Lords Sitting of 21 April 1904

The LORD HARTISMERE(L. Henniker) sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with:—Richard Jaeger's Patent.
And also the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have not been complied with:—Chippenham Gas; Kirkby-in-Ashfield Urban District Gas; Sheppy Gas; Wellington (Somerset) Gas; North Staffordshire Railway; Norwich Water; Sutton Gas; Croydon Gas; Great Northern Railway; London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway; Ryde Gas. The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire Electric Power Bill [H.L.]. The Lord BALFOUR informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The orders made on the 22nd of February and the 22nd of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
Lothians Electric Power Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 19th of February and the 22nd of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
Ulster Electric Power Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 19th of
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February and the 22nd of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
Bridlington Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 19th of February and the 22nd of March last discharged, and Bill committed.
Gomersal Gas Bill; Bexhill Water and Gas Bill. Read 2a, and committed.
Torquay Tramways Bill. Read 2a, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Great Eastern Railway Bill. Read 2a, and committed.
Barnard Castle Gas Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Preston and Blackburn Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
Chesterfield Corporation (Tramways and Improvements Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

HUTCHESONS' HOSPITAL AND HUTCHESONS' EDUCATIONAL TRUST BILL [H.L.]
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, under ordinary circumstances I should move the Second Reading of this Bill in a couple of sentences, but as my noble friend Lord Camperdown intends to ask your Lordships to adopt the somewhat drastic treatment of refusing the Bill a hearing before a Committee of your Lordships' House, I must briefly state what the history and objects of Hutchesons' Hospital and Hutchesons' Educational Trust are, and also the proposals contained in this Bill. The Hutchesons' Hospital and Hutchesons' Educational Trust is the result of the endowment of certain worthy citizens of Glasgow of two centuries ago. I think there were five or six original endowers. There were

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the brothers George and Thomas Hutcheson in 1640, there were James Blair and David Baxter in 1714 and 1776, and there was William Scott in 1818. All these citizens of Glasgow had the same object—namely, to benefit Glasgow men of their own class. It was not a charity for the benefit of Glasgow as a whole, but for the benefit of the burgesses of Glasgow; and the intention of the founders of the charity was to help their brother burgesses when in need, first by giving them pecuniary assistance, and secondly by giving education to their sons. The proportion in which these funds were to be distributed was, roughly, three-fifths for personal maintenance and two-fifths for the purpose of education. When the scheme first came into operation its method was this—the personal assistance was given to needy burgesses of Glasgow by putting them into a hospital—that is to say—they were lodged and maintained in a sort of glorified workhouse. The education was given by boarding out the boys in different parts of Glasgow. But this system was very soon changed. As early as 165- a school for the boys was established, and by 1780 the hospital system had fallen through, and, instead, pensions were given to the needy burgesses. So things went on, and in 1816 the present boys' school was built, and in 1876 a girls' school was also erected by means of which girls, for the first time, had the benefit of educational assistance under the charity. Then, in the year 1872, the Hutchesons' Hospital Act was passed which allocated the funds of the trust in the proportion of about half to pensions and half to education. In 1882 came the Scottish Educational Endowment Act, and, as a consequence of that, the Scottish Educational Endowment Commission, of which my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh was President, in 1885 prepared a scheme for the administration of this trust, by which the charge of education was taken out of the hands of the old body which had complete control—namely, the patrons —and given to a new body called the governors. It was decided that two-fifths of the funds coming from the Hutcheson, Blair, and Baxter endowments should go to education, and three-fifths to pensions.
Let me now say a word as to the two bodies who manage the funds. First, there are the patrons. They consist of
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the whole of the Corporation of Glasgow, some seventy-seven persons. Added to them are twenty-two outsiders, made up of the seven ministers of the Established Churches in the old city parishes of Glasgow, and certain persons appointed by outside bodies, of whom the most important are the Merchants House and the Trades House in Glasgow, making altogether a body of ninety-nine. It is due to this body of patrons that the funds have been so admirably managed that from an endowment, originally of a few thousand pounds, the annual income has grown to £19,000 a year. I may say that the patrons still have complete control of the pension part of the scheme, and also complete management of the general fund. The patrons are unanimously in favour of this Bill. I come now to the governors, who, under the scheme of 1885, were given the charge and the management of the educational part of this Trust. They, too, are a very representative body. They consist of twenty-one persons, eleven being nominated by the Corporation of the City of Glasgow, one by the University of the City of Glasgow, two by the city ministers of Glasgow, one by the Merchants House in Glasgow, one by the Trades House in Glasgow, three by the School Board of Glasgow, and two taken from ministers of other denominations than that of the Established Church, who have churches within the district affected. I think your Lordships will agree that that is a thoroughly representative body. Of the twenty-one gentlemen who form the body of governors, fourteen are in favour of the Bill as it stands. There are six against it, and there is one, a very distinguished member of the Glasgow School Board—Sir John Cuthbertson—who is neutral. You are, therefore, in this position. The patrons are unanimously in favour of this Bill, and the governors are in favour of it in a majority of more than two to one.
The first object of the Bill is to enable the governors to put an end to the schools that are now carried on under the Trust—the boys' school and the girls' school. That may seem, at first blush, rather a strong order, but I will show that it is not so. Since 1885 the whole circumstances of education in Glasgow have totally changed. You have had compulsory free education introduced, you have had

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greatly increased grants for education, and there is also this other point, that the situation in which the present boys' school under this Trust is placed in Glasgow is one that has had a bad effect on the success of the school. Whereas in the year 1885 there were on the boys' side 1,825 fee-paying scholars, there are now only 164; and whereas in 1885 there were on the girls' side 562 fee-paying scholars, there are now only 216; and it is calculated that the average course of education of each of the scholars in these schools amounts to no less than £13 a year, as against £2 18s. 3½d. a head for the scholars in the elementary schools of the School Board of Glasgow, and £9 11s. 4d. for the scholars in the higher grade schools in Glasgow. From that it is very evident that the education given to the children in these schools is exceedingly expensive, and that the money that is now devoted to these schools could be much more usefully and profitably expended in some other direction for the purposes of education. That idea is borne out by the action of the School Board for Glasgow itself, for last year that Board accepted the propositions now made in the Bill, and consented to take over the schools of the Hutchesons' Hospital. Now they have resiled from that position, and say they will not take over the schools; but the reason they give for that is, that already in the public schools of Glasgow there is ample accommodation for all the scholars likely to be brought forward, and that they have already under their jurisdiction sufficient room for ail the scholars to be set free supposing these schools were closed. In that respect the action of the School Board itself is an argument in favour of the proposition of the governors.
As I have said, roughly speaking the proportion given to pensions and education in the past has been three-fifths to two-fifths. The proposal now made by the governors is, taking the annual income at the present moment at £19,000, to stereotype the sum of £7,000 for education, and they propose that the rest shall be given for pension purposes under the original Trust. But there is nothing final about the £7,000. If a Committee of your Lordships' House thought that a larger proportion should be given, or that the proportion should be smaller, it would
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be perfectly open to the Committee to make any such alteration, and the promoters of the Bill would be perfectly willing to accept it. In consequence of the opposition of the School Board, a number of the clauses now in the Bill will have to be struck out, because there is no longer any reason for an arrangement between the two bodies as to the disposition of these schools. The Bill goes on to lay down the various objects to which this £7,000 a year is to be applied: but again I say there is nothing final in these proposals. They are proposals that a Committee of your Lordships' House could well investigate and upon which the Committee could well express an opinion. When my noble friend the Acting Chairman of Committees brought this Bill before the House the other day my noble friend Lord Camperdown took exception to it on two grounds—in the first place, because it was too soon after the 1885 settlement. I admit that it is soon after that settlement, but the change in the educational position of Glasgow since 1885 has been very goat, and what was suitable in that year, and what was the best course then, need not necessarily be, suitable or the best course to-day. Therefore I think that argument is not a sound one, and that it is a perfectly fair thing that a further revision of the situation should take place. The other point made by my noble friend was that it was inexpedient to deal with this question now because there was a Scottish Education Bill about to be introduced. That Bill has now been brought forward, and I have no doubt His Majesty's Government before the end of the session will have passed it, but I say that that very fact is an additional argument in favour of a new and final settlement of the position of this Trust.
The Scottish Education Bill in no way deals with educational endowments. The Secretary for Scotland, in introducing the Bill, especially disclaimed any intention of dealing with endowments in any way whatever. Undoubtedly the Bill will bring about a new state of affairs. The Glasgow School Board, under the Bill, is retained with a larger area. In the case of a fund like this, which must necessarily be a fluctuating fund, it seems to me that in the interests of education

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itself it is desirable that a fixed sum should be applied year by year for the purpose of education in Glasgow. It must be remembered that you are departing, to some extent, from the intention of the endowers of this fund by applying any part of it to the education of children in Glasgow generally. The money will be applied for the benefit of the whole of the young people of Glasgow, and of a very much enlarged Glasgow. I argue, then, that it is not too soon to deal with this matter, and, indeed, that the introduction of the Scottish Education Bill is a good reason for a revision and a final settlement of this question, and for fixing a definite sum which shall, year by year, be applied for educational purposes to the best possible effect. I think it is desirable that the methods in which that money is to be applied should be fixed in some way and should be left to be managed and altered from time to time, as may be necessary, by the authorities controlling this particular Trust and the education authority of Glasgow itself. I ask your Lordships to read this Bill a second time and send it to a Committee. There will be several questions that will come before the Committee. The first question the Committee will have to decide will be, Is it desirable that the schools of the Hutchesons' Trust should be abolished and be merged in the general school system of Glasgow? The second question will be, Is it desirable that the sum to be applied annually from this Trust for education in Glasgow should be a fixed sum? The Bill proposes £7,000, and the Committee will have to decide whether it shall be that sum, or whether the amount shall be higher or lower. Finally, the Committee will have to decide whether the methods by which it is proposed to apply the funds are good ones, and, if not, in what way they can be amended. These are all subjects with which a Committee of your Lordships' House are well able to deal, and I trust you will give the Bill a Second Reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Tweedmouth.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My noble friend Lord Tweedmouth has gone in some detail into the merits of the Bill,
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as perhaps was necessary in view of the fact that I have given notice to move its rejection. I hope your Lordships will excuse me if I do not follow him into those details, but lay before your Lordships in a very few words the reasons for the Amendment which I have placed on the Paper. It is only necessary for me to go back as far as the year 1885. In that year the Commissioners, of whom I think Lord Balfour of Burleigh was Chairman, made a scheme for Hutchesons' Hospital under the Act of 1882; and, to put it shortly, the result was this: they decided that for the future two-thirds of the income of the hospital was to be applied to education and the remainder to pensions. A body of twenty-one governors was appointed to administer this Trust, and the majority of those governors—namely, I think, fourteen out of the twenty-one—are now approaching this House to secure an alteration of the Trust and the terms of the scheme which they were only appointed to administer. In reality the governors, as such, have nothing more to do with the constitution of the Trust under which they work than any other members of the community. My first objection to the Bill is this, that it is an attempt by a private Bill to alter a public Act of Parliament. I am not going to argue that question now, but it is one which is open to a great deal of argument. The next objection to the Bill is that it proposes to sell the schools of the Trust. Since the Bill was introduced it has been entirely altered. The Bill as presented to this House set out that they had made an agreement with the School Board for Glasgow to take over the schools. For reasons with which it is not necessary to trouble your Lordships, the, School Board for Glasgow have changed their mind, and, so far from assenting to this Bill, they are opposing it.
I own that when I first looked into the matter it appeared to me that if the governors wished to alter the Trust they ought to have adopted a course which was laid down in the Act of Parliament and have appealed to the Court of Session. The Court of Session is in Scotland; the majority and the minority of the governors are resident in the neighbourhood; and the matter might have been

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inquired into by the Court of Session. But, on looking into the matter further, I must say it does appear that this is not an amendment or an alteration of the scheme, which could be dealt with in that way, but an absolutely new scheme, and therefore I do not think that the argument that they ought not to have applied to Parliament would fairly apply. But, at all events. I think your Lordships will be of opinion that if this Bill is to go to a Committee, the opinion of those governors who are opposed to it ought to be placed before the Committee quite as strongly and on the same terms as those of the governors who are in favour of it. As a matter of fact, so doubtful is the procedure which is proposed by this Bill that the governors have no right whatever to apply the funds of the Trust to the promotion of this Bill. I have looked at the Bill to see how it was proposed to provide for the costs. The Bill is promoted by fourteen of the governors, and they have inserted a clause empowering them to pay their own expenses out of the funds of the Trust, which they were really appointed only to administer, and which they have no special right, any more than anybody else, to propose to alter. If it is right that their views should be placed before the Committee and that their expenses should be paid, I hope the House will be of opinion that the views of those who are opposed to the Bill should also be placed before the Committee and that their expenses should be paid in a similar manner.
I know that your Lordships are always unwilling to give instructions to a Committee, but I think this is a matter which is really of very considerable importance, and in which an exception should be made. If the views of the minority are not placed before the Committee, I do not see how the Committee will be able to judge as to the merits of the opposition. In the Scottish Education Bill, which is now before Parliament, there is a clause dealing with the transfer of schools, under which this transfer might be carried out, provided that the School Board agreed to accept the schools. I do not, however, wish to go into that now. What I would suggest to the House is that the attention of the Committee should be called to this point. I am not aware that the minority
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of governors have up to the present time petitioned against the Bill. I only know one of them, Professor Ramsey, and I do not know whether he and the other governors in the minority have or have not petitioned against the Bill, but I think it is very likely they will not be willing to incur personally the cost of opposing the Bill. The result will be that the Committee will not be placed in possession of their views. I suggest that if the costs of the majority of the governors are to be paid out of the funds of the Trust it is only fair that the costs of the minority should be so paid. I do not know what the opinion of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh may be with regard to a suggestion of that kind, but if he were in favour of its being in some way brought before the Committee then I think that in all the circumstances I should not be inclined to press my opposition to the Bill to the extent of refusing it a Second Reading. I formally move my Amendment until I hear what opinion may be expressed on this point.
Amendment moved—
"To leave out the word 'now,' and add at the end of the Motion the words 'this day six months.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
THE EARL OF KINTORE: My Lords, perhaps it would be convenient that I should state in a word or two the view of His Majesty's Government with regard to this Bill. I hope I am justified in thinking, from the remarks that have just fallen from my noble friend, that it is not his intention to persist in his Amendment for the summary rejection of the Bill by refusing it a Second Reading. The Bill, no doubt, does offer several points for criticism, and it is not one to which it is possible to pledge the Government's support. At the same time, the Government do not wish to go so far as to support its rejection on Second Reading. They think that the better and more convenient course is not to oppose the Second Reading, but, reserving full freedom of action at later stages, to agree to the Second Reading, and send the Bill upstairs to a Committee.
THE ACTING CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My Lords, I think it is probable that, holding the position which I do at the present

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time, the House will not unnaturally expect a few words of guidance on this matter from me. Perhaps I ought just to say a word as to the position in which I, personally, am placed, as both the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of this Bill, and the noble Earl who moved its rejection, have stated that it is in fact a Bill for the alteration of a decision which was come to by a Commission some fifteen or twenty years ago, over which I had the honour to preside. It was, I may mention, the first Chairmanship which I had the pleasure of occupying, and it was given to mo by the noble Earl opposite, the Leader of the Opposition, under circumstances which he will, no doubt, very well recollect. When this Bill was presented last year at the Scottish Office in the form of an Order under the Private Bill (Scotland) Procedure Act, I agreed with my noble friend Lord Morley, the Chairman of Committees of your Lordships' House, that, owing to the circumstances in which I was placed, and the manner in which I had been identified with the previous decision, it would be Letter that it should not go forward under that Act, but should come to Parliament TO be decided here, and that the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees should exercise his discretion over the formal stages in regard to it. It is rather by an irony of circumstances, that the very-state of things, which I desired to avoid, has now come about, and I find myself, by the action which I then took, in the very position which I did not want to be in.
The noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of the Bill has so fairly and satisfactorily stated the circumstances that I do not think I need say a word about the narrative or the reasons for which this Bill comes before us. As has been stated, the object of the Bill is to effect certain very important changes in the destination of Hutchesons' Fund. It is to end the schools, to alter the division of the funds between the charitable and the educational sides of the Trust, and to alter the allocation of the funds, whatever they may be, which are hereafter to be devoted to educational purposes. The noble Lord who moved the rejection of the Bill seemed to suggest that this ought to have been
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effected by an appeal to the Court for Session in Scotland.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I beg the noble Lord's pardon. I said I at first thought that, but that on further consideration, owing to the revolutionary nature of the Bill, I could not urge that argument.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: That was exactly the point I was going to make. These changes are so revolutionary that I do not think the Court, under the powers given to it by the statute, would have consented to undertake such a revision. The noble Lord also said it was wrong that the schools should be sold, and seemed to animadvert upon the changes which have been made in the Bill. I do not think there is much in that point, because the School Board was the first to change its position. The School Board was, I think, perfectly justified in changing its position if it liked, because it is a different Board from the one which was in office when this proposal was first brought forward. With regard to the point which my noble friend. Lord Camper down, made as to the expenses of the minority, I think that is a perfectly fair subject for consideration by the Committee, and I have no doubt that it will be considered by them. I have made inquiry to-day, and I find that the minority of the trustees have presented a petition and will, therefore, be able to put their views before the Committee. I do not think this is the proper time to discuss the merits of this proposal, and I do not propose, therefore, to go into the advantages or disadvantages of it. If I have an opinion, I am bound to say that, at any rate as regards some of the changes, I think they go too far, and I think they are too revolutionary; but I cannot take up the position, after a lapse of nearly twenty years since the present arrangement was made, and after the changes which have been brought about in secondary and higher education in Scotland, that there is no case for some change. Personally, I should deprecate very much the changing of the proportion to be devoted to pensions and to education. But, although my opinion is in that direction, I am not prepared, as Chairman of Committees, to suggest to

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Parliament that that is a matter so contrary to the procedure and practice of Parliament that it should not be discussed if the majority of the trustees wish to have discussion upon it. If I have any great regret, it is that a considerable portion of the funds of this charitable institution should be spent in a contest of this kind, and to that extent I regret the action of the majority of the patrons.
I am able to say that if your Lordships consent to give the Bill a Second Reading there is no fear whatever that the points at issue will not be fully discussed upstairs. Seven petitions have been presented against the Bill, and, in all the circumstances, I think we may rely upon it that the matter will be fully discussed before the tribunal to whom I hope your Lordships will send it. Perhaps I ought to say that I have received a paper to-day from the promoters of the Bill to the effect that it is intended to oppose the locus standi of some of the bodies who have petitioned against the Bill. I am satisfied that most, if not all, of these bodies are interested in effect in this matter, and I am bound to say that if it should turn out that, according to the Rules of Parliament, narrowly construed, material interests such as these are shut out from a hearing upstairs, my attitude towards the Bill would be very greatly changed. Undoubtedly, great changes are proposed, and it is only right that they should be fully discussed in the light of all the information and in the presence of, and by, those who will be most affected by the ultimate decision come to. On the whole, I think it would be wise not to interfere in this case with the ordinary practice of this House, but to send this Rill to a tribunal upstairs, where, in the light of full information, what I believe will be a just and a fair decision will be come to. On the whole, therefore, I support the Second Reading.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Would the noble Lord state his opinion with regard to help being given to the minority to bring their case forward?
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I think the usual practice is, that the matter should be brought before the Committee. If the Committee thought that a minority
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had acted frivolously or without due cause, they would probably not order their expenses to be paid; but, if they think, as I think it is probable that in this ease they will, that substantial interests are affected, and that these highly-respectable and influential gentlemen have not acted frivolously, I should personally express the hope that consideration would be given to the point raised by Lord Camper down. That is a matter which can safely be left to the good sense of the Committee.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I am sure those who are supporting this Bill will agree with what has just been said by Lord Balfour, and I hope that, in the circumstances, my noble friend will withdraw his Amendment for the rejection of the Bill.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: In view of the statement that has been made that the minority will have an opportunity of stating their views, I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 3138. Denmark (Iceland); No. 3139. Servia.
  JUDICIAL STATISTICS (ENGLAND AND WALES) 1902 (PART II. CIVIL JUDICIAL STATISTICS).
  Statistics relating to the Judical Committee of the Privy Council, the House of Lords, the Supreme Court of Judicature, County Courts and other Civil Courts, edited by Sir John Macdonell, C.B., LL.D., a Master of the Supreme Court,

  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Report of a public inquiry held under Sections 16 and 23 of the Education

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  Act, 1902, and Section 73 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, by A. T. Lawrence, K.C., at Carmarthen, on the 24th and 25th of March, 1904.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SEA FISHERIES BILL [H.L.]
  The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow, and Bill to be printed as amended in Committee of the Whole House. (No. 45.)
  ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read la; to be printed; and to be read 2a Tomorrow (The Viscount Hutchinson [E. Donoughmore.]) (No. 46.)

  OUTDOOR RELIEF (FRIENDLY SOCIETIES) BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, in 1894 the Legislature legalised a practice already adopted by a great number of hoards of guardians of giving outdoor relief to applicants without taking into consideration money that they received from friendly societies. What this Bill proposes to do is to make that practice universal, but only as regards sick pay, and only as regards sick pay up to 5s. a week. This Bill is well known to many of your Lordships. It. has twice passed the House of Commons unopposed, and it has twice, I regret to say, been rejected by your Lordships; but last year it was only rejected by the very narrow majority of fifty-seven to fifty, and I think I am entitled to say that the opposition on that occasion was not either very fierce or very determined. On that occasion my noble and learned friend Lord James of Hereford was unfortunate enough to be opposed by Lord Northbrook, who led the opposition to this Bill, but he merely opposed the Bill on one point. He expressed the opinion that there was not sufficient information to hand as to the working of the Act of 1894. Lord James was unfortunately opposed also by the noble Earl the Leader of the
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  Opposition on the same ground, but I hope that the Bill will on this occasion be read a second time, as both these noble Earls will, I understand, explain to the House that they do not intend to continue their opposition to the measure.
  The attitude of the supporters of the Bill has always been that there is no necessity for more information than we have got. Since the year 1894 we have had experience of the working of the Act of that year, and our experience has been this, that although, no doubt, there have been some differences of opinion between boards of guardians, still, in the main, those boards have availed themselves of the option given them by the Act of 1894. Surely, as my noble and learned friend said last year, uniformity is desirable in the matter of the administration of Poor Law relief in regard to friendly societies. Under the present system, as my noble and learned friend explained, whether a man does, or does not, get any benefit from sick pay from a friendly society depends rather upon geography than upon the justice of his case. It does not only depend on the particular board of guardians that may have to settle this question, but, where the board is equally divided in opinion, it depends on whether or not certain guardians happen to be present at the particular meeting which settles the case. Therefore you may say that whether a man gets the advantage of his thrift in subscribing to a friendly society or not, depends not only on geography, but also on the chance presence or absence of a particular member of a board of guardians. That is to say, at present the matter is a mere lottery. What the friendly societies say is this, that there is no sufficient inducement for a man to subscribe to friendly societies in order that he may obtain sick pay. He does not know whether he will obtain any benefit. He may obtain a benefit, but he may not.
  The noble and learned Lord put the case last year of two men talking over the matter. One of them said, "I am going to pay into a friendly society and I shall get sick pay of 5s. a week if I am ill," and the other man replied, "I shall not pay

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  in, because when I'm ill the board of guardians may take into consideration the fact that I get 5s. a week from a friendly society and give me no more. That is to say, if you pay into the friendly society and I do not, we may both get exactly the same when we are ill." Certain objections have been taken to this Bill. It has been objected to on the ground that it, in point of fact, proposed a revolution in the principle of the Poor Law, and that it is inconsistent with the Statute of Elizabeth, which enacts that the only claim to outdoor relief is destitution. Whether this Bill is or is not consistent with the Act of Elizabeth does not seem to me to be before your Lord ships to-day, because, if it was wrong to say that thrift ought to be taken into consideration in granting outdoor relief, that wrong was done by the Act of 1894. Again, if it is said, as it is said, Why do you give special privileges to friendly societies over other forms of thirift? The answer to that is that that preference has already been given by the Act of 1894. Moreover, it appear to me that even on its merits there is a great deal to be said for special privileges being given to friendly societies, for they save an untold amount in the rates through the thrift they inculcate among the poor. If you pass this Bill more people will pay into these friendly societies, and consequently fewer of them will come upon the rates.
  I would again emphasise the fact that this is merely a Bill to deal with sick pay which stands on a totally different footing from any other kind of relief granted by the friendly societies. The difference was very well put by Sir Hugh Owen, when he was advising the Government to bring in the Bill of 1894. He said—
  "Sick pay is in some degree destined for the restoration of the health of the subscriber."
  That is a very special and important reason why you should be specially indulgent in the matter of sick pay. Boards of guardians can give what is necessary, but not more than is necessary, and the difference between what the board of guardians give and the 5s. that the man may get out of his friendly society is this, that the extra 5s. will be just about what he would have to pay for a nurse. The result is that a man who subscribes to a friendly society has
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  the advantage himself of getting better sooner and more completely, and that is an advantage which is shared not only by himself and his family but by the community generally. This Bill legalises nothing that was not legal before.
  In connection with this Bill I have two great grounds for regret. First of all, I regret very much that the Bill was not introduced again by my noble and learned friend opposite, and I regret still more that it was not made a Government measure, as it clearly ought to have been, because the Government have over and over again blessed the Bill. Last year, in the House of Commons, Mr. Walter Long, representing the Local Government Board, said—
  "The Bill has been considered by my Department, which is responsible for the Poor Law administration of the country. It has been carefully examined by experts and men of great experience in the administration of the Poor Law, and I have most carefully considered it myself. In addition to that the Bill was most carefully considered by the Cabinet as a whole, and it was decided that it was worthy of the support of this House, and one which we sincerely hope to see accepted, and placed upon the Statute-book."
  This year we have got further than the opinion even of the President of the Local Government Board. Speaking on 23rd March, the Prime Minister, referring to this measure, said—
  "The Government entirely approve of the Bill and will do all they can to further its progress."
  I am told that I have made an error in tactics in introducing this Bill first in the House of Lords. If I have committed that error I am not solely responsible, because I am acting according to the wishes of the friendly societies. And, my Lords, I think there is a good deal to be said for the point of view that the friendly societies take up. They are disappointed—deeply disappointed—that your Lordships should have twice refused to pass a Bill that had practically the unanimous assent of the House of Commons. Notwithstanding that disappointment they desire to treat your Lordships' House with the utmost respect and to be perfectly conciliatory in this matter, and they have deemed it more courteous not to press a Bill again upon your Lordships through the House of Commons. What good would that

  815
  do? Your Lordships know the opinion of the House of Commons upon it. It would add nothing to its authority to send it up again through the House of Commons, and the friendly societies think it better to ask your Lordships' House on its own initiative to give the Bill a Second Reading, They are confident that this House will give all the weight that ought to be attached to a Bill that comes up, as this Bill has come up, twice from the House of Commons. It is no use accentuating what your Lordships know perfectly well already. In conclusion, therefore, let me express my very earnest hope that at the third time of asking your Lordships will be pleased to give a Second Reading to this Bill, and will not again bitterly disappoint the hopes of 4,000,000 of the most thrifty and best-conducted working people of this country.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Monkswell.)
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, on two occasions I ventured to think it my duty to present to your Lordships certain reasons why I thought that further information was necessary before your Lordships agreed to the Bill, the Second Reading of which has just been moved, and I think perhaps it is right that I should state at once what course I propose to take on the present occasion. The noble Lord has indicated to your Lordships that the Prime Minister has distinctly stated in another place that it was his intention to use the whole power of the Government in order to support this Bill. That being so, it would be putting your Lordships' to unnecessary inconvenience if I were to bring forward a Motion for its rejection in this House. I know the power of the Government in your Lordships' House, and I think it would be wrong for me to take that course. But in arriving at that conclusion I am bound to say that nothing in the speech of the noble Lord has in any way altered the opinion which I have held regarding the Bill.
  I wish also to say a few words in defence of the conduct of your Lordships with regard to this Bill, because that
  816
  conduct has been partly impugned by the noble Lord who has just sat down, and it has been freely attacked outride this House. In the year 1894, as the noble Lord has said, a Bill was introduced into this House by a private Member to legalise the proceedings of boards of guardians in not taking into consideration, in awarding outdoor relief, the receipts of the applicants from friendly societies. That Bill gave a discretionary power to boards of guardians, and when it was introduced the noble Lord who was then Leader of the House—my noble friend the late Earl of Kimberley—said he thought the Bill was wrong in principle, but at the same time it was desirable to pass it in order to legalise a practice which had grown up. The noble Lord, the then Leader of the Opposition—the late Marquess of Salisbury—spoke still more strongly on the matter. Lord Salisbury said on that occasion that, in his opinion, the discretion given to boards of guardians should be absolute. Therefore the Act of 1894 passed your Lordships' House on the distinct understanding that the concession given in respect to members of friendly societies should be discretionary, and should be considered by the guardians when they came to deal with each individual case. That is the position of your Lordships in respect to the Act of 1894. That Act had only been passed one year when there was a very important Royal Commission on the Aged Poor, which made the following recommendation—
  "We are of opinion that it would be undesirable to interfere, either by statute or Order, with the discretion now vested in boards of guardians as to the manner in which relief should be given, since it is in our view of essential importance that guardians should have power to deal on its merits with each individual case."
  That was in 1895. Notwithstanding that, the Bill was passed on the distinct understanding that the power should be discretionary. Notwithstanding the, opinion of that Commission, from that day to this there has been a constant attempt on the part of the noble Lord and others with whom he has acted in this matter to change that principle, and to make it compulsory upon boards of guardians not to consider the friendly society sick pay of any applicant for outdoor relief.

  817
  The first compulsory Bill was introduced only two years after the discretionary Bill was passed. For several years those attempts were opposed by the Government.† Suddenly, however, a change took place. In 1901 there was a qualified support of the Bill on the part of the Local Government Board in the House of Commons, and when the Bill came up to this House the matter was considered to be an open question. Noble Lords were not to take it as a Party question, and it was intimated that Members could vote according to their lights. On that occasion there was a majority of two to one against the Bill—the same Bill as that which the noble Lord has now introduced. Last year the Bill again came up to this House and we decided that we would not attempt to throw it out. but we thought we had a right to receive some further information before being asked to pass a Bill of this importance.
  I do not think that any of your Lordships will deny that to pass an Act absolutely debarring boards of guardians from considering the merits of individual cases that come before them for relief is a great and substantial change in the principle of the Poor Law. That being so, we desired that a Select Committee might be appointed to hear the reasons that friendly societies had to give for introducing the Bill, and to see whether they could establish the ground they took—namely, that sufficient consideration was not given to members of friendly societies by the different boards of guardians. The division which took place last year on the Bill was considered to be a division on the question whether there should or should not be a Select Committee for that purpose. A small majority was in favour of a Committee, and it became my duty to ask your Lordships to agree to the appointment of a Committee. I regret to remind your Lordships that the friendly societies intimated, through my noble friend Lord Portsmouth, that they would decline to give any evidence before the Committee, even if your Lordships were to appoint it. In those circumstances, I considered that it would have
  † Parliamentary Debates [Fourth Series], page 1252.
  818
  been futile to ask your Lordships to agree to the appointment of a Committee. That is how the question stands in regard to your Lordships' House, and I do not think anyone can say that your Lordships have treated this question otherwise than with great calmness and with great consideration, and I assert that in no speech that has been made on this Bill, although we doubted its propriety, has a word been said against the great value of friendly societies. I have myself on several occasions in this House and elsewhere expressed myself in favour of those societies. As far as your Lordships' position in the matter is concerned, I think it would be exceedingly unjust to charge your Lordships with any hostility to friendly societies in consequence of the manner in which you have treated the Bill. The noble Lord who moved the Second Reading said that in his opinion it is right to give a preference to friendly societies. That is just one of the questions upon which inquiry is absolutely necessary. Your Lordships are aware of the mass of savings of the people of this country quite apart from friendly societies. I find that the sum of £322,000,000 represents the funds of provident societies and Post Office and other savings banks. If we take £30,000,000 from that for the money in the Post Office Savings Bank, which may be represented as invested by people of the better class, there is a sum of nearly £300,000,000 remaining. Would your Lordships be surprised to know that out of these savings there is only some £38,000,000 in the friendly societies? I doubt whether it is right or just, if this is a proper measure, that those who have savings of other kinds should not have exactly the same privilege as those with savings in the friendly societies.
  LORD MONKSWELL: My argument was that that preference had been already given in 1894, and that it was not given for the first time by this Bill.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: At any rate this measure raises a question of very great difficulty and importance, and one which in the opinion of those of us who supported the appointment of a Committee should be inquired into. The

  819
  capital of the friendly societies is probably not a fifth of the whole of the savings of the people of this country, and I say that it is a question for inquiry whether other savings should not be treated in a similar manner. But as the friendly societies declined to give evidence before this Committee we were precluded from receiving the information which, in my opinion, was absolutely necessary before such a measure should be passed. The noble Lord also gave as a reason for this Bill that there should be a uniform practice throughout the country. We have always asked the friendly societies to produce any evidence of cases in which boards of guardians have not given sufficient consideration, since the Act of 1894, to savings invested in friendly societies. Not a single case of hardship of that kind has been brought forward, and we thought that as they had not chosen to produce any such case there ought to be inquiry so that your Lordships might be satisfied that there was some justification for an alteration of such great importance in the administration of the Poor Law. The noble Lord said that friendly societies were of opinion that the present condition of the law deterred persons from becoming members of those societies. He stated that when a man joined a friendly society he wanted to know whether his sick pay would be considered supposing he had the misfortune to apply for parish relief. I have to say, in answer to that statement, that that is not the opinion of the friendly societies. The friendly societies, in their statement which was put before your Lordships last year, distinctly denied that anyone joined a friendly society with the view of coming on the parish for parochial relief. The reason a man joined a friendly society was, they said, that he should not come on the parish. These are the words of the friendly societies in the paper sent the your Lordships in defence of this Bill—
  "The persons chiefly affected joined the societies many years ago. The very object they had in joining was to avoid the necessity in their old age of applying to the hoard of guardians."
  they went on to say—
  "We are in a position to assert that those who join friendly societies at the present time are actuated by the same motives."
  820
  Therefore the idea put forward now, that the administration of the Act of 1894 by boards of guardians can be any deterrent to persons joining friendly societies, appears to be answered by the statement of the friendly societies themselves. I consider that thrift and support out of taxes or rates ought to be separate altogether one from the other, and that is another reason for the view we took last year that this matter should be inquired into. I should not have adduced any arguments against the Bill, it not being my intention to ask your Lordships to refuse it a Second Reading, had it not been for the speech of the noble Lord in introducing it. In one observation of the noble Lord I entirely concur. I refer to his statement that a Bill of this importance should have been introduced by His Majesty's Government and not by a private Member. I can conceive nothing worse than amending the Poor Law in very important parts by Bills brought in by private Members. I venture to submit to His Majesty's Government that this is a matter of great public importance, and one deserving of inquiry. It cannot stand where it is. It will be followed by other Bills of a similar kind. The whole question is one which should be looked into by His Majesty's Government, and while I protest again against the principle of the Bill, I venture to add to that protest an earnest appeal to His Majesty's Government not to leave this important question to private Members, but to deal boldly themselves with a question which vitally affects the interests of the people of this country.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (the Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I will not take up the time of the House by repeating the arguments which have been already used this evening, but I wish to confirm what has already been said during the course of this discussion—namely, that in the view of His Majesty's Government it is desirable that this Bill should be read a second time. If any doubt arises in our minds on this occasion, that doubt is due not so much to the contents of the Bill as to the circumstances in which it has been introduced. I understand that two other Bills dealing

  821
  with the same subject, and presumably promoted from the same source, are before the other House of Parliament. The noble Lord who moved the Second Reading of this Bill gave us a very considerate explanation of the reason for which a third Bill was introduced to your Lordships' House this evening. Whether there are other more obscure reasons, possibly of a strategical character, which have led to the course which has been followed, I will not pause to inquire. The subject is perhaps not one into which it would be in accordance with the rules of order that I should enter. As to the Bill itself, it seems to us that the question of principle has been long ago disposed of—I mean by the Bill of 1894; and, indeed, before the date of that Act I understand that it was not unusual for Poor Law guardians to distribute outdoor relief to persons who were in receipt of pay from friendly societies. Under the Act of 1894 a person may receive pay of that description, and to an extent exceeding the amount of 5s. and it may be pay other than sick pay, and nevertheless he may, and, in fact does, receive outdoor relief from the guardians. In our opinion it is desirable that this practice should be regularised. We think it inconvenient that in one union such relief should be freely given and not in another union.
  The noble Earl who spoke last, and who has often addressed us with authority on this subject, suggested that the matter was one with which His Majesty's Government might them selves have dealt, and that a Government Bill upon the subject should have been placed before your Lordships. Well, my Lords, Parliament has already three Bills dealing with the matter, and I really think that we might well hesitate to add a fourth to their number; but, in any case, it is quite clear that it would be impossible for us to add to our programme of legislation for this session a Bill of this kind. The Bill is brought forward by private Members, and, believing as we do that its proposals are reasonable, knowing as we do that it is supported by the friendly societies, that it has been carefully examined by the Local Government Board and is approved by them and their advisers, and that it has twice passed the House of Commons virtually without
  822
  opposition—knowing all this, we consider it would be desirable that the Bill should be read a second time by your Lordships.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, as my vote and action last year have been referred to by my noble friend, I think I may be allowed to explain my present position with regard to the Bill. I have never been an uncompromising opponent of this measure. Last year was the first occasion on which I voted against its Second Reading, but I fully admit that I have always had very grave doubts whether the Bill was founded on true principles. I agree to a great extent with what my noble friend behind me has said, and with what has been said on former occasions by the late Lord Salisbury and by my respected friend, the late Lord Kimberley, and I should like to explain why it was I took the action I did last year. I came to the House having these doubts, but I had practically made up my mind to vote for the Second Reading. I believed that the Bill ought to have been brought in by His Majesty's Government, because it was a matter of very great principle, and I do not think that the noble Marquess has to-night given sufficient importance to the influence of the Government in this matter when he said that, as there were already three Bills in the hands of private Members, it was not necessary that the Government should introduce another. We all know that when the Government takes up a measure of this sort it has far greater influence in Parliament. I had other doubts on the subject. I felt that this Bill only touched the fringe of the question, that there were many other ways in which a thrifty man put by savings, and that to deal only with subscriptions to friendly societies would not be going far enough. I thought there was also considerable doubt as to how the various Poor Law guardians had dealt with the subject, and, therefore, when my noble friend Lord Northbrook proposed that there should be a Committee, I at once stated that I should support the reference of the Bill to a Committee, where I thought very important information would be gained, and great authority obtained either for or against the measure. That was my position last year, and I was very much

  823
  disappointed when Lord Portsmouth informed the House that the friendly societies would not give evidence before a Committee. That, of course, justified Lord Northbrook in not persevering in his proposition, but I was placed in the position of having voted against the Second Reading in the belief that it would be referred to a Committee. Now we come to the present session. It is quite true that two Bills have been proposed in another place. The national conference of friendly societies very clearly stated why they wished the Bill introduced in this House. They thought it was more polite and considerate to your Lordships' feelings not to have it again pressed upon you on the ground that it had been passed a third time in another place. I feel that if your Lordships reject this Bill you will be placed in a position of considerable embarrassment, and of opposition, not only to the unanimous wish, twice expressed, of the House of Commons, but also to the unanimous opinion of the enormous number of members who belong to the friendly societies. I. therefore, think it would be wrong on the part of your Lordships, even if you entertain, as I do, even now, considerable doubt as to the policy that is contained in the Bill, to oppose what appears to be the unanimous vote of the other House and the great desire of the friendly societies. I hope your Lordships will not divide on the Bill but give it a Second Reading unanimously.
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: My Lords, after what has fallen from the noble Marquess the Leader of the House and from the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition it may be thought unnecessary for me to add anything, especially as there is to be no division; but I feel that the arguments expressed by my noble friend Lord Northbrook ought not to pass unnoticed. It is quite true that the Act of 1894 only gave a discretionary power to boards of guardians in this matter, but I would point out that in every reform we must proceed progressively. If it is shown that a permissive power, after it has been tried for ten years, is unsatisfactory owing to the power being permissive, surely it is not unreasonable to ask that it should be
  824
  made compulsory. It has been asked over and over again in the debates in previous years, and my noble friend Lord North-brook has repeated the question to-night, Why do you only give this preference to friendly societies? Savings in the Post Office Savings Bank and in building societies and other institutions have been referred to, and it has been asked why they should not all be similarly treated. What I would say to that is, Do not let the best be the enemy of the good. If this privilege ought to be extended, then let it be the care of my noble friend Lord Northbrook and those who think with him to propose its extension and see how-far the principle can be applied.
  The principle of this Bill is that what friendly societies pay, up to 5s., shall not be taken into consideration by the guardians when outdoor relief is applied for. It must be remembered that the 5s. a week paid by friendly societies is paid weekly, and only in case of sickness, and, therefore, we have a safeguard which is absent in the case of savings banks and other forms of savings. The capital sum of such savings can be withdrawn and may be spent in riotous living, in which case, of course, a man ought not to receive contemporaneous relief from the ratepayers. There is no analogy between the two cases, but if my noble friend can point out, during the progress of the Bill, any condition of things that answers to a friendly society paving a member 5s. a week while sick. I am certain the promoters of the Bill would cheerfully extend the principle they seek to apply to friendly societies. The aim of the Bill is to aid men who wish to be thrifty and careful. Take the case of a labourer in a rural district. He can ill afford to save, and may be tempted to spend his money in drink or in other ways. He asks himself whether he should obtain that which would afford him satisfaction for the moment, or pay the 6d., or whatever it may be, into a friendly society. What is the argument that will be used? He will ask himself, If I pay this into a friendly society, shall I get it back in sick pay if I want it? In one sense he does, but he does not get it back in the full sense, for he is in no better position than his neighbour who does not contribute to the friendly society, because

  825
  his neighbour will also receive 5s. from the board of guardians. If your Lordships refuse the principle of this Bill, you will be saying distinctly that you think it just that a man who is thrifty and pays into a friendly society should not be one wit better off than the man who spends his money in the public house and does not make any provision for sickness Moreover, the advantage which the member of a friendly society would receive would be that he would have more than the bare necessities of life, which is all that the guardians can provide in outdoor relief, and he would therefore feel more self respect and would not regard himself as an absolute pauper. There is this other point, that by giving him this increased advantage in sickness his speedier return to health is secured, with the result that the ratepayers are the earlier relieved of paying outdoor relief. I am sure your Lordships will be doing well in holding out the hand of assistance to these men by accepting the Second Reading of this Bill.
  VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: My Lords, I had not intended to say a single word on this measure. I spoke upon it last year and suggested some objections to it, and I took part in the division by which it was thrown out. I agree in the main with what: Lord Northbrook has said, that it would be best that your Lordships should allow the Bill to puss without a division. I should have been silent but for the speech which has just been delivered by my noble and learned friend,a speech which requires an answer seems to me, because of the very eloquence and feeling which he threw into it. A great part of the noble and learned Lord's speech was in favour of thrift generally. It was not in favour of the friendly societies only, but of thrift generally, and so far as it was in favour of thrift I am sure every Member of your Lordships' House would agree with it. But the cardinal point of the Poor Law should be kept in mind—the relief of distress; and as soon as that distress is mitigated up to a certain point the action of the Poor Law ought to cease; and the best way is to leave the working classes to carry on their system of self-help which, with the assistance of friendly societies, will be most likely to promote their
  826
  welfare. The friendly societies have become one of the glories of our land by keeping themselves entirely free from the action of the Poor Law and Government action, and thereby they have been a manifestation of the power of the working classes to govern themselves. It is not a wise step to weaken one of the fundamental principles of the Poor Law in order to give to friendly societies privileges they do not need. Hut the speech of my noble and learned friend Lord James will be quoted by the working classes as a direct invitation to put friendly societies before all other forms of thrift.
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: I did not say that.
  VISCOUNT GOSCHEN: But my noble and learned friend's whole argument was directed to show the superior advantages of friendly societies over every other form of investment, and it would be a serious thins for your Lordships to endorse any particular investment and indirectly to advise the working classes that this form of investment is superior to all others, Government savings banks included. My noble and learned friend pointed out that if a man spent his money in drink he would be as well off as if he invested it in a friendly society. But it is not necessary for him to spend it in drink if he does not invest it in a friendly society. There are many other forms of investment provided for the working classes of which they have availed themselves to the full extent. I entreat your Lordships, not in reference to this particular Bill, but to the whole of this class of Bills, to fasten upon the question how far this taking into consideration other forms of income when dealing with distress is to be carried. That is the real root of the question. This Bill is the triumph of an instrument often derided, but a most successful instrument—it is the triumph of that which we call the thin end of the wedge. In 1894, power was given to boards of guardians to exercise their discretion. That is sufficient, in the judgment of many, to lead up to the present Bill. My noble friend said we had not shown that it has failed or led to any abuse. On the other hand, we have no evidence

  827
  that it has done any good. That was one of the reasons why my noble friend pressed for information last year. My noble friend next pointed to the anomaly that it should depend on the discretion of guardians whether the sick pay received from friendly societies was taken into consideration or not. Surely my noble friend knows that the whole question of outdoor relief implies a large discretion left to the guardians. They do not always give the same amount to every person who applies. They have to act according to their discretion, and it would be as logical to say that every one given outdoor relief should have a fixed sum or otherwise the discretion of the guardians might produce injustice, as to say that, because there is a certain anomaly created by boards of guardians taking different views on this question, therefore it should be made compulsory. We have not seen the last of this question. Other questions of this kind will arise, and, though they may seem small in themselves, may by a wider and wider application weaken the whole structure of the Poor Law, which has cost so much to defend, and the administration of which has on the whole been a great success.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, it may perhaps seem rather treating the House as a debating society to discuss a question on which there is to be no division, but I felt inclined to rise after hearing the speech of my noble and learned friend Lord James, and I wish to follow on one or two slightly different points the remarks of the noble Viscount opposite. I wish first of all to say that I do not believe for one minute that any little advantage derived from a more indulgent administration of the Poor Law-has the slightest influence in inducing thrifty people of the working classes to join friendly societies. The history of the growth of friendly societies shows that any benefit to be derived in this way has had absolutely no influence. What is the history of friendly societies? They grew from small beginnings in the eighteenth century; they developed in the nineteenth century; and all those people joined the friendly societies at a time when there was no Poor Law benefit to be derived whatever. No doubt since 1894 there
  828
  has been some advantage, though, as we are told, the advantage varies according to the disposition of boards of guardians; but will anyone say that the great societies have found the number of members joining in any way stimulated by this small hypothetical benefit? It is, of course, easy to understand why there is this practical unanimity in acquiescing in this legislation, for there are behind this movement these very powerful organisations with 4,000,000 adult members, mostly voters. But, apart from that, do noble Lords really believe that they are substantially stimulating the cause of thrift by this legislation? I feel perfectly sure that the best working men do not expect, and would be ashamed to be told that they did expect, to have recourse to the Poor Law. If the Poor Law is used as an engine for stimulating thrift there will be a tendency to drift into all the evils of the old Poor Law. If you are going to have a discriminating system of aid according to the meritorious character of the recipient and not according to his destitution, then it is perfectly clear that you cannot stop at selecting one particular form of thrift which you shall reward. Lord James said there was a marked difference between sick relief, paid week by week, and other forms of thrift represented by savings; but I would like to ask whether there does not come quite as serious a pinch from quite as unavoidable causes as sickness. Do not the great out-of-work benefits which the trades unions grant to their members represent quite as unavoidable a calamity? That money also is doled out week by week, and if it is meritorious to encourage men who make provision against, loss of employment by sickness surely it is quite as meritorious to favour men who make provision for loss of income by being thrown out of work. In this Bill you are only encouraging that class of the community who earn the best wages and are best able to take care of themselves. Practically no women are, in friendly societies, secured against illness. If there is a body of people who really make a noble effort to maintain themselves by their industry it is widows. Are you going by-and-by to give them some special facilities? I feel sure that it is by a rigorous keeping of the Poor

  829
  Law to its primary duty, which is the relief of destitution, that we shall best administer to the development of the self-respect, thrift, and energy of the working classes.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  SALE OF INTOXICANTS TO CHILDREN BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1:—
  LORD DUNBOYNEmoved to omit Clause 1 and to insert a new clause. He said the Amendment had been framed to meet the objection of the noble and learned Karl on the Woolsack. The clause at present in the Bill made the holder of a licence liable for the act of his servants in selling intoxicating liquors to children, even against his instructions. He admitted that the clause went too far, and he now moved its omission in favour of a new Clause 1, which was not open to the same objections. The new clause would not impose any hardship on the licence-holder. On the contrary, it would be a protection to him, for a servant would be less likely to commit a breach of the law if he felt that he himself was thereby rendered liable to punishment.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 1, line 7, to leave out, Clause 1 and to insert as a new clause 1 Every agent or servant of any licensed person who knowingly sells or delivers any intoxicating liquor to any person contrary to the provisions of the Intoxicating Liquors (Sale to Children) Act, 1901,shall be liable to the same penalties as are provided by the aforesaid Act in the ease of a similar offence committed by such licensed person.'"(Lord Dunboyne.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Bill recommitted to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 47.)

  NEW ZEALAND AND PREFERENCE.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government if they will communicate to the House the correspondence between the Colonial Office and the New Zealand Government with regard to the Preferential Trade Act. I may inform the noble Duke that in addition to this information a desire has been expressed that he should also let us have copies of Mr. Seddon's Bill as it was introduced and as it finally passed the New Zealand Parliament. I should also like to ask whether it would be at all possible that copies of the debate in the New Zealand Parliament should be circulated to Members of your Lordships' House.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Duke of MARLBOROUGH): My Lords, in reply to the Question of the noble Earl I must remind him of the Conference of Colonial Ministers in the summer of 1902, at which the Ministers decided that they would recommend to their respective Governments that some system of preference should be granted to those trading from this country with our Colonies. In pursuance of that recommendation the New Zealand Government have passed this new measure under the title of the Preferential and Reciprocal Trade Act. The Colonial Office had had no correspondence upon this particular measure with the Governor in New Zealand. The first communication we received from Lord Ranfurly was on 21st November, two or three days after the measure was passed, in which he said that he had much pleasure in informing the Secretary of State that this Bill had been passed by the New Zealand Legislature. The noble Earl will remember that we discussed in your Lordships' House some six weeks ago the different matters and schedules in that Act, and I took the opportunity at that time to point out to the noble Earl that the preference granted to goods going from Great Britain and from our Colonial possessions into New Zealand was considerable compared to the duties on foreign goods entering that colony. Indeed, in the 3rd Schedule, if my memory serves me correctly, the foreigner has to pay 20 percent. while British goods go in entirely free. I think the noble Earl will not be surprised that in reply

  831
  to the telegram received from the Governor of New Zealand the Secretary of State telegraphed in the following terms—
  "His Majesty's Government have received with much satisfaction your telegram of 21st November reporting that the New Zealand Legislature have passed a Bill granting preferential rates of Customs duties to the united Kingdom. They regard this spontaneous con-cession as a further proof of the steadfast determination of the people of New Zealand to promote the strength and solidarity of the Empire."
  One or two other telegrams passed in connection with this Preferential and Reciprocal Trade Act, and a despatch of some length from the Governor, all of which I will cause to be printed and to be sent to any noble Lord who applies at the office of the House of Lords for them. With regard to the supplementary Question which the noble Earl has put to me, whether we can supply your Lordships with copies of the debates which took place on this measure in the New Zealand Legislature, I do not imagine that there will be any difficulty in getting a copy of those debates. I will do my best to carry out the noble Lord's wishes and see whether it will not be possible at the same time that these Papers are printed to supply also a copy of the debates.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: There was one Question asked by my noble friend to which the noble Duke has omitted to make any reply. The noble Earl asked whether the Bill as introduced by Mr. Seddon, as well as the Act as actually passed, con be laid before the House. I hope there will be no objection to that.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: I will certainly make inquiry as to whether we have the exact Bill as it was introduced into the New Zealand Parliament by the Prime Minister, and will endeavour to comply with the noble Marquess's request.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I think the noble Duke had better complete his concession to my noble friend and allow these Papers to be circulated. Papers that are placed in the office only to be had when asked for are hardly ever seen. I think the noble Duke should
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  allow the Papers to be circulated in the ordinary way.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: I will certainly consent to that if the noble Lord wishes it. I thought that only a few noble Lords were anxious to see these particular Papers and that it was hardly worth while circulating them to every Member. But I am perfectly prepared to fall in with the view of the noble Lord.
  THE ACTING CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): I should like to ask the noble Duke whether it is not rather a new departure to circulate the debates of other Legislatures. I hope before the noble Duke does circulate these debates he will ascertain whether there is any precedent for such a course.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: There is a very recent precedent for the proceeding which is proposed. His Majesty's Government have stated that they intended to treat the Transvaal on the footing of a self-governing colony as far as they possibly could, and they have recently laid before Parliament the whole of the debates on the Labour Ordinance. I hope that is a good enough precedent.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.