Lords Sitting of 13 July 1903

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with: Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 13); Public Offices (Dublin).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
Hexham Gas Bill [H.L.]. Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Bath Corporation Water Bill. Reported, with Amendments.
Seaforth and Sefton Junction Railway Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. Reported from the Select Committee, without Amendment, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
London United Tramways Bill. Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The Orders made on the 26th of May, and Thursday last discharged; and Bill committed for Thursday next.
Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill; Gateshead Corporation Bill. Moved, That the Order made on the 16th March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after the 18th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2a; agreed to; Bills read 2a accordingly.
Metropolitan District Railway (Various Powers) Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
Great Northern Railway Bill, Midland and Belfast and Northern Counties Railways Bill. Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
Gateshead Corporation Bill. Committed.
Pontypridd Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]. Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 14) Bill; Cheshire Lines Committee Bill; Highland and Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway Companies Bill. Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill; Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill. Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bills to be read 3a To-morrow.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill. Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
Metropolitan Police Provisional Order Bill; Harrow Road and Paddington Tramways Bill. Report from the Committee of Selection, "That the Lord Lamington be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Belhaven and Stenton; read, and agreed to.
South Shields Corporation Bill; Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway Bill; Ebbw Vale Water and Improvement Bill; Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Sewerage Board Bill. Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Lamington be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Kilmaine; read, and agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Statement of schemes for the formation of Education Committees, approved during the month of June, 1903, by the Board of Education, under Section 17 of the Education Act of 1902 (in continuation of Parliamentary Papers, Command Nos. 1564, 1613, and 1659 of session 1903), showing — Name of local authority; number of the council; number of members of the Education Committee; number of members of the Education Committee who are necessarily members of the council; number of women who are necessarily on the Education Committee; forms of educational experience to be represented on the Committee; recommendations or nominations (if any).

  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES
  No. 3027. United States (Porto Rico).
  No. 3028. France (Dahomey).
  No. 3029. Italy (Leghorn).
  No. 3030. Japan (Hakodate).

  JUDICIAL STATISTICS (IRELAND), 1902.
  Part II. Civil Statistics.
  Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

  GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
  Report, by the Board of Trade, as to dispensing with the consent of the Farnborough Urban District Council in the case of the Aldershot Gas and Water Provisional Order.

  DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACTS, 1894 AND 1896.
  Foreign Animals Order of 1903.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

PETITION.
  INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
  Petition for restraint of sale of; of the Mossley Temperance Union; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  PORT OF LONDON BILL.
  Report from the Joint Committee, That the Bill ought to be allowed to proceed: The Proceedings of the Committee and the Minutes of Evidence laid upon the Table, and to be delivered out.

  IRISH LAND BILL—DATE OF SECOND READING.
  *THE EARL OF WESTMEATH: My Lords, I desire to ask a Question of which I have given the noble Duke the Leader of the House private notice—whether His Majesty's Government can give any indication as to when the Second Reading of the Irish Land Bill will be taken in the House of Lords, and whether they will give an assurance that it will not be taken before August 3. I imagine that my motive in putting this question will not be misinterpreted in any way, but will be readily understood. As your Lordships are aware, an event of a particularly auspicious and gratifying character is about to take place in Ireland, and Irishmen of all classes wish to be on the spot in order to extend a welcome to their Sovereign when he visits their native country. Not content with staying in the Metropolis His Majesty wishes to visit the further portions of the country, and naturally we all desire when he goes there to extend to him a hearty welcome. There has undoubtedly been a certain amount of anxiety that, owing to the rapid progress of the Irish Land Bill in another place, it might be possible to take the Second Reading in this House rather sooner than was anticipated. This, I think, would be much regretted by noble Lords who have the misfortune to be Irish landlords, and who, I imagine, would wish to be in their places when a measure so revolutionary and of such an important character is taken in this House. It occurred to me, therefore, and my action was approved by my colleagues, that the best course would be to ask the noble Duke to give us an assurance that the Second Reading will not be taken in your Lordships' House before August 3, in order to enable those of us who have to be in Ireland on the occasion of His Majesty's visit to return and be in our places when the Second Reading is taken.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I understand that, under present arrangements, it is thought that the Third Reading of the Irish Land Bill may be taken in the House of Commons on

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  Monday, July 27. It is possible that that result may be arrived at later rather than earlier than the date which is now contemplated, but I believe it is not expected to be at all likely that it can be taken before Monday the 27th. I think that, in any circumstances, it would probably be convenient and desirable that a week's interval should elapse before the Second Reading is moved in this House, and especially in the circumstances which have been referred to by the noble Earl. I think the noble Earl and Irish Peers generally may confidently rely on the Second Reading not being taken before Monday, August 3.
  EARL SPENCER: The proposal of the noble Duke seems a desirable one to adopt. But there are other important measures to come up to your Lordships from the other House, and I would like to ask the noble Duke whether he can inform us when we are likely to receive the London Education Bill.
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I will endeavour to reply to the noble Earl's Question to-morrow.

  THE PRESERVATION OF WILD ANIMALS IN CENTRAL AFRICA.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether any steps have been taken, or are being taken, in co-operation with other Governments, to carry out the terms of the Convention of 1900, in reference to the preservation of wild animals in Central Africa. It will be in the recollection of your Lordships that about three years ago a Convention was entered into between His Majesty's Government, and, I think, seven other Governments interested in Africa, for the setting apart of a certain zone for the preservation of wild animals. The zone set apart is a very extensive one—it extends from the Atlantic to the Red Sea, and all the European Powers interested in Africa took part in that Convention. In addition to this zone, each Power, I believe, undertook that certain preserves should be set aside, not only for the preservation of these animals from destruction, but also for the encouragement of breeding. About that time, or shortly after, the war
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  broke out in South Africa, and probably the attention of the Powers was diverted from that object, but it is one which I think your Lordships will agree with me is of very great importance. We know that many of these animals have absolutely disappeared altogether. I can recollect when elephants roamed all over many districts which are now thickly inhabited by Europeans. But what I want to ask is, whether any steps are being taken beyond the mere Convention for the promotion of these objects? It is obvious that a great deal more is required to carry out the real objects of the Convention, and that a considerable number of officers must be appointed to enforce the regulations, which are in many cases very stringent. They extend to the preservation of almost every species of wild animal that can be useful to man, and to the preservation, within a certain degree, of animals which might be hurtful but are interesting for scientific reasons. Many kinds of antelopes are mentioned; zebras are mentioned, and I may express the hope that, as science extends in those parts, many of these animals—zebras, for instance—will be found useful for domestic purposes. The African elephant, I believe, has never been used since ancient days for domestic purposes, but it is quite possible that when these districts become better known and inhabited by Europeans the African elephant may be found as useful as his congener in Asia. I beg to put the Question standing in my name.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, so far as this country is concerned, steps are certainly being taken to carry out the provisions of the London Convention of 1899, but I find, as regards the co-operation of other Powers, that the ratifications of the Convention have not been deposited. The reason is this. France made a special reservation to the effect that she reserved her obligations to ratify until the adhesion of Abyssinia and Liberia had been obtained. It appears that both these states are reluctant to give their adhesion, I believe, for the reason that they apprehend that they might not find it possible to enforce the provisions of the Convention. But so

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  far as our Protectorates are concerned—I mean British Central Africa, East Africa, Uganda, and the Somali Coast Protectorate—the provisions of the Convention are carried out under regulations framed for the purpose. Under those regulations, for example, there is a prohibition of the export of any tusks weighing loss than 11 lbs., and our administrative and Customs officers are all instructed to do their utmost to see that these regulations are respected. Lately we have appointed an official with the title of "game ranger" to watch over the execution of these rules. I am glad to say that, so far as our Protectorates are concerned, we have no reason to believe that large game is in any way decreasing. The matter will continue to be watched, and we will do what we can to obtain the consent of other Powers to prevent the extinction of these interesting animals.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: I do not know whether the noble Marquess is aware that before any destruction of game can take place licences are required from all the Powers.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNELicenses are required from the Officials of the Protectorates.

  THE FISCAL POLICY OF THE COUNTRY.
  LORD HENEAGE, who had given notice, "To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will publish in a convenient form any information in reference to the hostile tariffs of foreign countries, or of the British colonies, which is of material importance to the consideration of the fiscal question now before the country, as well as any evidence of the increase or decrease in the volume of our trade in recent years, which may be prepared for the use of the Government in their present inquiry," said: My Lords, since I framed this Question some three weeks ago a good many things have happened. At that time anyone who had an open mind with regard to an inquiry was liable to hear himself called a protectionist or a traitor to free trade, but now I think everyone is of an inquiring mind. All free traders, as well as everyone else, desire that there should be an exhaustive
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  inquiry, and that every information should not only be obtained by the Government, but should be laid before the country. Public opinion out of doors has changed in this matter, but not more so than opinion in your Lordships' House, because it will be remembered that when this question was first brought forward by the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Goschen) some weeks ago, he made a speech, and a speech was afterwards made by my noble friend Lord Avebury, which might very easily have been followed by a Resolution that everything was satisfactory under the present free trade arrangements, and that no inquiry at all was needed. But those noble Lords have advanced considerably since that time. The noble Viscount opposite in last Friday's debate on the question from the Indian point of view, was most anxious to obtain information in order that he might find himself fully equipped for the fray in October next, and my noble friend Lord Avebury made a very fair and well-balanced speech on the difficulties which free trade has had to contend with. My noble friend said, and said truly, that the discussions at successive Colonial Conferences could not be ignored, and he reminded your Lordships that the novel systems of bounties, cartels, and syndicates had raised problems which did not exist in the time of Cobden and Bright. My noble friend might have added that the prophecy of Cobden had not come true, and that other countries had not adopted free trade but were, every one of them, protectionist.
  The question that we have to decide is whether, after all, we are free traders, or whether we are what the noble Duke called free importers. Cobden sixty years ago said, even when he thought all nations would follow our example, that the time would come before long when we would have to have a revision of our fiscal system, and I think that time has already come. I approach this question as a free trader, as one who is not at all satisfied with the present state of things, and I am most desirous that full inquiry should be made into the present position of free trade and the conditions of our free trade policy. I also desire that inquiry

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  should be made which may lead to some idea of what is likely to be the outlook in the future, which I think is far more important. I am most desirous that not only the members of the Government and the Leaders on the Opposition side of the House, but the nation as a while should take part in this inquiry, that all the information collected should be given to the nation, and that all those who have a practical knowledge of the various trades which are now subject to hostile tariffs should have an opportunity of going into the figures and facts laid before His Majesty's Government.
  We must recollect that two generations have grown up since the last protection election in 1851; they have grown up to manhood and to the franchise. Education makes the artisans of the present day very good judges of facts and figures, and I think that anyone who has addressed them in recent years must have recognised that they are far more intelligent than the farmers and the shopkeepers of forty years ago. What they are all desirous to know is, what is all this free trade controversy about? Have we really got free trade, and why are other countries protectionist? They are constantly being told that other countries are far better educated than themselves, and the artisans are desirous of knowing why those who are more educated should prefer protection, and why we alone of all the countries in the world remain free traders. Then they are desirous of knowing whether what they are told on being thrown out of employment—viz., that the hostile tariffs and bounties of other countries are preventing their employers from giving that employment to the workers at home which they would desire, because they cannot sell their goods abroad, is true. Most men of business will, I think, understand how much easier negotiation with other countries is carried out if both parties have something to give as well as something to take. The other day my noble friend Lord Welby asked for a Return of hostile tariffs, and other details, existing in England before 1842, and the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council decided that that Return should be given.
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I suggested that the noble Lord should move for the Return.
  LORD HENEAGE: At any rate, the noble Duke did not object to the Return being granted. I want information about what is going on now in the year 1903. I think that is of much greater importance. I do not think you will find that the electors of this country will be put off by the tales of their grandfathers. I think it most desirable that practical men of business and experts in all trades should consider this question with every information. I am perfectly well aware that the Question on the Paper is in somewhat vague terms, but that is not my fault. I have endeavoured during the last fortnight to draft some form of Return which the Board of Trade would be willing to give, but I have always been met with one of three answers—either that they were too busily occupied in providing material for the inquiry by the Government to devote any time to anything else; or that the particular Return I wanted would be misleading; or that they could not give it. In these circumstances I fell back on the information which the Government are having prepared for themselves, and I thought that at any rate the publication of that could not be objected to, and that the facts and figures upon which the Government formed their decision would be exactly the facts and figures which the country would like to see.
  For my own part, I may say that the information I should particularly like would be a list of the chief products of this country with the hostile tariffs of other countries in tabular form, so that they might be easily known. I should also like to have some Return showing the volume of trade of this country at the present time, and the increase or decrease in that volume of trade during recent years, so that by a little trouble it could be easily ascertained how far that was the effect of the hostile tariffs or bounties of other countries. I should like also some information with regard to the income tax Returns. We are told that this is the wealthiest nation in the world, and the income tax is pointed to. I should like to know how much of that income tax revenue is derived from outside

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  this country, how much is derived from capital paying wages to foreigners and from capital paying wages at home. It is well known that many trades have ceased employing hands in all parts of this country, and have set up trades in France, in the United States, and in other countries. That is information I should like to have. I should also like to know how many of these firms have set up factories in other countries. I have not put these requests on the Paper for the simple reason that I thought objection might be raised to them in form or substance, and therefore I content myself with asking the Government to give the country, in a convenient form, that information which will have been prepared for their own use.
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, my hon. friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs stated on Friday last that the Government were willing, indeed anxious, to supply to Parliament any information which they may be able to collect for their guidance, and which would be for the public advantage to present, and I do not know that I can do more than repeat that intimation, with the addition that it is our desire to lay this information before the House in as convenient a form as possible, and at the earliest possible date. With regard to the specific Question which the noble Lord has placed on the Paper, he has, I think, supplied me to a very large extent with the answer. It appears that the noble Lord has already been endeavouring to arrange with the Board of Trade—the Department which probably would be most qualified to give this information—for the preparation of certain Returns, but that he has been informed by that Department that for various reasons it would not be possible to give the information in the form in which he desires it. I therefore should be rather imprudent if I undertook, in answer to the Question of the noble Lord, to promise that we would supply him with a Return of the exact nature that he asks for. As to what he designates the hostile tariffs of other countries, I conceive that the tariffs of all foreign countries, whether hostile
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  or not, are accessible in documents already before the House. Whether a summary can be made of such tariffs in a convenient form I am unable to say, but it appears that the noble Lord has hitherto been unsuccessful in arranging with the Board of Trade the form of such a Return as he desires. I can only repeat that the Board of Trade is at present extremely busily engaged in obtaining information on all these points primarily for the consideration of the Government, But, so far as we think it is desirable in the public interest and will conduce to a better understanding of this question, it is our desire to lay all this information as early as possible before the House.
  House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.