Lords Sitting of 10 April 1905

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Lautour's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. A Bill to dissolve the marriage of Jane Sarah Victoria Lautour, of Ansty House, Erdington, in the county of Warwick, with Ernest Lautour, her husband, and to enable her to marry again, and for other purposes. Presented (on Petition), and a copy of the proceedings in and of the Decree of Divorce of the King's Bench, Matrimonial Division, of the High Court of Justice in Ireland. Delivered (on oath). Bill read 1a.
Lautour's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. Petition of Jane Sarah Victoria Lautour, praying that substituted service of a copy of the Bill, and of the Order for the Second Reading thereof, and of all other Orders connected therewith, be made upon Mr. Frank W. Faulkner, of 7, Chandos Street, Cavendish Square, London, solicitor; read. Ordered, That the said Petition be considered tomorrow.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: Accrington Corporation; Accrington District Gas and Water Board; South Suburban Gas; Wrexham Gas. The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Leeds and Liverpool Canal Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
Sheffield University Bill [H.L.]. Committee to meet To-morrow.
Lautour's Divorce Bill [H.L.]. A witness to attend on the hearing of the Petition for substituted service.
Mortgage Insurance Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Commercial Union Assurance Bill [H.L.]; Clacton Improvement Bill
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[H.L.]; Truro Water Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Administrative County of London and District Electric Power Company Bill [H.L.]. The Earl of CAMPERDOWN, Chairman of the Select Committee, informed the House, That the Lord Romilly was unable, on account of illness, to continue his attendance on Thursday and Friday last and this day, and that the Committee continued sitting on those days in the absence of the Lord Romilly, all parties having consented thereto; road, and agreed to.
Abertillery Urban District Water Bill [H.L.]; Bangor (County Down) Water and Improvement Bill [H.L.]; Matlock Bath Improvement Bill [H.L.]; Bridge-water Canals Bill [H.L.]; University College, London (Transfer), Bill [H.L.]; Metropolitan and Great Central Railway Companies Bill [H.L.]; Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Formby Township Bill [H.L.]; Humber Conservancy Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Yarborough be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Lord Castlemaine; read, and agreed to.
Administrative County of London and District Electric Power Company Bill [H.L.]; East London and Lower Thames Electric Power Bill [H.L.]; Charing Cross and Strand Electricity Supply Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Leave given to the Select Committee to adjourn over Tomorrow.
City of London Electric Lighting Company Bill [H.L.]; Metropolitan Electric Supply Company (Acton District) Bill [H.L.]; Metropolitan Electric Supply Company (Various Powers) Bill [H.L.]; North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill [H.L.]; Central Electric Supply Bill [H.L.]; County of London Electric Supply Company Bill [H.L.]. Leave given to the Select Committee to adjourn over To-morrow.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill. Read 3a (according to order), and passed.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 3338. Italy (Finances).

  INDUSTRIAL ALCOHOL COMMITTEE.
  Report of the Departmental Committee on Industrial Alcohol.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  GAS COMPANIES (METROPOLIS).
  Accounts of the Metropolitan gas companies for the year 1904.
  POLLING DISTRICTS (CITY OF MAN- CHESTER).
  Order made by the council of the city of Manchester dividing the Parliamentary borough of Manchester into polling districts.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury minute, dated 4th April, 1905, granting a retired allowance to William H. Wood, Engineer-in-Chiefs Department, General Post Office, under Section 2 of the Superannuation Act, 1887.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PATENTS, DESIGNS, AND TRADE MARKS (REGISTRATION OF PATENT AGENTS) BILL [H.L.]
  Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  THE EARTHQUAKE IN INDIA.
  LORD REAY: I wish to ask the noble Marquess the Under-Secretary of State for India a Question of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether he has any further information to give the House with regard to the terrible calamity which has befallen India.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Marquess of BATH): My Lords, the names of those who, up to this morning, are reported by the Government of India to have been killed or
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  injured have been communicated to the Press; but it is feared that the list is still incomplete. The Secretary of State has received the following particulars from the Government of India in a telegram dated 9th inst.—
  "From Viceroy, April 9th, 1905.—In Lahore, twenty-five natives killed and considerable damage done to private and public property; in Amritsar, Golden Temple damaged and some lives lost; at Tarn Taran, nine killed and seven severely injured. At Dalhousie, damage to property, but no deaths. Palampur, in Kangra district, reported totally destroyed, and many hundred lives lost. Very serious damage also reported in Kangra and Jowala, Mukhi and other villages in Kangra Valley. Every building, without exception, in Kangra and Bhawan in ruins, including Sessions House and Mission buildings. The Kangra treasury has collapsed and treasure boxes lying under débris. Of police, only Deputy-Inspector of Police, one sergeant, and one constable uninjured, and three other constables alive, but injured. Of Tahsil Establishment only office kanungo and two chaprassies, of whom one is uninjured, are alive. Total number estimated to be alive is 500. Many people still alive are imprisoned in ruined houses. Similar state of affairs in most other villages in the neighbourhood. At Dharmsala, all houses and buildings throughout the entire station, including cantonment and bazaars, have been totally destroyed, with enormous loss of life."
  The mortality among natives is not yet known, but the following casualties among native troops have been reported—
  "Killed, 140(including women, children, and followers); injured, 186; missing, 71. Relief party, with doctors, medicine, food, and tents, sent from Lahore on April 5th. A double company of 34th Pioneers also left Mian Mir on April 7th to render assistance at Dharmsala, Palampur, Kangra and other places in Kangra Valley. Two more companies are being sent and two or three Pioneer companies are being sent from Umballa. Military authorities have been asked to hold other forces in readiness to send if necessary. An Assistant District Superintendent of Police with 200 constables are being sent to protect property and to take place of constables killed. No further information at present."
  This morning the Viceroy telegraphs as follows—
  "Latest information from Lieutenant-Governor of the Punjab does not add to details already wired. It is clear that towns of Dharmsala, Kangra, and Palampur are virtually destroyed, that loss of life has been very great, and that full measure of catastrophe, owing to difficulty of communication, cannot be ascertained for some time. I have only desisted from proceeding at once to scene of disaster at urgent request of Lieutenant-Governor, who will go there himself."

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  In reply to an inquiry from the Secretary of State as to the desirability of opening a relief fund, the Viceroy adds—
  "I am starting Indian subscription list for sufferers whose losses it will be impossible to meet from other sources, and in a day or two, when fuller information has reached me, I hope to be able to tell you whether we should also appeal to wider circle. I think that this may be necessary.
  "Commissioner further reports that at Dharmsala, owing to splendid work of Ghurkhas and others, nearly all bodies have already been exhumed. Special party been despatched to visit all tea estates round Palampur, and similar parties in other directions. Police report from Kulu shows some loss of life there, but no European casualties reported. In Kangra nearly all Government native clerks have perished."
  I am certain there can be only one feeling in your Lordships' House with regard to the terrible calamity which has overtaken India.

  THE BALLASTING OF MERCHANT SHIPS.
  LORD MUSKERRYrose to call attention to the loss of the "Eulomene," proceeding across the North Sea in ballast, and to the accident to ,the "County of Anglesea," which, on a passage from Rouen to Liverpool in ballast, was towed into Portland Roads on her beam ends; to ask whether it is intended to hold formal investigations in the cases of the two vessels named; and, further, to ask whether the Board of Trade are now intending to take the necessary steps towards enforcing the recommendations of the Light Load-line Committee. He said:—My Lords, we have to deplore the loss of another British ship sailing in ballast, together with the whole of her crew; and we cannot but feel sincere pity for the misery and sorrow which have been caused to the bereaved relatives and friends. Your Lordships know that I have taken some interest in this subject of the proper ballasting of merchant ships.
  I do not wish to prejudice the case of the "Eulomene" in the slightest, or to say one single word which would reflect on her owners. It is due as much to them as to the public that a thorough investigation should be held. What it is requisite we should know of fully is, what amount of ballast she carried, and whether, if loose ballast, it was protected by shifting
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  boards, which the Light Load-line Committee of your Lordships' House recommended should be enforced by the Board of Trade. Also, it would seem that this vessel's manning would need enquiry, more particularly as, besides the captain, she appeared to have one certificated officer only; whilst, so far as can be judged from their names, the fourteen men in the forecastle were all foreigners. I gather that no question is raised as to the accuracy of these latter points.
  The case of the other vessel, the "County of Anglesea," was fortunately not so serious as that of the "Eulomene," but it is serious enough, in view of the recommendations of the Light Load-line Committee, to require a thorough investigation. This vessel was proceeding in ballast from the Continent to Liverpool. She was sighted four miles South West of Portland Bill on February 26th last, on her beam ends, a position which, as your Lordships know, is one of imminent peril. The vessel was flying signals of distress, and three of her crew were in the rigging. According to the reports, a steamer went to her assistance, but apparently could do nothing on account of the heavy seas, and finally she left her and returned to harbour. H.M.S. "Scylla" then proceeded to the vessel and found her with her ensign reversed, which is, of course, a signal of distress. The "Scylla" thereupon despatched a life-boat to her. Ultimately, two tugs proceeded to the rescue and succeded in getting her in tow, when she was towed into Portland. The report which came from there was that the ballast shifted and she was thrown on her beam ends by heavy seas six miles South West of Portland Bill. I hope for your Lordships' careful notice of this disaster, which might easily have resulted in the loss of both ship and crew, in view of the fact that the Select Committee of your Lordships' House on the Light Load-line recommended that regulations as to securing loose ballast should be drawn up and enforced, and at the same time they deprecated strongly the practice of throwing ballast overboard before a vessel arrived at her destination.
  In July of last year, I had the honour to bring forward a Motion that, in the opinion of this House, His Majesty's

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  Government should at once take the necessary steps in enforcing the recommendations of the Committee. The noble Earl who was Chairman of the Committee, Lord Spencer, in speaking on my Resolution, concluded by saying that, with a hope that the Board of Trade would act more vigorously in support of the recommendations of the Committee, he did not think the Resolution should be pressed to a division. Further, the noble Marquess the Leader of this House, Lord Lansdowne, concluded his remarks by stating that by my having called attention to the subject and eliciting from the Board of Trade a distinct statement that the matter was one of which they were not losing sight, he hoped I would be content with the discussion and not press the Motion to a division. In deference to the views of the two noble Lords I withdrew my Motion. When, however, I see recurring disasters to vessels in ballast, due to its shifting and otherwise, I trust you will think it is perfectly justifiable on my part to bring the cases before your Lordships' House. As it appears that the ballast shifted on board the "County of Anglesea," what is necessary is a strict investigation as to the cause of this shifting and as to whether any precautions have been adopted against it in the manner recommended by the Light Load-line Committee. There are already regulations laid down to prevent the shifting of cargoes of grain. It is not necessary for me to dwell upon the serious dangers of either cargo or ballast shifting. If we require grain cargoes to be properly secured from shifting it is only logical to say that similar requirements should be enforced in the case of vessels sailing with loose ballast. I hope to hear that the Board of Trade will now give their earnest attention to the disasters I have named, and to the necessity of acting upon the recommendations of the Light Load-line Committee, which are, it seems to me, imperative.
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, before answering my noble friend's Questions, which are three in number, I have to express regret at the absence of my noble friend Lord Salisbury, who is unavoidably prevented from being in his place to-day to reply to the Questions on the Paper.
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  With regard to the first two Questions, I have great pleasure in informing my noble friend that the President of the Board of Trade has ordered an inquiry into both cases, which are, therefore, sub judice. In view of that fact I am sure your Lordships will not expect me to enter into them. They will be thrashed out by a competent tribunal, and the Report of that tribunal, when it is received will be published and will be accessible to my noble friend. In the latter part of his notice my noble friend again refers to the recommendations of the Light Load-line Committee. The concluding clause of the Committee's Report was as follows—
  "The Committee, therefore, confidently rely upon the Board of Trade to use the powers already conferred upon them by Parliament to prevent the improper or insufficient ballasting of ships. It will be the duty of the Board to apply at once to Parliament if at any future date they consider any extension of their power necessary in the public interest."
  That recommendation was immediately taken up by the Board of Trade, who issued a warning setting out the recommendation, and proceeding,—
  "In view of these recommendations the Board of Trade desire to call the particular attention of principal and detaining officers and surveyors to the instuctions already issued respecting the improper ballasting of ships, and (in the absence of any statutory authority to draw up and enforce precise regulations on the subject of ballasting) the Department wish to strongly emphasise the necessity for the survey staff exercising an active supervision not only over vessels on the point of sailing in ballast, but also over vessels taking in ballast of such a nature as may require exceptionally careful stowage and may be liable to the danger of shifting when the vessels are at sea."
  Nothing has occurred since then to alter the opinion of the Board of Trade that under the existing provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act they are able to carry out the recommendations of the Select Committee. If the time should come when they require statutory powers they will immediately appeal to this House, and to the other House of Parliament, to obtain them. I am instructed to say that at the present moment the Board of Trade are quite satisfied with the law as it stands, and do not propose to apply for any further powers.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, it is satisfactory to learn, at all events, that

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  inquiries are to be made in the two cases which my noble friend has brought before the House, and a great deal will depend, I think, on the outcomes of those inquiries. My noble friend who has just spoken was a member of the Light Load-line Committee, and fully agreed, I believe, with all our recommendations.
  LORD WOLVERTON: Hear, hear!
  EARL SPENCER: And the noble Lord will, I have no doubt, take care that the Board of Trade are kept alive to the necessity of seeing that the recommendations of the Committee are carried out, and that Board of Trade regulations are made with regard to the ballasting of ships at sea. It is a very important matter, and the noble Lord opposite does quite right in bringing cases of this sort forward if there is the slightest fear that the accidents to these ships are in any way due to the neglect of the precautions which the Committee thought necessary and pressed on the Board of Trade to adopt. When the Report is issued we shall be able to judge whether any further pressure should be brought on the Board of Trade, either to carry out the existing regulations more strictly or to ask for a strengthening of the law.

  PATENTS, DESIGNS, AND TRADEMARKS (REGISTRATION OF PATENT AGENTS) BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD COLERIDGE: My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, perhaps it would be useful if I make a short statement with regard to its object. It is an amendment and extension of the Act of 1888. The Act of 1888 was the result of a Commission appointed by the Board of Trade in 1885 to consider the question of the position of patent agents. They recommended that a register should be instituted, and that persons should not be allowed to advertise themselves or to put themselves forward as acting as patent agents unless they were placed on a register in accordance
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  with rules to be drawn up by the Board of Trade. Those rules were drawn up in 1889, and they are the rules which are in force at the present time. Since then grave mischief has been occasioned by the fact that persons have been in the habit of advertising themselves under various headings which are misleading, and have thereby induced innocent and unwary inventors to believe that they are registered as patent agents. The Board of Trade had their attention called to the mischief, and the result was that in the year 1894 a Bill was brought in to remedy this defect. That Bill contained a clause in all substantial matters identical with the substantive clause in my Bill. That Bill was referred to a Committee and the Committee passed the clause which I am now desirous of placing on the Statute-book, but owing to the general election in 1894 the matter went no further and was abandoned. I desire in this Bill to throw my net wider, if I can, and to embrace those persons who, under synonyms of patent agents, practise in this country without being registered, and without being qualified. Again and again the Board of Trade have held inquiries into the conduct of persons who have been on the register. Those inquiries have resulted in the Board of Trade striking them off the register for disgraceful professional conduct; but, notwithstanding, these very persons have continued to practise, to all intents and purposes, as patent agents deceiving unwary inventors by the use of one or other of the appellations I desire to prevent them using in the future under this Bill. I am told that there are some persons who are innocently using these appellations in the ordinary way of their trade, and they think it is unfair that they should be prevented from doing so in future. I am willing in Committee to add a clause, which I have drafted and shown to the President of the Board of Trade, saving all present rights, and in that way following the precedent which was set in the year 1888, when all existing rights or vested interests were at that time saved. That, I think, would prevent objections which have been entertained in some quarters to the Bill; and I hope that the Bill, with that Amendment

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  which I am prepared to move in Committee, may meet with the sanction and approval of the Board of Trade. I may say that the great mass of patents that are registered in this country are registered by properly registered patent agents. I do not wish to prevent any individual acting as agent for another, but I do wish to prevent them holding themselves out as patent agents under synonyms such as patent expert, inventor's agent, and so on, which really mean to the public the same thing as a patent agent. I beg to move the Second Reading of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Coleridge.)
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I have again to regret the absence of my noble friend the President of the Board of Trade. The noble and learned Lord opposite has clearly explained his Bill to the House, and I do not propose, on behalf of the Government or the Board of Trade, to offer any opposition to the Second Reading. When the Bill reaches the Committee stage the Board of Trade may have to introduce some Amendments, but they will be Amendments which, judging from the remarks that have just fallen from the noble and learned Lord, will meet with his approval.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  COLONIAL GOVERNORS.
  LORD MONK BRETTON: My Lords, I rise to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government will consider the appointment of officials of the Colonial Office to serve on the staffs of the Governors of self-governing Colonies. In rising to ask this Question I must frankly confess that I do so less with the object of drawing information from His Majesty's Government than in order to make a suggestion to them on a subject which I believe to be of considerable importance. When His Majesty the King appoints a Governor to one of the self-governing Colonies, the Secretary of State usually selects a gentleman who has
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  had no previous experience of that colony, and rightly, because the incoming Governor lands in the colony unprejudiced as regards Party and able to take a neutral attitude. In the same way the staff which the Governor brings out with him to the colony are new to the colony, and, therefore, for some little time at any rate, after the arrival of a new Governor, the Secretary of State for the Colonies at home receives no reliable information with regard to affairs generally in that colony.
  I know it may be contended that the Governor of a colony is the paid servant of that colony, and that he is in a sense the mouthpiece of the Ministry of the day in the colony. I venture to say that such a view overlooks the fact that the Governor of a colony is the representative of His Majesty the King, and that it is his duty to keep His Majesty and His Majesty's Secretary of State informed of what is going on in His Majesty's dominions, and therefore I cannot think that it can be contended that it is not his duty to give information to the Secretary of State. Indeed, my Lords, I do not think anyone who has read the history of the American Rebellion can deny that it is of importance that the Secretary of State should receive accurate information with regard to what is going on in the self-governing Colonies; and if he is not to receive such information, what is the position of His Majesty's Government with regard to the self-governing Colonies? They would be worse informed about a colony like Australia than they would be about a country like Japan. In Japan His Majesty's Government have a Minister and a staff of officials to give them information, but in a self-governing colony, if they cannot rely on the Governor, they have nobody at all. I would appeal to those of your Lordships who have been Governors in self-governing Colonies to confirm me when I say that a Governor can be consistently loyal to his own Government, and at the same time furnish information to the Secretary of State for the Colonies with regard to the general affairs taking place in the colony.
  When the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs appoints

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  an ambassador to, we will say, France, that ambassador goes to Paris, and finds there a chancery of experts who have had every opportunity of, and have been, studying affairs going on in that country, and whose business it is to report to him; but a colonial Governor lands in the colony with no such means of information, and I submit that it would be greatly to the interests of the Imperial connection and of the Governor, if, when he landed, he was met by an officer who had served with his predecessor and who would be able to keep him informed of the state of affairs in the colony. I should like to give your Lordships an illustration of what I mean. The Secretary of State for War has lately told us in the Memorandum on the Army Estimates that His Majesty's Government are in negotiation with the Dominion of Canada with regard to the evacuation of Halifax and Esquimault by the Imperial troops. I venture to say that that is not really a military question; it is a civil question of the first magnitude, and it vitally affects the relations between Canada and the United Kingdom. Is it fair to expect a Governor-General who has only recently landed in the colony to be able at once to give full information with regard to so important a matter? I venture to say that if the noble Earl, Lord Grey, had had, when he landed, an official from the Colonial Office who had served under Lord Minto as a member of his staff, he would have been very pleased, and I think that that is sufficiently proved by the fact that the present Governor-General of Canada has taken on a private secretary from the late Governor-General.
  But, my Lords, that is only the smaller part of the argument. The real benefit of the proposal which I desire to put before your Lordships would be when the official who had served under the Governor in the colony returned to the Colonial Office. I ask, what means have the Colonial Office of knowing about the self-governing Colonies? I wish to guard myself from appearing in the slightest degree to lay the smallest aspersion on the Colonial Office. I know every member of its staff. I have the highest admiration of their ability; I have the greatest respect for their
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  loyalty to their chief, for their industry, and for their general efficiency; but I ask, what opportunities have the Colonial Office of knowing about the self-governing Colonies? I do not mean to say that they do not know about what I will call the external affairs of those Colonies. They may be able to tell you every point connected with the Treaty Shore; they may know all about the Alaska boundary, or the Pacific cable, or the relations of Fiji and New Zealand; but how can they learn what are the true aspirations and feelings of a great country like Australia? You may say they have the Reports of the Governors. Yes, my Lords, but those Reports are intermittent, because the Governors are constantly changing. The Secretary of State for the Colonies does not know the Governors personally, or in the same way as the noble Marquess and his staff at the Foreign Office are acquainted with the ambassadors, because the Governors are temporary and the ambassadors are permanent; and it must discount from the value of a despatch if the man who reads it does not know the person who writes it, as might very well happen in the case of relations between the Governor of a colony and the persons who have to advise the Secretary of State for the Colonies in Downing Street.
  To continue the parallel with the Foreign Office, I should like to point out that members of the Diplomatic Service and Foreign Office clerks very often interchange, and that the Foreign Office is the gainer by the information they receive. In the same way officials in the Colonial Service of the Crown Colonies very often work in the Colonial Office and give the Colonial Office the benefit of their experience, whilst Colonial Office clerks go out to the Crown Colonies. But such a state of things is impossible with regard to the self-governing Colonies, because the staff of the Governor, being temporary, comes to an end with the Governor. I feel that I ought to give an illustration of the real evil which the present system involves, and to do so I am forced to touch on a matter of controversial politics, but I shall do so in as uncontroversial a way as I can. I happened to be in Australia at the time when the Secretary of State for the Colonies

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  introduced his Ordinance for the importation of Chinese labour into the Transvaal. I do not think anyone who is not personally acquainted with Australia can realise the intensity of Australian feeling on the Chinese question. They seem unable to dissociate the Chinese question in any country from their own cherished doctrine of a white Australia, and when one looked in the Press of Australia at that time one was unable to find any adequate declaration at all of what I believe were the views of the Secretary of State for the Colonies. It appeared to me that Australian opinion was guided entirely from one side, and that Australians never heard the other side of the question.
  I wish to call your Lordships' attention for a moment to what took place. The legislature of the Commonwealth passed a Resolution in favour of a referendum being taken before the Chinese were admitted into the Transvaal, and it was passed unanimously in the Senate and quasi-unanimously in the House of Representatives. Now, what did the Secretary of State for the Colonies reply? He began by recognising the right of the Legislature of the Australian Commonwealth to express their opinion about this matter, and he alluded to the part played by Australians in the recent war. He then went on to say—
  "His Majesty's Government regret that for the reasons which have been stated in discussion upon the matter in Parliament during this present session they have been unable to adopt the policy advocated in the Resolution."
  After that followed about ten lines containing two bare statements—that the condition of things was exceptional, and that the matter was extremely urgent. So far as I know that was the only official information which the Australian people had about this matter on which they felt very strongly, and in my humble opinion the Secretary of State for the Colonies lost a golden opportunity of laying before the people of Australia in a closely-reasoned and well-argued despatch the full grounds and reasons for his policy. Instead of that he referred them to speeches which he had himself made in the Imperial Parliament. My Lords, it is surely too much to expect of Australian statesmen that they should read the English Hansard,
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  and I venture to think the man in the street in Australia never heard any argument at all in favour of the side which the Secretary of State for the Colonies was advocating. My point is this, that if there had been to advise the Secretary of State for the Colonies anybody who realised what the opinion of Australia was, I do not believe this despatch would ever have been issued.
  One word more, and I have done. Your Lordships are aware—and nobody can be better aware than the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs—of the round-aboutness of negotiations between a self-governing colony and a foreign country. The Government of the colony has to communicate with the Governor; the Governor has to communicate with the Secretary of State for the Colonies; the Secretary of State has to communicate with the Foreign Office; the Foreign Office has to communicate with the British Ambassador abroad; and the British Ambassador has to communicate with the foreign Government. The cumbersomeness of this system has already found its vent in a clamour which has been raised in Canada for what is called the treaty-making power. As the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, said in a speech about eighteen months ago, the offer of the Government of Canada to take over the treaty-making power is not one which is likely to unite the Empire more closely. That seems to me certainly the case, and the present system of negotiation is not one that can indefinitely last, but while it does it is of great importance that we should do all we can to grease the wheels of that very circuitous means of communication. In that chain of negotiation there is a link which is not in touch with the others on each side of it. I mean that when a Governor goes out new to Government House he and his staff are as little acquainted with Downing Street as they are, on the other side, at first with the Governor, and I submit that it would be better if the Governor had on his staff a man intimately acquainted with the ways of Downing Street.
  I am encouraged to put this Question because I observe that not the least able administrator who has been sent out by the Colonial Office has insisted

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  on the adoption of this system. Lord Milner has had on his staff for the last few years a person taken from the Colonial Office, and I am glad to say that the noble Lord who is going out as High Commissioner to South Africa in succession to Lord Milner is following his example. I desire to say that I have not brought this matter forward in any contentious or fussy spirit; I have not brought it forward in order to enjoy the exhilarating sensation of making a speech in your Lordships' House, but because I believe it to be really a matter of considerable importance, much more so than would at first sight meet the eye. I know there are objections to it, but I believe that the advantages far outweigh the objections. It is naturally very awkward for a Government to lose some of its trained officials, but in the consideration of this matter I would ask you to remember that the Colonial Office was made for the Colonies and not the Colonies for the Colonial Office. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Duke of MARLBOROUGH): My Lords, I have listened with great attention to the observations which have fallen from my noble friend opposite. The noble Lord is well qualified to give his views to your Lordships upon colonial administration, for he was for many years private secretary to the late Secretary of State for the Colonies, and was in close touch and made himself thoroughly familiar with the machinery of that great Department. But I confess that, in listening to his speech this afternoon, I could not help feeling that he had strayed away to a considerable extent from the original Question on the Order Paper of your Lordships' House. The noble Lord prefaced his remarks by telling your Lordships that when Governors go to self-governing Colonies they are for the first five or six months very little acquainted with either the history of, or the late political achievements in connection with, the Colonies, and that consequently they are unable to give the Secretary of State at home any very accurate information of what is taking
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  place in the Colonies over which they preside. My noble friend has had experience in the Colonial Office. I can only speak for myself, and certainly during the time I have been at the Colonial Office I do not recollect that we have ever suffered from the lack of information from any Governor of a self-governing colony.
  I confess I fail to understand the point of view of the noble Lord. He says that a Governor-General has no means whatever of making himself acquainted with what has taken place in the colony before his arrival, because he has no official from the Colonial Office on his staff who had arrived there before he went out. My noble friend seems to forget altogether that a Governor of a self-governing colony has the whole of the information of his confidential advisers in the shape of the Ministers of the day in the colony. They inform him, and, indeed, it is their absolutely duty to inform him, of all that has taken place, and the function of the Governor-General is to weigh that information and embody it in a despatch for the information of the Secretary of State. Seeing that that machinery exists, I for my part cannot admit that the contention of my noble friend is a very serious one. Because a Governor on his arrival in a colony has not got some official who has been sent out there by the Colonial Office two or three years previously, I do not see how it can be said that he is incapable of sending to the Government at home adequate information concerning the colony over which he presides. My noble friend drew some analogy between the duties of a Colonial Governor and those of an Ambassador. I am not closely acquainted with the functions of an Ambassador, and therefore he must forgive me if I do not follow him into an examination of that particular question. I will, however, deal with one other point which also exercises the mind of my noble friend. He said that in his opinion the views held by the self-governing Colonies upon important political questions which affect the Empire are inadequately represented in this country, or inadequately understood by us.
  LORD MONK BRETTON: I did not say that the Colonies were inadequately represented in this country.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: The noble Lord stated that the views held by the self-governing Colonies were inadequately represented in this country. He seems to forget entirely that we are well acquainted in the Colonial Office with the views of the self-governing Colonies, and that we have machinery in the shape of despatches from the Governor or Governor-General. In addition, the important newspapers are continually sent home to the Colonial Office, and all those matters which we think exercise the minds of those dwelling in our self-governing Colonies are carefully marked and invariably brought before the notice of the Secretary of State. Not only do we receive information through the colonial Press, but in any question affecting a particular colony there is the ordinary method of transmitting information, the cable and the telegraph, and there is, too, the English Press. My noble friend knows perfectly well that if there is any matter of importance affecting Canada, Australia, or any of the other Colonies, it is immediately cabled over and included in the information in the daily Press here. I would go further and remind my noble friend that if there is a matter which seriously affects the interests of a self-governing colony, a matter on which the colonists themselves feel strongly, they are able to have their views represented every four years at the Colonial Conference over which the Secretary of State for the Colonies presides. So I really do not think my noble friend's contention will, on reflection, be given that importance which he has attached to it.
  My noble friend passed from the consideration of the feelings of the self-governing Colonies and gave the House an illustration in support of his argument. During his visit to Australia he was enabled, he said, to hear from the Australians their views upon the question of Chinese labour, and he told us, furthermore, that the Australians had received very little information as to the views and ideas of the Imperial Government upon this most important and difficult problem. I am at a loss to understand how that
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  could possibly be true. There is the medium of the Press and there is the telegraph, and if the Australians were so interested in this problem as my noble friend assures us they were, surely the Press of that country would have taken the first means it could to inform itself of the views and the ideas of the people here at home. My noble friend seems to think that all these difficulties might have been removed if only there had been some representative of the Colonial Office who had arrived in Australia two or three years before this particular problem presented itself both to our notice and to the notice of the people of Australia. I cannot agree with my noble friend. I do not think the advantages of the presence of a permanent official in the different self-governing Colonies would be so great as he imagines.
  The noble Lord is perfectly aware that during Mr. Chamberlain's tenure at the Colonial Office he, in some instances, did send what are known as first-class clerks to certain of the Crown Colonies, and some of the more important officials in the Crown Colonies came over to the Colonial Office and worked there with the rest of the officials. This practice, although inconvenient, was on the whole found to work well. We were anxious that the first-class clerks might have an opportunity of learning on the spot political administration, and it was furthermore felt by the Civil Service at homo that it would be useful to have some of the high officials of the Crown Colonies at home in order that they might acquaint themselves with the work of the Colonial Office, and in order that we might test whether they were fit for further promotion. But although this practice held good with regard to first-class clerks it has never been extended to those who occupy the position of second-class clerks.
  My noble friend alluded to the fact that Lord Milner had a private secretary who was a second-class clerk in the Colonial Office, and that Lord Selborne was going to follow his example. That is perfectly true, but the reason why those two distinguished administrators have been authorised to take second-class clerks from the Colonial Office is that the political conditions of the Transvaal are of

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  exceptional interest and of vast importance. The administration of the two new colonies is a source of great interest to the young clerks in the Colonial Office, and they gladly avail themselves of the opportunity of going out to the Transvaal to work under such distinguished administrators as Lord Milner and Lord Selborne. But although the Colonial Office have consented to this practice in the case of the Transvaal, they do not view it with any very great favour, and for this reason. We have only got a certain number of second-class clerks at the Colonial Office; we have not got a redundant number; and if we are to supply the Governors of the self-governing Colonies with private secretaries or officials, as the noble Lord suggests, I fear the Colonial Office will be entirely depleted of all its able men. Having weighed the suggestion of my noble friend, the Secretary of State and, indeed, all those who advise him at the Colonial Office, have come to the conclusion that it would be quite impracticable.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEEN: My Lords, I would ask the indulgence of the House while I offer a few observations upon the interesting statement which has just been made by the noble Duke. We all sympathise with the aim of the noble Lord who raised this question, but I am sure the House, and more especially those who have been called upon to occupy the position of Governor in our Colonies, will feel that this matter involves very delicate considerations. There is a sensitiveness in the minds of our colonial fellow-subjects in regard to anything which might seem like, to use a colloquial expression, the Imperial authorities having a finger in the colonial pie, and this feeling of sensitiveness coexists and is consistent with the most complete loyalty to the mother country. I feel convinced that such a proposal as that which has been made by the noble Lord would be regarded with considerable misgiving. The noble Duke has very fully answered the contention of the noble Lord, but I think no portion of his speech will be appreciated in the
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  Colonies more than the sentence in which he indicated that the source from which a Governor should obtain information to send home is through his responsible advisers. That will be looked upon in the Colonies as a very sound and healthy sentiment. I would venture to add that apart from that, a new Governor wishing to be primed as to the ins and outs of the position would in the first place have the fullest confidential information from his predecessor, and, again, at the Colonial Office, before going out, he would receive the fullest information as to the position at the moment in the colony. The noble Duke the Under-Secretary mentioned various sources of information in regard to colonial affairs, and I think he will agree with me that there should be added the Agents-General for the Colonies in this country, who are being increasingly recognised by the Colonial Office as valuable sources of information. The example which the noble Lord gave as to the feeling of Australia with regard to the importation into South Africa of Chinese labour was not, in my opinion, the happiest he could have chosen. He said Australia did not know enough of the Colonial Office view, but I imagine his chief contention was that the Colonial Office did not know enough of the Australian view.
  LORD MONK BRETTON: My contention was that if there had been in the Colonial Office somebody who knew Australia personally, he would have been able to inform the Secretary of State for the Colonies of the intensity of opinion in Australia with regard to the Chinese labour question.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEEN: I should have thought the colonial Governors would have been able to convey information on such a point. But I merely rose to express my conviction that the reply of the noble Duke would in the main be regarded as eminently satisfactory, not only by your Lordships' House and this country, but by the Colonies.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I can add nothing to what has fallen from the noble Earl who has just sat down, but I think, perhaps, as I had the honour of filling the position of Colonial Secretary for three years, I ought to say with what satisfaction I heard the Answer of the noble Duke the Under-Secretary. I feel convinced that the proposal of the noble Lord behind me is one which ought not to be entertained. It is a delicate proposal, and I think I should not be very wrong if I said it was a dangerous one. During the time that I occupied the position of Colonial Secretary I never found the slightest difficulty in obtaining any information which I required in regard to what was going on in our self-governing Colonies, and I do not know that any other Secretary of State has found it more difficult than I did. You may rely upon it that a proposal of this kind would not be acceptable to the self-governing Colonies. They would regard with suspicion—undue suspicion, no doubt, but they would regard with suspicion—the person who was put in the position sketched by the noble Lord behind me, and I am very glad indeed to learn that His Majesty's Government do not intend to entertain any proposal of the kind.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I think your Lordships could have scarcely gathered from the terms of the Notice which the noble Lord put on the Paper that he was going to bring before us so serious and far-reaching a proposal as that which he has sketched out. I thought, when I saw the Notice, that he was going to call attention to the refusal of the Colonial Office to place some particular clerk at the disposal of some particular Governor, but I understand him to suggest a great deal more than that. What I understand him to suggest is that each Governor-General or Governor should be, so to speak, reinforced by the addition to his staff of a certain number of officials connected with the Colonies who will not quit their official posts when a change in the office of Governor takes place. That is, I think, a serious proposal, and one
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  which, as the noble Marquess has told us, would be regarded with grave misgivings by the self-governing Colonies. I think, if the noble Lord will forgive me for saying so, he showed how completely he misapprehends the case when he attempted to set up an analogy between these colonial appointments and appointments under the Foreign Office. The two things are entirely different. The position of a Colonial Governor is not that of an Ambassador. An ambassador represents his country at a foreign Court. It is his business to watch the proceedings of the foreign Government as closely as he can, and in reporting to his own Government he acts upon his own responsibility. The position of a Colonial Governor is entirely different. He is the representative of a constitutional Sovereign, and is himself the constitutional head of the Colonial Government, and although he has many and very valuable opportunities of making the Government at home aware of his personal views, he is constitutionally bound to act upon the advice of his own responsible Ministers. I am convinced that an endeavour to set up a little colonial secretariat in each of the self-governing Colonies would be a chronic source of suspicion and friction between the Governor and his constitutional advisers, and would be liable to create the impression that the representative of the Crown relied, not on his Ministers, but upon his own secretariat. The new Governor-General or Governor should be able to obtain the service of the best men for his staff that he can collect, and there may sometimes be a great advantage in his keeping on one or two members of the outgoing Governor's staff, but further than that I certainly would not go. There may be also some advantage from the occasional employment of Colonial Office clerks or other officers in the Colonies. That is a most useful practice; it is occasionally resorted to; but it differs entirely from the much wider proposal sketched out by the noble Lord, to which I hope no encouragement will be given.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock