Lords Sitting of 26 March 1903

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Bangor Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Report from His Majesty's Attorney-General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Birmingham District Tramways Bill [H.L.]. The meeting of the Standing Orders Committee (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Monday next.
Standing Orders Committee—Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Thames River Steamboat Service Bill ought to be dispensed with, provided that Clause 27 be struck out of the Bill.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the petition for a Bill by the Jewish Colonisation Association ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bill.
Read and agreed to.
Hexham Gas Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Lima Railways Bill [H.L.]; Indiarubber, Guttapercha, and Telegraph Works Company Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
North's Navigation Collieries Bill [H.L.]; Faversham Gas Bill [H.L.]; Exeter Railway Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
West Bromwich Corporation Bill [H.L.]. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: Bill committed.
St. Philip's Chapel (Regent Street) Bill [H.L.]; All Saints, Poplar (Rate Abolition) Bill [H.L.]. Committed.
Bangor Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a [according to order].
Electric Lighting (London) Bill [H.L.]. Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Light Locomotives (Ireland) Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
Frinton-on-Sea Sea Defences Bill [H.L.]; Rickmansworth Gas Bill [H.L.]; Pelican and British Empire Life Office Bill [H.L.]; Wellington (Salop) Gas Bill [H.L.]; Southampton Harbour Bill [H.L.]; Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation Bill [H.L.]: Harrow and Stanmore Gas Bill [H.L.]; Bournemouth Corporation Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Poole and District Electric Traction Bill [H.L.]; Birmingham Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; viz.:

E. Romney.

L. Sandhurst.

L. Shute (V. Barrington.)

L. Newton (Chairman).

L. Wandsworth.

Agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet on Thursday the 30th of April next at Eleven o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.
South-Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway Bill [H.L.]; South-Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill [H.L.]; Sutton Cold-field Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Cardiff Railway Bill [H.L.]; Manchester Southern Tramways (Lancashire) Bill [H.L.]; Manchester Southern Tramways (Cheshire) Bill [H.L.]; South Lancashire Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [H.L.]: North Cheshire Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; viz.:

E. Camperdown (Chairman)

E. Lytton.

L. Ellenborough.

L. Hylton.

L. Rosmead.

Agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet

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on Thursday the 30th of April next at Eleven o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2944. United States (Consular District of Baltimore).
  No. 2945. Germany (Estimates of German Empire).
  No. 2946. Chile (Coquimbo).

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
Report and Papers relating to the training of teachers for the year 1901–1902.
INDIA (ENTERTAINMENT OF INDIAN AND COLONIAL GUESTS).
Correspondence relating to the entertainment of Indian and Colonial guests visiting this country by invitation of His Majesty's Government.
IRISH LAND COMMISSION (PROCEEDINGS).
Return for the month of January, 1903.
LICENSING (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
Tables showing the populations of counties, districts, and boroughs in Scotland with reference to the proposals of the Bill.

BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, AND DEATHS, AND VACCINATION.
Forty-eighth Annual Report of the Registrar-General in Scotland for the year 1902, and Thirty-eighth Annual Report on Vaccination.
Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT 1889.
University Court Ordinance No. VII. (Aberdeen, No. 1.) Foundation of the Burnett-Fletcher Chair of History and Archæology in the University of Aberdeen; laid before the House [pursuant to Act], and to be printed. (No. 24.)
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. con sidered [according to order], and suspended for this day's sitting.
PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported [according to order], and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

MARINE INSURANCE BILL [H.L.]
Bill read 3a [according to order.]
EARL RUSSELL EARL RUSSELL moved to amend Section (1) of Clause 16—which provides that "the insurable value, in the case of a steamship, includes also the machinery, boilers," etc.—by the insertion, after "steamship," of the words "or every vessel propelled by mechanical power." He hoped the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would agree that in a Bill which was intended to codify the law with regard to marine insurance, every case should be provided for. Electric launches and launches driven by petrol were becoming more greatly used every day. There was, for instance, to be a race between petrol launches at Cork on the occasion of the Gordon-Bennett race, and, of course, these would be valuable boats with exceedingly valuable machinery which could properly form the subject of marine insurance. He hoped the noble and learned Lord, with a view to completeness, would accept the words he had moved.
Amendment moved—
"In Clause 16, line 28, after 'steamship' to insert 'or other vessel propelled by mechanical power.'"—(Earl Russell.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): I am afraid I cannot accept the noble Earl's Amendment. This Bill has been drafted by people who know thoroughly well what they are dealing with. I should despair of attempting to form any complete description of what should be the policy of marine insurance in respect of this particular mode of risk. I can assure the noble Earl that those who take a deep interest in this Bill would be very reluctant indeed to accept this Amendment. I do not know what the

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future may bring forth with respect to such matters, but, at all events, if there is a development of new motive power, and the risks can be properly calculated by those who effect marine insurance, it must be done by persons who have contemplated all the risks that may arise. I am not disposed to put into a Bill that has been before the trade for five years an experimental clause, and one which might cause considerable embarrassment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

STANDARD FOR RECRUITS.
LORD DENMAN: My Lords, I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War what is the present standard as regards height and chest measurement for recruits for infantry of the line; what was the standard in January 1899; whether the Under Secretary can give further information regarding the new system of chest measurement mentioned in paragraph 35, page 8, of the Report of the Inspector-General of Recruiting: and whether he can give the average height and chest measurement of recruits for infantry of the line during the past year, also for the year 1898–99. I do not think the first two questions require any further comment from me. The only one which may, perhaps, require a little explanation is that which alludes to the Report of the Inspector-General of Recruiting. In the paragraph I have quoted, the Inspector-General states that an absolute minimum was laid down as regards chest measurement below which it was considered unsafe to enlist recruits. I should like to ask the noble Earl if he can tell me exactly what that minimum was. There is another statement in the Report to the effect that the system of chest measurement was based entirely on range of expansion. I would again ask the noble Earl to explain a little more in detail the system alluded to. Before the South African War the system of chest measurement, I think, was this—two measurements, the minimum and the maximum, were put down on the attestation paper of every recruit. I believe that system has now been
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altered. I do not know whether only one measurement is now put down, but, at any rate, there are rumours that rather an elastic scheme has been allowed to creep into the present system. The question of chest measurement is, in my opinion, one of considerable importance and not unworthy of the attention of your Lordships, because it is chest measurement, as all medical men will agree, which gives a soldier the requisite power to endure the strain of modern warfare, which is as great if not greater than in former times. I think it would allay considerable uneasiness in those circles where a keen interest is taken in military affairs if the noble Earl could give a satisfactory answer to the questions I have ventured to ask.
THE UNDER SECRETARY of STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of HARDWTCKE): I will endeavour to give the information which the noble Lord desires. He asks, in the first place, what is the present standard as regards height and chest measurement for recruits for infantry of the line. The present standard of height is 5 feet 3 inches. It was the same in January, 1899. The noble Lord next inquires whether I can give him further information regarding the new system of chest measurement. I will pass over that question for a moment and come to the last one, namely, whether I can give the average height and chest measurement of recruits for infantry of the line during the past year and also for the year 1898–99. I would refer the noble Lord to the Annual Report of the British Army for the latter year, which will give him part of the information he desires. I cannot give him the figures for the past year, for the reason that, as he himself has pointed out, a new system of chest measurement has been introduced. Under the old System no recruit was accepted, except as a "special," whose minimum chest measurement was less than 33 inches. But on 1st April last a new system was introduced, and this system was introduced in accordance with the Report of a Committee of experts, comprising military medical officers and civilian doctors. They examined the question very carefully, and, since April last, instead of taking the chest measurement—the girth of the chest when fully expanded is taken, and then, when the

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recruit has ceased to "blow himself out"—I cannot for the moment think of a better term to express my meaning—the measurement is again taken, and if there is a difference of not less than 2 in. between the two measurements then the recruit is accepted, whereas if the difference is less than 2 in. he is not accepted. Since the introduction of the new system no man has been accepted for the Army who did not comply with those conditions. In future it is intended to issue a Return showing the average height, chest measurement, and weight of every recruit on enlistment. Then after he has completed six months service, and gone through gymnastic training, he will again be measured, and if he has not, according to the requirements laid down by the Committee to which I have referred, increased his physical development to the extent considered necessary, he will not be allowed to remain in the Army. When this Return is published, the noble Lord will see the exact extent to which every recruit developed after six months training in the service. I think I have given the noble Lord the information for which he has asked.
LORD DENMAN: I am much obliged to the noble Earl for the statement he has just made, but I should like to I know what the absolute minimum chest measurement laid down was.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: There is no minimum which can be said to apply to every recruit. It all depends upon his height and general physique. But I would refer the noble Lord to the Recruiting Regulations for 1902. If he will look on page 5, under "Test A," he will get the information he requires.
LORD RIBBLESDALE: As I understand the noble Earl refers to a Return for the year 1898—which gives average height and chest measurement of recruits for that period, I would suggest that, as he has the Blue-book in his hand, he should tell us what the average height and chest measurement was in that year, so that we can know whether the new measurement is to be greater or less than before.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: The book consists of about 140 pages, and various statistics bearing on the subject are given. It would be very difficult for me to pick out the figures at this moment and give the noble Lord a definite answer to the Question he puts. He is quite welcome to the Book and can look for himself.
LORD RIBBLESDALE: Do I understand that the War Office have not boiled down these 140 pages of statistics sufficiently to enable them to arrive at the average height and chest measurement? I suppose the Question has been on the Paper for some time.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: If I had known that the noble Lord wanted this worked out I would have taken the pains necessary to have had it done, but I think the House will perfectly understand that it is a matter of very small importance what the height or chest measurement of a man is after he has been in the service a certain number of years. What you want to know is what is the development of soldiers in the first six months of training, and that is what the War Office in the future are going to give very fully.
LORD DENMAN: Do I understand that the only test as regards chest measurement is whether or not the recruit can expand or contract his chest two inches? Is there no definite limit?
THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: No. The minimum, as I have explained, is laid down according to the height and physical development of each man. You cannot lay down one minimum for all recruits. The test is whether a recruit can contract two inches after inflation. That is the principal test, and it is considered by the highest authorities whom we have been able to consult on the matter as absolutely necessary for the well being and the physical development of our Army.
LORD RIBBLESDALE: What is the irreducible minimum? Is the irreducible minimum the "blown out" recruit or the "unblown out" recruit? Surely the chest measurement of a man is not taken when he is "blown out" but when he is in his normal condition.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKE: The irreducible minimum is the "blown out" recruit.
LORD RIBBLESDALE: I think it will have to be stated in an algebraic equation.

QUEENSLAND AND THE REPATRIATION OF KANAKAS.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to a cablegram which appeared in the issue of the Daily Mail of the 21st instant, having reference to the deportation of Kanakas from Queensland; whether any communication as alleged has been received from Captain Rason, R.N., the British resident in the New Hebrides. I do not myself understand how the situation described by Captain Rason can have yet arisen but perhaps it is a forecast of what may occur in 1906. I would also ask what protective measures in the interest of returned Pacific Islanders have been adopted by the Commonwealth Government in accordance with the statement made by the noble Earl in this House, and whether these are framed on the previous regulations of the Queensland Government, or whether fresh ones have been substituted. In reply to a Question put on my behalf last December by my noble friend Lord Stanmore, the Under Secretary stated that the South Sea Islanders were not British subjects.† I venture to think that that was hardly correct, because they are largely recruited from islands which are for the most part under British jurisdiction. I should have thought, therefore, that they were entitled to be treated as British subjects.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (the Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, I am a subscriber to the Daily Mail, but I do not know that I read it with very great care every day. As soon as the noble Lord's Question appeared on the Paper, however, I made it my business to read the cablegram to which he has referred, and I venture to think that it partakes of a somewhat sensational character. I gather from the terms of the cablegram that any unfortunate Kanaka who returned to his
† See (4) Debates, cxvi., 1459.
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country would immediately be killed, cooked, and eaten, on the most approved principles. I really think that that is a very great exaggeration; and even if it were true that there is a prospect of these persons being killed, every precaution will be taken to see that they do not go back to the place where any such fate might await them. Captain Rason is at this moment in Queensland, and his special business is to go among the Kanakas, who, under the Act, will shortly be repatriated to their own country, and to inform them of what opportunities are available for them. If there is the slightest danger, or even if they fear there is the slightest danger, in their own part of the world, there are many places open to them in the New Hebrides and Solomon Islands, and elsewhere, where the planters will be only too glad to avail themselves of their services. I cannot help thinking that when we get Captain Rason's report we shall find that he has been able to give them assurances and to make provision for their being taken to some part of the British possessions, or to islands under the British protectorate, where they will be sure of good and safe treatment. The noble Lord found some fault with a remark I made when my noble friend Lord Stanmore put a Question to me at the end of last session, to the effect that these Kanakas were not British subjects. Many of them come from islands that are certainly not part of the British possessions, some of them are not even within the sphere of influence of Great Britain, and residence in Queensland does not make them British subjects. But none the less His Majesty's Government and the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia recognise that it is their duty to give every facility for the protection of these men, just the same as if they were subjects of His Majesty.
LORD LAMINGTON: I am much obliged to the noble Earl for his satisfactory answer. I have got what I was anxious to obtain, namely, the appointment of an official to safeguard the interest of these Kanakas. But I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he will undertake that this Report, when it is received from Captain Rason, will be laid on the Table; whether the Federal Government have drawn up a series of

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regulations which can also be printed and laid on the Table of the House, or whether they are acting simply on the regulations which the Queensland Government have been acting upon hitherto. In any case I think the regulations should be made public.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I think I can meet the wishes of the noble Lord best by laying on the Table of the House the communication we have received from the Governor-General of the Commonwealth of Australia enclosing a memorandum from the Ministers in response to a request from His Majesty's Government that they would take every precaution to see that these men were properly treated. I do not know whether they are being returned to their islands under the Queensland regulations, or under a fresh set of regulations, but I will inquire, and if I find that the regulations can be laid on the Table I will certainly adopt that course.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bill read 2a (The Earl Waldegrave). Committee negatived. Bill read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned at ten minutes past Twelve o'clock a.m., till Twelve o'clock.