my right rev. Brother the Bishop of Winchester. When the original arrangements were contemplated and then carried out for so very greatly enlarging the number of troops who were to be in that region on the borders of Hampshire, we understood that there was no question at all that we should see all the necessary accompaniments for the higher well-being of the soldiers speedily carried into effect; and it has been a very great disappointment to those who have the highest interest at heart alike of the soldier and of the inhabitants of the parishes in which they are encamped that no steps more practical have been taken to give effect to what was comtemplated. What seems to have been left to the last is the accommodation which would enable these men to load the best kind of lives, and to have help of a moral and religious sort which is so essential everywhere, and not least in regions where troops are isolated from other opportunities of a helpful and wholesome sort. My noble friend who spoke on behalf of the War Office said that this matter will be attended to when there is money in hand; I hope it will not be left in that somewhat vague and unsatisfactory position, but that we shall before long receive some practical assurance that the buildings are to be proceeded with.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: Can the noble Earl the Under-Secretary tell us whether the plans for this hospital as now approved differ very materially in form from the plans that were approved last year?
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: It is rather difficult for me to answer in detail, but, having seen the plans, my impression is that they do not differ very materially.

  CHINESE ON THE RAND.
  The LORD BISHOP OF HEREFORD: My Lords, I rise to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can fully explain the circumstances under which licences for the introduction to the Rand mines of 16,000 additional Chinese coolies were issued all at once last
  340
  autumn; what reasons of urgency, if any, existed for such a wholesale issue at that particular moment; and what officials were directly or indirectly responsible for this proceeding, and whether they were aware of the opinion expressed by the then Secretary of State that it was desirable to suspend the issue of further licences; and what assurance he can give that the portion of those 16,000 licences still unused will now be cancelled so that the importation of Chinese may now cease.
  Since my Question was put on the Paper I understand that it has been partially answered in another place. At the same time I feel that there are points in it which deserve a further answer, and I hope, therefore, that the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies will forgive my venturing still to put the Question to him. If he should think it right to repeat any answers that have been already given I feel that the repetition will do good, on the sound principle, repetitio docet. In putting the Question I wish to assure the noble Earl that I myself and a very large number of persons up and down the country, especially among the middle and working classes, who feel exactly as I do on this matter, desire in no way to hamper the noble Earl in the administration of the very difficult task imposed upon him. We know too well what a difficult task it is, what a damnosa he has come into, and what a battle he has to fight. Our desire is to help him. If I may use the phrase, in this Battle of Amalek we wish to hold up his band so that he may be strengthened to carry his efforts to final conclusion, and we believe that we strengthen him by reminding him of the intense feeling which prevails in the country on this subject.
  I am very well aware that in certain quarters attempts are made to make light of this feeling, but there is no doubt about it that the great mass of Christian people in this country feel very deeply and very intensely on this matter of Chinese servitude under the Ordinance —and we are not content to call it by any other name than Chinese servitude. As I have said, we are well aware that this feeling is ignored, or attempted to be ignored, in various quarters. I believe it is really ignored in the minds of those who, seeing things under modern influences and

  341
  through what I might venture to call a certain South African golden haze, are no longer able to distinguish between freedom and slavery, or the essentials of freedom and the essentials of slavery as they used to be understood when I was a young man. Yet, again, I am conscious that there are a good many persons, some in this House and a good many in the Metropolis, who live so detached from the great streams of the national life among the common people that they do not understand the intensity of the feeling on this question, and it is because we desire to keep before the mind of the noble Earl how very deep and real this feeling is in the minds of the mass of serious English people that we venture to press this question.
  There are many other questions which we should like to ask the noble Earl, only we do not wish to hamper him in any way. There are questions arising in the minds of most of us every day to which we should like to be sure that the right answer is being given. For instance, why should not the employers of this great, multitude of foreign serfs bear all the expenditure on the special police supervision necessary in consequence of the importation of the Chinese into the country? Again, why should they not be liable for all damage done by such serfs as escape from their confinement? If any of us happen to own a dog which worries a farmer's sheep we are liable for damages. I think the analogy applies exactly. These men the moment they escape into freedom become deserters and outlaws, and a danger—a fearful danger—to society. I think it is reasonable that, under these circumstances, whatever damage they do should be compensated by their employers.
  Then, with regard to the outrages, we do keep asking ourselves every day how long are our fellow-subjects in South Africa to live under such conditions as we hear of day by day? I wonder sometimes what would be the feeling expressed in this House if we who are members of it had to sleep every night with a revolver or rifle by our side, and if we did not dare to leave our country homes even to attend this House because of our fear lest our homes should be blown up by dynamite and our children and wives should suffer we know not what outrage. I maintain that if we are to have an
  342
  Empire of which we may be truly proud the conditions of free and happy life should be the same in every part. But, in spite of all these feelings, I do not put these questions to the noble Earl, because I do not wish to hamper him. The question which I put has, however, one or two details in it which I venture to think deserve further consideration.
  I have not been able to find out what urgency existed last November for the issue of so many thousands of fresh licences, and there are many people, in the country who would be glad to be shown that that was necessary. Still more, I fail entirely to understand why the officials on the spot at that time did not act on the advice of the late Colonial Secretary and refuse to issue that enormous number of additional and prospective licences. As I understand the Ordinance, it was quite within the power of the high officials on the spot to have held their hand and to have said, "No. You have the advice of the Colonial Secretary that it is desirable to suspend the issue of licences. We will follow that advice." If that had been done I think we should never have heard of those 16,000 licences being issued. Finally, I still desire to ask the noble Earl—When will the actual importation cease? I understand that that question has been in a sense answered in another place, but it would be a satisfaction to some of us to know whether, as a matter of fact, after next November no single Chinese serf will be allowed to set foot in South Africa. That is really the point we wish to arrive at, so that we may then be able to say that wherever a man sets his foot within the British Empire he is a free man. That completes the questions I have to ask the noble Earl.
  My last word shall be a simple and plain word on the moral aspect of this question. We cannot but have felt, your Lordships generally must have felt, that it was somewhat surprising that we heard so little in public concerning the moral aspect of this great question. I therefore desire to press it on the noble Earl's attention for the moment, and I do so for two reasons. My first reason is this, that our commercial Empire is suffering from what I hold to be a very ominous growth of servile labour, and of

  343
  all forms of servile labour that under the Chinese Ordinance is infinitely the worse with which I have become acquainted. I hold—I may be wrong—that one of the great moral dangers of which we have to think in connection with the administration of this vast Empire of ours is this growth of indentured servile labour. Your Lordships may perhaps feel that an assertion of that kind from a person like myself is not of much value. I will therefore venture to quote what was lately said by a very distinguished Englishman on this subject, one of the most distinguished men of letters and historians living amongst us —Mr. Frederic Harrison. Mr. Harrison, after referring to the seriousness to the Empire of the increasing magnitude of the servile problem, goes on to remind us how adventurous spirits, generally calling themselves Imperialists, and thirsting to make fortunes in haste, are helping to increase what is a very ominous danger to the Empire. Another thing he reminds us of is this, that under these and other influences the British horror of all forms of slavery—which was so ardent in the first half of the ninteenth century and was inspired, let us always remember, by the Gospel as the rule of life, which was the inspiration of men like Clarkson and Wilberforce— has been steadily evaporating of late years, to the tremendous loss of our national character.
  My other reason for reminding the noble Earl of the moral aspect of the question is that it has been so little noticed in the public discussion of this Chinese business. I sometimes think that a great many persons who touch upon the question of Chinese serfdom in South Africa pass over this moral aspect from feelings of decency. They do not like to concentrate the attention of their hearers on the moral corruption which must inevitably ensue to a whole community by introducing this aggregation of many thousands of low-class celibate serfs into that community. I desire to say, with all possible emphasis, that in the opinion of all Christian people it is herein lies the abomination of this business. It is on this account that we desire to see the immigration cease. I hope the noble Earl and his colleagues will be able to rid our Empire of this morally unclean state of things which I hold to be a discredit to our name as a
  344
  Christian country. I put the Question standing in my name.
  THE SECRETARY or STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ELGIN): My Lords, I hope I may assure the right rev. Prelate that I entirely appreciate the good will he has expressed and his intention. I am by no means ignorant of the fact that he represents a great mass of feeling in this country. The right rev. Prelate referred particularly to the necessity for additional police protection against outrages which have occurred in connection with the presence of Chinese coolies in the Transvaal. We have had a good deal of communication with the High Commissioner on the subject, and we have every hope that the precautions he is prepared to take, following the recommendations of a Committee he appointed, will have the effect of checking these lamentable occurrences.
  I may add that I have always expressed it as my opinion that the cost of the additional police superintendence which is required in this connection might very fairly be a charge on the industry which employs Chinese labour; for that would be only following precedent common in this country, to the effect that when large works are undertaken and there is a large influx of population, sometimes of a rough description, into a particular locality, it is within the power and it may be the duty of the local authority in charge of the police, not only to add to the strength the force, but to call upon the employers of that labour to contribute to the cost incurred on their account.
  Really in answer to the Question on the Paper I have little to say that I have not said before or which has not appeared in Papers presented to Parliament. I may just repeat shortly, as the right rev. Prelate thinks that repetition may do good in this matter, that the position in regard to these licences is this. When we came into office we found these licences had been issued; we took the best legal advice on the subject from the Attorney-General of the Transvaal and from our own advisers in this country; and we came to the conclusion that, these licences having been legally issued, we could not set them aside without arbitrary action or ex post facto legislation, and we thought it our duty to take the less, objectionable course.

  345
  I do not know that it would serve any useful purpose to review again the circumstances in which the licences were issued or examine the question whether there was premeditation involved. With astute business men it is quite possible that, engaged as they were in a speculative enterprise, they were acute enough to foresee the course of events. At any rate, I am convinced in my own mind that, so far as Government is concerned, both in the colony and at home, there was no collusion in the matter. In the colony the issue of licences was in the hands of the Lieutenant-Governor. I have had the advantage of more than one interview with the Lieutenant-Governor, and I feel certain that there was nothing in connection with his issue of these licences inconsistent with the high character which Sir A. Lawley bears as a servant of the Crown.
  With regard to the Government at home, I ventured in an earlier debate to express an opinion that they had very considerable responsibility in the matter. I thought then, and I still think, that their management of the whole transaction was so loose and inaccurate that it gave an opportunity for the introduction into what was, or ought to have been, an experimental stage conditions that gave a far greater amount of permanency than they probably were, aware of. The right rev. Prelate has referred to a telegram which has been mentioned before, and which is not printed, but is referred to in the Papers which have been laid before your Lordships, in which my predecessor expressed an opinion that the mineowners would be wise if they suspended importation. These words occurred as a more obiter dictum at the end of a telegram upon other matters, and were in no sense an instruction from the Secretary of State; it was not addressed to the Lieutenant-Governor, but it came, I believe, into his hands, and it was therefore not surprising if it was not acted upon by the Lieutenant-Governor or communicated to mineowners.
  The right rev. Prelate has asked in his Question what assurance I can give that the portion of these 16,000 licences still unused will now be cancelled so that the importation of Chinese may cease. The announcement has been made in another place that we propose to fix November
  346
  30th as the date upon which the devolution of the functions of the Consular officers in China to Transvaal immigration authorities shall cease. In our opinion that is the easiest and simplest way of stopping further importation; but I should like to say that in this matter we have by no means departed from the position we took up at the beginning in regarding the validity of these licences as established. The calculation we received on December 30th last was that, taking the shipments at 1,900 coolies per ship, the 16,000 coolies could be and might be, imported by October next, but in order to give a margin, and not to deal unfairly in this matter, we have fixed November 30th as the date at which importation in any new form should cease. I do not mean to say—and I hope the right rev. Prelate will not misunderstand me—thata ship may not arrive with coolies on board after that date, because, as I say, it is on that date that we withdraw the power of recruiting in China. At any rate before the end of the year their importation into the Colony will have ceased, and my belief is that the whole of the coolies that are to be imported will be imported before that time.
  I should like to say that we believe this to be a necessary part of the policy which we put before your Lordships earlier in the session. We announced that it was in our view necessary that the present Ordinance, the conditions of which we consider undesirable, should cease before the new Government of the Transvaal took up its duties. In order that this end may be achieved, we think it is necessary that this date should be fixed, and that there should be no longer a question of the importation of additional coolies during the time at which we hope the general elections for these new bodies are proceeding.
  I hope that your Lordships will agree that when questions of this character have been raised I have endeavoured to deal with them guardedly and in a moderate manner; but I should be sorry if the right rev. Prelate, or any of those who think very keenly on this subject in a different direction from that of noble Lords on the other side of the House, thought that this proceeded from any difference on my part from the policy which has been declared on the part of the Government in another

  347
  place with great courage and with great self-restraint by my hon. friend who represents the Colonial Office in that House. On the contrary, I am hound to confess that the effect on my mind of the transactions in which I have been compelled to bear a part is increasingly this —that under present conditions the position of this question is becoming increasingly untenable, and that there are conditions in the Ordinance which to my mind are inconsistent with the rights of free labour, which are the tradition of the British Empire.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the right rev. Prelate treated your Lordships to a repetition of arguments which have been many times used in this House, and some of which, at any rate, I must say seem to me to lose a great deal of force when considered by the light of the facts of which we have now become aware. The right rev. Prelate reaffirmed his belief that the Chinese coolies could only be properly described as slaves. I was under the impression that the question of slavery had been disposed of by the statement made in this House earlier by my noble friend Lord Crewe, who used those words—
  " I also, like my noble friend behind me —
  I think he referred to the noble Marquess the Leader of the House—
  "have never used the word 'slavery' in connection with the importation of Chinese coolies into South Africa because I do not regard it as an accurate term."
  Not only is that the case, but, unless I am very much mistaken, we now know that these Chinamen, having been given an opportunity of leaving South Africa and of returning to their own country on extremely tempting, if not extravagantly generous, terms, have only availed them selves to a very limited degree of the opportunity thus placed within their, reach. If I am correct in that statement it seems to me, by itself, to be sufficient to dispose of the charge of slavery.
  My Lords, I make no complaint whatever of the manner in which the Colonial Secretary referred to the part taken by the High Commissioner and by the Lieutenant-Governor in the matter of the i licences for these 16,000 men. It is admitted that the licences were issued by the Lieutenant-Governor in accord-
  348
  ance with the regulations then in force and in the discharge of what he conceived to be his right and his duty. But, my Lords, I noticed one expression that fell from the noble Earl which seemed to me to require a little further elucidation. He spoke, as I understood him, in reference to this particular transaction, of what he called the loose and inaccurate conduct of His Majesty's late Ministers. Now, my Lords, it is perfectly clear that the issue of these licences took place without the knowledge of the Secretary of State, and that the local authorities were fully competent to issue them, and for the life of me I cannot see where the charge of looseness and inaccuracy comes in. I should not have risen from my place to-night had it not been for that incidental expression made use of by the noble Earl.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of RIPON): My Lords, I cannot share the feeling of my noble friend who has just sat down, who seemed to condemn the course followed by my right rev. friend, if he will allow me to call him so, in bringing this subject before your Lordships. We all know the strength of the feelings of my right rev. friend. He has said nothing to-night which he has not said before. He has only repeated that which, from very strong conviction, he has long entertained, and I am bound to say I think he was perfectedly entitled to do that, and to lay before your Lordships the view which he takes of this question.
  The right rev. Prelate considers that the system which exists in regard to Chinese labour in South Africa is a system of slavery. I do not agree with the light rev. Prelate. I have always said in this House and outside that the particular expression " slavery " did not apply to this case. I have called it " semi-slavery; " others have described it as " tainted with slavery." Those expressions I accept; to those expressions I adhere; but I have never myself called it a system of slavery, nor do I call it so now. I do not know that I should have followed the brief remarks of my noble friend opposite had it not been for what he said with regard to one expression which fell from my noble friend behind me, the Secretary of State, in which he criticised what he described

  349
  as the loose proceedings of His Majesty's late Government. I have no wish to make this a question between the two Governments. I understood my noble friend the Secretary of State to refer to this fact, that whereas there was an indication in a telegram from Mr. Lyttelton that he, the then Secretary of State, thought it would be wise on the part of the mine owners in South Africa to suspend, for the time at all events, the importation of Chinese into that country, nothing came of that expression, and that, instead of suspending it, the mineowners asked for a very much larger number to be imported. While I do not wish to criticise the language of Mr. Lyttelton, I still hold that that was a loose method of conducting business. I think that that expression of opinion on the part of Mr. Lyttelton should have been communicated to the mineowners. If it was not communicated to them, as I understand was the case, then, of course, they are not responsible for having set it aside, but it does indicate, in my opinion, precisely that which my noble I friend described as a loose mode of conducting public business. That, I think, was what my noble friend meant, and I hold that it was a fair and just criticism. The steps which His Majesty's Government have taken are intended to bring the importation of Chinese labourers under indenture into the Transvaal to an end at the close of the present year— at an end, that is to say, before the new Legislature in the Transvaal comes into operation. That will leave to them a fair and free field for dealing with this question, and it will put an end, until they have dealt with it, to a system , which, whatever noble Lords opposite may think of it, is a system largely and widely and honestly condemned by a large portion of the people of this country.
  LORD STANMORE: My Lords, the right rev. Prelate in his speech to-night brought to your Lordships' notice the moral aspect of the importation of Chinese indentured labour into South Africa. I think he was quite right, for the matter is a very grave one. I should like to point out to him, and also to the House, that if the presence of indentured labour be required in South Africa, it is not necessary to resort to the drastic remedy that the right rev. Prelate suggests of
  350
  sending all these immigrants out of the country. The dangers apprehended might to a great degree be met by the adoption in that colony of the law which, as I have repeatedly pointed out in this House, is enforced in every other colony introducing immigrant indentured labour —namely, that no large number of male I immigrants should be allowed to be introduced unless accompanied by a proportion, though not an equal proportion, of female immigrants. I wish to point that out to the right rev. Prelate and to the House, and I should like to see some notice taken by His Majesty's Ministers of the repeated warnings that I have given in regard to the subject. There is the grave danger; it has been pointed out repeatedly, and has been dwelt on by the most rev. Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. I will not say there is any one in fault. Without knowing all the circumstances I do not desire to imply blame; but this I do say, that unless there are reasons accounting for it the apparent indifference to that matter would appear to imply a callous disregard of the moral dangers involved in the question, both on the part of the local authorities in South Africa and of His Majesty's Government both past and present at home.

CONVEYANCING BILL [H.L.]; SETTLED LAND BILL [H.L.];

  MARRIED WOMEN'S PROPERTY BILL [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bills to be read 3a on Tuesday next.
  House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.