Lords Sitting of 12 July 1904

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Rotherham Corporation Bill. Moved, That the order made on the 14th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 16th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Liverpool and Wigan Churches Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
Torquay Tramways Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Arbroath Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill (No. 140); Dunfermline District Water Order Confirmation Bill (No. 141); Glasgow Corporation (Police) Order Confirmation Bill (No. 142). Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Kintore (E. Kintore)), and reported from the Committee.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9) Bill (No. 143); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill (No. 144). Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order Bill; Hamilton Gas Order Confirmation Bill [H.L.] House in Committee (according to order); Bills reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a on Thursday next.

PETITONS.
  SUPPLY OF ELECTRICITY BILL [H.L.]
  Petition to be heard by counsel against; of the County Council of Lanarkshire; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  INDIA (ACCOUNTS AND ESTIMATES, 1904–1905).
  Explanatory memorandum by the Secretary of State for India.
  FISHERIES (IRELAND).
  Report of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland on the sea and coast fisheries of Ireland, for the year 1903. Part I. General Report.

  REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (GREAT BRITAIN).
  Forty-seventh Report, for the year 1903, of the Inspector of Reformatory and Industrial Schools. Part I. List of schools and detailed reports.
  Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PENAL SERVITUDE ACT, 1891.
  Regulation made by the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland for taking finger-prints, etc., of untried prisoners.
  SEA FISHERIES REGULATION ACT, 1888.
  Order made by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, under the provisions of the above Act, for the variation of the Order creating the North-Eastern Sea Fisheries District.

  PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES) (VISITING COMMITTEES).
  Draft rules proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, under the Prison Acts, 1877 and 1898, with respect to the constitution of the Visiting Committee of Borstal Prison.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  HALL-MARKING OF FOREIGN PLATE BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

  THE PROTECTION OF THE BRITISH FLAG.
  LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, I desire to put to the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question of which I have already given him notice, namely, "What amount of protection is the British flag supposed to confer upon British subjects or others who are on board a ship flying the British flag?" I have put this Question because there is an idea—it may be an erroneous idea—that the officers of a foreign Power cannot arrest anyone on board a British ship and take him from under the British flag unless armed with a letter from either the British Minister or the British Consul authorising them to do so.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): The noble Lord has put a Question to me in very general terms, and he will not be surprised if I reply in equally general language. The best information which I have been able to collect for him is to this effect, that, speaking generally, a British ship on the high seas is regarded as British territory. Persons on board, whether British or foreigners, are regarded as being on British territory, and have the same protection and rights as though they were actually on British territory.

  REGISTRATION OF CLUBS (IRELAND) BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD CLONBROCK: My Lords, in asking your Lordships to read this Bill a second time it will not be necessary for me to take up your time with many remarks. A Bill of the same nature passed last year for Scotland, and the year before for this country, the object
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  of all being to put an end to the so-called clubs which are really formed solely for drinking purposes. It has often happened that a man who has been refused a spirit licence, either on the ground of his career or the unsuitability of his premises, has promptly converted his premises into a club, with the result that there is established an unlicensed, irregular, and ill-conducted place of public entertainment. In order to prevent this state of things this Bill provides that all clubs shall be registered, that the registrar shall be the clerk of petty sessions, who shall enter the certificate of registration on this register, and that any application for registration shall be accompanied by a certificate signed by two magistrates of the district, and by two copies of all the rules of the club; also, notice must be given in a newspaper circulating in the district in which the application is made. These rules are set forth in Clause 4 of the Bill. I need not go through them beyond mentioning that they are practically identical with the rules in the Act relating; to Scotland which was passed last year, with one exception, to which I attach some importance; and which I will mention in a moment.
  Objections can be raised before the Court of petty sessions by the Constabulary or the Metropolitan Police in Dublin, or by anyone resident in the district, on grounds set forth in Clause 5, and the magistrates, after considering both the application and the objections, can either give or withhold the certificate. Again, in the case of a renewal, the same course takes place, the same objections can be made, and the magistrates will then decide whether the club has been properly conducted according to the rules, and will only renew the certificate on those conditions. This Bill has passed the House of Commons with the approval of all Parties—a happy state of things which does not usually obtain in regard to legislation connected with Ireland. I understand that His Majesty's Government propose to insert some Amendments, one of which is of considerable importance, but the others are more or less of a drafting character.
  In the Bill, as it stands, there is an absolute prohibition of the sale of

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  excisable liquor to any member of a club to be consumed off the premises. This is an unnecessarily stringent provision, and it is not in either the Scottish or the English Act. It interferes with the liberty of respectable members of a club who would, for instance, be prevented, when going for a day's fishing or for a day in the country, from taking any alcoholic liquor with them to be consumed, say, with their luncheon. The Amendment which is to be moved by His Majesty's Government has for its object the sanctioning of this sale to members within limited hours—that is, between the hour of eight o'clock in the morning and the hour of ten o'clock at night. I think that is a very reasonable Amendment, and one which ought to be accepted. Although I approve of the terms of the Amendment to be moved on behalf of His Majesty's Government, I intend to move one of my own, which I like better.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Clonbroch.)
  THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, I have only to say, on behalf of the Irish Government, that there is no objection to this Bill. I shall, however, have a few Amendments, many of a merely drafting character, to move besides the one referred to by the noble Lord.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday next.

  CROWN AGENTS AND SHIPPING RATES.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHrose to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies the following Questions:—I. Is it the fact that one of the Crown Agents is a director of the London Assurance Company, and is such appointment in accordance with the regulations of the Civil Service; and why are not the Crown Agents paid a fixed salary like other members of the Civil Service sufficient to preclude their receiving any other emoluments? II. (1) Is the Under-Secretary for the Colonies aware that the British India Steam Navigation Company has recently joined what is known as the "Shipping Ring," namely,
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  that association of shipping firms carrying goods to South Africa which has agreed to maintain a high rate of transport for freights? (2) Is the Under-Secretary aware that at the present time freights between England and South Africa have been raised to about 38s. a ton, whereas from New York to South Africa they are only 12s. a ton? (3) Is the Under-Secretary aware that the result of this raising of the freights levied by all British shipping firms trading with South Africa is such as to cause increased orders for goods to be placed in New York and in other parts of the United States of America, in order to take advantage of the low freight (12s. a ton) from American ports to South Africa, while something of the same kind takes place with regard to Belgium-and Western Germany in connection with the transport from Hamburg? (4) Will the Under-Secretary state the arrangements which have been made by the Crown I Agents in connection with the shipping of Government goods to South Africa during the last six months, giving the names of the firms employed and the rate of freight agreed upon?
  He said: My Lords, in putting the Questions standing in my name on the Paper, I must apologise for their length, but my remarks upon them will be very short. As regards the first Question, the information which I am particularly anxious to elicit is whether or not the Crown Agents are considered a department of the Colonial Office, and whether they therefore come under the regulations and conditions of the Civil Service. If it is true that the Crown Agents are permitted to hold other posts, which I am informed is the case, it is hardly fair that that prohibition should apply to other civil servants, like those connected with the Foreign Office. This is not the occasion, nor the time, to consider the propriety or impropriety of the existing regulations concerning the Civil Service; but I wish to point out, with regard to this directorship of the London Assurance Company, that this company does, so I am informed, do the chief, if not the whole, of the insurance business of the Crown Agents' department. It would appear to me that in the interests of the public service, and in the interests of sound administration, the insurance business

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  of the Crown Agents should be put up to tender, and should be tendered for by a certain number of the first-class insurance agencies. It is not, in itself, satisfactory that a Crown Agent should be a director of any particular insurance company.
  With regard to the question of the rates of freight between this country and South Africa as compared with the freights from New York to South Africa, I may mention that while in some cases the freights between England and South Africa have been raised to about 38s. a ton, the latest information which I have received is that the average rate of freight by the Conference Lines—that is, the shipping ring—is at the present moment 30s. a ton to South African ports from Great Britain, as compared with 12s. a ton from New York to South Africa. I should like to make this other statement in connection with the question of the shipping ring, that I am informed that this ring, which consists almost entirely of British firms, has established, and is now maintaining, a fleet of steamers running between New York and South African ports to carry American manufactures at less than one-half the rate of freight charged from British ports. I beg to put the Questions standing in my name.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOE THE COLONIES (The Duke of MARLBOROUGH): My Lords, the noble Earl has been very considerate in not departing from the Questions he has put down on the Paper and pursuing other matters of Colonial administration which I admit on a previous occasion he could not help following. He has on the present occasion confined himself entirely to the Questions on the Paper, and I am sure the noble Earl would wish that I should reply to them more or less categorically. He asks me, in the first place, whether it is the fact "that one of the Crown Agents is a director of the London Assurance Company. The answer to that is in the affirmative. Then the noble Earl is anxious to know whether such appointment is in accordance with the regulations of the Civil Service. I must explain to the noble Earl that the Crown Agents, technically, are not Civil servants; but I will not press that point
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  to the extent of giving the reasons why. I am in perfect agreement with him that it is unusual—in fact, I do not think it is possible—for members of the Civil Service to hold directorships.
  Then the noble Earl wishes to know whether the Crown Agents are paid a fixed salary. I think I told him when we last debated this question that their salaries were fixed, and could only be altered at the wish, or with the sanction, of the Secretary of State. The fact that one of the Crown Agents (Sir Ernest Blake) holds a directorship is somewhat exceptional. I do not think I need go into the reasons why Sir Ernest Blake holds this appointment. He has conducted his work as a Crown Agent in a most admirable and proper manner, and I do not think the fact that he has been a director of this assurance company has been detrimental in any way to the public service over which he presides. The noble Earl is no doubt aware that this matter has already been brought up in another place, and the Secretary of State, in reply, said he would consider the question. I can assure the noble Earl that the Crown Agent in question has put himself entirely in the hands of the Secretary of State, who is considering this question and will give his decision when the Colonial Office Vote is taken in the House of Commons. In view of the fact that the Colonial Office Vote must be taken at a date not very far distant, and in view, moreover, of the fact that this is a somewhat personal matter, involving the private affairs of a public servant who is under the authority of the Secretary of State, I hope the noble Earl will take my assurance that the matter is being considered, and will agree with me that it would be better and more appropriate that the announcement of the Secretary of State's decision should be given by the Secretary of State himself.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I quite agree with the noble Duke on that point.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: The noble Earl next asks me whether I am aware that the British India Steam Navigation Company has recently joined what is known as the shipping ring. Yes, I can assure the noble Earl that we are

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  perfectly aware of that fact. The other day the noble Earl below the Gangway (Earl Grey) deplored the fact that the Colonial Office had not employed this line, and he called it the "one solitary independent line." We were perfectly aware of the fact that the British India Steam Navigation Company had close commercial relations with the Conference Lines. There is an agreement with the Conference Lines to this effect, that the British India Steam Navigation Company will not deliver any goods from this country to any of the South African ports, except Beira and Delagoa Bay, and I am informed, moreover, that even with regard to these ports the rates are not competitive. It is, therefore, perfectly clear that they are not an independent line. There is no real competition between this country and South Africa, and it would be impossible for us to regard the British India Steam Navigation Company as an independent line, or to contemplate treating them as such as long as they have this agreement with the Conference Lines.
  EARL GREY: Can the noble Duke inform the House of the date of the agreement between the British India Steam Navigation Company and the Conference ring?
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: I am afraid I cannot give the noble Lord the exact date. I rather think it was about twelve months ago; and subsequent to that agreement they made a second one, so I am informed, to the effect that the rates even to Delagoa Bay and Beira are no longer free and independent rates. They have come to a definite understanding with the Conference ring as to what those rates should be. Therefore, I think the noble Earl will admit that the British India Company is not an independent line, but is closely associated with the Conference. The noble Earl who placed these Questions on the Paper next asks whether I am aware that at the present time freights between England and South Africa have been raised, and are higher than the rates between America and South Africa. It is very difficult to form an accurate opinion, because it is so hard to make an accurate comparison. In the first place, we require the whole of the American tariff and the whole of
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  the English tariff, and then it is not a question of average. Three or four different tables or classes are laid down. There are first, second, third, and fourth classes, and goods are classified under these different heads. For instance, rails would be under the lowest class of all—the cheapest class, whilst small parcels of breakable goods would probably come under the most expensive class, so that unless you have before you the different rates and can ascertain to which Schedule a particular article belongs, I submit it is most difficult to make an accurate and proper comparison.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: It is quite true that there are different rates according to different scales, but my point is this, that I have found out that the average difference between the rate3 from this country and from America bears this enormous disproportion.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: The noble Earl may be correct in his average. I am quite unable to say, for I do not know how it is arrived at. It is most difficult and complicated. In addition, you have to take into consideration the cost of landing, lighterage, and sorting, which the shippers have to do. Although I will not challenge the statement of the noble Earl that the American rates are lower than the English rates, yet I do submit that it is most difficult to ascertain the difference between the two rates, because there are so many complicated items which have to be considered. I do not think the noble Earl is correct in Saying that the freights from New York to South Africa are only 12s. a ton. My information is that they vary from 15s. to 17s. 6d. a ton, and I believe I am right in saying that the lowest public rate between this country and South Africa is about 25s. a ton, so the noble Earl will see that the difference between 17s. 6d. and 25s., though I admit it is considerable, is somewhat less than that which he has quoted to your Lordships.
  Then the noble Earl suggests that the result of this raising of freights levied by British shipping firms upon trade between this country and South Africa is to increase the trade between America and South Africa. It may be that the

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  trade between America and South Africa is increasing. No doubt the noble Earl has evidence to support that view, but I do not know that it has increased quite to the extent that he seems to infer. Americans are extremely clever traders, and many articles may be required in South Africa which cannot be obtained in this country, and unless the noble Earl can show me that the trade between America and South Africa in goods similar to those which can be sent from this country has increased, I do not think there is very much to complain of. We cannot object, for instance, to large consignments of grain going from America to the Cape, and if very low freights are quoted, it is clear that the Americans will get the control, or, at any rate, the largest order in that particular commodity.
  THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Will the noble Duke give us the comparative volume of trade between the two countries and South Africa in the last few months?
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: I am afraid I cannot give that, but I know, with regard to the total South African trade, that at present we possess two-thirds and that one-third is enjoyed by America and other countries. As to the low rates which the noble Earl has quoted, can he assure me that the American shippers are making a profit? I am informed that they are losing a considerable amount of money in quoting these low freights, and that they have only done so in order to try and undercut the English trade and eventually get a monopoly. I think it is reasonable to suppose that they will not succeed in their design. The result will be that these low freights, which I do not deny may now exist, will not be at all permanent. I anticipate seeing in a few months, perhaps a year, the 17s. 6d. increased to a higher figure. I cannot quite agree with the statement which the noble Earl makes at the end of his Question, that something of the same kind takes place with regard to Belgium and Western Germany in connection with the transport from Hamburg. My information is that the German lines all belong to the Conference, and that the Tate of freight on the sea is uniform, and
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  is the same from Germany to South Africa as it is from this country. But the reason why the Germans are able to send their goods to South Africa cheaper than we can is this—that the German State railways grant a preferential rate to manufactured goods from the places of manufacture to the port where they are shipped, and consequently, as they gain an advantage on the railway rates, they can naturally quote in South Africa through rates which are more favourable than those which British shipowners can offer, and no doubt that is the explanation why the Germans are pushing forward their trade in South Africa at the present moment.
  The noble Earl was anxious to know what arrangements have been made by the Crown Agents in connection with the shipping of Government goods to South Africa. I cannot give the noble Earl a full statement of the contract which the Crown Agents have made with the Conference lines. It is a very long and complicated document, and I feel sure that the noble Earl would not wish me to occupy the time of the House in presenting it. Moreover, I do not think it would be altogether in the interests of the public service that it should be published in its entirety. I suppose the noble Earl wants to know roughly what agreement has been made in order that he can compare it with the public rates, or assure himself that the Crown Agents have made proper and reasonable terms on behalf o the Colonial Office. We believe that the arrangement which the Crown Agents have made with the Conference lines for the shipment of goods from this country is a reasonable and a good arrangement, and one which compares very favourably with those made in previous years. To give the noble Earl an instance, I may mention that 30,000 tons of rails are to be shipped this year to South African ports at a uniform rate of 16s. per ton. For a somewhat smaller consignment of rails the price is higher, namely, 18s. 6d. a ton. Then arrangements have been made to ship locomotives and building material at 20s. a ton; but the noble Earl will understand that in addition there are, of course, lighterage, sorting, and other charges to be added, these being charges

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  which the Conference lines, and indeed, all shipping lines, make to the public or to the Government.
  The noble Earl asked me to state the names of the firms employed. I presume he means by that the names of the companies in the Conference lines. The names as are follow: The Union Castle Mail Steamship Co., The Clan Line of Steamers, the Bucknall Steamship Line, Ballard, King & Co., John T. Rennie & Co., the Ellerman Harrison Line, and R. P. Houston & Co. With regard to the general question, I do not know whether the noble Earl, in asking for this information, was inclined to consider that this question of freights was directly connected with the business of the Crown Agents. I hope he will not assume that because he can show that the freights between America and the Cape are lower than those between this country and the Cape that has anything to do with the efficiency of the administration of the Crown Agents. All that they are concerned to do is to carry out the orders they receive from the Colonial Office, and we believe that the agreement they have made on behalf of the Colonial Office for the shipment of goods from this country to South Africa is not only a good agreement but one which will give satisfaction to the Governments of the Transvaal and of the Orange River Colony.
  As to the question of getting a better rate for the public, that is entirely outside the province of the Crown Agents. It is a matter which the Government alone could undertake or examine, and it is very doubtful whether it would be wise for the Government to do so. The noble Earl may have read the Report of a Committee of the House of Commons, presided over by Mr. Evelyn Cecil, which went very carefully into the question whether it would be wise for the Government to grant subsidies to any particular steamship lines for the purpose of encouraging trade in any part of the world. They unanimously came to the conclusion that it would be unwise for the Government to do so, and, furthermore, they pointed out that in the case of Continental Powers that had given these subsidies, they did not think their action had been advantageous. I know that the noble Earl is solicitous for the wel-
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  fare of persons trading between this country and South Africa, a feeling which I myself share, and he may be interested to know that the various Governments in South Africa propose Sending representatives to a conference which is to take place in South Africa to discuss this question of the rate of freights. Until we know what the result of that conference is, until we are informed of the wishes and views of the people of South Africa themselves upon this subject, it would be premature for His Majesty's Government to offer any opinion upon Such a difficult and complicated matter.
  EARL GREY: My Lords, I desire to conform in every way to the rules of debate in your Lordships' House, but really the noble Duke makes it extremely difficult for me to do so. He was asked certain Questions on matters of fact, but in replying to those Questions he has, delivered a speech brimming over with controversial matter and matter of opinion. There is no Motion before the House, and I am conscious that I am debarred by the rules which govern debates here from making a speech in answer to the observations which we have just listened to from the noble Duke, I but, with the permission of the House, I will briefly refer to one of the points in the noble Duke's Speech. The noble Duke has twitted me with having misinformed the House on the last occasion when this question was under debate, and with having told your Lordships that the British India Steamship Company was an independent line of steamers so far as Delagoa Bay was concerned. It is true that I made the statement that at that time the company was, as I believed, an independent line to Delagoa Bay. Of course, I was aware that there was an arrangement between that company and the Conference lines with regard to the South African ports, but that arrangement left Delagoa Bay an open field for competition between the British India Steamship Company and the Conference lines.
  I asked His Majesty's Government whether they would support this independent line to Delagoa Bay, the owners of which were more anxious to get a share of the freight consigned to that

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  port than to obtain a subsidy from the Government. The extraordinary answer I received from Lord Onslow was—"How can His Majesty's Government even consider the expediency of shipping freight to Delagoa Bay by a steamship company that does not want to stop at Cape Town or Port Elizabeth"? I did think that was trifling with the business capacity of this House. Delagoa Bay was a port at which the British India Steamship Company, certainly at the beginning of this session, was perfectly entitled to compete with the Conference lines. I want to know whether His Majesty's Government ever gave them an opportunity of tendering for a single ton of cargo to Delagoa Bay. I also want to know whether His Majesty's Government ever gave an opportunity of tendering for a single ton of cargo to Messrs. Houston & Company when that was an independent line. It is my belief that it is the action of the Government in refusing to Support the independent lines which has forced those lines one after the other into the Conference ring. I warned your Lordships in the last debate that if you pursued this policy of only feeding the Conference lines and did not follow the example of the Indian Government in supporting the independent lines, you would force the British India Steamship Company in its turn into the Conference ring. There is a great deal more to be said in answer to the noble Duke, but as we shall, no doubt, have another opportunity of discussing the points raised, I will not longer detain your Lordships now.

  EDUCATION GRANTS.
  EARL BATHURST,who had a Question on the Paper to the following effect: "To ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Board of Education are aware that by the proposed change in the system of grants as announced in Article 31 of the Code for 1904, that on fourteen typical schools, six being town schools of sixteen departments, and eight country schools under the Gloucestershire Education Authority, having 5,049 children on their books, the loss in grant on that number will be £125 19s., or 5.98d. per scholar, and that, if, as it seems
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  reasonable to expect, this result will follow throughout the county, the loss on an average attendance of 48,000 will be £1,196 per annum,"—said: My Lords, I feel that I owe some apology to your Lordships for the length of time this Question has appeared on the Paper in my name. Although it has lain there almost dormant I think it has had a very good effect, for I have been informed that the new Code of grants has already been entirely withdrawn. This Question, therefore, comes before your Lordships rather late in the day. It was my intention, in asking it, to bring to your Lordships' notice the loss that would be entailed on local education authorities by this new scheme, and to ask the Board of Education whether they would postpone its coming into effect for a year, or at least until such time as the local education authorities had been able to consult with one another and with the Board of Education, so that a thoroughly satisfactory Code might be drawn up with full knowledge of what its effect would be. As the Code is now withdrawn, it will be unnecessary for me to enter into any of the figures, of which I have a good many with me, the object of my Question having been achieved. I have, however, brought this subject to your Lordships' notice today, as the noble Marquess the President of the Board of Education very courteously said he was willing to make a statement on the question which, no doubt, will interest many of your Lordships who take an active part in the work of county councils. I beg, in conclusion, to thank the noble Marquess for the consideration he has shown me in making the desired inquiries, and also for withdrawing the Code.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (The Marquess of LONDONDERRY): My Lords, my noble friend has been kind enough to thank me for what he calls the courtesy shown to him. I feel, if I may say so, that the boot is on the other leg. It is I who owe him a debt of gratitude for the considerate manner in which from time to time he has postponed this Question, which, as he has told your Lordships, has been on the Paper for some time. I was very anxious to go fully into this question of the scale of grants

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  before giving my noble friend what I hoped would be an answer of a satisfatory character. As my noble friend has told your Lordships, the scale of grants which we inserted in the Code has now been withdrawn, and I do not, therefore, think it necessary to go at any length into the question of what might or might not have been the result of that scale had it been continued.
  While I do not propose to give your Lordships a long dissertation on the reasons why we inserted this scale of grants in the Code, it may not be out of place if, in a very few words, I place before you our object in introducing it and our reason for withdrawing it. The Board of Education introduced the scale of grants in question in order to complete those changes in the methods of distributing the grant to public elementary schools which were initiated by the block grant established in 1900, which has been operative since 31st March, 1901. We proposed that the scale of grants should be—15s. average attendance for children under five years of age; 20s. average attendance from five to twelve years of age; and 25s. average attendance over twelve years of age; as against what had been the previous giant of 17s. for infants and 22s. for older scholars.
  We considered that in framing this scale we were assisting the classification of children for instruction, and producing, to a certain extent, greater independence of financial considerations. We also considered that with this change it would be possible for inspectors the better to advise us as to improvements. We certainly thought that a higher rate should be paid for scholars who remained at school a year after twelve than should be paid in respect of a year before five. I think your Lordships will acknowledge that the reason for that is a sound one, inasmuch as it is possible for children over twelve years of age to obtain the practical advantages of education to a greater extent in proportion than children under the age of five. We had hoped that this alteration in the scale of grants, this increase in that direction, would have proved an attraction which would have been taken advantage of.
  I do not for a moment controvert what my noble friend stated with regard to
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  there being losses in Some districts and gains in others. In the Question on the Paper the noble Earl goes very closely into the figures and the manner in which his own native county, Gloucestershire, would be affected. Not being prepared to argue this point, inasmuch as the scale has now been withdrawn, I have not gone very carefully into the figures submitted, but I cannot help thinking that if we had gone very closely into those figures we might have found that the state of affairs was not quite so black as my noble friend has painted them. We fully recognised that there would have been losses in some districts, but we had hoped that the gains in others might have been the means of counterbalancing the losses, and that the authorities in those districts would have seen their way for a time to endure the small losses in order to gain the greater benefits which we believed would accrue. But experience has shown that this was not the case, and as we fully recognised that there was considerable opposition in certain districts we did not think we were justified in retaining those clauses in the Code. I do not for one moment admit that we were wrong in inserting them in the first instance. Although we felt bound to withdraw the scale in view of the hardship some districts believed that they would suffer, we still firmly believe in its principle, and I hope that those districts will, in course of time, come to see the advantages of the system.

  THE CASE OF CONSTABLE ANDERSON.
  EARL CADOGAN: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will lay on the Table of the House all official Papers and correspondence connected with the case of Constable Anderson, of the Royal Irish Constabulary. When I gave notice of this Question yesterday, I was careful to explain to the House that it was not my intention to raise a discussion, at all events on this occasion, upon the subject to which it refers. The case of Constable Anderson is one of a peculiar character, and has aroused an immense amount of feeling throughout the country. It has formed the subject of many writings in newspapers and elsewhere, and it has also, I

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  think, caused some disturbance of mind to those who, like your Lordships, are anxious that nothing should be done to exacerbate the feelings between the various religious sects in Ireland. I am not aware of exactly how much information we have before us on this case. I believe that in the shape to Answers to Questions in another place the Chief Secretary has given certain information to the Members of the other House, and I believe also that the particulars of the trial of Constable Anderson are to be obtained, though I confess I have not been able to see them. I venture to put it to your Lordships that if this case is to be considered in this House—and I think it is almost impossible that it should not be raised in some form or other—it would be desirable, not only for our sakes, but for the sake of His Majesty's Government, that all the information that can be conveniently given should be afforded to the House. I am not aware whether the subject will be raised in another place, though I have heard that such is the expectation; but whether that is so or not, I venture to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will lay upon the Table any—I should prefer to say all—official communications which have passed on this subject. I do so with a desire that if the subject is discussed it should be discussed with full and perfect information, which we have certainly not got at present. I should be glad if His Majesty's Government would return a favourable Answer to my Question.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords, any request coming from the noble Earl, who has had so long and so distinguished a connection with the Government of Ireland would, of course, meet with a most ready and cordial response from those who are at present responsible for the Executive administration of that country; but I am informed that there are no documents which they can, in accordance with practice and convenience, lay on the Table of your Lordships' House. But when my noble friend desires to discuss the subject in detail he will find any materials that he may require in the very numerous Questions and Answers in the other House of
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  Parliament. Though I have not myself seen it, there is also, I believe, a report of the evidence that was taken at the inquiry.
  EARL CADOGAN: Which inquiry.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: At the second Court of Inquiry, at which sworn evidence was taken. I am told that it appeared in the Press, and, if so, it is accessible to everyone who desires to see it. I am not in a position to meet my noble friend further; but whenever he deems it right to raise the question, it will, of course, be my duty to be here and to give such explanation as may be desirable.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I fully share the views of the noble Earl opposite—that it is extremely difficult to deal with this subject without more information than apparently we now have. The noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, replied that there is, so far as he knows, sufficient information in Answers to Questions in another place. My noble friend the late Lord-Lieutenant certainly did not seem to think that information sufficient, and then the noble and learned Lord said it was not usual to produce Papers such as those asked for. Every case of this kind must be decided upon its merits, and if this case is one of very great importance, as apparently it is, I think an exception to the usual practice should be made, and if there are any Papers and documents which bear materially upon it I would press His Majesty's Government to produce them. I am told that the Irish newspapers have been full of this case for some time past; and from the leading organs here we know that there is a good deal of feeling on the subject, and that it is a question of some importance. I would, therefore, ask the noble and learned Lord whether in this case he cannot see his way to produce other documents than the one which he says is available bearing materially on this case and putting it properly before the public.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE EOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I am sure nothing is further from the desire of the Irish Government than to suppress any

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  information which can properly be given to the public, and it occurs to me that matters would be rather advanced if the noble Earl would give us an idea of the kind of documents which he thinks might be produced. One important document has been referred to by the noble and learned Lord—namely, that containing the finding of the Court of Inquiry.
  EARL CADOGAN: The evidence.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The evidence of the Court of Inquiry, and, I imagine, the orders passed upon it by the Lord-Lieutenant. I understand that these documents are already public property. If the noble Earl will tell us what other Papers he would desire to possess we will certainly consider his demand for their production.
  EARL SPENCER: I can only speak from past experience in these matters. I have myself held the position of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and, so far as I know, there must have been minutes on this subject—minutes by the Inspector-General of Constabulary, minutes regulating the Court of Inquiry, and minutes which would show how the final decision took place. I understand that there have been several decisions on the point, and there must be Papers on which the final decision, which is, I understand, to reinstate this constable, was based. I am not expressing any shadow of opinion one way or the other; but, in a case of this sort, where there is strong feeling and a great desire to get at the bottom of the matter, I think more official documents than those to which reference has been made ought to be produced.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: I will mention the matter to the Chief Secretary, in whose competence it is, and ascertain if there are any documents which, in his opinion, can, in the interests of the public service, be laid on the Table.
  EARL CADOGAN: It was because I did not in any way wish to embarrass His Majesty's Government that I did not mention any particular document which I wished produced. I should be quite content if His Majesty's Government would agree to afford us any information they
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  can, and lay on the Table of the House such documents as they think can be laid without any injury to the public service.
  House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.