Lords Sitting of 28 July 1904

EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY.
Ordered, That the Report of the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom, made to the House of Lords on Friday last, that the right of the Earl of Cork and Orrery to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to his satisfaction, be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, together with a certificate stating that such Report has been made, and that the House has ordered it to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:— Leeds Corporation (Consolidation).
Also the Certificate that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:—Electric Lighting (London). The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Felixstowe Gas Bill; Radcliffe Tramways and Improvement Bill. Read 3a,
with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
London and India Docks Company Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments; a further Amendment made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
South Shields Gas Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments; farther Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill; Local Government Pro
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visional Orders(No. 13)Bill. Committed The Commitees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Glasgow Corporation (Police) Order Confirmation Bill. Read 3a (according to order); Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 13) Bill (Tynemouth Order and Newcastle-upon-Tyne Order opposed); Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill (Caerphilly Order opposed). Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; viz., E. Malmesbury, V. Colville of Culross, L. Kintore (E. Kintore) (chairman), L. Glenesk, L. Armstrong; agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet on Tuesday next at Eleven o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.
Newburgh and North Fife Railway (Extension of Time) Order Confirmation Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Kintore (E. Kintore)), and reported from the Committee. [No. 166.]
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 13) Bill; Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill.
Moved, That the order made on the 14th day of March last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 16th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the above Bills be now read 2a. — (Lord Kenyon.)
THE ACTING CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Lord BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH): My Lords, before the House agrees to this Motion, I think it right to say a word or two upon it. The Local Government Board, through their own officials, have given me very courteous, frank, and, I believe, full information as to the necessity for the suspension of the Sessional Order in these cases. I believe that no fault can be laid to the charge either of the Local Government Board or of the promoters of the Orders to be confirmed on account of the delay which has taken place. There was considerable opposition to some of them in another place, and the delay arose mainly on that ground. With regard to the first three—Bills Nos. 9, 10, and 11—I am given to understand that they are now wholly unopposed, and it is therefore quite in accordance with precedent that the Sessional Order should be suspended and the Bills carried to a successful conclusion. With regard to the other Bill—No. 13— I understand that there is still some opposition to be dealt with; and the same applies to the Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8) Bill standing on the Paper to-day in the name of the noble Lord who represents the Board of Trade. Under ordinary circumstances I should have felt it my duty to suggest to your Lordships that it was too late to enter on opposed business of this kind; but I am sure your Lordships would not wish to interpose a merely technical objection to the carrying through of Bills of this character if it can possibly be avoided. Therefore I have to say that in the special circumstances, and as there will be a good many noble Lords in London next week, I have secured a Select Committee to sit and adjudicate upon these Bills, so that we shall be able to deal with the opposition to the Orders in a proper and constitutional way. I make this explanation because six weeks have elapsed since the expiry of time for reading Provisional Order Confirmation Bills a second time, and I think the House might legitimately have objected to going on to opposed business at this late period of the session. In the special circumstances of the case, and in the hope that this will not be considered a precedent for dealing with opposed business of this kind at a similar period
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of another session, I would suggest to your Lordships that you should agree to the Motion to suspend the Sessional Order in these cases.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Bills read 2a accordingly, and committed.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  Report of the progress of the Ordnance Survey, to the 31st March, 1904.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 3237. Spain (Barcelona); No. 3238. Guatemala; No. 3239. Italy (Central Italy).
  COLONIES (ANNUAL).
  No. 421. Hong-Kong (Report for 1903).
  PRISONS (IRELAND).
  Twenty-sixth Report of the General Prisons Board (Ireland), 1903–4.
  ARMY.
  Summary of the recommendations of the Inter-Departmental Committee, 1900, on the Reserves of Guns, Stores, etc., required for the Army; showing also to what extent these recommendations have been carried out.
  BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND MARRIAGES (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Sixty-sixth Annual Report of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England and Wales (1903).

  AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS(IRELAND).
  Agricultural Statistics of Ireland; with detailed Report for the year 1903.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  LONDON CORPORATION.
  Accounts of the Chamberlain of London for 1903.
  POLLING DISTRICTS (BOROUGH OF CAMBRIDGE).
  Order made by the Council of the Borough of Cambridge altering certain polling districts in the borough.

  COURT OF PROBATE DIVISION (HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE) (IRELAND).
  Annual account of receipts and disbursements, for the year ended 31st December, 1903.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

  COUNTY OF SUFFOLK BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 165.)

  RUSSIAN SEIZURES OF BRITISH SHIPS.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I see my noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his place, and I should like to ask him a Question of which I have given him general notice. I want to know if he can give the House any information with respect to the recent seizures of British ships by the Russians —either by the so-called Volunteer Fleet which came through the Dardanelles as private vessels under the merchant flag and subsequently hoisted the national flag and acted as warships, or by the regular men-of-war of the Russian navy. The first class includes the "Malacca," the "Formosa," and other ships; and the second class the "Knight Commander," which is reported to have been sunk by the Russians. I need not say more, in asking this Question, than that considerable anxiety has been occasioned by these seizures and this action by the Russian ships in the Red Sea and elsewhere, and that it will give great satisfaction to the country if the noble Marquess can give us information which will reassure us on this important point.
  THE SECRETARY of STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I gather that my noble friend has addressed this Question to me rather with the object of eliciting from me some statement of the facts and of the situation which at this moment confronts us, than with the expectation that I should enter into anything like a discussion of the complicated and difficult problems of international law which arise in connection with the incidents to which he has referred.
  EARL SPENCER: Hear, hear!
  THE MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: The later phase of this question may, I think, be considered to have commenced with the seizure of the Peninsular and Oriental steamship "Malacca, to which the noble Earl referred. That ship, having on board a miscellaneous cargo of about 4,000 tons, of which twenty-three tons consisted of munitions of war,the property of HisMajesty's Government, and destined for the dockyards at Hong-Kong and Singapore, was seized on the 13th of this month in the Red Sea. Her passengers and the crew were landed at Port Said, with the exception of the chief officer and two other persons. The ship was sent homewards flying the Russian flag and in charge of a Russian prize crew.
  We conceived it to be our duty to make a strong representation to the Russian Government in consequence of this occurrence. Our representation was based mainly upon the character and antecedents of the ship by which the seizure was made. That ship belonged to the Russian Volunteer Fleet. She had lately passed through the Dardanelles; and, in our view, it would have been impossible for her without a breach of the law of Europe to pass through these Straits if she had at the time been a ship of war. If on the other hand it were assumed that she was, at the time of her passage through the Straits, a peaceful vessel, it seemed to us intolerable that within a short space of time she should be transformed into a ship of war and should be found harrying neutral commerce in the waters of the Red Sea. We mentioned, as a subsidiary point in our protest, the fact that the munitions of war on board of her were the property of the Government, and therefore could not be regarded as contraband of war.
  My Lords, the result of our remonstrance was as follows. We received, in the first place, from the Russian Government an assurance that the "Malacca" would be released as soon as orders for her release could be conveyed to those on board. She had left Port Said before these orders could reach her, and she did not touch port again until she reached Algiers, at which place she arrived yesterday. I am glad to say she was released last night, and, I believe, at this moment flies the British flag. The second result of our representations

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  was that orders were given by the Russian Government to prevent a recurrence of any similar captures by ships of the Volunteer Fleet; and it was also explained to us that, if any such captures should occur before the orders to prevent them could reach their destination, those captures would be regarded as non avenus and as the result of a misunderstanding. In compliance with that assurance the "Ardova" and "Formosa," two other steamers which had been seized, I believe by the same Russian vessel, were released yesterday. We have also been informed that these Volunteer ships are to be withdrawn from the Red Sea to some other destination, and we understand that it is not intended that they shall in the future be employed upon a similar service.
  I venture to hope that your Lordships will think that, so far as these particular incidents are concerned, the controversy may be considered as having passed out of the acute stage, if, indeed, it can be said to have ever entered that stage at all. But it will be obvious to your Lordships that there remain other and very serious questions which will have to engage the attention of His Majesty's Government—such questions, I mean, as the question of principle involved in the status of these Volunteer ships; such questions, again, as arise in connection with the effect of international engagements upon the navigation of the approaches to the Black Sea. All these questions, at any rate, can be examined without the impediment which would certainly have been occasioned had these ships still remained in the hands of their captors. Amongst other points for consideration, I may refer to cases in which mails have been interfered with by Russian cruisers, and cases in which, unless we are misinformed, the cargoes of captured vessels have been taken off them before they have been under the adjudication of a Prize Court.
  But, my Lords, in our view, infinitely the most serious of these outstanding cases is that of which the noble Earl spoke: the case, I mean of the "Knight Commander." The "Knight Commander"—a British vessel —was on her way from Hoboken to Japan with a miscellaneous cargo on board.
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  The facts, so far as we have been able to ascertain them, are as follows. She was required to stop by ships belonging to the Vladivostok Squadron. She obeyed the orders. She was boarded by men from the Russian ships. Her captain and crew were taken off her after what appears to have been a very perfunctory examination. And when the crew had been taken on board the Russian ships, two shells were fired into the "Knight Commander," with the result that she sank immediately. The British crew were taken to Vladivostok, and the native crew were put on board another vessel which happened to be passing. Now, my Lords, unless we have been wholly misinformed in regard to the facts of the case, we can come to no other conclusion but that a serious breach of international law has been committed by the captors of the "Knight Commander." Upon no hypothesis of international law can we conceive that a neutral ship, even if it be assumed that her cargo included contraband of war, could be destroyed in this manner upon the mere fiat of the commanding officer of the capturing squadron and without reference to a properly-constituted Prize Court.
  My Lords, it follows that we have considered it our duty to lodge a strong protest against the conduct of those Russian ships, and we have accompanied that protest by a request that orders may be issued to prevent the recurrence of similar incidents. We have also demanded the release of the British crew, which, as I said just now, was taken to Vladivostok. It only remains for me to say that we are confident that these representations will have the desired effect, and that the Russian Government will not hesitate to disavow the conduct of the persons by whom this outrage—for it was an outrage if the facts are as stated—was committed". I hope I may add that the manner in which the Russian Government has dealt with the representations which we have already felt it our duty to make with regard to the other cases justifies us in the hope that the representations which we have now made will not have been made in vain.
  The subject then dropped.

WILD BIRDS PROTECTION ACTS AMENDMENT (ST. KILDA) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I venture to think your Lordships will have no difficulty in agreeing to the Second Reading of this Bill. Though a very small measure, it is of some importance from the naturalists' point of view. Your Lordships will see from the Memorandum attached to the Bill, that by Section 9 of the Wild Birds Protection Act, 1880, it was provided that the operation of that Act should not extend to the Island of St. Kilda, on the ground that a large number of birds which are protected at certain times of the year are necessary to the inhabitants of this remote island for food and other purposes. But there are two birds in the Island, the fork-tailed petrel and the St. Kilda wren, neither of which are of any use to the inhabitants for the purposes I have indicated. The St. Kilda wren is of very great interest to naturalists, because it and the red grouse are the only two birds which are exclusively found in the British Islands. I think it quite possible that the red grouse may be of more general interest to your Lordships than the St. Kilda wren. There is no immediate danger, I think, of the extinction of the red grouse; but the St. Kilda wren is found only in the Island of St. Kilda, and I believe I am right in saying that people passing wider the name of naturalists have for the last season, or, perhaps, longer, taken away every egg which was laid in the Island. Obviously, if this sort of thing is allowed to continue, it must be only a question of a short time before the St. Kilda wren is extinct. It can do no possible harm to have the bird preserved, and I believe that everyone who has any interest at all in natural history will be anxious to see that so interesting, if so small, a specimen should be preserved from extinction. That is the whole purpose of the Bill, and I hope your Lordships will agree to read it a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now Read 2a."—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
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  On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

  DEAN FOREST BILL.
  Amendments reported (according to order).
  THE EARL OF CHESTERFIELD: My Lords, there are certain Amendments standing in my name on the Paper the effect of which is to leave out the words "or tract of coal." These words were inserted in Committee on the Motion of the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill, and I now understand that the noble Marquess is quite prepared, for reasons which he would prefer himself to state to your Lordships, to accept my Amendments to strike out these words.
  Amendments moved—
  "In Clause 4, page 3, line 27, to leave out the words 'or tract of coal'";
  "In Clause 5, page 3, line 38, to leave out the words 'or tract of coal'";
  "In Clause 6, page 3, line 42, to leave out the words 'or tract of coal'";
  "In Clause 9, page 6, lines 15 and 16, to leave out the words 'any tract of coal never galed before the passing of this Act and'";
  "In Clause 10, page 6, line 21, to leave out from the word 'Act' to the end of paragraph (1)."—(The Earl of Chesterfield.)
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, the noble Earl has rightly stated the facts. I think I told your Lordships when I moved the Second Reading that this was an agreed Bill; that is to say, that all the parties interested had come to an agreement as to its provisions. I believe that to have been in the main true as regards the Bill as it was read a second time in this House. When the Bill was in Committee certain Amendments were, on my Motion, introduced into it, and among those Amendments were those which my noble friend opposite now proposes to strike out. I have been informed that, although the Bill as it came from the House of Commons was an agreed measure, to the Amendments to which the noble Earl has called attention a certain amount of exception has been taken; and as there was some kind

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  of understanding that the Bill should be agreed throughout, I am willing, on behalf of the Government, to accept these Amendments.
  On Question, Amendments agreed to.
  Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

  THE FINANCE BILL.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I understand that it is necessary that the Finance Bill should pass through all its stages to-morrow by half-past five in consequence of the arrangements of the other House of Parliament. In those circumstances I would venture to suggest that the House should meet for public business at three o'clock.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I am surprised to hear from the noble Marquess that it is necessary that this Bill should pass through all its stages and receive the Royal Assent by half-past five tomorrow. The noble Marquess courteously informed me of this proposal yesterday, and I do not oppose it personally, as I prefer this arrangement to having to sit to-night, which I understood was the alternative. I do, however, protest against what I call the indignity shown to the House by the presentation of the Bill at such a late period of the session, and the forcing it through all its stages at one short sitting. I shall make that protest to-morrow, and, of course, I have no control over other speakers who, acting within their right, may occupy considerable time, and in that way the object of the noble Marquess may be defeated.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  standing Order No. XXXIX. to be considered To-morrow in order to its being suspended for that day's sitting.
  House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, till tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.