Lords Sitting of 16 June 1903

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with: Blackheath and Greenwich District Electric Light.
And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with: Grindleford, Baslow, and Bakewell Railway.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
South-Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway Bill [H.L.]. Petition for additional provision; of the South Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway Company; together with the proposed clause annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H.L.], (Ramsbottom Urban District Council Order). A witness ordered to attend the Select Committee.
Grindleford, Baslow, and Bakewell Railway Bill. Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday next.
Manchester Southern Tramways (Lancashire) Bill [H.L.]; Manchester Southern Tramways (Cheshire) Bill [H.L.]. Report from the Select Committee, that the Committee have consolidated the said Bills, with Amendments, under the title of the Manchester Southern Tramways Bill [H.L.]; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Manchester Southern Tramways (Lancashire) Bill [H.L.]; and Manchester Southern Tramways (Cheshire) Bill [H.L.], now Manchester Southern Tramways Bill [H.L.]. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Bristol Corporation Bill [H.L.]. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported, with Amendments.
Commercial Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments.
Salford Corporation Bill [H.L.]. The King's consent signified; and Bill reported, with Amendments.
Scottish Central Electric Power Bill [H.L.]. Read 2a.
Cork Harbour Bill. Read 2a, and committed.
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill; East Ham Improvement Bill; Highland and Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway Companies Bill; Wellingborough and District Tramroads Bill. Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Bill; Cheshire Lines Committee Bill; Newcastle-upon-Tyne Electric Supply Bill. Read 2a, and committed.
Midland and Belfast and Northern Counties Railways Bill; Watford and Edgware Railway Bill. Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
Wood Green Urban District Council Bill. Read 2a.
Carmarthenshire Electric Power Bill. [H.L.]. Read 3a; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway Bill. Standing Order No. 93 considered (according to Order), and dispensed with, with respect to a petition of Messrs. Frederick Boyd Brown and Charles Wells. Leave given to present the said Petition.
Knott End Railway (Extension of Time) Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill. House in Committee (according to Order). Amendments made. Standing Committee negatived. Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next.
Local Government Provisional Order (Housing of the Working Classes) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill. Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill. Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [H.L.]; Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to Order): Bills reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a on Thursday next.
Water Orders Confirmation Bill [H.L.]. House in Committee (according to Order); Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next.
Polling Districts (County Councils) Bill [H.L.]; Polling Arrangements (Parliamentary Boroughs) Bill [H.L.]. Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill (No. 108); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 12) Bill (No. 109); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 14) Bill (No. 110); Local Government Provisional Order (No. 16) Bill (No. 111); Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) Bill (No. 112). Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; referred to the Examiners, and to be read 2a on Thursday next.—(The Lord Kenyon.)
Caledonian Railway Order Confirmation Bill (No. 113); Edinburgh Corporation (Markets, Slaughter-houses, etc.)
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Order Confirmation Bill (No. 114); Grangemouth Water Order Confirmation Bill (No. 115); Lanarkshire Electricity and Refuse Destruction Order Confirmation Bill (No. 116). Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Balfour), and reported from the Committee.

PETITIONS.
  DECLARATION OF THE SOVEREIGN AGAINST TRANSUBSTANTIATION.
  Petitions for abrogation of; of Roman Catholics residing in Croxdale; Shanklin and Sandown; and Brixton; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Minutes of Proceedings of the South African Customs Union Conference, held at Bloemfontein, March, 1903; Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  MUNICIPAL TRADING.
  Ordered, That the evidence taken by the Joint Committee on Municipal Trading during the session of 1900, be referred to the Joint Committee on Municipal Trading of the present session.
NEW BILL.
  NEWCASTLE CHAPTER (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to make further provision for the foundation of a Dean and Chapter of Newcastle, and for other purposes connected therewith—Was presented by the Lord Bishop of St. Albans; read 1a, to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday next. (No. 117.)
  MUSICAL COPYRIGHT BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments. The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 106.)
  STATUTE LAW REVISION (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment, and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee without further Amendment. The Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the whole House to be received on Thursday next.
  COAL MINES (CERTIFICATES) BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee with an Amendment. The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 107.)

  RULES OF ORDER.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether there are any precedents for Bills being proceeded with in Parliament on any subject under inquiry and consideration at the time by a Committee or Commission; and, if so, will he state what those precedents are. I am referring, of course, to the action taken by the Government with regard to the County Councils Bill and the Borough Funds Bill; and, even if the noble Lord is able to produce precedents for Bills being proceeded with on a subject under inquiry by a Committee, then I should say, on the principle that many a rule is better in the breach than in the observance, that those precedents should not be followed.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): The noble Earl is a little difficult to deal with, because if any number of precedents are produced, he will not pay any attention to them. The noble Earl's Question proceeds on the assumption that the Bills to which he has alluded refer to the subject under inquiry by the Joint Committee on Municipal Trading, but that is not so. The reference to the Joint Committee is—
  "To consider and report as to the principles which should govern powers given by Bills and Provisional Orders to municipal and other local authorities for industrial enterprise within or without the area of their jurisdiction."
  These Bills in no way determine what those principles shall be. The object in
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  the one case is to enable County Councils, subject to certain restrictions, to defray the cost of promoting Bills, and, in the other case, so far as the promotion of Bills is concerned, to improve the machinery under which the consent of the constituent body is obtained. I would point out that the greater portion of what is described as municipal trading is done under the powers of general Acts, and the way to stop that, if it is thought desirable to stop it after the inquiry, is to limit the powers given by those general Acts to the various bodies.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSrose to reply amid some cries of "Order!" He was contending that these Bills dealt with the subject referred to the Joint Committee when—
  EARL SPENCER, interposing, said the noble Earl was not in order in making a speech after a reply had been given to his Question.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): I think the noble Earl is exceeding the licence which we are all delighted to give him; but, as the matter has been called to my attention, I think he is clearly out of order.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Is it not a fact that the only way to stop a Peer is to move that he be no longer heard?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not think that is quite accurate. If the noble Earl persisted with his speech despite the cries of "Order," the course suggested might be pursued; but in the circumstances it would be extremely discourteous.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: It would be extremely discourteous, but I do not see how you can stop any Member of this House except by means of a Motion. I have often heard your Lordship say you are only a Member of this House.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Certainly.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: You may express an opinion, but if a Member chooses to disregard it, what is to happen then?
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: May I go on?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: Then I shall reserve what I have to say till a later stage.

  BRITISH INTERESTS IN CHINA.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government (1) whether Russians have obtained a concession for a railway guaranteed by the Chinese Government from Ching-ting-fu, on the main line from Peking to Han-kau to Tai-yuen-fu, the capital of Shan-si; (2) whether Germans have been conceded by the Chinese Government two important extensions of railway, namely, first, from Te-chau on the Grand Canal to Ching-ting-fu, this being a continuation of the main line of railway which is being pushed across Shan-tung from Kiao-chau Bay through Tsi-nanfu, the capital, to the Grand Canal; secondly, from Yen-chau in Shan-tung, on the Tien-tsin-Chin-Kiang main line to Kai-fong-fu, the capital of Honan; (3) whether the concession granted to M. Rouffart, a Belgian, who is now at Peking awaiting the Imperial edict sanctioning that concession, is for a railway from Kai-fong-fu, the capital of Honan, to Honan city, and carries with it a Chinese Government guarantee and an option for the railway's extension to Tung-Kuan, the key of Western China, and Si-ngan-fu, the capital of Shen-si. In putting these Questions I would ask the noble Marquess who surveys the foreign affairs of mankind from China to Peru to accompany me in a trip to the Flowery Land, the land of the Mandarin and the pigtail. My reason for this peregrination is this. There appeared in The Times of 10th June last, under the heading "Railway Rivalry," a communication from the able correspondent of that paper at Peking. His statements are always found to be right. When negotiations were being carried on at Peking his statements were not
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  only found to be right, but what he prophesied came true: and, therefore, this is no canard or mare's nest to which I am directing your Lordships' attention, but a subject well worthy of the attention of the House. If you wonder what I have to do with China I will say at once that three Englishmen, with myself, were the original directors of the Pekin Syndicate, which obtained, in May, 1898, the Shan-si and Honan concessions—
  "For mining purposes, iron works, the transport of all minerals, and also the power to construct branch railways to connect with main lines or with water navigation,"
  which is the old and most important means of carriage and communication in the Chinese Empire. Since that day much water has flowed down the Yang-tsze. The Pekin Syndicate and the British and Chinese Corporation have joined in regard to railway construction, and have thus been strengthened in their common object. The Pekin Syndicate, since obtaining their concession, have carried from England to China some 19,000 tons of railway material, transported it some 500 miles by land and river, and have constructed 75 miles of railway, of which 54 miles are now being run over by locomotives. So that this concession has not been allowed to remain idle, as I am sorry to say others have.
  Coming to my questions, I would explain in regard to the first that the line from Ching-Ting-fu to Tai-yuen-fu, originally conceded to the Russo-Chinese Bank in May, 1898, was without a Chinese Imperial Government guarantee, but early in this year the bank obtained a guarantee on all fours with the trunk Peking-Han-kau Railway. This Ching-Ting-fu Tai-yuen-fu line touches some of the coalfields originally conceded to the Pekin Syndicate, and I have reason to believe that it will be capitalised in France. I do not take exception to this move, but I would call attention to its political importance. The railway will undoubtedly strike south-west from Tai-yuen-fu into the centre of China, on to the province of Szu-chuan, the richest and most populous province in the Chinese Empire, and no doubt it will eventually join with the French advancing northwards through Yunnan. We might look with equanimity on this as a development of China by means of railways but for the fact that this province

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  of Szu-chuan is in the upper waters of the river Yang-tsze, which is most distinctly the British sphere of influence; and the British sphere of influence in the Yang-tsze Valley is another name for the open door in China.
  As to the second Question, the fact that the Germans have obtained concessions to extend their railways from Shantung, which will tap the coalfields in Shan-si and Honan, is not disadvantageous to the Pekin Syndicate, which holds these concessions; but it must be remembered that the object is to develop the German port of Kiao-chau to the detriment of Nanking and Shanghai, where British interests predominate, the river Yang-tsze debouching at the former place. All interested in British trade in China must see from what I have stated that foreign Governments are backing up their subjects who are seeking and working for railway concessions. All that is asked of our Government is that they shall afford the same backing to British subjects who are engaged in pushing the interests of British trade in China.
  My third Question deals with another line, non-British, ostensibly from Kai-fong-fu to Honan city, and on to Tung-Kuan, the key of Western China. This will, no doubt, form part of the Russo-Chinese Bank extension into Western China mentioned in my first Question. For unless the application which I understand has been made by the Pekin Syndicate and the British and Chinese Corporation, now one, and representing strong British interests, is granted for the railway line from Nanking through Si-ngan-fu into the province of Szu-chuan and strongly supported by His Majesty's Government, this line will in all probability be granted to other than British interests. British railway prospects, even in the Yang-tsze, are no better than they were before; and bearing in mind the telegram from Sir C. MacDonald to Lord Salisbury, dated September 4th, 1898, which stated that the Pekin Syndicate were entitled to construct railways from their mines to the Yang-tsze, and also bearing in mind the valuable Shan-si and Honan mineral concessions obtained by the Pekin Syndicate, it appears that they are denied their natural outlet to the Yang-tsze. I do not put aside the political question to urge the claims of this purely British syndicate, but I
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  must point out that the political question is wrapped up in the question of the construction of railways by foreigners and therefore affects the economic question of trade and development by British enterprise and British capital. I therefore hope the noble Marquess in his answer will set at rest any misgivings and doubts as to His Majesty's Government giving their strongest support to those interested in, and to those who have put their money into railway enterprise in, and developed the mineral resources of China, and who have shown their earnestness in carrying out the obligations I have set forth. I do not speak in any alarmist sense, being hopeful that the noble Marquess will continue to carry on the work of his predecessor, who was always most anxious to help forward this development policy in any way. But since then foreign Governments have been much more active and China has become more easy of access. For these reasons I have brought the subject before your Lordships' House.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I am afraid that if I were to follow the noble Earl minutely into the details of the subjects covered by his Questions I should be compelled to make a somewhat lengthy excursion into the regions of Chinese geography—an excursion which, I fear, would be somewhat puzzling to your Lordships. But I think I can give him a comparatively simple answer to the three Questions on the Paper. I will only preface what I have to say by observing that it would perhaps have been well if the noble Earl had drafted his Questions in such a way as to make it evident that he desired to call attention, not only to questions of fact, but to those questions of railway policy upon which he touched during the course of his speech. As to my noble friend's Questions, I have to say that the answer to the first Question is in the affirmative. His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Peking reported to us last December that an agreement between the Director-General of Southern Railways and the Russo-Chinese Bank for the financing of a railway from Cheng-Ting-fu, on the Peking-Hankau Railway, to Tai-yuen-fu

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  had received the Imperial sanction. That is the answer to the first Question. The second Question raises rather more intricate points. The British and Chinese Corporation and the German syndicate are at this moment jointly negotiating with the Chinese Government for a final agreement for a line from Tien-tsin to the Yang-tsze. We are given to understand that the part in which the German syndicate is interested includes the construction of the two branch lines referred to in the noble Earl's question—I mean the line from Techou on the Grand Canal to Chang-ting fu, and the other line from Yen-chau, in Shan-tung, to Kai-fong-fu, and this action on the part of the German syndicate has been taken without any objection on the part of the British and Chinese Corporation. On the other hand, the latter corporation—the British and Chinese Corporation—acting with the Peking syndicate, with which the noble Earl, as I understand, is to some extent connected, are applying for other lines running westwards from the British portion of the Tientsin-Yang-tsze line. I gather that one of these lines will be a line towards Szu-chuan, the importance of which the noble Earl has so correctly pointed out; and I am able to say that those two British associations are applying for those concessions with the fullest and complete support of his Majesty's Government. I now come to the third railway mentioned by the noble Earl. The matter stands as follows—The Peking-Hankau Railway Syndicate, which, I think, is under Franco-Belgian control, are understood to have obtained the Kai-fong-fu-Honan railway concession, but His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires has told us in a recent telegram that the Chinese Government altogether deny having given concessions for the extension of the line to Si-ngan-fu. That, I gather, is a point to which the noble Lord attaches importance. I do not think it would be convenient that I should, on this occasion, enter into the general question of the position of British railway interests in China; but I shall certainly be prepared to show, if necessary, that the representatives of British enterprise in that country have not come away by any means empty-handed. They have secured some extremely important concessions; and I am constrained to confirm an observation made by the noble Earl—namely, that it does
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  not always follow that because a valuable concession is obtained it is turned to account with as much promptitude and expedition as everyone would desire. But, on the other hand, I freely admit that we have had serious cause for complaint of the manner in which the Chinese Government has dealt with the applications of some of these concessionnaires, and we have found it necessary recently to make a strong remonstrance to the Chinese Government upon the subject. Our Ambassador, Sir Ernest Satow, is about to return, after a well-earned holiday, to Peking. And he will go back fully aware of the views of His Majesty's Government and with instructions to support them energetically. In conclusion, I may say that the noble Earl may depend upon it that the associations which represent British interests in the matter of railway construction in China will certainly receive from His Majesty's Government a backing which I hope will bear comparison with the backing received by the representatives of other countries.
  House adjourned at five minutes past Five o'clock to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.