Lords Sitting of 25 May 1905

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Bill [H.L.]. Commons Amendments considered and agreed to.
Matlock Bath Improvement Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Dublin Corporation (Superannuation) Bill; South Oxifordshire Water and Gas Bill. Reported, without Amendment.
Morley Corporation Bill; Barrymore Estate Bill [H.L.]; Brentwood Gas Bill; Great Central Railway (Pension Fund) Bill [H.L.]; North Sussex Gas Bill; Colne Corporation Bill; Aylesbury Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments.
Wellingborough and District Tram-roads and Electricity Supply Bill [H.L.]; Acton Sewage Bill. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Clifford of Chudleigh be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Hare (E. Listowel); read, and agreed to.
Ealing Corporation Bill. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on Thursday and Friday last discharged, and Bill committed.
London United Tramways (Extension of Time) Bill. Read 2a, and committed.
Nottingham Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Seaham Gas Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Ilfracombe Harbour and Improvement Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments;
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further Amendments made; Bill passed and returned to the Commons.
Great Northern, Piccadilly, and Brompton Railway (No. 1) Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
Tralee Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Wellingborough and District Tramroads and Electricity Supply Bill [H.L.]; Acton Sewage Bill. Leave given to the Select Committee to adjourn over To-morrow, and not to sit on Monday next till half-past Twelve o'clock.
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Liverpool, etc.) Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London No. 2) Bill [H.L.]. Amendment reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.
Alexander Scott's Hospital Order Confirmation Bill; Grangemouth Waterworks and Burgh Extension Order Confirmation Bill; Arbroath Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill. Read 3a (according to order), and passed.

PETITIONS.
Intoxicating Liquors (Hours of Closing) Bill [H.L.]. Petitions in favour of; of the London Auxiliary of the United Kingdom Alliance; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  CERTIFIED INEBRIATE REFORMA TORIES (SCOTLAND).
  General regulations for the management and discipline of certified inebriate reformatories in Scotland.
  Sixty-sixth Annual Report of the Deputy-Keeper of the Public Records.

  RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
  Returns of cases of derailment of engines of passenger trains into which inquiries have been held by the inspecting officers of railways during the twenty years ended 31st December, 1904, divided into (1) tank engines, and (2) tender engines, showing in each case the date, place of accident, and railway, and the class of engine.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY OF DUR HAM).
  Order made by the county council of the county of Durham, altering certain polling districts. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  ARUNDEL PORT.
  Account aud Report for 1904–1905. Delivered (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  THE WHITSUNTIDE RECESS.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, it would be convenient if the noble Marquess the Leader of the House could inform us what arrangements he proposes to make for the Whitsuntide holidays.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, the noble Earl has allowed me to discuss this matter privately with him, and I have consulted other Members of the House. I propose that we should sit until the Friday before Whit Sunday, that the business of the House should be interrupted for a fortnight, which is, I believe, the usual time, and that we should reassemble on Monday, June 26th.

  EXTRADITION BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, a Convention has been concluded between His Majesty and the President of the United States for including in the list of crimes on account of which extradition may be granted certain offences, and, amongst others, bribery; and it is provided by the Convention that it shall come into force within ten days after publication in conformity with the laws of the high contracting parties. Bribery is not at present included in the list of crimes in the First Schedule to the Extradition Act, 1870, and the Convention cannot be published in conformity with the laws of the United Kingdom until bribery is so included. This Bill, therefore, enacts that the Extradition Act, 1870, shall be construed as if bribery were included in the list of crimes in the First Schedule to that Act. I think your Lordships will agree that it is highly desirable that effect should be given to the agreement which has been come to between the two countries.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND) (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to order). Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY MEDALS BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  *THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of DONOUGH-MORE): My Lords, the two Amendments standing in my name have been

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  drafted in accordance with the request made at the previous stage by the noble Lord behind me, Lord Muskerry, who pointed out that there was a certain medal which he did not think was covered by the Bill. It was certainly our object that the Bill should cover such a medal, and I beg to move these Amendments to make that clear.
  Amendments moved—
  "In Clause 1, page 1, line 6, after the word 'issued' to insert the words 'by His 'Majesty'; and in line 7, after the word 'forces' to insert the words 'or any other persons'."—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
  On Question, Amendments agreed to.
  Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 88.)

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  *THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords, this Bill proposes various reforms in legal administration in Ireland, which are considered by those most concerned as likely to be useful and advantageous and to greatly simplify matters. The first provision in the Bill is one to enable the hearing and dispatch at any winter assizes of any civil business other than traverses. It was found that owing to the construction of some of the statutes it was necessary that the transaction of civil business at winter assizes should be authorised in this way by Parliament. The next provision is to regulate future appointments in the Principal Registry of the Probate and Matrimonial Branch of the King's Bench Division, and to provide that junior clerkships, like those in other divisions, shall be filled by open competition. There is also a provision with regard to the extension of powers to make rules of Court which places this matter on a satisfactory basis. Provision, too, is made for appointments in the Registration of Tithe Officer. There is also an
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  attempt—a successful one, I believe it will be—to remedy in this Bill a mistake that was made in the Statute Law Revision Act, 1893. No matter how carefully that work is done sometimes a slip may be made, and in the particular matter dealt with in this Bill an error was committed, and we seek in this Bill to set that matter right. There is also a proposal to remove a grievance in the matter of the constitution of local election Courts. It has been found that the selection of the barrister who was to try the matter was hampered owing to the technicalities surrounding the appointment, and that matter is sought to be put right in this Bill. I hope your Lordships will see no difficulty in granting the Bill a Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Ashbourne.)
  On Question Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

  DISLOYALTY OF IRISH SCHOOL TEACHERS.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether it is a fact that at the annual dinner in connection with the Irish National Teachers' Association, held at Sligo on 26th April, a certain number of teachers left the room when the health of His Majesty the King was proposed, and many others refused to rise from their seats to honour the toast; and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to take any steps to prevent such teachers from inculcating disloyalty among the children who attend their schools.
  I do not intend to detain your Lordships at any length, but I make no excuse for bringing this matter forward, believing as I do that it is one which may fitly engage the attention of your Lordships' House and the serious consideration of the people of this country. There is no subject to which public attention has been more closely directed during the last few years than that of education. We have been almost led to believe that in education we shall find a panacea for all the ills

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  to which human flesh is heir, and it is not astonishing that on a subject of such importance we find many differences of opinion. There are some who hold that our system of education has been so improved and brought up to date that it is adapted to meet the requirements of the present generation. There are others who tell us that we have still much to learn from what is being done in foreign countries. There are those who hold that children should be brought up in the faith of their fathers, but there are others who would limit their religious instruction to such portions of Christian faith as recommend themselves to the conscience of Mr. Lloyd-George. But, my Lords, however great the difference may be on all these subjects, there is one point on which all parties in this country are agreed, which will recommend itself equally to the heads of the Roman Catholic Heirarchy and to the most extreme Welsh dissenters, to the right rev. bench and to the leaders of agnosticism, and that is that all the children of this country should be taught to take a pride in the history of the English race, with a confidence in the future of the British Empire and with a loyalty to the gracious Sovereign under whose benignant sway we enjoy a security and a freedom which make us the envy of many foreign nations.
  Very different, I regret to say, is the state of feeling across St. George's Channel. Owing to religious differences very little history can be taught, and what little is taught appears to me to consist mainly of a collection of fairy tales of doughty deeds wrought by Erse robber chiefs, who are dignified by the name of Kings and who one by one succumbed to the advance of the hated Saxon. Everywhere you find that England is regarded as the oppressor of Ireland, and England is represented by England's King. I am sure that those noble Lords who hail from the sister Isle will agree with me when I say that we heard of the behaviour of the Irish national teachers at Sligo with more sorrow than surprise. It grieves us, it fills us with resentment, but it causes no astonishment. We are only too accustomed to the rampant disloyalty of our Nationalist fellow-countrymen. We
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  know that throughout three provinces of Ireland there is hardly an assembly of any kind at which the King's health is proposed. We know that many of the public bodies have had the words, "On His Majesty's Service" removed from their paper and the words "On the Public Service" inscribed in their stead. Worse than that, we know that in many places a black flag was hoisted on the public buildings on the occasion of His Majesty's Coronation; and so I say that though we grieve at this new instance of disloyalty we cannot profess to be surprised at it.
  We are often told in England that the Nationalists of Ireland are perfectly loyal, that all they are anxious to obtain is some extension of local government, the right to manage their own as apart from Imperial affairs. But, my Lords, we who live in Ireland know that this is not the case. The words "Loyalist" and "Nationalist" are not interchangeable terms, and the very fons et origo of the demand for Home Rule lies in hatred of England. We are all aware, if I may say so with all respect, that our gracious Sovereigns win golden opinions wherever they go, and Ireland was no exception to the rule. Those with whom they came in contact fell under the magnetic charm, but, after all, the opinions of a life-time are, I fear, not done away with in a moment, and the inborn dislike of this country overcomes ere long all transient impressions. My Lords, if a proof is needed of the truth of my statements, can a better one be found than in the conduct of these national school teachers at the dinner at Sligo? These are no ignorant peasants, blindly led astray by agitators; these are men who have been carefully trained at the expense of the State to teach the coming generation of Irishmen. These men are officials of the State; they are not paid by local bodies. I wish I could inpress this fact on every taxpayer in England and Scotland. It is with their money that these men are paid to inculcate disloyalty among the children of Ireland. For can we doubt that they do teach it?
  I do not for a moment accuse every Nationalist schoolmaster in Ireland of disloyalty. I am glad to say that I believe there are many notable exceptions,

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  but, if you wish to know their view as a body, how can it be better judged than at a dinner held on the occasion of their annual conference? "By their fruits ye shall know them." Teachers now in active employment and in receipt of Government pay may not be very anxious openly to express their views; but may I quote to your Lordships the words of Mr. Seumas Macmanus, for some time a national teacher, in a letter to the Irish Independent, extracts from which appeared in The Times of May 16th. Mr. Macmanus, writing with reference to the custom of drinking the King's health, says that—
  "The custom has been tolerated too long in Ireland and it is the duty of every Irishman to make active protest."
  Mr. Macmanus defends the national school teachers who refused to honour the loyal toast at Sligo, and continues—
  "The Irish youth who quits school without realising his duties as a rebel is, or should be, a discredit to his schoolmaster as well as to his country."
  Mr. Macmanus was himself a national teacher for some years, and he says that during that time his salary was well earned—
  "So far, at least, as the stirring of discontent and the dissemination of rebellions opinions were concerned."
  Does not this disclose a serious state of affairs? Does not this call for a remedy?
  I ask His Majesty's Government what they are prepared to do. I cannot venture to advise them. The education of the children of Ireland ought, it appears to me, to be made a powerful factor in the pacification of the country. Unless you, have a loyal population you will never have a reconciled Ireland. We see that nowadays these children are being trained as "rebels," and I personally 'believe that this is being greatly helped by the assistance which is being given in national schools, out of Imperial funds, to revive the long-disused Gaelic language, which is of no earthly practical use to anybody in the world, and which is only made use of by agitation for the purpose of fostering an anti-British feeling. I acknowledge that the task of His Majesty's Government is no easy one, and that drastic measures may, perhaps, be
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  worse than none at all; but surely some means might be taken to encourage loyalty in the training colleges where these teachers receive their education, and it might be made compulsory for the National Anthem to be taught and sung in all national schools. We are told that we must do our best to propitiate Irish feeling, but in this case English and Scottish feeling must also be considered, for it is with English and Scottish money that these schools are supported, and these teachers are paid. I beg to put the Question which stands in my name.
  *THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, I venture to trespass on your attention in order to supplement the Question which has been asked by my noble friend. The noble Lord dwelt very fully on the incident as it is reported in the newspapers, and he also commented, very rightly, on the peculiar circumstances that attach to this incident, in that these men accused of disloyalty are schoolmasters having the charge of the future generation of Irishmen in their hands. I think your Lordships will agree with me that youth is the most impressionable part of one's life. The ideas that are imbued in a child are the ideas that remain longer than any other; they are the most deep-rooted and the most difficult to eradicate. We had an object-lesson in South Africa, where I was told over and over again by different Boers that one of the reasons for the great feeling of hatred towards England and the English race was that Dutch-speaking children from their very earliest years were taught in their schools to hate England and the English. Here, if the circumstances are as we are given to understand they are by the Press, we have the very same thing happening at our very door, or, I may say, in our own house. Whatever one's politics may be, whether one be a strong advocate of the policy of Home Rule or an enthusiastic Unionist, as I am, no one can approve of such action as these schoolmasters are accused of.
  The noble Lord who called attention to this question said he would not venture to make any suggestion to His Majesty's Government, but I

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  am going to suggest that they should make full inquiry into this remarkable incident, if only in order that these schoolmasters may have an opportunity of clearing their characters from the serious accusation that has been made. Those who live in Ireland will agree with me that Irishmen are easily led in this matter. In this country a Hyde Park orator may make a speech and say, "Let's go and blow up St. Paul's,' but no one takes any notice of him, and St. Paul's remains. But it is not so in Ireland. Unless notice is taken of inflammatory speeches and strong Government disapproval shown, it is attributed, in the South and West of Ire-and at any rate, not to a policy of clemency but to weakness. I venture most sincerely to hope that we shall hear from His Majesty's Government that they have taken, are taking, or will take, such measures as will lead to full inquiry being made into this incident; land if, unhappily, the accusation is proved to be true, then the schoolmasters should be removed from the positions which by such action they have proved themselves unworthy of filling.
  LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord who called attention to this question, for I do not think that hatred of England is really implanted in the hearts of most of my countrymen. They extend a hearty-welcome to English tourists, and I do not think there is really any hatred in Ireland of the "brutal Saxon." Hatred of England does not lie at the root of disloyal demonstrations. The real secret is that these people have found that by agitation, disloyal speeches, and the like, the Government will give in to them, and they will get what they want.
  *THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (The Marquess of LONDONDERRY): My Lords, the three noble Lords who have spoken are thoroughly acquainted with Ireland and perfectly qualified to speak on the subject. I confess I followed the speech of my noble friend who put this Question with a certain amount of difficulty. I could not quite gather whether he expected
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  me to defend the Board of Education from the attacks of Mr. Lloyd-George or confine myself entirely to the Question on the Paper. If he will allow me, I will deal with the Question on the Paper, for I shall have many opportunities in the future of alluding to Mr. Lloyd-George and his line of policy in regard to education in England and Wales. I am certain that the action of those teachers to which the noble Lord has referred will be disapproved by every Member of your Lordships' House, and I was glad to hear from the noble Earl opposite (Lord Arran) that they will be glad to have the opportunity of clearing their characters from the serious accusation that has been made.
  THE EARL OF ARRAN: All I stated was that I hoped His Majesty's Government would give them an opportunity of doing so.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I gathered from what the noble Earl said that if they were given an opportunity of clearing themselves they would gladly do so.
  THE EARL OF ARRAN: I have no reason to suppose that they will be able to clear themselves; but it was natural to imagine that, being servants of the Crown, they would be glad of an opportunity of clearing themselves if they could.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Nothing would give me greater pleasure personally than that they should be able to do so. Such action represents the feeling of only a very small minority of the people in Ireland, the vast majority of whom regard the name of their Sovereign not only with respect but with affection since the visit of Their Majesties, to Ireland and their manifestation of interest in the industries and welfare of that country. It is extremely difficult for the Government to obtain information of what really took place at the banquet in question. The only information we have at present is the report in the Sligo Champion, and from the wording of the Question of the noble Lord I have no doubt that it is couched in terms drawn

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  from that journal. I gather from this journal that a, number of the invited guests, including some clergymen, having observed that the first toast on the printed programme was that of "The King," decided to leave immediately, and they did so, being unwilling to participate in a function where the toast was a feature. I understand that the toast was actually proposed, when, it appears, the majority of those present, guests and congress delegates, remained seated. That is all the information we have been able to obtain, and I cannot gather from the Press or from any other source of information that any speech was delivered by any of these people. Mr. Macmanus, to whom the noble Lord referred, is no longer a teacher.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: I stated that he was no longer a teacher; but he described what he used to do when he was a teacher and under the control of the Education Department.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: He is no longer a teacher. If he had been we should have known how to deal with him, and we should have dealt with him. But, as he is no longer a teacher, he is not under the control of the Irish Government. The Government referred the matter to the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland for inquiry, and they have reported that they have no information which would justify them in taking any action and that they have no means of obtaining such information. Noble Lords opposite laugh, but I do not quite know how the Government are to obtain information by any other means than through the local paper. His Majesty's Government feel as strongly as any noble Lord in this House that it is, and must be, absolutely disastrous to the interests of the rising generation if they are allowed to have inculcated in their minds feelings of disloyalty, and if it can be shown that any teacher is inculcating such feelings we will take the earliest opportunity of going into the matter and of seeing that that course of action is not repeated.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, with all respect to the noble Marquess, I cannot refrain from expressing my strong opinion that there are means of obtaining this information if the Government had desired to avail themselves of them. We all know how information is secured in Ireland; it is obtained very easily, and I do not think it is at all satisfactory that Questions asked by noble Lords from Ireland should be anwered in this way. The information could be obtained more easily by His Majesty's Government than by private individuals. When there are cases of alleged crime the Government find no difficulty whatever in obtaining information, and I contend that it is their bounden duty in cases of this kind, when asked for information, to take the means they have in their power of obtaining that information.
  THE DUKE OF RUTLAND: I should like to ask who was the chairman of the meeting, and whether any question has been addressed to him as to what occurred.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: The name of the chairman is in the local paper.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I find that the chairman is here stated to be Mr. Hazlett, M.A., president of the organisation.
  VICOUNT GOSCHEN: I agree with the noble Duke beside me that the chairman of the meeting should be asked for an explanation. If a question were addressed to the chairman we would be able to discover whether this incident occurred. If there is a general feeling of loyalty among those teachers they will be able to repudiate it and to furnish the Government with the necessary reply to the charge.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think that suggestion is a practical one, and, without pledging myself in any way, I will communicate with the Chief Secretary and ask him whether a question might not be addressed to the chairman for the purpose of obtaining further information.

  THE UNITED IRISH LEAGUE.
  *THE EARL OF DARTREY*THE EARL OF DARTREY rose to call attention to the United Irish League meeting at Scotshouse, county Monaghan, on Sunday, the seventh of this month, at which an inflammatory address, suggesting outrage and murder, is stated to have been delivered; and to ask what steps His Majesty's Government propose to take in consequence. He said: My Lords, I desire to call the attention of your Lordships' House to the recent proceedings of the United Irish League in the county in which I live, because from the accounts that have reached me they appear to have been of a very remarkable character. The meeting to which I refer took place on Sunday, the 7th instant, at Scotshouse, county Monagan. It does not appear to have been advertised beforehand, which possibly accounts for the local police sergeant knowing nothing about it; indeed, when the meeting commenced he was absent in a neighbouring town on other business, but I believe he got back in time to hear a good deal of what passed at the meeting. Much may be learnt from the Press reports. I may especially refer to two Nationalist papers—the Dundalk Democrat and the Anglo-Celt. From these I learn that—
  "At last Mass it (the meeting) was announced from the puplit by Mr. McElroy, the parish priest, who called on the people to attend and hear the advice which would be given them by Mr. Lynam, organiser, who was present as the accredited representative of the Irish Parliamentary Party."
  I had better begin with an incident, perhaps trivial in itself, but which gained importance from the way it was used. As the proceedings were about to commence, according to the Anglo-Celt—
  "Mr. J. C. Madden, of Hilton Park"—Hilton Park adjoins the village of Scotshouse—" who was one of the congregation coming out of the Protestant church, pushed his way through the crowd and complained to Father McElroy that the band playing had caused annoyance to the congregation in the Protestant church."
  I may at once say I have seen Mr. Madden, who denies having pushed his way at all; the crowd was not dense, and he walked through gaps in it. On a previous occasion—Christmas, 1903—he had complained to Mr. McElroy of noise outside the Protestant church during service, and then received from him an extremely civil reply, so he had no reason to expect
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  anything else on this occasion. Having complained, Mr. Madden retired. I do not wish to say anything against Mr. McElroy.
  I pass on now to the principal speech delivered at the meeting. The speaker, Mr. Lynam, appears to have employed the incident I have related as an excuse for using specially violent language about Mr. Madden in the course of his torrent of invective against landlords generally. However, if he had confined himself to abuse, misrepresentation, and slander about landlords, those might hardly be grounds sufficiently tangible for the authorities to be justified in interfering, but in the middle of all this he expressed his opinion that—
  "All the compensation the landlords of this country are entitled to is three yards of a hempen rope."
  and I submit that in so saying he went very near indeed to counselling and advising wholesale murder, if, indeed, he was not actually doing so. Denunciation and abuse of landlords seem to have been the main purport of the earlier part of his speech, and I need not trouble your Lordships with further details on that point. But as he got further on he appears to have warmed to his work, and after telling his hearers that no concessions had ever been obtained from the British Government except by outrages or threats of outrages he proceeded to say that—
  "A few barrels of powder laid up against Clerkenwell Prison blew up the whole Protestant Church in Ireland!"
  and shortly afterwards he is represented as saying that—
  "He was not approving of crime, but most of them were aware that it was the shooting of some eleven or twelve landlords in certain parts that got them the Land Act of 1881. He did not, however, advise his hearers to take any such measures."
  Here we have this man, the accredited representative of the Irish Parliamentary Party, holding forth on the advantages which he said had ensued in the past from a policy of murder and outrage, no doubt qualifying his statements by saying that he did not advise his hearers to resort to such measures. But where is the practical value of such qualifications, or a dozen such, just after he had alluded to crimes as useful acts and likely to conduce to the realisation of their

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  desires? and that in a harangue which was obviously an appeal to the passions of an excitable populace whom we have every reason to believe to be in no way disinclined to commit lawless acts.
  It should be remembered that the object of Mr. Lynam's presence on this occasion was avowedly to reorganise the local branch of the United Irish League, which was done by enrolling members, collecting subscriptions, appointing officers, and arranging for a subsequent meeting to be held on Sunday last. Whether it has been held or what may have occurred, I have not yet heard. It is possible that His Majesty's Government may know more about it than I do. The gentle methods of the United Irish League are only too well known—they are much the same as those of the Land League of a few years ago, of which, in fact, it is really a resuscitation under a new name; and how soon may we expect some of these methods, i.e., outrage and murder, to be put in practice in the neighbourhoods—unless threats and intimidation have already produced implicit obedience to the orders and laws of the league? I would therefore submit that this meeting alone gives ample and sufficient grounds for proclaiming the United Irish League as an illegal association and for suppressing it. I would further ask if general orders could not be given to the police at all times to prevent and disperse any meeting or any noisy or disorderly concourse near a place of worship where Divine service is going on, which might in any way disturb the services then in progress?
  *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the noble Earl has stated the facts accurately. It is quite true that Mr. Lynam used very uncomplimentary language with regard to Captain Madden, but the noble Earl opposite who has been Viceroy of Ireland, together with the Prime Minister and myself, have been made the subject of denunciation at the hands of various Nationalists, in comparison with which the remarks of Mr. Lynam with reference to Captain Madden were as water unto wine. I certainly think that Mr. Lynam's speech was most unfortunate. The noble Earl asked whether it was the intention of the Irish Government to
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  prosecute Mr. Lynam, but they could not do so on legal grounds, the reason being that he protected himself by saying that the league denounced outrage of every description, and that their policy was one of constitutional agitation.
  *THE EARL OF DARTREY: During the greater part of his speech Mr. Lynam seems to have dwelt on the advantages of crime and outrage.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I have no desire to defend the speech, and I would be glad to see those who make such speeches brought to book and placed in the dock; but to do that you must have a good case, and I am afraid that this case is not strong enough. With regard to the inconvenience of the bands playing within such a short distance of the church, I am informed that at a meeting held in the vestry, at which Captain Madden was present, it was agreed that there was no intention of disturbing the service and therefore that no action should be taken. In view of that resolution, how could the Government interfere in the matter? The noble Earl has rightly called attention to Mr. Lynam's violent language. But he knows as well as I do that the policy of the professional agitator in Ireland is only one of blather, and that his only object is to retain his position as agitator. This is the first time I have heard of Mr. Lynam, but from reading his speech I imagine that he is only one of those professional agitators of whom Ireland has far too many. Certainly care will be taken that the power of the United Irish League does not increase; and the House may rely on it that the present Chief Secretary will insist on law and order being upheld. I may add that I personally would not remain a member of the Government if that policy was not carried out.
  LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, I would only observe that it seems to me that the blather of the Irish agitator has been very successful. All Loyalists in Ireland hope and expect that the new Chief Secretary will bring about a change—and a change for the better.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past Five o'clock, to to-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.