Lords Sitting of 17 July 1905

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills:—London Government Scheme (Hackney and Edmonton Unions); London Government Scheme (London and Middlesex); Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3).
And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—London County Council (Tramways).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No.2) Bill [H.L.] (Aberavon Tramways Order). The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Aberavon Tramways Order. Ordered, That the Order be not further proceeded with.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill. Reported, with Amendments.
South Barracas (Buenos Ayres) Gas and Coke Company Bill [H.L.]. Committee to meet to-morrow.
North Eastern Railway Bill; North Eastern Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Ellenborough be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Ravensworth; read, and agreed to.
Dover Harbour Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a(according to order).
Metropolitan Electric Tramways Bill; Dublin United Tramways Bill; London and North Western Railway Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway Bill. Read 3a (according to order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Bill. Read 3a (according to order), with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
Edgware and Hampstead Railway Bill. Read 3a (according to order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Great Northern, Piccadilly, and Brompton Railway (No. 1) Bill. Third Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Friday next.

PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 72, 82, and 85 be suspended for the remainder of the session.
Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Gosport and Fareham Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
Metropolitan and Great Central Railway Companies Bill [H.L.]; Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Water and Gas Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Andover Lighting and Power Bill; Great Western Railway (Additional Powers) Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
Edinburgh Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. (NO. 141.) A Bill

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to confirm a Provisional Order relating to Edinburgh Corporation. And
Stonehaven Harbour Order Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. (No. 142.) A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to Stonehaven Harbour. Were presented by the Marquess of Linlithgow; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, Section 7), deemed to have been read 2a; and reported from the Committee.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill. Brought from the Commons and read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners. (No. 143.)
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 16) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 17) Bill. Moved, That the order made on the 16th day of March last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 27th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2a; agreed to. Bills read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill. Read 3a (according to order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill. Bead 3a (according to order), and passed.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) BILL.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I desire to make an application to my noble friend the Chairman of Committees. I observe that to-morrow there is down for Second Reading the Bill promoted by the London County Council for bringing the tramways across the bridges and along the Embankment. This has always been a highly contentious question. There have been frequent discussions in both Houses of Parliament with regard to this particular Bill, and I would ask my noble friend whether he could see his
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way to postpone the Second Reading from to-morrow until, say, Thursday next. I understand there is a prospect of the rejection of the measure being proposed, and as it has only just come up to your Lordships' House and we have not really had an opportunity of considering it, I hope the noble Earl will agree to its postponement.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords. I hope my noble friend will not press his desire tha this Bill should be put off. This Bill has been before Parliament for a considerable time, and has been in y ur Lordships' House for five or six days; and, as noble Lords are aware, at this period of the session, when Bills of a contentious character come up from the other House, it is not always possible to secure the best material for Committees of your Lordships' House. I have arranged for the constitution of the Committee which is to consider this Bill, for I hope your Lordships will see your way to send it to a Select Committee, and unless that Committee gets to work at the earliest possible date, I fear it will be impossible for the noble Lords who have consented to serve upon it to take their places on the Committee. I therefore sincerely hope my noble friend will not press his desire that the Bill should be postponed. It is not in the public interest that the matter should be delayed any longer than is necessary.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC,
  INDIA (ARMY ADMINISTRATION).
  Further Papers regarding the administration of the Army in India (in continuation of [Cd. 2572]).
  PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND).
  Report to the Local Government Board for Scotland on the sanitary condition of the Island of Lewis.

  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3437. Turkey (Damascus).

  No. 3438. Italy (Ancona).

  No. 3439. Portugal (Lourengo Marques).

  BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND MARRIAGES.
  1. Sixty-seventh Annual Report of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England and Wales (1904).

  2. Supplement to Sixty-fifth Annual Report. Part I.

  3. Supplement to Sixty-fifth Annual Report. Part II.

  Presenter (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  WINTER ASSIZES ACT, 1876.
  Seven Orders in Council of the 11th July, 1905, relating to the ensuing Winter Assizes.
  Order in Council of 11th July, 1905, applying the Colonial Prisoners Removal Act, 1884, to the East Africa Protectorate.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION ACT, 1876, AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS ACTS.
  Order in Council of 11th July, 1905, varying the Order in Council of 25th March, 1877, relating to day industrial schools.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894.
  Order in Council of 11th July, 1905, constituting Burntisland a port of registry for British sea-fishing boats.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  INDIA (ARMY ADMINISTRATION).
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I rise to ask the noble Marquess the Under-Secretary of State for India a Question of which I have given him private notice. I am anxious to learn whether any further arrangements have been arrived at in respect to the recent proposals for the reorganisation of Army administration in India; and, if so, whether the noble Marquess will state the nature of those proposals and lay Papers on the Table as soon as possible.
  *THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Marquess of BATH): My Lords, the Viceroy has communicated to the Secretary of State
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  by telegraph certain points in connection with the despatch of May 31st on Army administration, on which the Government of India think it necessary to make representations, in order, as they submit, to render the working of the new scheme practicable. The Secretary of State has explained in return that these recommendations do not contravene the provisions of the despatch and he has expressed the satisfaction of His Majesty's Government that Lord Kitchener is now in accord with the Viceroy and his Council as to the course to be adopted with regard to them. The points on which the Viceroy requested assurances were as follows. First, that the member of Council in charge of the Military Supply Department should always be a soldier. His Majesty's Government are prepared to appoint a solider to the impending vacancy, but they cannot fetter the discretion of the Crown as to future vacancies. Secondly, that the Military Supply Member should be available for official consultations by the Viceroy on all military questions without distinction. The reply of His Majesty's Government is that there is no desire to fetter the constitutional right of the Viceroy to consult any member of his Council officially or unofficially on any subject, but that the existing system, by which all the Commander-in-Chief's proposals pass to the Viceroy through the channel of the Military Member having been done away with, it follows that no special claim can exist for the Military Supply Member to be consulted or note on the proposals of the Commander-in-Chief or vice versâ. Thirdly, he asked that the Secretary to the Government of India in the Army Department (to be in future presided over by the Commander-in-Chief) should be given the local rank of major-general. To this there is no objection. Fourthly, that important changes in military organisation, especially in the native Army, should be discussed by a Mobilisation Committee, of which the Commander-in-Chief and Millitary Supply Member should be essential members, and that a schedule of cases should be drawn up which the Secretary in the Army Department should submit to the Viceroy before orders are passed on them. These provisions are entirely

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  in accord with the despatch; and His Majesty's Government are glad to find that on this, as on the preceding points, they can meet the views of the Government of India without affecting the principle of the new system which it has been deemed necessary to establish. The telegrams to which I have alluded have, I believe, already been laid on the Table, and will very shortly, I trust, be in the possession of your Lordships.

  THE ADMIRALTY AND STEAMSHIP SUBSIDIES.
  *LORD BRASSEYrose, "To call attention to the Report of the Select Committee on Steamship Subsidies and to the Reserves of the Navy in ships and in men." The noble Lord said: My Lords, all will regret the absence of Lord Cawdor when Admiralty matters are under discussion. The wish is universal for his early restoration to perfect health. In introducing the subject to which I desire to call attention, it is not necessary to insist on its importance. "Frigates, more frigates!" was the cry of Lord Nelson. In giving evidence before the Committee on Subsidies, Lord Charles Beresford said that success or defeat in the initial stages of a war might turn on speedy information and the maintenance of long lines of communication. Where shall we obtain at the least cost the most efficient vessels? Lord Charles Beresford told the Committee that no ships could do the duty of scouts better than the ocean greyhounds of the mercantile marine, built for speed in any weather.
  Can the mercantile marine, unaided by the State, supply the ships we require? In the ocean carrying trade British shipowners more than hold their own. Our share is steadily increasing in the entrances and clearances at British and foreign ports, and notably in the traffic through the Suez Canal. In first-class ships—the pride and glory of a maritime nation—we are falling behind. Taking vessels of 4,000 tons and upwards, our British tonnage has increased in five years from 211,000 tons to 975,000 tons, while German tonnage has gone up from 480,000 tons to 1,230,000 tons. Of the nine ships built since 1895 exceeding
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  10,000 tons displacement and twenty knots speed, one only, the "Oceanic," of the White Star Line, is under the British flag. We are third on the list of speedy vessels, and we should be first.
  The explanation is not far to seek. The trade of the North Atlantic is the only trade in which the fast vessels required for the Navy can be run without loss; and foreign shipowners have advantages not shared by their British competitors. The ocean services of Germany have an advantage in the geographical position of Bremen and Hamburg, in communication by railway, by canals, and canalised rivers, with all the industrial centres. In the port of Hamburg the largest barges and the largest ocean steamships lie side by side. German ocean shipping is concentrated in two powerful combines, under able management, aided and assisted in every way by the Government. They are practically a department of the State. The Hamburg-American Company is continually growing by the absorption of smaller companies. The process is extending to services under the Austrian, Danish, and Italian flags, as well as under that of Germany. The Atlantic services under the flag of the United States, though not directly aided by the Government, have the powerful support of the great railway companies. The French ocean steamships are liberally subsidised.
  When the Atlantic combine was formed His Majesty's Government took steps to secure that a service should be maintained under the British flag and under British management. They desired that the ships should be second to none. These considerations led to the agreement with the Cunard Company. The policy of the Government has commanded general approval. From a naval point of view we have not gone far enough as regards numbers; we have been, perhaps too exacting as to speed. It is not necessary to dwell on the objections to subsidies paid for the encouragement of trade. The failure of that enervating system is conspicuous wherever it has been tried. It has been well that our shipowners have had to depend on their own unaided efforts and the skilful management of their

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  business. When we come to deal with the requirements of the public service other considerations must be brought into view. Under existing conditions, without subsidies we shall not obtain from the British mercantile marine the vessels of exceptional speed required for the Navy.
  If subsidies are given, in what service shall the ships be employed? A fast direct mail service has long been desired in Canada. The Government has made offers. The commercial community would wish that they should be more liberal. Senator Sir George Drummond appeared in their name before the Committee on Subsidies. He believed that an annual subsidy of £400,000 would be required to open a line. In a short time it would become self-supporting. He hoped for a contribution from the mother country in aid of an enterprise which would open up Canada and greatly promote the Imperial work of closer union. In the same year in which the Committee on Subsidies reported, a congress of chambers of commerce met at Montreal. It was attended by hundreds of delegates from all parts of the Empire. After full debate the following resolution was unanimously passed—
  "This Congress considers it of the utmost importance, in thy interests of the Empire, that the United Kingdom and her Colonies should adopt a policy under which lines of steamships will be secured and retained, (1) for fast mail services on the several routes; (2) for the development of trade between the mother country and her possessions, and between the Colonies themselves."
  Coming from a representative body that resolution should have weight with your Lordships. At a time when, without distinction of Party, we are seeking by every practical means to strengthen Imperial unity, a fast service to Canada should merit consideration.
  Lord Charles Beresford proposed an alternative to the payment of subsidies. He suggested that the Government might pay the expense of building ships, and might hand them over to one of the great companies to be worked for profit. The ships might yield a fair return on their cost. A share of the profits might
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  be paid to the Government. Being constantly at sea, the ships would at all times be absolutely fit for service. If such a plan were considered feasible, an opportunity now offers which may never recur. The Admiralty have at their disposal numerous cruisers, protected but not armoured, as to the retention of which in the Navy list the Board has been in I doubt. A Return obtained by Mr. Robertson included nine ships of 11,000 tons, with speeds exceeding twenty knots. Is it impracticable to employ some of these ships in opening a mail service to Canada? The cost of alterations would be inconsiderable in comparison with the cost of building a fleet of fast ships. The Admiralty would be relieved of the cost of upkeep, and the ships would be always ready.
  The Australian mail services are maintained by joint contributions from the Imperial and local Governments. In the interest of Imperial unity it is desirable, that the mails should be accelerated. In future contracts it should be insisted that some at least of the ships of the contracting companies should fulfil Admiralty requirements as to speed and other essentials. The result would be to secure a well distributed and adequate number of mercantile auxiliaries and at the least cost. Fast steamships can run in conjunction with large fleets of vessels of lower speed, such as those of the Hamburg-American, North German Lloyd, and P. and O. companies, with commercial advantage to the fleets as a whole, though, individually, the fast vessels might not pay.
  The policy of subsidies has not been in all respects satisfactory in the past. Many vessels to which subsidies have been paid, under agreements of recent date, have not been equal in speed to the ships formerly obtained. Nor have the engagements for preventing transfers to foreign flags been sufficiently strict. The Committee over which Lord Camper-down presided recommended that transfers should be prevented by registering the Admiralty as part owners. The Return moved for by Lord Spencer showed that expenditure on subsidies had been relatively inconsiderable. Though spread over many years it had

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  been less than the cost of a single armoured cruiser, and far less than the cost of the eight scouts now completing. Objections have been urged to subsidies on the ground that the Navy should not depend on auxiliaries. On this it may be remarked that no increase can be proposed in the Shipbuilding Votes. In amount, and in the rate of increase, they far exceed those of France and Germany. Increased expenditure on any type must be met by reductions. In battleships completed we are in a stronger position than we have ever held before. In ships building we are below the two-Power standard. We seem to be building too many cruisers in proportion to battleships. Scouts are cruisers without protection. We shall not strengthen the Navy by cutting down battleships and laying down scouts.
  It may be urged as a further objection to subsidies that they are not necessary to secure ships required in an emergency. I was a member of the Board of Admiralty which in 1885 stood face to face with a possible outbreak of war within a few days with a first-class European Power. A vote of £10,000,000 for warlike preparations had been suddenly called for by Mr. Gladstone, and granted by the House of Commons without debate. We were not prepared. It had not been the policy of Parliament or of any administration to keep the Navy fully prepared for war. It was imperative to reinforce the Navy in cruisers, and to prevent our fast merchant steamers from passing under foreign flags. A Government in difficulties cannot negotiate on favourable terms. Our experiences were not lost upon our successors. In 1887, when contracts for the conveyance of the mails to New York were being renewed, they addressed a letter to the Treasury, an extract from which I will read—
  "My Lords would desire to state that the experience derived from the events of 1885 has led them to believe that true economy and real efficiency would be best promoted by securing the use to the Admiralty in time of peace of the fastest and moat serviceable mercantile vessels. It will be remembered that in 1885 a sum approximating to £600,000 was expended in retaining the services of several fast merchant steamers, so as to prevent their being available for the service of any Power inimical to the
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  interests of the United Kingdom. Had arrangements existed similar to those now contemplated, their Lordships believe that a very considerable portion of this expenditure would I have been averted, and a degree of confidence felt by the nation on which it is very difficult to place a money value."
  Turning from reserves of ships to the I reserve forces for manning the Navy, new and important branches of the Reserve have been recently enrolled in the Colonies and at home. It is satisfactory to learn from the First Lord's statement that these reserves have made a good start. It would be of interest to Parliament and the country to have the latest information as to recruiting, the provision of drill-sheds, the numbers embarked in His Majesty's ships and their discipline and efficiency. Nor should the training of the officers of the Naval Reserve be neglected. Nothing has been done for the professional training of the cadets and the midshipmen entered in large numbers in the Reserve. The mail services to our Colonies should be organised as a national service, and the vessels utilised as training ships for officers of the Reserve, and for the training of those British seamen and firemen who are so much needed to man our mercantile marine. Subsidised mail steamers should be utilised for the training of junior engineers and newly-entered stokers of the Navy.
  In conclusion, the charge for subsidies, limited to those special services for which they seem to be required, would be inconsiderable. We do not want many ships to do scouting for the Fleet. Lord Charles Beresford asked for eight. Shall we say twelve ships? Take the annual subsidy at £500,000. Assume a contribution from Canada of £200,000 a year. Let us hope for some aid from the Australasian dependencies. Let us assume a contribution from the Post Office. The balance chargeable on Navy Votes would be a small payment for the reinforcement of the Fleet in a class of ships indispensable for efficiency in time of war, and which in peace would be the training squadron for our Reserves. As mail steamers they would be a link with the Colonies. In naval administration nothing can be done well which is done hastily. I ask the Government to give consideration to the subject which I have, I fear.

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  imperfectly dealt with, and to act when opportunities offer.
  THE SECRETARY FOE SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LINLITHGOW): My Lords, I wish in the first place to acknowledge on behalf of the First Lord of the Admiralty the kind words spoken by the noble Lord with reference to his enforced absence from this House. I am sure your Lordships will understand that no one regrets more than the noble Earl himself his inability to reply in person to the remarks of the noble Lord opposite, whose long connection and close acquaintance with the question of naval reserve in all its branches is well known to your Lordships, and whose views on these subjects are always entitled to the greatest respect both from the Admiralty and from your Lordships' House.
  The noble Lord has in his speech dealt with two subjects—the question of subsidies to merchant cruisers and the state of the Reserve personnel for the Fleet. Now with regard to subsidies, from the point of view of the Admiralty the question of the advantages to be gained by various Colonies or by the mercantile marine from the subsidising from public funds of fast merchant ships, however desirable in themselves, is one which must be kept quite distinct from that of securing the assistance for the Fleet in time of war of fast merchant ships to be used as scouts or armed cruisers. It is for the latter urpose only that money from naval funds can be expended. Before embarking on any proposal to spend money in subsidising merchant ships, the Admiralty have carefully to consider whether such a plan is in the end more economical and efficient than that of building warships to do the work. It must be remembered that when the policy of subsidising merchant steamers to be used as auxiliaries to the Fleet in war was inaugurated, the best merchant ships of the day excelled in sea speed the fastest warships. Since then the speed of merchant ships has increased, but the increase is but slight when compared with the corresponding increase in the speed of warships. Speed is the essential quality, whether these ships are used as scouts or as armed cruisers, and the cost of building
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  a merchant vessel of such speed as to be of much service for these purposes is becoming almost prohibitive.
  The noble Lord alluded to the small amount of money paid in subsidies for merchant cruisers relatively to the cost of building a scout. But in this connection I would point out that the subvention paid for one of these merchant vessels is in the nature of a retaining fee, and the cost of hiring them in time of war would be very large. For instance, let me take the first ship on the Admiralty list of such ships at the beginning of 1905—the "Oceanic." Her annual subvention is £10,000 a year. The cost of her armament excluding that of fitting it on board, would be about £26,000; and her surrender value, which would be claimed if she were lost while in the Government service, is £705,617; so that if the "Oceanic" were lost in war she would have cost the country a sum approaching a million of money. On the other hand, the estimated cost of one of the new scouts, some of which have been recently put in commission, is £294,204 when complete and ready for commission. Without controverting in any way the noble Lord's view of the useful part which ships of the merchant service could play in war, I have said enough to show that the financial side of the question is one which the Admiralty have very steadily to keep in view.
  Turning to the second part of the noble Lord's speech, I am able to say that the composition and training of the Naval Reserve forces is receiving the attention of the Admiralty at the present time. The work of the personnel of the Navy is constantly undergoing change and improvement, and the problem of the means of keeping the men who do not belong to the active service of the Navy in peace time fully acquainted with the duties which will be demanded of them in war is one which they must always have before their minds. It is difficult to impart to men of the Naval Reserve adequate training in drill batteries on shore, and the expense of keeping the ordnance in these batteries, always up to date is very great. Far more can be learnt by a course of service

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  on board sea-going warships of the Fleet, where the actual conditions of service afloat are present.
  With regard to the recruiting of Royal Naval Reserve men, the full number estimated for was reached long before the end of the last financial year, the figures of the entries in the various branches being—1,595 seamen, 1,062 firemen (ordinary), 788 firemen (special) and 488 engine-room artificers. Good reports as to the efficiency of the men engaged in the Colonial Reserves continue to be received from Australia and Newfoundland. At Malta the Reserve has been formed so recently (about twelve months ago) that sufficient data as to its usefulness are not yet forthcoming. There is a special difficulty, i.e., the slight knowledge of the English language possessed by a number of the men enlisted.
  The work of the new Naval Volunteer Reserve is steadily progressing. Two new divisions for the Mersey and Sussex were formed during 1904, and another has recently been created on the Tyne. Besides drill-sheds, some of the divisions have been provided with naval vessels. In addition to the "Buzzard," which was taken over by the London Division last year and moored in the Thames, the "Rose" cutter has been lent to the Clyde Division, and the "Melita" is being similarly prepared for the Mersey Division. As the noble Lord is no doubt aware, a branch of the Reserve from which the Admiralty have great expectations is the Royal Fleet Reserve, composed entirely of men who have served as active service ratings in the Fleet. The numbers of this Reserve, apart from the "A" or pensioner class, has now reached over 7,000—namely, 4,982 seamen and stokers and 2,152 marines—and the new system of engaging special or non-continuous service seamen on the condition that they will enter the Fleet Reserve on discharge should add materially to its strength later on.

  ARMY (YEOMANRY).
  LORD WENLOCKrose "To ask the Under-Secretary of State for War what
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  were the intentions of His Majesty's Government as to the mobilization and training of the Imperial Yeomanry." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have placed this notice on the Paper for the purpose of eliciting such information as my noble friend can give as to the intentions of the Government with regard to organising the Yeomanry and putting it on a proper and sound footing in case it should be called up for any sudden military purpose; and I think I am encouraged in calling attention to this particular subject by the fact that since my Question was put down the Secretary of State for War in another place, when referring to the Imperial Yeomanry, said—
  "I believe there is no force in His Majesty's Service from which we obtain better value for money expended than the Imperial Yeomanry."
  It is thirty-five years since I first joined the Yeomanry, and I am sure there are many noble Lords in this House who also remember the old days, when a great deal of trouble was taken to place the Yeomanry on a proper footing and to train it on sound principles. They will remember how in those earlier days we were subjected to a certain amount of derision and were neglected, and I am sure they will be glad now to hear, on the authority of the Secretary of State for War, that this force is at the present time most satisfactory, and that there is no force from which His Majesty's Government obtain better value for money expended.
  I think it is not unreasonable that those of us who take an active part in this work should ask His Majesty's Government how far they are prepared to place the force on a still more satisfactory footing. I am, of course, alluding to what might happen in the event of the force being mobilised and called upon to undertake serious work in an emergency. All of us who are in the position of commanding officers of Yeomanry regiments must feel that at present we are rather acting as independent units and that we have no cohesion at all. There is nobody to place us in brigades or divisions, nor do we know exactly where to turn on mobilisation. I feel that this is hardly a satisfactory position, and hope His

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  Majesty's Government will embrace the present opportunity, when we are at peace, and there is leisure, of bringing up some scheme that will in this respect place the Yeomanry in a much better position than they occupy at the present moment. The Yeomanry should know what their position will be. Their stores should be in perfect order, and their transport and other matters so arranged that they could fall into line without delay.
  Another point upon which desire information is as to the intention of the government with regard to horsing regiments if they should be suddenly called upon for action. I understand that this duty is to be entrusted to the Remount Department. I would ask my noble friend the Under-Secretary whether he thinks the Remount Department can possibly horse all the Yeomanry in under seven days, even if they can do it so quickly. I believe I could re-horse the whole of my regiment in a couple of days, and if this matter were left in the hands of commanding officers I am sure it would be very much more satisfactorily arranged, while the Remount Department could devote their attention to making arrangements for filling up any casualties that might occur at future stages of the operations. Again, it would be a very valuable thing if senior officers in this force had an opportunity of attending classes and lectures for instruction in the higher branches of their work. I have myself attended the only school at the disposal of the Yeomanry at Aldershot, but I found, as a senior officer, that the information imparted was hardly of a nature to be satisfactory to myself. I should be glad if a school of the kind I have mentioned could be instituted which senior officers could attend, and also if facilities could be given to those officers to attend manœuvres.
  We have reached a certain stage in regard to the Yeomanry movement, and I do not think we ought to stand still. I hope I shall obtain from the noble Earl an assurance that the Government are looking into this matter, and will be able to do more for the force than they have done up to the present. At the same time I must say the Yeomanry are ex-
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  tremely grateful to the Government for what they have done in the past, and I am glad to see that the Government, on their side, recognise that for what they have done for the Yeomanry they have had ample return. I should also like to ask the noble Earl whether it is not possible for us to have our own drill-book. Legislation by reference is very unsatisfactory, but drill by reference is more unsatisfactory. We are given a small drill-book, and are told that we shall find other information in the cavalry drill-book. I certainly think that a force which numbers some 25,000 officers and men might be allowed to have their own drill-book entirely to themselves. This is rather a small matter, but it is one which I should like, while we are on the subject, to bring to the notice of my noble friend. I beg to move for Papers.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for Papers relating to the mobilisation and training of the Imperial Yeomanry."—(Lord Wenlock.)
  *LORD HARRIS: My Lords, if I might add a few remarks to what my noble friend has said, they would be in the direction of asking for something definite as to orders on mobilisation. I have been living for some years under certain orders as regards where my regiment is to mobilise in the event of England being threatened, and, of course, I have made all my dispositions accordingly. But apparently within the last year or so the system of command in the part of the country where my regiment is quartered and recruited has entirely changed, and all the correspondence which I have had over a period of, I should think, at least five years, has, I suppose, been transferred to some other officer, because the office with which I have been corresponding tell me now that they have nothing whatever to do with the regiment. I understand that the general officer who has been commanding at Dover has now nothing whatever to do with the Yeomanry. All my correspondence for five years or more has been with that officer, and I suppose that by some arrangement made at the War Office all that correspondence will be handed

  819
  over to the officer who is entrusted now with Yeomanry matters.
  When a change of officers takes place it frequently happens that a change of views takes place. I have been under orders all these years that on the word "mobilise" being circulated I was to be mobilised at a certain place. Last year I received an order that one squadron was to mobilise at some other place, so I naturally asked where the other three squadrons were to mobilise, and I was told they were not to mobilise at all. That is a remarkable change in orders, and it is curious that the one squadron specially selected was to mobilise inside a fortress. Naturally a horse regiment cannot do very much inside a fortress, However, I think I am justified in asking who is going to supply the horses, because hitherto no arrangements whatever have been made as regards the horses for Yeomanry regiments on mobilisation, The men are bound to bring their horses to the annual training, for which they are paid £5, but there is nothing in the terms of their enlistment which compels them to bring horses if the regiment is mobilised; and I ask, who is going to undertake to find the horses—whether the men had better bring their own and the country compensate them afterwards, or whether the Government propose to find them. I was told that the Government were going to find them. I think it is a legitimate question to ask whether any arrangements have been made to supply Yeomen with horses when they get the word to mobilise. If we may gather anything definite from the speech made in another place by the Prime Minister, it is that if this country is to be attacked in earnest the attack is going to be very sudden, and, therefore, that Auxiliary regiments that have to mobilise will have I to do so very suddenly. Obviously the horses will be wanted in a hurry. Are we to depend on centralised organisation for sending horses down to parts of the country most immediately threatened, or is there any existing arrangement by which the local authorities might—I hardly like to use the word commandeer— engage horses, or be able to obtain them, on an occasion of that kind?
  I hope the noble Lord will also look into the question of mobilisation stores.
  820
  Some years ago, during the war, the War Office issued a very remarkable order— that Yeomanry commanding officers were to make arrangements with local tradesmen for the supply of a very large number of articles. I should think quite three pages of small print were occupied in detailing these articles, which were to be kept in stock by the local tradesmen for an indefinite time without any remuneration whatever, except that at the end of the time, whatever that might be —it might be fifty years—the tradesmen were to have, I think, 5 per cent, increase on the Government price. There was not, therefore, very much profit to the local tradesmen in it, and your Lordships will not be surprised to hear that on making inquiries of every local tradesman of sufficient capacity to supply a large number of articles of this kind, I found no one in the least inclined to embark in the venture, and for three years I have been arguing with the local military authorities and endeavouring to prove to them that this was not a commercial transaction which appealed to local tradesmen.
  My efforts had been without avail until the other day, when the Government amended their previous order and allowed that the articles need not be of Army pattern, but I was still to make arrangements with the local tradesmen to keep them in stock. What I eventually succeeded in doing was this. I informed the military authorities that there were certain tradesmen who kept certain articles of approximately similar character in stock, and I hoped they would be forthcoming when wanted, but I could not give any guarantee that some other regiment would not get in before me and take all the things I was depending on. That is not a practical scheme. I think that the large majority of these articles would be forthcoming upon the initiative of the Yeoman himself as soon as the word to mobilise went round, and that the Yeomanry regiment would be found where it was wanted without these voluminous prearrangements. But, at the same time, I suggest it is not a practical way of dealing with the matter to give orders which in themselves are absolutely impossible of being carried out.

  821
  There are two other subjects besides mobilisation stores and horses which require attention — namely, musketry schools for officers and non-commissioned officers, and a signalling school. Yeomanry officers may be able to give one particular month in the year at Hythe, but it is almost certain that on that month the school is already full. There are parts of the musketry course which are not absolutely essential for Yeomanry officers, and it might be possible to work out a shortened course and allow it to take place elsewhere than at Hythe. In that way I am sure we should be able to supply a very much larger number of officers capable of giving good instructions to their men in musketry. Signal ling is a most important subject, and one which many officers and men are very willing to take up. At present in my regiment there is a great deal of signalling done, because there are prizes given and the men are ready to take it up. But it is absolutely impossible for a regiment to earn anything for the corps unless an officer has attended a signalling class and obtained a certificate. It is necessary for him to go to a class for two months. It is really impossible for a great majority of Yeomanry officers to find two consecutive months to give to this voluntary military work, and I cannot help thinking that it would be possible for a scheme to be worked out involving some less time than the rather long period of two months. If an officer could get a certificate for signalling more easily than he can at present, I am quite sure that the War Office would find that signalling in the Yeomanry, which apparently is neglected, though, as I have said, many officers and men have taken it up, would be even more extensively learnt.
  I do not want to be thought for one moment as saying that the Yeomanry have any reason to grumble at the attitude of the Government towards that force. In my opinion the Yeomanry have every reason to be most grateful to the Government for the assistance which they have received. That assistance has instilled absolutely new life into the whole force, and has enabled everything to be done in a much more
  822
  business - like way; and we are doing what I believe to be more useful than anything else — we are turning out annually into the country a large number of young men who have been taught how to ride and shoot. I am certain that the next time any serious war threatens this country a much larger number of healthy young men will volunteer for service at home or abroad than hitherto; and that result will have been achieved by the very kindly and liberal treatment which this Government have afforded to the Yeomanry forces.
  *THE UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOE WAR (The Earl of DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I am very glad to see that officers in your Lordships' House, representing the Imperial Yeomanry, so thoroughly reciprocate the efforts we have been able to make in the direction of helping that force. I can assure your Lordships that nothing gives livelier satisfaction to my colleagues on the Army Council than to note the improvement that has been made in the force, and the enthusiasm of its officers to keep on improving it. Your Lordships will have noticed that there is a complete absence of carping criticism on the part of the speakers this afternoon, and I can assure them, in the few remarks which it will be necessary for me to make, that we intend to try and do our utmost to help them in the direction that I know they wish to go.
  Your Lordships will remember the debates we had on this subject last year. I am glad to say that we have already been able to meet Yeomanry officers on many of the points then, raised. A debate was initiated last year by the noble Lord opposite, Lord Lovat, in which he laid great stress on the need in the Yeomanry of another weapon. We recognised the justice of the views put forward on that occasion and we did, during the winter, supply the Yeomanry with a second weapon. We were also glad to meet a suggestion made by the noble Marquess, Lord Winchester, that we should allow men to re-engage in future from year to year. We have also, partly in deference to criticisms that were made last year,

  823
  initiated a new scheme of inspection, and, though it has not been referred to this evening, I may perhaps be allowed to say that we have found the new system of inspection, tried this year, work most satisfactorily; the inspections have been most useful and practical as regards the corps concerned, and we certainly intend to continue the system.
  As to the question just raised by Lord Harris — that of signalling — we recognised last year that it was a grievance that no grant could be earned by any corp unless it had eight men efficient, and we were able to lighten the terms for earning this grant. We have made arrangements by which four efficient men in a corps can earn a grant—a certain amount, but not the whole £12 which the eight men could earn. But when we try to go the whole extent advocated by the noble Lord, and permit of a shorter course of instruction for officers to enable them to qualify for this grant we run our head, if I may use the phrase, against a brick wall of considerable thickness. The reason is this. It is the opinion of those who are concerned in these matters at the War Office that a signaller is no use to the Army unless he is absolutely efficient. Signalling is, in itself, most important, and it is also most important that an officer's knowledge of signalling should be efficient. The evil consequences that might follow from mistakes in signalling are so serious that we object most strongly to any suggestion of lowering the standard, I am sorry not to be able to meet the wishes of the noble Lord on this point, but I am afraid we shall never be able to make the course of signalling easier than it is at the present time.
  I now come to a Question asked by Lord Wenlock with regard to a class for senior officers. The first difficulty we have had to deal with in this matter has been that of accommodation at our cavalry school, but I hope that difficulty will soon be removed. It has not been found practicable hitherto to have more than four courses a year for Yeomanry officers, and it has not, therefore, been possible to squeeze in a course for senior officers.
  824
  I daresay your Lordships are aware that it is our intention to considerably increase the size of the cavalry school, and it may then be found practicable— I cannot give any pledge, because I have not gone into the question with the proper authorities—to have a course for senior officers. But information rather tends in the direction of showing that if we did have a course for senior officers there would not be many senior officers who would attend it. In England, at any rate, a great many of the senior officers are ex-cavalry officers, and I doubt very much whether an officer who has been some time in the cavalry could get very much instruction out of a course for senior officers held at the cavalry school. I will, however, undertake that the point shall not be lost sight of when the accommodation is increased. As regards manœuvres, we are at present considering whether, if we have manœuvres next year, we can attach senior Yeomanry officers to those manœuvres for instruction, and in that way meet one of the points raised by the noble Lord opposite.
  LORD WENLOCK: Does the noble Earl say definitely that we are to be attached to manœuvres?
  *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: No, I say the matter is being considered. It is all a question of pounds, shillings, and pence, but I have every hope that we shall be able to do it. I now come to another point raised by Lord Harris, as to the possibility of our having local courses for musketry instruction. We are very much opposed at present to allowing these courses. Assuming that they were to be considered in the same way as courses at Hythe, and were to earn the Hythe certificate, the effect of such courses would be to depreciate the value of the Hythe certificate itself. I know that that Answer will be very unsatisfactory to my noble friend Lord Lovat, but I think his corps supply a very special case. I believe that a local course held in Scotland for the purpose of training the two Scottish regiments might possibly be attended with success; for this reason, that we should be working at once upon material of a special character. We should be

  825
  training men already skilled in the use of the rifle and the telescope, and I believe that a short course might be arranged with advantage in my noble friend's special case, but I cannot admit that a course held away from Hythe for the Yeomanry in general, or any regiment of Yeomanry, could possibly compare in value with a course at Hythe.
  I know it may be objected that Hythe is a long way from certain parts of the United Kingdom, and that it is inconvenient for officers from a distance to attend. I should think there was greater force in that objection if experience showed that officers residing near Hythe were better attendants at the course than officers living at a distance, but that is not the case. I have received a letter from the Commandant of the Hythe School of Musketry, who says that officers living at a distance find that they are quite as able to attend the classes as officers living close by. I am afraid that I can hold out no hope that we shall be able to organise classes for musketry instruction for officers in different parts of the country, at any rate at the present moment.
  I now come to the question of organisation, touched on by Lord Wenlock and by Lord Harris. I stated about a fortnight ago that resulting OH the recent decision of the Defence Committee a new scheme of organisation was being worked out for the United Kingdom. Of course, the Imperial Yeomanry have a full appearance in that scheme, but we have not yet finally decided upon it; and, therefore, I must ask noble Lords not to press me to give any details of it at present. Indeed, I should think that it would be very improper that minute details should ever be published, owing to the obvious un-wisdom of making known your mobilisation arrangements before you put them in force. They will, of course, have to be confidentially communicated to commanders of regiments and of troops, but the details of any scheme of mobilisation for home defence would obviously be of the greatest possible interest to foreign Powers, and it would not be wise, therefore, for us to publish them. I can assure
  826
  the noble Lord that real and substantial progress has been made in the direction which he rightly considers so important.
  As regards the supply of horses, the present arrangement is that the Remount Department shall horse Yeomanry regiments on mobilisation. WV believe that in time of war, when the Remount Department would have its hands, so to speak, on almost every horse in the kingdom, and would have already made very considerable demands on the horse supply, they would be able with more certainty to provide the horses requisite for the Imperial Yeomanry regiments than would be the case if this were left to the colonels of regiments. On mobilisation the Remount Department would at once make very great demands upon the country, and there would be nothing to protect a colonel of a regiment losing all or a very large part of the horses which he had been counting on by their being bought by the Remount Department without his knowing anything about it. We think it is safer to have one buyer only in the field at a time of great stress, and when great demands are suddenly made on the market. That is the reason why it is thought better that the Remount Department should be entrusted with the horsing of the Imperial Yeomanry when war breaks out.
  As to making contracts for mobilisation stores, I am sorry to hear of Lord Harris's want of success in this matter. I think he a little under-estimated the amount that the contractor is to get. I think the price is to be 16 per cent, over cost price; but that is a small detail after all. I note that the noble Lord is not very much impressed with the necessity of making these arrangements at all, and I am sure he would agree with me that most of the articles required are articles in common use, which it is practically certain could be bought at very short notice if required. However, I believe that some regiments have been lately more fortunate than Lord Harris.
  *LORD HARRIS: I have heard of one that was able to make the contract for one year.
  THE EARLOF DONOUGHMORE: I have not got the particulars with me, but I believe a certain number of regiments have been able to make verbal contracts, and one or two have been more fortunate and have made written ones; but I admit there has not been that great success under this particular head that I should like to have seen. With regard to the final matter referred to by Lord Wenlock, I believe there was a new Yeomanry training book issued, but I understand from the noble Lord that there is too much instruction by reference in it, and that he would like a more complete manual. This, of course, is only a matter of printing, and I shall be very glad to inquire if such a book as the noble Lord asks for could be conveniently issued. I am glad to note the turn the debate has taken, and I can assure your Lordships that we hope we shall be able during the forthcoming winter to meet some of the points that have been raised by noble Lords representing the Imperial Yeomanry in the same way as we were able to meet points raised last session.
  LORD LOVAT: My Lords, if we could have heard the Answer of the noble Earl before the criticisms were made, I do not think the remarks of noble Lords this evening would have been of quite so friendly a spirit. The very same points were brought up by myself last session, and practically, with two exceptions, we are in exactly the same position as we were then. We are given the same old reason, that there is a mobilisation scheme being prepared. I have been in His Majesty's service for sixteen years, and I can remember no year when it was not stated that there was going to be a mobilisation scheme in force the following year, but we have never yet had one published—I do not mean published in the ordinary sense, but commanding officers should know its general details as regards themselves. The question of training was brought up last year, and once more we are met with a statement that it will be considered.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: The question of training has not been raised this afternoon at all.
  LORD LOVAT: The question of short courses of musketry instruction, a school for senior officers, and other matters in connection with training have been referred to. The question of the training of junior officers in musketry was raised last year, and the views then expressed were supported by Lord Roberts. The number of officers who have been to Hythe to attend the Yeomanry course has not very considerably increased from last year, and in consequence the training of the Yeomanry in musketry is not by any means what could be desired. The noble Earl has referred to mine as a special case. I fail to see how in any way I constitute a special case for a short course in musketry. As a matter of fact, the Commander-in-Chief for Scotland has been particularly keen on this question. He paid a visit to London to try to get this question of short courses considered, seeing the necessity for having them, and he had a class ready to take up of fifty-seven officers, had he been authorised by the War Office. That was one class alone. If this were done generally, the musketry of the Yeomanry, which is not in a satisfactory condition, might be raised to a very much higher standard.
  With regard to senior officers, that question was brought up last year, and we were told that if we waited something might be done. We are again given no definite promise that we are to have a class for senior Yeomanry officers. Is it not absurd that Yeomanry officers should have to go through exactly the same course of training as majors as they go through as subalterns? I wonder what would happen if the Education Department were run by the War Office, and they abandoned standards and put everyone through the junior forms. I do not think educationalists would stand that method of training very long. If that method would be bad in regard to ordinary instruction, why should it be adopted for military instruction? The noble Earl says that ex-cavalry officers would not attend the class. I happen to have been a cavalry officer and I certainly would like to go to a senior class. As far as I remember, three of the Yeomanry regiments in the North of Scotland are commanded by officers who were in the cavalry, and

  829
  they all wish to go to a senior class. An officer trained as a captain or a subaltern in a cavalry regiment has not to write brigade orders and regimental orders in the same way that he does when he commands a regiment. The ex-cavalry officer does not necessarily know the whole duties of a Yeomanry commanding officer. The seniors, as we note from the report, are not so well reported on as some of the junior officers, and it is not reasonable that they should be. The seniors have so much more to learn. On mobilisation they will have to compete against the best cavalry officers of whatever force might land on our shores, and, therefore, it is essential that they should be fully up to their work. Surely we are entitled to ask for at least one class a year in which these officers can be trained. I can imagine no more reasonable request than that your senior officers should be given an opportunity to make themselves efficient for their position.
  As to the general question of mobilisation, we had that subject brought up last year, and we were then told that in the future some mobilisation scheme was to be put before us. We do not wish, naturally, to have the details published, but we do wish to know certain general principles. We would like to know if we are to be brigaded, and, if we are, who is to staff those brigades. At a Yeomanry meeting the other day the opinion was expressed that not one single regiment could spare senior officers to go on the staff. Of Staff College officers there are only two cavalry men in England at the present time who are unemployed. Where are the staff to come from to look after the brigades of Imperial Yeomanry? We should like to have a definite statement on the subject. We asked for it last year. Time goes on, and we are still in the same position. Surely it would be an advantage if we were told where our mobilisation stations were, and where we should have to go. It is not necessary to elaborate that. If Yeomanry colonels knew exactly what portion of the country they were going to, they could study it, make their arrangements about transport and horses, and have maps ready which would enable them to be a fighting force at once.
  830
  Then, on the question of horses, we have had a most unsatisfactory Answer. We are told that a central body is to arrange for the provision of horses for the whole Yeomanry—some 25,000 Horses. Surely it would be better for the Yeomanry colonels to provide them themselves. It is an easy matter for Yeomanry colonels to ear-mark certain horses and notify the fact that they have so ear-marked them at headquarters. The Commander in-Chief in Scotland gave instructions that all the horses attached to his command were to have a price put on them, and that price is reported, so that if the whole of the Yeomanry were mobilised to-morrow, he would not only know where his horses are, but the price that would have to be paid for them. What is the use of having this central command? If there is an invasion the wires will no doubt be cut, and orders for horses will be delayed in transmission. This is a question which I hope the noble Earl will consider. I do not think any of our Questions to-day on the subject of training, or with regard to mobilisation, are at all unfair. The statements which have been made in both Houses of Parliament have shown that Yeomanry officers have done their best as far as their units go to become as efficient as possible, that hard and good work has been put in; and I think it is a fair request that we should ask the War Office to so far help us that we may not only be efficient in ourselves but become an efficient engine in war, and that we certainly cannot be until our staff is put in a proper position, until our senior officers are trained, until our men are given full opportunity of being able to shoot well, and until our horses, equipment, and stores are put on such a footing as to be on hand at once.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I should like to support the views of the noble Lord who has just sat down on two points. The first point is with regard to a school of musketry. I appreciate very much the importance of the school at Hythe. That school, even if others were established, would always be the most important school; but I do not see

  831
  that the value of Hythe would be depreciated if other schools were formed in different parts of the country. I feel very strongly on this subject, for if these schools were established they would give facilities for Yeomanry officers to go through a musketry course. No doubt, as the noble Earl said, those who live near Hythe do not attend more than those who live at a distance, but I do not think that is a solid argument. Common sense indicates that if there were more schools of musketry in various parts of the country it would be a very great advantage to the Auxiliary Forces generally. This is a very important matter. We all know that attention has been called to the necessity of greater efficiency in rifle-shooting, and if these additional schools of musketry are not established I think it will be a very great mistake.
  I heartily agree with Lord Lovat as to the extremely unsatisfactory nature of the Answer given by the noble Earl with regard to the horsing of the Yeomanry. If you leave the getting of horses for the Yeomanry in an emergency to the Remount Department, it will be doing the same thing which the Duke of Bedford spoke of with regard to the Militia—destroying the local interest in the force. I feel convinced that the colonels of these regiments would be very much more able to find the horses than a central authority. The noble Earl said that when mobilisation was about to take place the Government would practically have their hand on nearly every horse. I do not exactly understand that. I am quite aware that in old days certain horses were at the call of the Government, but I do not know in what way they have a hold on private property. I feel that it would be very much better to use the local knowledge of the Yeomanry officers and those interested rather than leave this entirely, as is proposed, to the central Remount Department.
  LORD WENLOCK: Has the noble Earl the Under-Secretary any objection to acceding to my Motion for Papers.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: What Papers do you want? I have no Papers.
  LORD WENLOCK: I heard with astonishment that in the event of sudden emergency remount agents were to go about the country buying horses. I do not think it would be possible for any one regiment to be horsed by remount agents under a week or ten days; and, judging by what happened when the remount agents went round my part of Yorkshire during the South African War, all I can say is, "God help us if we are to have that class of animal landed on us." It was commonly stated by the farmers in the neighbourhood that after the remount agents had been there, there was not a bad horse left in the whole county. With regard to this question of providing horses, I should be very glad if the noble Earl could produce any Papers on the subject to show how it has been dealt with.
  *LORD HARRIS: I am under an obligation at this moment to mobilise on the second day after receiving orders. Perhaps the noble Earl will explain how the horses are to arrive by then?
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: The point I attempted to make clear was this. Long before war breaks out it is perfectly obvious that the Remount Department will set to work buying horses, and we shall have large depôts all over the country. That is under the present remount scheme, which has been published. I think your Lordships would find that we should have probably bought all the Yeomanry horses long before the Yeomanry were called out, and therefore we should have enormous stocks of horses on hand and should be able to horse these regiments more quickly than the colonels themselves.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): Do I understand the noble Earl to agree to produce the Papers moved for?
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I do not know that there are any to produce.
  On Question, Motion agreed to; and ordered accordingly.

  ARMY ORGANISATION.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I rise "To ask the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the presentdistrictor divisional organisation of the Army, Militia, and Volunteers in the matter of commands, transport, and armaments, including big moveable guns of position, and as regards their readiness in all ways to take the field and be transported at shortest notice, and within what time, to the point on the east coast nearest to their district or divisional headquarters."
  A very few words will explain the reason why I have placed this notice on the Paper. It will be in your Lordships' recollection that a week ago to-day a Resolution which I had the privilege of submitting to the House was accepted by the Government and adopted unanimously by your Lordships. The latter part of that Resolution declared that—
  "It is needful that our land defences should at all times be such that no nation would ever attempt in any form a hostile lauding on our shores."
  The Question I am asking follows, as a matter of course, from the adoption of that Resolution. "At all times" naturally includes the present time, and I think your Lordships must feel, especially after the speech of Lord Lovat, that we ought to know exactly the present state of matters as regards home defence. That is my reason for putting down this notice. I have no doubt that the Answer which I shall receive will not be satisfactory, and as the Question is so important I reserve to myself the right, in that event, of bringing the subject again before your Lordships at a later date.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I confess at once that I have had some difficulty in understanding this Question, but I gather that the noble Earl wishes a great deal of detailed information as to our present mobilisation
  834
  scheme. It is obvious that it would not be in the public interest that we should give details of our mobilisation scheme. All the information concerning the organisation of the military forces at home and abroad which it is considered desirable to make public is contained in the monthly Army List. There are six main commands in the United Kingdom and five in India, including the Burmah command. In peace, eight field Army divisions are organised at home and ten in India. Four cavalry brigades are formed in the United Kingdom. There are, in addition, in the United Kingdom ten coast defence commands and thirteen territorial districts, whose commanders and staffs are additional to the divisional and brigade commands. Details regarding the mobilisation of the field army and of defences are confidential, and no information can be published regarding the arrangements for organising in war at home or abroad bodies of troops other than those which are shown in the Army List. Questions of armament are also treated as confidential.
  *LORD HARRIS: My Lords, I did not gather that the Question addressed to the noble Earl referred only to mobilisation, and I would suggest that information should be given as to the altered conditions of the various commands. Under the old arrangement the general officer commanding a district commanded all branches of the Army—Regular, Auxiliary, cavalry, artillery, engineers, infantry, and supply. I am told that all that has been changed, and that the general officer commanding a district may have nothing whatever to do with cavalry quartered in his district, nothing whatever to do with artillery quartered in his district, and nothing whatever to do, I suppose, with engineers, but certainly nothing whatever to do with Yeomanry or Militia artillery. I can understand that the divisional commander may have a good deal to do with all these, but the officer who used to be the general officer commanding a district may now be only an officer commanding an infantry division. This appears to me to be a very remarkable change. I do not suggest for a moment that it is not an advisable one. I have the

  835
  greatest confidence in the military authorities devising a good scheme; but it seemed to me that the noble Earl's reply was not very complete, and referred only to mobilisation, and not to the subject of organisation.
  I am told that in one divisional command there is a fortress, and the general officer who has been commanding in the local military area, having at one time had command of cavalry and artillery as well as other branches, has now no control in that fortress over certain garrison batteries that are there. For instance, the canteen is under his command, but if the garrison gunners kick up a row in the canteen he has no control over them. If a Militia artillery regiment is assembled in the neighbourhood for its month's training, and if some of the men are arrested by his picket he has no authority over them. There is now, I suppose, a fortress commander, a special commander of engineers, a special commander of Yeomanry, and all those will be responsible, I take it, to a divisional commander. But the officer who was commanding in the local military area has now nothing like the combined command he once had. It seems that the number of general officers who are now exercising command over several branches of the service must be very limited indeed. I have only ventured to interpose these few remarks because it seemed to me that the reply of the noble Earl the Under-Secretary did not deal with the whole of the Question placed on the Paper by the noble Earl.
  The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I am afraid I do not recognise in the Question addressed to me any request that I should enter into the details of reorganisation of command. If the noble Lord will put the Questions on the Paper to which he desires an Answer I shall be happy to look into the matter and give him the information.
  The EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I consider the Answer I have received unsatisfactory, because it evaded altogether the direct Question which I put to the noble Earl, who rode off on the question of secrecy. I do not desire in-
  836
  formation as to secret arrangements. His Majesty's Government have undertaken to be always and at all times in that state of home defence that no nation would ever attempt in any form a hostile landing on our shores. I only desire to be assured that the arrangements are such as would fulfil those conditions. Does the noble Earl imagine that the Military Attachés do not know all the War Office secrets, and how many guns and men they have got? Of course they do; and it is nothing but throwing dust in the eyes of the nation to give an Answer such as the noble Earl has given to-day. I shall take an early opportunity of recurring to the question.

  EPIZOOTIC LYMPHANGITIS.
  LORD BURGHCLERE: My Lords, I rise "To ask His Majesty's Government how many cases of epizootic lymphangitis in military depots had occurred in Great Britain before the issue of the Board of Agriculture's Circular to local authorities of January 26th, 1904; how many cases have been reported from the same sources since that date up to the present month; whether any cases of the disease have occurred amongst horse-owners or others in Great Britain; and whether the Government will issue a Return of the number of horses shipped from South Africa which were affected by the disease, and died or were destroyed on the journey home."
  Those of your Lordships who were present on a previous occasion when a discussion arose with regard to this particular horse disease, will not be surprised that further inquiry should be addressed to the Government on the subject, especially with regard to its existence in Great Britain and the measures that have been taken by the Government to protect horseowners and others from any danger of their horses cont acting the disease. We have learnt that this disease is a highly contagious one, which was imported, I believe, from South Africa amongst the Army horses that were sent from that country after the war. It is a disease the contagion of which is not only immediate, but what is called co-mediate—that is to say, a

  837
  groom or a person in contact with s horse suffering from this disease might convey it on his person or in some other way to other horses just in the same manner as certain, cattle diseases can be conveyed.
  It is also a disease the period of ncubation of which is in some cases very lengthy. It may be from three weeks to three months, but there are cases which have extended as far as a year and even thirteen months, though I believe that is exceptional. I mention this fact in order to show your Lordships the danger there is of this disease being conveyed if horses are not either slaughtered or quarantined. The Questions on the Paper also refer to the military depôts, and I am glad to see my noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for War here, as possibly he will be able to give us some information on this question which may not be in the possession of the noble Lord who represents the Board of Agriculture.
  I should like to ask the noble Earl one or two subsidiary Questions which arise out of those which I have ventured to put on the Paper. I should like to ask my noble friend, in the first place, what precautions were taken in South Africa to prevent horses being sent over here when it was known to the authorities there that such a disease as this existed; and secondly, whether—I do not put this forward on any information of my own, but merely as a matter of inquiry—there is any truth in the report that the authorities were warned that this disease might be introduced into this country by the shipment of horses and that that warning was disregarded. I should also like to ask my noble friend what precautions have been taken in this country with regard to Army horses to prevent officers and others sending them for sale or otherwise whilst they might be in a dangerous state. It was for that reason that I ventured to point out to your Lordships the length of the time of incubation of this disease, because it is quite obvious that if carelessness was shown by the military authorities horses might be sold to other people with the germs of the disease in them, which might be spread over the country. I
  838
  should like, therefore, to receive an assurance that every care was taken that these horses were not carelessly sent about the country, but were carefully; looked after and quarantined for a time.
  Lastly, I should like to ask my noble friend to define to us exactly what the relations of the military authorities and the Board of Agriculture have been on this subject, because I consider that to be a very important matter. Those of your Lordships who have had anything to do with the administration of the Contagious Diseases Animals Act are well aware of the difficulties that often arise in enforcing the precautions necessary to carry out that Act amongst private persons, and if there is one body which ought to assist the Board of Agriculture in this particular duty surely it is a Government Department; and I should like to be assured that that was so, and that the military authorities reported at once any case of this new disease occurring in the military depôts. I hope I shall receive a satisfactory Answer, which will put a stop to the anxiety felt on the subject and afford a feeling of safety and security to horse-owners and others interested in horses. I beg to put the Questions standing in my name, and to ask whether the Government will give a Return comprising the information asked for.
  *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, it may perhaps be more convenient that I should first deal with the specific Questions on the Paper. The noble Lord asks, in the first place, how many cases of epizootic lymphangitis in military depôts had occurred before the issue of the circular of the Board of Agriculture to local authorities of January 26th, 1904. The Answer is 111–98 in Great Britain and 13 in Ireland. The noble Lord next asked how many cases have been reported from the same source since that date up to the present month. The number of cases reported since that date is 415. The total works out as follows:—Ireland, 37 cases, of which 2 were cured and the remainder destroyed; Great Britain, 489, of which 99 were cured,382 destroyed, and 8 remaining. Those eight are recoveries remaining under observation,

  839
  and therefore we can say that practically the disease has been stamped out as far as the Army is concerned. With regard to the Return asked for, we do not know of any horses that were shipped from South Africa while suffering from the disease; that is to say, we do not know of any horses being shipped from South Africa that were known to be diseased.
  LORD BURGHCLERE: Does my noble friend say that this disease is not admitted to have been imported from South Africa?
  *THF EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I understand the noble Lord to ask for a Return of the number of horses shipped from South Africa which were affected by the disease. I shall be glad to give him the total number of horses brought home, but I am told that no horses known to be suffering from this disease were shipped.
  LORD BURGHCLERE: It would be satisfactory to have a Return of the horses shipped with any kind of disease. I should also like to know whether the Government were aware that this particular disease existed in South Africa before the horses were shipped.
  *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I am informed that it did exist in South Africa, but that everybody did not know that it was epizootic lymphangitis. It was confounded with farcy.
  LORD BURGHCLERE: Were any horses shipped from South Africa in a state of disease which might eventually have developed into epizootic lymphangitis?
  *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I am told that all the horses brought home were shipped with a clean bill of health.
  EARL SPENCER: And were none thrown overboard?
  *THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: Some horses — forty-two in number, I think—did die on the way home. But that does not prove that they were
  840
  apparently diseased when they were shipped, the authorities certainly did not ship any horses knowing them to be infected.
  I now come to the subsidiary Questions put to me by the noble Lord. As soon as the existence of the disease at home became known the War Office telegraphed an order to South Africa to stop all horses being sent home. I can, however, find no trace of any warning being sent from South Africa as to the existence of the disease; nor can any of the officers now in the Veterinary Department or the Remount Department remember any such warning being received. Indeed, they go further and say that the discovery of the disease here was largely instrumental in bringing to people's minds what was not clear before—its existence in South Africa. As to precautions to prevent the removal or sale of horses brought into contact with the disease, all such horses were most jealously shut up. They were not allowed to go out of the stable, or to be sold, or to associate with other horses within six months of the occurrence of the last case. As to our relations with the Board of Agriculture, we have kept that Department informed of the facts as they have occurred, and in the Report of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for the year 1904 the noble Lord will find ample evidence of the fact that the chief of the Army Veterinary Department was working in consultation with the Board of Agriculture in the course of the action necessary in view of this outbreak.
  *LORD WOLVERTON: The Question put down by my noble friend Lord Burghclere concerns primarily the Army Department, but I may possibly be able to clear up a few points in regard to the Board of Agriculture itself before the noble Earl opposite speaks. The purely civilian part of the Question, with which my noble friend did not deal, is as follows—"Whether any cases of the disease have occurred amongst horseowners or others in Great Britain. "I have in my hand a statement on that point which I think will be perfectly satisfactory to my noble friend. There have been nineteen outbreaks of this

  841
  disease in civilian stables reported to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries from April 18th, 1904, the date when the Order came into operation, to July 15th, 1905. The number of horses reported affected by the disease has been twenty-three, and the following table shows the number of outbreaks and the number of horses affected in each quarter since April, 1904. From April 18th to June 25th, 1904, there were seven outbreaks, and ten horses affected; from June to October in the same year, five outbreaks and five animals affected; from October, 1904, to January, 1905, two outbreaks and two animals affected; from January to April, 1905, two outbreaks and two animals affected; from April to June, 1905, two outbreaks and two animals affected; and from June to the present date, one outbreak and two animals affected. I think your Lordships will agree that these figures are satisfactory from the point of view of England. I have had a conversation with the President of the Board of Agriculture, and I may say that the Department are quite aware that there are two dangers in regard to this question: one the danger of the Army, with which my noble friend has dealt so ably, and the other the danger of infection being imported from Ireland. I am happy to be able to announce to your Lordships that my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Agriculture has arranged for a conference to take place between the authorities of the Board of Agriculture in London and the authorities of the Board of Agriculture in Ireland, and I feel confident that the precautions they will take will have the effect of stamping out the disease, both in England, where it is almost stamped out, and in Ireland, where it has been more prevalent.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: Can the noble Lord tell me whether any horses in England were destroyed?
  *LORD WOLVERTON: I am afraid I have not the figures with me, but I can ascertain.
  EARL SPENCER: I should like to ask whether the Board of Agriculture have made any attempt to trace the civilian
  842
  cases of this disease to the centres from which they came. I was responsible for one of the rumours to which the noble Earl referred. In the few remarks that I made the other day, I said that I was aware of a distinguished officer who had come back from Africa, who knew the state of the depots there, and who himself had gone to the authorities and warned them. I quite admit that he did not name this disease, and I did not say that he did; but he warned them that mange, glanders, farcy, and other diseases were very prevalent in Africa, and asked whether they could get the horses they required in England without taking those back from Africa. The authorities replied that they could, and he implored them not to have any of these horses back. That was the rumour to which I referred. The noble Earl says that no such information or statement was known at the War Office. I have a private letter which I can show him, and then if he likes he can make inquiries and ascertain whether or not the information is accurate. Then we should like to know what are the military centres where this disease existed. Returns are constantly made with reference to diseases in the country, and the centres are given in order that the people in the district may be more on their guard. I gather that the noble Lord is prepared to grant the Return which my noble friend desires, and, if it is not too late, I should like to ask whether he has any objection to giving the names of the military centres where the disease has broken out. That is really very important from the point of view of securing that proper attention should be given to this serious disease in the country. I am glad my noble friend opposite has given us an assurance that the Board of Agriculture are taking up this matter vigorously, because the disease has certainly not been confined to military centres. I know the Board of Agriculture deal vigorously with matters of this sort, but, although the number of civilian cases is diminishing—
  LORD WOLVERTON: There is one case at present.
  EARL SPENCER: Still, in view of what my noble friend has said with

  843
  reference to the uncertainty which, prevails as to the incubation of the disease, the danger yet exists amongst us. I, therefore, hope the Board of Agriculture and the military authorities will continue their efforts to exterminate the disease.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (The Marquess of LONDONDERRY): Your Lordships will remember that on two previous occasions, on Questions put by noble Lords opposite, we have discussed the existence of this very serious disease which undoubtedly exists, chiefly in Ireland, and to a certain extent in England. I do not for one moment deprecate such discussions, because they show beyond all doubt a great apprehension that unless it is coped with there is a danger of the disease spreading and doing irreparable damage to our horses in England and in Ireland. But, if I may venture to say so, with all due respect to noble Lords opposite, on each occasion when the matter has been discussed Questions have been put which were not on the Paper, and which consequently it was difficult for the representatives of the Departments concerned to answer off-hand. My noble friend the Under-secretary of State for War did his utmost to answer the Questions put by the noble Lord opposite, and my noble friend who represents the Board of Agriculture on this occasion proved to your Lordships that the care which has been taken and the endeavours which have been made to repress and exterminate the disease have not been altogether ineffectual. I do not for one moment complain of Questions which arise on the spur of the moment being put; I can only say on behalf of my colleagues that the Board of Agriculture will not relax their efforts either in this country or in Ireland to stamp out this disease, which we all agree is of a most serious character. With regard to the Return asked for, my noble friend who represents the War Office desires me to say that he will communicate with his colleagues and endeavour to place the required information at the disposal of your Lordships.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I do not know whether the noble Marquess thoroughly apprehended the Question of my noble friend Earl Spencer. My noble friend wanted to know whether there would be given the names of the military centres from which the disease spread. He thought it very desirable that that information should be given in order that it might be known whence there was a danger of the disease arising.
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Perhaps I did not make myself very clear, I meant to say that in the Return would be included the information which I understood my noble friend opposite to ask for.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: We can certainly give a Return showing the depots at which the cases occurred, but I do not know whether we can say where the disease spread from.
  LORD BURGHCLERE: Will the representative of the Board of Agriculture inform me whether the inspectors of the Department traced the civilian outbreaks, and to whom they traced them? What I want to arrive at is how the disease spread.
  LORD WOLVERTON: I shall be happy to reply if my noble friend will put a Question down to that effect.
  LORD BURGHCLERE: Certainly.

  DRUNKENNESS (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  [The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:—
  Drafting Amendments agreed to.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, lines 1 to 3, to leave out the words 'or anyone holding the commission of the peace of the borough or county in which the

  845
  alleged habitual drunkard resides.'"—(The Lord Chancellor).
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 2:—
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, lines 21 to 23, to lease out the words, or 'anyone holding the commission of the peace of the borough or county in which the alleged habitual drunkard resides.'"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3 agreed to.
  Clause 4:—
  Drafting Amendments agreed to.
  Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 5 to 10 agreed to.
  Clause 11:—
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 39, after the word 'month' to insert the words 'Provided that no person shall be liable to conviction under this section unless the Court is satisfied that he knew, or ought to have known, the drunken condition of the person in respect of whom the charge is brought.'"—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clase 11, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 12, agreed to.
  Clause 13:—
  LORD LUDLOWmoved to omit the words, "and, save when a defendant, a compellable." He pointed out that Clause 13 made husband and wife not only competent, but compellable witnesses in the cases dealt with by the Bill, but he hardly knew what exactly was meant by the words he proposed to omit.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 4, line 8, to leave out the words, 'and, save when a defendant, a compellable.'"—(Lord Ludlow.)
  THE EARL OF MAYOsaid the promoters of the Bill thought that unless the wife was compelled to attend as a witness it would be impossible to get evidence that the husband had done away with the goods and chattels in the house. There was no doubt a feeling against the proposal, and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack had expressed the opinion that it might break up the home.
  LORD LUDLOWsaid the noble Earl had not explained the words "save when a defendant."
  THE EARL OP MAYOsaid that, to speak frankly, he did not know what the words, "save when a defendant" meant, but he knew that the meaning of the clause was that the promoters wished the wife to be compelled to give evidence against her husband, and he was aware that there was an objection to that. As to the words referred to, the noble Lord, being a lawyer, probably understood their meaning much better than he did.
  LORD LUDLOWsaid that, although a lawyer, he did not know what was meant by the words "save where a defendant"; they were absolutely unintelligible to his mind. As regarded the clause generally, he objected to make husband and wife compellable witnesses, especially for some of the offences under the Bill. Undoubtedly if the wife were called, a conviction might be secured if she spoke the truth, but it was not a pleasant position for the wife to be placed in. On the other hand, if she did not speak the truth, she might be indicted for perjury and sent to prison. That also was very undesirable in connection with such cases. There were very few offences under English law in connection with which husband and wife were compellable witnesses. In the Criminal Evidence Act, 1898, it was particularly stated that although husband and wife were competent witnesses, the Judge could not compel them to give evidence of any communication which had taken place between them. Again, only last year, in the Cruelty to Children Act, husband and wife were made competent, but not compellable, witnesses. In cases under

  847
  that Act it might be most important that the wife should be compelled to give evidence, but the Lord Chief Justice, who introduced the Bill, evidently thought it undesirable to include such a provision. He strongly objected to the precedent which such an enactment would set up.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY)entirely supported what the noble Lord had said. Such a provision would be contrary to a generally recognised principle of English criminal law, and he thought it would be extremely undesirable to introduce it in the measure under consideration. He hoped the Amendment would be accepted.
  THE EARL OF MAYOsaid that after the statement of the noble and learned Lord he could not do otherwise than accept the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 14 agreed to.
  Bill recommitted to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 144.)

  SHIPOWNERS' NEGLIGENCE (REMEDIES) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  [The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:—
  LORD LUDLOWsaid he desired to move an Amendment to meet the views expressed by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Heneage) on a previous occasion in reference to Sub-section (4) of Clause 1. The object, of the Bill was to give the employee a remedy against the ship owner; it did not change the law, but simply gave effect to the law by preventing the shipmaster sailing away and leaving the employee without anybody against whom he could bring an action. Under the present Act the employee could bring an action against
  848
  either his immediate employer or the shipowner. The Amendment provided that if the employee brought the action against his employer, the employer should have the same remedies against the shipowner as the employee would have had; he would be able to arrest the ship. The Amendment was practically agreed, and he would simply move.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, lines 16 to 25, to leave out Sub-section (4), and to insert '(4) the words "person applying" in this section shall include I an employer who has paid compensation or against whom a claim for compensation has been made under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1897, as amended by any subsequent enactment, if he shows the Judge that he probably is or will become entitled to be indemnified under that Act, and in such case this section shall apply as if the employer were the person claiming damages in respect of personal injuries.'"—(Lord Ludlow.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Bill recommitted to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 145.)
  House adjourned at five minutes before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.