Lords Sitting of 8 March 1904

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Great Yarmouth Corporation Bill [H.L.]; King's College Hospital Bill [H.L.]. Reports from His Majesty's Attorney-General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Young and Bell's Patents Bill [H.L.]; London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Bill [H.L.]; Weston super-Mare Grand Pier Bill [H.L.]; Govan Burgh (Electricity) Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
Manchester Corporation (General Powers) Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a (according to Order), and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Kilmarnock Corporation Order Confirmation Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EMIGRATION.
  Report on the Emigrants' Information Office, for the year ended 31st December, 1903.
  CANADA.
  Resolution of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Quebec on Irish Affairs, with the reply thereto.
  CROWN AGENTS FOR THE COLONIES.
  Despatch from the Secretary of State for the Colonies relating to the commercial business of the Crown Agents for the Colonies.
  INDIA (COTTON).
  Improvement in Indian cotton.

  COAL SUPPLIES (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Second Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the subject of the coal resources of the United Kingdom:—Vol. I.—The Report; Vol. II.—Minutes of evidence and appendices;
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  Vol. III.—Supplement. Plans and diagrams.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie upon the Table.

  Draft Order in Council relative to military manœuvres, 1904.
  Rules and regulations for the administration of the prisons in Jamaica.
  DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACTS, 1894–1903.
  Order No. 6808, dated the 3rd day of March, 1904, revoking Order No. 6794, defining a foreign animals quarantine station at Southampton.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated 3rd March, 1904, granting a retired allowance to William Matthews, 1st Class Clerk, Controller's Office, London Postal Service, under Section 2 of the Superannuation Act, 1887.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877.
  Statute made by the Governing Body of All Souls College, Oxford, on the 21st November, 1903, amending Statute 12A, Clause 2, of the Statutes of the college. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 23.)
NEW BILLS.
  SHOPS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to shops. Was presented by the Earl Beauchamp; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 24.)
  IRISH LAND BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill further to amend the law relating to the occupation and ownership of land in Ireland. Was presented by the Lord Muskerry; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 25.)

  BISHOPRIC OF BRISTOL BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  *THE LORD BISHOP OF BRISTOL: My Lords, the object of this Bill is to enable the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to lay before His Majesty in Council, for confirmation, a, scheme (a) for re-arranging the boundaries between the dioceses of the bishoprics of Bristol and Gloucester by transferring to the diocese of Bristol the ecclesiastical parishes contained in the rural deanery of Hawkesbury, and also the ecclesiastical parishes of Thornbury and Oldbury-upon-Severn, both in the rural deanery of Dursley, and for including the parishes aforesaid in the rural deanery of Hawkesbury; and (b) tor rearranging the boundaries between the dioceses of the bishoprics of Bristol and Bath and Wells by transferring to the diocese of Bristol the ecclesiastical parish of Brislington in the rural deanery of Bath (Keynsham District), and including it in the rural deanery of Bedminster. The Bill as I now move it is the same as the one which was passed through your Lordships' House last year by the most rev. Primate; but in the course of the winter representations were made to me which will induce me to move two Amendments when the Bill gets into Committee.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a,"—(The Lord Bishop of Bristol.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  SITE FOR DUKE OF YORK'S SCHOOL BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  *THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Lord WINDSOR): My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I should like to explain to the House that a year ago it was decided, after very careful consideration, that in order to bring the Duke of York's School
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  up to the requirements of a modern school, it was advisable that it should b-3 removed from its present site and taken into the country. A good deal of care was taken to examine and survey the several sites available, and a site near Dover was selected as possessing considerable advantages over the others. But in order to enable the school to be built upon this land it is necessary to abolish certain rights of way, the existence of which will prevent the site being utilised to the best advantage; and it is for that object that this Bill has been introduced.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Windsor.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a.

  NAVAL RESERVES.
  LOED BRASSEYrose to call attention to the Naval Reserves. He said: My Lords, in introducing to your Lordships not for the first time, the subject of our Reserves for manning the Navy, my main object is to provide an opportunity for a statement by the First Lord of the Admiralty on the progress lately made in the enrolment and training of the new Reserves, both home and colonial, which it is desired to raise. I will not dwell on financial considerations. The Navy Estimates have reached an amount hitherto unprecedented. The increase in the Shipbuilding Votes has not been more than sufficient to keep pace with the expenditure for other Navies, more especially those of Russia and Germany. The Votes for manning show a large excess. Voluntary service is necessarily costly, but our numbers largely exceed those of foreign navies. Our Estimates for 1904–5 provide for 131,000 men for Fleet service, and 55,000 in the Reserves, as against the 52,000 permanent men in the French navy, with an estimated strength of 50,000 effectives in the Reserves. There is only one way by which the cost of manning can be reduced—and that is by increasing and making more efficient our Naval Reserves. With 100,000 men in the permanent force, and 100,000 well trained men in reserve, we should have

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  great powers of expansion, while our expenditure would be less than at present.
  It is due to the Admiralty to say that they have not neglected the Reserves. They have reorganised the Meet Reserve with, as I believe, highly satisfactory results. The enrolment of a Colonial Naval Reserve has been commenced. In the maritime provinces of Canada, in Newfoundland, and even in Australia we have the means of recruiting to any strength which may be required. A statement by the First Lord as to the progress in creating this new important branch of the Reserve will be received with interest. It is satisfactory to know that the Naval Volunteer Reserve is being re-established. I was in close touch with the force when first enrolled by the Admiralty under Lord Goschen. I can testify to the zeal and intelligence of the men, more particularly in gunnery All the reports of inspecting officers were favourable, but in the original organisation a mistake was made. They were classed too closely with the pure bluejacket; but that mistake, I feel sure, will not be repeated. I congratulate the Admiralty on the hearty response which has been made to the call for volunteers.
  I turn to other resources for recruiting, as yet untried. In the great war, several regiments were embarked in the Fleet and did gallant service. It would seem that something should now be done on the old lines, and I would suggest that certain regiments might be permanently quartered at the naval ports, and trained as Marines. We should then have, at a comparatively small additional cost, a force efficient for service afloat or ashore. The reserve of stokers is the main difficulty, and the classes which give us volunteers for gunnery duties cannot supply us with stokers. It is difficult to recruit from the mercantile marine. The stokers of our mercantile marine are always good at their work, but sometimes impatient of discipline, and the conclusion seems to be that the Admiralty must rely mainly on men trained in the service. I offer to the Admiralty a suggestion. Make the dockyard labourers a reserve of stokers. Give every man a training in the stokehold before he, is taken into employment in the dockyard. When qualified as a Reservist the stoker would
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  receive dockyard pay as a labourer, and naval pay as a Reservist. If the plan should be found practicable, it would place at the disposal of the Admiralty, in an emergency, a large force.
  One more suggestion. All steamers passing through the Suez Canal are maimed with stokers of the tropical races. In his evidence before the Committee on Manning, Mr. Anderson, Chairman of the Orient Line and of the London Chamber of Shipping, recommended that a reserve of stokers should be enrolled in the ports of Bombay and Calcutta. The idea seems well worthy of consideration. In conclusion, I submit that the time must shortly come when the additions to the permanent force of the Navy can no longer continue on the scale of recent years. We have added 45,000 men to the personnel in ten years, and it is quite evident that for further expansion we must look more to our Reserves.
  *THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Earl of SELBORNE): My Lords, my noble friend is a well known authority upon tins as upon oil naval matters; but I do not think that he laid quit sufficient stress on what ate really the governing factors in this very difficult problem of manning the Navy—factors which differentiate our problem from the same problem in other countries. In the first place there is the enormous fact that we have to go to the open market for the men of the Fleet, whereas France, Germany, and Russia take their men under a system of universal conscription. My noble friend quoted certain numbers in respect of the French navy but that gives a wholly inadequate idea of the situation. The French Admiralty can fall back on the whole maritime population of France, and after that on the inland population. Therefore, both as to numbers and cost of personnel, our case is very different from that of other naval Powers. What really governs the numbers in the Fleet are the number of ships that, the public service of this country requires to be kept in commission in time of peace. In this country you might have a most efficient Reserve on the largest scale, not one man belonging to which is available for the Admiralty in time of peace; and yet in time of peace

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  we are obliged to keep a large Fleet in commission, much larger than any other country, and it must be exclusively manned by men in the permanent naval service. These two factors are or cardinal importance in considering this question. I am, however, in cordial agreement with the general principles laid down by my noble friend. It is clear that there must be a limit to the number of men in the permanent naval force, and we ought to look to the Reserve for the development which we should require in time of war.
  What has been the history of the Naval Reserve? The most important step was the creation of the Royal Naval Reserve about half a century ago. The second important step, and one which I think is likely to bear even greater fruit in the future than the first step, was taken by Lord Goschen when ho established the Royal Fleet Reserve. The Royal Fleet Reserve is a reserve of men who have been in the Navy, and who have left it cither owing to expiring engagements or purchase, or to invaliding and subsequent recovery. It is to that force we look in future for the solution of many of our difficulties. In passing I would allude to that branch of the Royal Naval Reserve, which was also started by Lord Goschen—the colonial branch. He started, as your Lordships will remember, a branch consisting of the fishermen of Newfoundland, which is flourishing. The numbers which are given in the Estimates are roughly 400. We are endeavouring to establish branches in New Zealand and Australia, but it is too soon to make any statement as to the success of that movement. I can only say that if has the entire goodwill of the colonial Parliaments. The scheme was adopted, not only by the Parliament of the Commonwealth, but by that of New Zealand.
  To return to the general question. The next important step was the appointment of a Committee presided over by Sir Edward Grey. The Board of Admiralty had very clear objects in view when they appointed that Committee. In the first place they wanted certain branches of the question to be worked out for themselves; but especially to have the sub-
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  ject investigated by a Committee that would command the entire confidence of the country irrespective of Party, and the presentation of a Report which could be laid before Parliament and be accepted as the standard for future Parliaments as to the future requirements of this country in respect of manning. That Committee included naval officers as distinguished as Admiral Sir Edward Seymour, Admiral (then Captain) Lamb-ton, and Admiral Henderson. The Treasury was represented by Sir Francis Mowatt, and there were distinguished representatives of the mercantile marine like Sir Alfred Jones, with Sir Edward Grey in the chair. Though that Committee was appointed by the Board of Admiralty I am entitled to say that a stronger or more qualified Committee has never sat on a subject of the same kind. Its Report is before the country. As far as I am aware no Member of either House of Parliament nor anyone in authority outside has disputed the conclusions and recommendations of that Committee. It was wholly adopted by the Board of Admiralty, and it is on the principles laid down by that Committee that we are working and intend to work.
  Your Lordships will see what an important development of the Royal Fleet Reserve that Committee has opened up because that Committee recommended under certain limitations that the old system of non-continuous service should be re-introduced in the Navy. They thought, and the Board agree, that short service in the Navy on the principles adopted in the Army can never obtain and never ought to obtain. The great backbone of the naval service must be non-continuous service, but we think that there was room for a strong infusion of non-continuous service men. The numbers recommended by the Committee were adopted by Parliament last year, and voted by the House of Commons this year; and the progress in the Reserve is, I think, satisfactory and encouraging. The Fleet Reserve now numbers 8,500 men, of which 2,500 are Marines, and 6,000 roughly seamen and stokers. The Royal Naval Reserve, which was dwindling for some years, has now begun to increase, and it now

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  numbers nearly 27,000 men. The Volunteer Reserve, which was only inaugurated twelve months ago, is 2,000 men; so that I think I may say that in three years the Naval Reserves have risen from 25,000 to 37,000 men. It is a very I important addition.
  The new force of Naval Volunteer Reserve differs from the old force in a marked way. The new force never could have been created unless those joining it had been willing to observe the conditions which the Board of Admiralty thought essential. The old force was not called upon to serve outside territorial waters. It was a coastal body, and, as such, its use in war was obviously strictly limited. We laid down two conditions as regards the new Naval Volunteer Reserve—first, when called out in war they must be prepared to serve in any part of the world to which the ship to which they were posted was ordered by the Admiralty; and, second, they must be prepared to do any work on board ship to which the captain chose to put them. Those two conditions have been cheerfully accepted by the men, and I have no hesitation in saying that they will be really valuable additions to our Naval Reserve. A suggestion has been made by my noble friend as to a proportion of the Army being trained for the use of the Navy in time of war. In naval history regiments have been embarked and have done excellent service in the Fleet, and I have no doubt that if the occasion arose the same service would be forthcoming. But if certain regiments were put down permanently as a naval force and trained for use on board ship it would not be an unreasonable act on the part of the Secretary for War to propose to transfer the charge of these men to the Naval Votes. I do not think that you can have a system of divided allegiance of that kind. The men must; be soldiers, and their allegiance must be to the military service, though in time of stress they may be able to serve the Navy, just as the Navy has so many times helped the Army on shore. The training of dockyard labourers as stokers for the use of the Fleet in war was one of the points considered by Sir E. Grey's Committee; but it was rejected for reasons which I think will be convincing
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  to your Lordships. In time of war dockyard labourers would be as much required by the Navy as the stokers.
  LORD BRASSEY: They could easily be replaced.
  *THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The man who is accustomed to work in the dockyard is a very different man from the man brought in on occasion from outside; and I should certainly not propose to deprive the dockyards in the moment of their greatest emergency of men accustomed to work in them more than can be helped. As regards the use of the tropical races in the stokehold, there are occasions and stations for their use. At present such men are used in the stokehold of some ships in the Persian Gulf, and I think in similar cases and conditions the use of these men may be extended. The Board are engaged in investigating the subject.
  LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, it is clear that if we had a war the first step would be to call out all the Reserves to man the ships. Then, when casualties occurred, we should have to fall back upon the merchant service to fill the vacancies; and in this connection T would call your Lordships' attention to the serious neglect which has been shown in not encouraging British seamen in our merchant service capable, of filling the ranks according to naval requirements. There is a scheme—I do not know whether it has come into operation yet—under which foreign seamen are to be naturalised on payment of 5s. Of course, some of these "crown" subjects, if I may so call them, may prove very useful men, especially the Swedes and Norwegians; but, on the other hand, some will be very indifferent indeed. I would suggest to the Admiralty that they should consider the question of the establishment of training ships, which we lack very badly, and which, I am sure, would attract a better class of men into the merchant service and lead to the formation of a very much more effective Reserve than these "crown" subjects.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.