Lords Sitting of 15 March 1904

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—Blyth and Cowpen Gas. The same was, ordered to lie on the Table.
Ipswich Dock Commission Bill [H.L.]; Harlow and Sawbridgeworth Gas Bill [H.L.]; New Zealand Loan and Mercantile Agency Company Bill [H.L.]; Barry Rail-way (Extension of Time, &c.) Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
Preston and Lytham Tramways and Tramroad Bill [H.L.]. Report from the g Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, s and ordered to lie on the Table.
Preston, Chorley, and Horwich Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the g Select Committee, with Amendments.
Marylebone Chapels (St. James', Westmoreland Street) Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a.
Weston-super-Mare Grand Pier Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Site for Duke of York's School Bill [H.L.]. Committed.
Great Northern and City Railway (Ex-tension of Time) Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
Matlock and District Gas Bill [H.L.]; Cambrian Railways Bill [H.L.]; Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Bill [H.L.]; Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Northesk be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Earl of Harrowby; read, and agreed to.

PETITIONS.
  WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (METRIC SYSTEM) BILL [H.L.]
  Petition in favour of; of the magistrates as the local authority of Glasgow; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 3126. Greece (Finances for 1903).
  No. 3127. China (Trade of Tientsin for 1900–1903).
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BISHOPRIC OF BRISTOL BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee without further Amendment. The Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the Whole House to be received on Thursday next.

  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, this is one of a considerable number of Bills which your Lordships have passed through this House and which, when they go to the other House excite no great interest and attention, with the result that at the end of the session there is no one to urge their importance and they are forgotten. This Bill in its exact terms passed through your Lordships' House last session. It is mainly for the purpose of removing what I am sure all the Lords Lieutenant throughout the counties in England have recognised to be a great inconvenience. By a very ancient statute the Lord Chancellor is directed—and, of course, lie is bound to obey that direction —to only appoint persons resident in the county. It very often happens that there is an extreme want of justices in particular parts and that the residences of the persons most fitted to be appointed are just over the border, and in those circumstances the Lord Chancellor is obliged to

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  refuse the recommendation of the Lord-Lieutenant. This is an inconvenience that has been recognised many times in the different counties, and which this Bill will remove. The Bill also provides that any person who is a justice of the peace by virtue only of holding or having held any office, may be excluded from the exercise of his functions as such justice by the same authority by which other justices can be removed from the commission of the peace; but the main purpose of the Bill is that which I have described. I have no loubt your Lordships will again read it a second time, and I trust that after it has passed this House it will meet with a better fate that it has hitherto done.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, last session, when the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack brought forward this Bill, I ventured to express the hope that it would be carried. I am afraid I did not follow its career elsewhere, but daring the course of the winter, acting as His Majesty's Lord-Lieutenant in Northamptonshire, I recommended two or three gentlemen to the Lord Chancellor for appointment as justice who lived just over the border of the county. We had very few magistrates at two particular sessions, and it was very important, where there was a joint session, that there should be magistrates who could act for both counties. Not; being aware of the fate of this Bill in another place, I recommended these gentlemen to the Lord Chancellor, who was, of course, obliged to decline to appoint them. A very great inconvenience arises from the present state of the law on this point, and therefore I sincerely trust that His Majesty's Government will urge on those who represent them in another place the great desirability of passing this very small measure, which I am sure in my county, and no doubt in others, would greatly facilitate the proper administration of justice.
  On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO CHILDREN (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  *LORD ALVERSTONE: My Lords, I need not detain your Lordships more than a very few moments in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. So far as amendments of the law are concerned, the Bill is identical with that which was passed by your Lordships' House last year. It is extremely important that the Bill should be sent down to the House of Commons at as early a period as possible, because all the experience that has been collected since last year shows that the amendments proposed by the Bill are very much desired. I have not re-introduced into the Bill any of the clauses to which objection was taken in your Lordships' House or in the Standing Committee. The operative provisions are those which your Lordships approved last year. Objection was taken, when the Bill was under discussion on the last occasion, to its form, on the ground that it referred to the earlier sections of the Act of 1894. I recognised the objection, but pointed out that it was difficult to amend the law and consolidate; it at the same time. The discussion of last year has enabled me to accede to; the view of your Lordships on the; subject, and I have got over the difficulty this year by consolidating the law; The Amendments of the Act of 1894 will; be found in italics in the print of the Bill, and the parts that are cut out are shown by erased print. In order to follow the amendments proposed in the law, all that your Lordships need read are the parts of the Bill which are in italics, and the parts struck through. All the rest is merely re-enacting the Act of 1894. The result will be that if your Lordships give the Bill a Second Reading, and it passes into law, we shall have amended, and, at the same time, have consolidated, the law. I feel that if the Bill becomes law several grave defects in the Act of 1894 will be remedied.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Lord Alverstone.)
  On Question, Bill read 2, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  BRITISH FORESTRY.
  *LORD BARNARD: My Lords, I rise to call attention to the Report of the Departmental Committee on British Forestry; and to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries whether His Majesty's Government propose to take any, and, if so, what steps to give effect to the recommendations of that Committee on the subject of education, instruction, and training in forestry. I am sure that many of your Lordships will agree with me that the growth of timber in this country is very far short of what it might be, and I think we are very much indebted to the late President of the Board of Agriculture, the late Mr. Hanbury, for the step he took in appointing this Committee. I think it is peculiarly appropriate that a subject such as this should be considered in your Lordships' House, so many Members of which are landowners. This is naturally a question which does not appeal primarily to the large proportion of farmers, and still less to townspeople. It is not in the position only of a landowner that I venture to address your Lordships on this subject. I have the honour to be Chairman of the Agricultural Committee of the Durham College of Science, which is situated in Newcastle-on-Tyne, forming part of the University of Durham, and is one of the educational establishments referred to in this Report.
  The Report contains a great many valuable recommendations, but I propose, on the present occasion, to confine myself entirely to such parts as refer to education. Mr. Hanbury obviously had in his mind this point when he constituted the Committee, because his reference to the Committee was that they were to inquire into the present position and future prospects of forestry, and to consider whether any measures might with advantage be taken, either by the provision of further educational facilities, or otherwise, for the promotion and encouragement of that industry. The Committee refer to a Report of a Select Committee of the House of Commons appointed in 1885, and reappointed in 1886 and
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  1887, and they endorse the conclusions of the Select Committee as regards the neglected condition of forestry in Great Britain, the possibility of improvement, and the necessity for the provision of better means of education. The most important recommendations in the Report are, in my judgment, those which refer to education. They practically group themselves under three heads. It is suggested that in our Universities facilities for theoretical instruction and practical demonstration are required. What is already being done at Edinburgh University is quoted, and it is suggested that a similar course might be adopted at Oxford and Cambridge. The Committee also refer, I am happy to think, to a plot under the supervision of the University of Durham, where we are already doing some work of this character. They also suggest the possibility of the transference of the Forestry Department at Coopers Hill to a University centre, and they remind us that each University contains many students who could, with very great advantage, take up this subject. They also draw our attention to the fact that in our Colonies, as well as at home, the demand for experts in forestry science is certainly growing, and will continue to grow.
  The second recommendation, or croup o£ recommendations, which the Committee make refer to those gentlemen who are proposing to take up land agency or some other profession of that kind, who cannot afford to go through a long University course, but who desire instruction in that subject. The Committee state that they have had in evidence that comparatively few land agents possess a competent knowledge of forestry, and I think the experience of many of your Lordships will prove the accuracy of that assertion. In the third place, it is proposed that actual working foresters and woodmen should be provided with short courses or lectures at local centres, and should be given the means of obtaining some instruction, at any rate, in the subject. I do not suppose for one moment that technical instruction in any subject can make a man a really practical expert; but, on the other hand, technical instruction can raise the general level of knowledge on a

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  subject, and vastly improve the general intelligence of those engaged in the practice of it. The Committee also state, and here I cordially agree with them, that they do not suggest any State loans for the purpose of forestry. I am very glad to see that, because I am perfectly sure that individual energy is far better developed in other directions. But, at the same time, they do advise that the State should concentrate any efforts it may make upon the provision of adequate facilities for instruction, and I beg to ask the noble Earl whether His Majesty's Government propose to take any steps to provide this educational instruction.
  I may say that the Committee of the Durham College of Science, of which I spoke just now and of which I am chairman, have, as the result of their consideration of this subject, come to the conclusion that, with the machinery we already have at hand in the way of buildings and professors in allied subjects, such as botany, and so on, and with our clerical staff, we could, in the Durham College of Science, for a very small sum, set to work immediately and appoint a lecturer or demonstrator in agriculture. The sum which we have estimated we should require for this purpose is about £300. We consider that the services of this expert might, perhaps, be made available for the landowners in the district, an I personally I think that, if landowners make use of him, they ought to pay for any advantage they get in that direction. Naturally, the fees from the class of persons who are to be instructed cannot be expected to amount to very much. The North-east of England has been in the past extremely generous and liberal in the sums which they have voted for technical instruction in the College of Science to which I have already referred, but the merchant princes of Tyneside cannot be expected to take very great, interest in this particular topic. I fear, too, that we cannot appeal to the landowners, and if the instruction is to be given I cannot see how it is to be obtained except through the generosity of the Treasury. Personally I should be prepared to assist in providing some financial means, and I dare say other
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  landlords in the north of England would do the same. But it is to the Government that we must look for any real advance in this matter. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name.
  *THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, the subject to which the noble Lord has drawn the attention of your Lordships is undoubtedly one of very great importance. It is of importance, not only to Members of your Lordships' House, most of whom are landowners, but to the country at large. We are informed, on the authority of those who are experts in this matter, that the supplies of timber which we receive at present from foreign countries are diminishing in quantity, and that, in all probability in the future, if not in the near future, the value of timber is more likely to rise than to fall. At the same time it is common knowledge that there are very large areas, not only in England but also in Scotland, which yield but very little return.
  EARL SPENCER: And in Ireland.
  *THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Yes, and in Ireland, which yield but very little return, and which, if planted, might be expected to yield a much greater return than at present. The noble Lord asks me whether His Majesty's Government intend to take any steps, and, if so, what steps, to carry out the recommendations of the Departmental Committee which was appointed to inquire into this subject. Well, my Lords, Committees and Commissions are appointed for different purposes. It has been said that many Commissions are appointed with a view to shelving a question. That is not the practice of the Department over which I have the honour to preside. When the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries appoints a Departmental Committee it is in order that it may get its advice, and, having got its advice, that it may act upon it; and the Committee to which the noble Lord has called attention is no exception to the rule. I am happy to think that that Committee had the advantage of being presided over by a Member of the other House of Parliament who has always taken a very great interest in this

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  question, and that upon this Committee was also one of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Woods and Forests, Mr. E. Stafford Howard, who also takes a very deep interest in the question of afforestation, and it is to his exertions and initiative that we owe the first steps which have already been taken in this matter.
  There are many areas of land belonging to the Crown which lend themselves to these purposes. There are the extensive Alice Holt Woods in Hampshire, which cover a large area of ground, but which, I believe, have not in time past been planted and worked on the most scientific principles; and although it was proposed by the Committee that the first experiment in this direction should be tried in these woods, it was found, on further consideration, that a more promising sphere of operations offered itself in the High Meadow Woods of the Forest of Dean. Without any assistance from the Treasury —an assistance which we always welcome, but do not always receive—the Commissioners of Woods and Forests have already established a school of forestry in the Forest of Dean. That school will be primarily for the purpose of educating men of the class of woodmen. They will pass through a course of instruction there which, it is believed, will fit them to become foremen on the large estates of those landowners who are prepared to devote time and money to this object. We have already a somewhat similar institution at Kew. We have an arrangement by which young men may come in and learn the business of gardening, and I think I may say that, without exception, every one of the young men who have passed through a training at Kew have secured for themselves excellent situations in private establishments. We fully hope that the experiment which Mr. Stafford Howard is trying in the Forest of Dean will result in training young woodmen in the same way that we are training young gardeners at Kew. The Department over which I have the honour to preside has no responsibility in regard to Scotland, but the Scottish Office has not been any more supine in this matter than has the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and I am informed that, again through the agency and assistance of the
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  Office of Woods and Forests, communications have been entered into with certain Scottish landowners with a view to securing a suitable area of forest land for the purpose of planting in the manner suggested by the Departmental Committee. We have also been successful in obtaining from the Treasury the promise of assistance in the foundation of at least two schools of forestry in England. Where those schools shall be established I am not yet able to inform your Lordships; but we have had applications from the University of Bangor, with which my noble friend Lord Powis is intimately connected, from the South-Eastern College at Wye, from the University College of Wales at Aberystwyth, from the Durham College of Science, and the Royal Agricultural College at Cirencester, and the matter is also under the consideration of the Yorkshire College at Leeds, the University College at Reading, and the University of Cambridge. With regard to the University of Cambridge, I have been considering whether that University would not be one of the first at which such a school of forestry should be established; but, as your Lordships are probably aware, a Committee has been sitting for some time past to inquire into the condition of Coopers Hill College, which up to now has existed as a school for the training of those who go out to assist in forestry in India. I am not in a position to say what may be the final decision of the Secretary of State with regard to the continued existence of Coopers Hill College, but it is, I think, a matter of common knowledge among those interested, that in recent years suggestions have been more than once made for the removal of the Indian forestry students from Coopers Hill.
  I should like, naturally, to establish these schools in two localities, one of which would be devoted more particularly to the training of young woodmen, and the other to the training of young men who are themselves likely either to become landowners or to embrace the career of land agents, and I think that those two would be we found in a combination which should include either the school to which my noble friend Lord Barnard referred or the University of Bangor. Either of those would pro vide the requisite

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  materials for the education of young woodmen, but I do not think they would to the same extent provide for the education of the young men who are themselves likely to become landowners. For that reason I should prefer that the second school of forestry should be attached to one of the great Universities. But that is a matter which still remains open, and until the decision of the Secretary of State for India has been arrived at as to the future of Coopers Hill College, I am not in a position to say where the second of those schools of forestry will be established.
  There were many other recommendations contained in the Committee's Report, all of which are under consideration; but I think the main recommendations are those to which I have referred. This matter is one which is exciting a good deal of attention in the country at the present moment, and I believe there is a growing feeling that we should not be behind foreign nations in our knowledge of woodcraft, that we have opportunities which have not been made the most of, and that the time is fast approaching when we ought to devote greater attention to the woodlands of this country than we have hitherto done. It is with a view to the development of that method of utilising the soil that my Department is most anxious to encourage the training of young men of the classes I have named in the science of forestry, and we believe that by making a small beginning now we may lead up in the course of years to great results, and that the time may come when this country will be far more reliant on its own resources for the production of timber than formerly.
  LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, as I had the honour of moving for the Select Committee which considered this question and of presiding for two years over its sittings, perhaps I may be allowed to express my pleasure that this subject has been brought forward, and the satisfaction with which I have listened to the speech of the noble Earl who has just sat down. When the question was brought before the House of Commons I made it my business to inspect several of
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  the schools of forestry in various parts of Europe, and I found that it was a matter of intense surprise that we had no such schools in this country. We are the only country in Europe without forestry schools, and although our forests are not comparable, in point of dimensions, with those of many other countries in Europe, still they are larger than these of several countries which have flourishing schools of forestry. In Germany, particularly, they would hardly believe it when I told them that such a practical nation as Great Britain had no schools of forestry, and the opinion was generally expressed that if they were established here they would do a great deal to improve the value of the lands which are under wood and bring many thousands of acres now comparatively useless into cultivation. I therefore congratulate His Majesty's Government on the steps they are now taking, which I cannot help believing will be of great value to the agricultural interests of the country.
  *THE MARQUESS OF GRANBY: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries on the statement he has, just made with regard to the educational facilities which he hopes may be provided for the teaching of forestry. But there is one thing which must be remembered. It is this, that a very large portion of the land in this country which could be afforested is in the hands of private owners, and under the existing law there is not very much encouragement for landed proprietors to plant largely, such as there might be if some of the provisions existing in other countries were adopted here. In certain countries—in Russia particularly, if I am not mistaken—newly-planted plantations are charged neither Imperial nor local rates for thirty years after the time of their planting, provided nothing is cut down in them during that period. It is not likely that a man planting a large area of land will get much return during his lifetime. His successors may, possibly. But I would call your Lordships' attention in that respect to a paragraph in the Report of the Departmental Committee which touches on that most delicate and difficult subject—the

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  estate duties. The Committee wind up by saying—
  "Moreover, the pressure of such a death duty on timber must both act as a bar to afforestation in districts most needing it, and compel the realisation of immature timber, thus preventing the practice of sound forestry. We feel that this irregularity in the incidence of the duties needs immediate revision."
  It is not, of course, within the province of this House to go into this particular matter, but it does seem to me that, if we are to induce private owners co take up any sound system of afforestation, something will have to be done in the direction I have indicated. The Report upon the condition of the forests and woodlands of the United States of America affords very remarkable reading indeed. You will see in it that even with the millions of uncut trees that there are in the United States there is not more than sixty years' supply extant, and it is quite impossible in that period to make good that supply. The same thing obtains in Sweden and Russia. One of the largest wood importers in the North of England has been dinning into my ears the importance of getting everybody to plant as much as possible, because he says it is extremely difiicult to get really good sound timber. The difficulties are becoming greater every day, and matters will get worse owing to the fact that large tracts of woodland in Russia, Sweden, North America, and Canada have been cut down regardless of the future. It is on those grounds that I was pleased to hear the statement of the noble Earl, for every little encouragement that can be given to the subject of forestry is of the greatest possible value to this country. I would suggest to those of your Lordships who have not read the reports of our representatives abroad respecting the forestry laws of other countries that it is quite worth their while to study them. They afford the most remarkable testimony of the extreme care, the great common sense, and the great national foresight which most of the European countries are now showing in respect of this matter, and in the very forefront of those countries is Germany, where perhaps the most scientific forestry is being practised.
  *LORD REAY: My Lords, as the noble Marquess who has just sat down has pointed out, we are very much behind
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  Germany in this matter. In the University of Munich alone several years ago there were seven professors dealing with j forestry, and I think it is not an exaggeration to say that Germany is honeycombed I with schools of forestry of a higher and a lower degree. Then in France, as is well known, at Nancy they have an admirable forestry school. The question of training forest officers is extremely important with a view to India. In India we have I had for some time a scientific system of administration of the Government forests, and we are more advanced in India than we are in this country. Very satisfactory results have been obtained in India, also with regard to grazing areas. With reference to what the noble Earl said about the new schools, of which the foundation is, I hope, very near, I trust that, in I selecting sites for those schools care will be taken that the students should have opportunities for gaining practical experience in the laying out of forests and plantations. The great want felt at Coopers Hill has always been that there were no forests which the students could visit in order to obtain object lessons; and it is well known that the students at Coopers Hill have to be taken abroad in order to see the application of the theoretical teaching they have received. That undoubtedly ought not to be required, for we have in England and Scotland all the elements that are necessary for good practical teaching. The noble Earl has not alluded to a most important feature of forest administration—namely, the provision of experts who can give advice to landowners in the laying out of plantations. I believe that the Board of Agriculture has a gentleman, Mr. Eraser Storey, who is available for this purpose, who has been himself educated in Germany, at Eberswalde. It is essential that in the management of forest areas landowners should consult experts, and that they should be available in every district of the United Kingdom. We shall then have the laboratories which are needed to make the training in forest schools efficient. The authorities in England, Scotland, and Ireland should encourage estate agents to apply for this expert guidance. I am glad to see my noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty in his place. I believe he has taken the initiative in

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  laying out his woods according to scientific plans, as has also been done by my friend Mr. Munro Ferguson of Novar in Scotland. They have made a valuable contribution to the solution of a problem which hitherto has not been sufficiently recognised. Then we have heard nothing with regard to Scotland, which, of course, does not come under the control of the noble Earl. I hope that if England is to have two schools of forestry, we shall have at least one school in Scotland. At present very admirable lectures are given in die University of Edinburgh by Colonel Bailey who has had much experience in the administration of forests in India. But a forestry school in Scotland should be established in one of the many forest areas and there will be no lack of students. I trust that, the noble Earl will be able to carry out vigorously and without delay the schemes he has explained to us.
  *THE EARL OF POWIS: My Lords, I also wish to thank the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for the interest lie has taken in this matter. With regard, however, to one passage in his speech, I must say I feel great anxiety. The noble Earl was most kind in receiving a deputation from North Wales, and he also made a very interesting speech when he visited Bangor this year. The noble Earl then led the people of North Wales to believe that Bangor would be selected for one of these schools of forestry. I do not in any way wish to compete with my noble friend Lord Barnard, who has brought this subject before our Lordships to-night, but still I do feel very strongly that Wales is one of the best constituted parts of the country for the study of forestry. With regard to the ancient University of Cambridge, at which I had the honour to be educated, and which I should not in any; way wish to deprecate, I cannot myself see, so far as forestry itself is concerned, that the University of Cambridge is quite suited for such a school. No doubt it is desirable to educate young men in the University of Cambridge in forestry, but I should not regard the district of Cambridge as being one of the best districts for timber growing. I think it is most important that these
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  schools of forestry should be situated where the students can have a practical opportunity of studying the formation of extensive plantations. My noble friend who initiated this discussion stated that this was not primarily a subject of interest to the working classes. I should have thought that if there was one subject of primary importance to the working classes, it would be the advancement of forestry in this country, which would provide considerable labour in the agricultural and hilly districts. If the large bare hillsides, which at present employ the very minimum number of hands, were under timber, they would constantly require attention, with the result that work would be provided for a large number of the working classes. I would press upon the Government that this is a matter of urgent importance. With regard to what the noble Earl said in his reply as to the timber of foreign countries running short, I would read to your Lordships the following extract from the Report of the Departmental Committee—
  "It will be found in our evidence that ex ports of high authority have recorded the opinion, already expressed in many reliable publications, that the world is rapidly approaching a shortage, if not actual dearth, in its supply of coniferous timber which constitutes between 80 and 90 per cent, of the total British timber imports."
  There is one other point to which I would draw the attention of the noble Earl—namely, to the fact stated in the Report that no individual effort is likely to cope with extensive afforestation. I think this difficulty could be overcome if some encouragement were given to landowners to plant—some such encouragement as that suggested by the noble Marquess below the Gangway. I would venture also to suggest to the noble Earl that he should approach the Treasury—I do not say immediately—with a view to money being advanced to landowners on easy terms to encourage them to plant large areas. The reason for this suggestion is that landowners, of course, cannot, especially in these days, lock up a large amount of capital for a long time, and if, as I would venture to suggest, it is of importance not only to landowners but to a great many other people in the country that land should be afforested, it is surely worthy of the consideration of the Department whether some method

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  such as I have foreshadowed could not be adopted to render the afforestation of waste lands easy.
  *THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I desire, with your Lordships' permission, to say one or two words in reply. Of course, one of the main objects we have in view is the training of experts who may place their services at the disposal of those who wish to undertake planting. I ought to have expressed my thanks to the noble Lord who introduced the subject, and to the noble Lord who has just sat down for the great willingness they have shown to give every opportunity to the students of the schools of forestry of availing themselves of practical experience in the woods that they own. The noble Lord who has just sat down referred to what I said at Bangor. I can assure him that the University in which he is interested, as well as the college in which my noble friend Lord Barnard is interested, are prominent amongst those which will be considered by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for these two schools.
  The House adjourned at twenty minutes past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.