Lords Sitting of 26 June 1903

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
West Bromwich Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
Manchester Corporation Bill [H.L.]. Reported, with Amendments.
Baker Street and Waterloo Railway (Transfer) Bill. Moved, That the order made on that 16th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 18th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed.
Gorleston and Southtown Gas Bill. Read 3a and passed.
Mid Yorkshire Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
New Hunstanton Improvement Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 17) Bill. Brought from the Commons.
Harrow Road and Paddington Tramways Bill. Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
Belfast Water Bill [H.L.]; Shepshed Urban District Gas Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Gas Light and Coke Company Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
Commercial Gas Bill; Great Eastern Railway Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
Gas and Water Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Housing of the Working Classes) Bill. Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Metropolitan Police Provisional Order Bill. Moved, That the Order made on the 16th day of March last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Thursday, the 18th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a; agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Grangemouth Water Order Confirmation Bill; Lanarkshire Electricity and Refuse Destruction Order Confirmation Bill; Forth Navigation Order Confirmation Bill; Caledonian Railway Order Confirmation Bill; Edinburgh Corporation (Markets, Slaughter-houses, etc.) Order Confirmation Bill. Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill (No. 138); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 17) Bill (No. 139). Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
Highland and Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway Companies Bill; Crystal Palace District Gas Bill; Leigh Corporation Bill; Wellingborough and District Tramroads Bill; Midland and Belfast and Northern Counties Railways Bill; Watford and Edgware Railway Bill; Mullingar, Kells, and Drogheda Railway Bill; Seaforth and Sefton Junction Railway Bill; London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Kilmaine be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Earl of Mayo; read, and agreed to.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  THE OLD NAVIGATING OFFICERS OF THE NAVY.
  LORD MUSKERRYcalled attention to the case of the few remaining officers of the old navigating branch of His Majesty's Navy, now on the active list

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  of staff captains and staff commanders, and asked the Government if they would take into account their long and valuable services, and the lack of recognition they had received in view of the way in which other branches of the naval service had been treated. He asked the Government whether they could see their way to grant the staff captains, fifteen in number, the same retiring allowance—£500 a year—as the officers of similar rank received in the engineer branch, and permit them to assume as a right the title of captain, instead of being gazetted as now, "permitted to assume the rank of captain." In the case of staff commanders—also very few, only seven in number—he asked that they might be granted £450 a year on retirement, if they had served the necessary time at sea, instead of £400, which they now received. He hoped their Lordships would support him in his endeavour to secure better consideration for the remaining officers of the old navigating branch of the Navy. He felt that he had rather a hard task, as his noble friend the First Lord of the Admiralty—although with regard to another branch of the Service he was overflowing a short time ago with the milk of human kindness - seemed to have hardened his heart in respect to the claims of the old navigating officers of the Navy. He hoped, however, that the noble Earl might be persuaded to reconsider the matter in a favourable light. Prior to 1867 there was a distinct class called the navigating class. They went through the same course as the other officers, with the one exception that instead of taking gunnery they took pilotage in their examination. But whereas the other officers could rise to the position of Admiral, the officers in the navigating branch had no chance of getting higher than staff captain. A regulation was, however, passed at that time that three of the navigating class should in each year be absorbed into the executive branch. That was over thirty years ago, and he believed that not a single officer had been so absorbed. Naturally, the branch was now dying out—there were fifteen staff captains and seven staff commanders. Their grievances were, first, the inadequacy of the full pay; and secondly, the small amount
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  of the retired pay. If their Lordships compared the retired pay of a staff captain with that of officers holding relative rank in other branches, they would see that the grievance was a just one. The retired pay, for instance, of an inspector of machinery was £500, but the retired pay of a staff captain was only £450. He did not think the noble Earl would deny that the old navigating officers had done as good service as the members of other branches of the service. Their third grievance had reference to increase of rank. When they retired they were gazetted as "staff captain, with permission to assume the rank of captain." They felt this to be a slight, especially as all other officers when they retired were permitted to assume a higher rank than that in which they had been serving. A captain, after long service, might retire with permission to assume the rank of rear-admiral, and, even after his retirement, he might become a vice-admiral. In the same way, in the engineering branch, an inspector might retire with permission to assume the rank of chief-inspector, or under the new regulations, the rank of engineer rear-admiral. But captains of the navigating branch were retired with permission only to "assume" the rank of captain, a rank which they had held for many years. The fourth grievance was that the officers of the navigating branch were omitted from the honours list. Of all the officers who received honours on the occasion of His Majesty's Coronation, only one of the old branch was included, and he was, to all intents and purposes an Admiralty official. The cost of bringing the retired pay of these officers up to that of officers of similar rank in the engineer branch would not exceed £2,000 a year, and in view of the valuable services of this splendid body of officers he hoped the First Lord would give the matter his favourable consideration.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (The Earl of SELBORNE): My Lords, I entirely agree with what my noble friend has said as to the valuable services rendered by this class of naval officers. Nothing that he has said in their praise will I for one moment dissociate myself from. But I must decline to join with him in discussing the honours which His Majesty thought fit to bestow

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  at the time of his Coronation. As regards the specific questions which the noble Lord has asked, in the case of the staff captains I see no reason why there should be granted to a small number of officers privileges with respect to their retired pay which have been withheld from similar officers for many years past, and the granting of which would raise a grievance among all staff captains on the retired list. I must therefore say, without any hesitation, that that question cannot be reopened. As regards the particular manner in which these officers are gazetted on retirement, I am obliged to the noble Lord for having drawn my attention to the peculiarity of the words used. The words complained of shall not occur again, and these officers will be gazetted on retirement in the ordinary phraseology. As to the third point, I would emphasise the fact that the seven staff commanders now on the list will, if they continue to serve, reach the rank of staff captain, and will then be entitled to the retired pay of staff captains, which is £450. That being the case it does not seem necessary to consider whether any change should be made in the retired pay of staff commanders.

  BISHOPRICS OF SOUTHWARK AND BIRMINGHAM BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order.)
  Clause 1:—
  *THE LORD BISHOP OF HEREFORDhad an Amendment on Sub-section (b) of Clause 1, which sub-section enables the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to provide for transferring (subject to any right enjoyed by any person at the passing of the Act) to the Bishop of Lichfield or to the Bishop of Birmingham the patronage of any benefice situate either within or without the diocese of Worcester, the patronage of which is immediately before the foundation of the Bishopric of Birmingham vested in the Bishop of Worcester. He moved, after "Lichfield," to insert the words "or to the Bishop of Hereford." He said that the effect of the Amendment would be to enable the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to take the diocese of Hereford into consideration in the same way as the diocese of Lichfield. It was strongly felt in one, at any rate,
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  of the two dioceses concerned, that there ought to be some readjustment of patronage as between the diocese of Hereford and the diocese of Worcester, and that this was an opportune moment for doing so. The Bishop of Worcester, at the present moment, was patron of no less than fourteen livings in the diocese of Hereford, whereas the Bishop of Hereford himself was patron of only thirty-two livings in the whole of that diocese. He thought this a sufficient reason for giving the Ecclesiastical Commissioners power to consider this question.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 1, line 24, after the word 'Lichfield' to insert the words 'or to the Bishop of Hereford.'"—(The Lord Bishop of Hereford.)
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsaid he saw no objection to the Amendment.
  LORD BELPERsaid he had no objection to the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 2 agreed to.
  Clause 3:—
  *THE LORD BISHOP OF HEREFORDsaid the object of his Amendments to this clause was to give power to rearrange also the boundaries of the diocese of Hereford. As long ago as 1836, when the very important Bill affecting Bishops' revenues and dioceses was passed, it was enacted that all the county of Worcester should be included in the diocese of Worcester, but that had never been carried out, and there were about twenty parishes in the county of Worcester which still belonged to the diocese of Hereford. It would be a very great advantage if they could assimilate the diocesan organisation to the county organisation as far as possible. All he now asked was that by the acceptance of his Amendments they should be at liberty to appear before the Ecclesiastical Commissioners when the time came, and advocate such a readjustment as they believed might be beneficial.
  Amendments moved—
  "In page 2, line 22, after the word 'Lichfield' to insert the word 'Hereford;' and in line 29, after the word 'Lichfield' to insert the words 'and Hereford.'"—(The Lord Bishop of Hereford.)
  LORD BELPERsaid he had no objection to the Amendments.
  On Question, Amendments agreed to.
  On Sub-section (a) of Clause 3, which provides that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners shall have power in the event of the foundation of a Bishopric of Southwark, of rearranging the boundaries of the dioceses of Canterbury, Rochester and Southwark.
  *LORD ASHCOMBEmoved after "Canterbury," to insert "Winchester." He said that the proposed diocese of Southwark would adjoin, on the west side, the diocese of Winchester, and therefore, it was desirable that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should have the same power, if they thought fit, of rearranging the boundaries of the diocese of Winchester as they had of rearranging the boundaries of the dioceses of Canterbury and Rochester. The Amendment had the approval of the most rev. Primate and of the Bishops of Winchester and Rochester.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, line 19, after the word 'Canterbury' to insert the word 'Winchester'."—(Lord Ashcombe.)
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYsaid he saw no objection to the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 2, line 28, after the word 'Southwark' to insert the words 'Winchester and Southwark.'"—(Lord Ashcombe.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining Clause agreed to.
  Schedule 1 agreed to.
  Schedule 2—
  LORD NORTONsaid he desired to amend the section which provides that, subject to the rights enjoyed by any person at the passing of this Act, there
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  shall be transferred to the endowment fund of the Bishopric of Birmingham, such portion of the endowment or income of the Bishopric of Worcester as will reduce that endowment or income from the annual sum of £5,000 to the annual sum of £4,200, irrespective of tenths or first fruits. He wished to omit "£4,200" and to insert "£4,000."
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY)pointed out that the noble Lord's Amendment should have been moved to the First Schedule, which had been agreed to. It was therefore out of order now, but it could be moved on Report or in the Standing Committee.
  Schedule 2 agreed to.
  Bill recommitted to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended. (No. 137.)

  CONTRACTS (INDIA OFFICE) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2:—
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsuggested that the rules and regulations in regard to the manner in which contracts were to be signed should be made public in some way. He thought they might be laid before Parliament regularly.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): I will take care that the noble Marquess's suggestion is considered.
  Clause 2 agreed to.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to.
  Bill reported without Amendment; and recommitted to the Standing Committee.

  THE JUDICIAL COMMITTEE AND THE NEW ZEALAND COURT OF APPEAL.
  *LORD HAWKESBURY: It having been represented to me that some dissatisfaction exists in New Zealand with

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  regard to a recent decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, I beg to ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack whether his attention has been called to the matter.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): I very much regret to say that I think owing to a misapprehension of what was intended by the words used, there has been a feeling created in New Zealand in respect to a judgment of the Privy Council, and accordingly I have thought it right to make inquiry on the subject, and I am happy to say that I have received an assurance from the learned Judges who decided the case that they never intended to make any attack whatever on the Court of Appeal in New Zealand. The mode in which the case was conducted and certain observations contained in the judgment of the Court of Appeal in New Zealand induced the learned Judges to make the remarks as to which remonstrance has been made; but I am assured by the learned Judges that it never occurred to any one of them that in the observations they thought it right to make they were making an attack on the Court of Appeal in New Zealand, or that they intended in any way to comment on the character or conduct of their proceedings. I trust that this assurance will be conveyed to the Court of Appeal in New Zealand, and that the feeling aroused will be found to have been based on a total misapprehension.
  House adjourned at five minutes past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.