Lords Sitting of 4 March 1902

OFFICE OF LORD GREAT CHAMBERLAIN
Committee for privileges met. Counsel further heard on behalf of the claimant the Earl of Ancaster. Counsel heard to open the case on behalf of the claimant the Duke of Atholl Committee adjourned to Tuesday next.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  MEDWAY AND THAMES CANAL BILL [H.L.],

    ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE AND DUKINFTELD CORPORATIONS (ALMA BRIDGE, &c.) BILL [H.L.],
    BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L],
    DEVONPORT CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.],
    DEVONPORT WATER BILL [H.L.], LONDON AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.],
    DARLEY DALE WATER BILL [H.L.],
    Report from the Committee of Selection, that the Earl of Lathom and the Lord Hylton be proposed to the House as Members of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Earl of Malmesbury and the Lord Lilford.
    Read and agreed to.

NORTHUMBERLAND ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
SWANSEA CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a(according to order).
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ARGENTINE REPUBLIC, No. 1 (1902).
  Report by the Hon. E. Scott on the Welsh Colonies in Chubut. Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  LONDON WATER BILL.
  Message from the Commons that they have come to the following Resolution, to which they desire the concurrence of
  310
  the House, viz.:—That it is expedient that the London Water Bill be committed to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons.

  PLUMBERS' REGISTRATION BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee without further Amendment; the Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the Whole House to be received on Thursday next.

  BISHOPRIC OF SOUTHWARK BILL [H.L.], [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, this is the same Bill as that which passed through all its stages in your Lordships' House last year, and which was crowded out, for want of time, when it reached the House of Commons. Its purpose is to relieve the diocese of Rochester, which has grown to an overwhelming size, and is now rather more than ought to be assigned to one Bishop to manage. It divides the present diocese of Rochester into two parts—one to be called the diocese of Southwark, and the other the diocese of Rochester—the former to include the district of South London. To the diminished area of the diocese of Rochester will be added certain portions of the diocese of Canterbury. These, at one time, belonged to the diocese of Rochester, and are, therefore, only being restored to it. The boundaries have been very carefully considered, and I do not believe there will be any objection to them. I beg to move the Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
  VISCOUNT MIDDLETON: My Lords, I make no apology for rising to support this measure, because, with the exception of two or three right reverend Prelates. I believe I know more of the locality with which it is intended to deal than any Member of your Lordships' House. I do not think that anyone who has not studied the question carefully can be aware of the enormous increase of population which

  311
  has taken place in the districts affected by this Bill. It is now at least three times what it was forty or fifty years ago, and it is further increasing daily. It is, however, not only the quantity of the population, but the quality, that makes the problem of dealing with it so difficult. I believe that there exists, within the area of a mile around Lambeth Palace, more crime, vice, and immorality than can be found in any similar area throughout the length and breadth of London. There are streets there which are almost entirely given up to the criminal classes. I remember the chairman of Surrey Quarter Sessions being warned by the police never to venture down any of the side streets leading off Waterloo Road, because it was believed that there was not a single inhabitant there who did not know him by sight from the dock of the Sessions House. It is of extreme importance to strengthen the hands of the Church in this quarter, and I hope that your Lordships will read the Bill a second time without opposition, and that it will not be materially modified in its passage through the House.
  THE LORD BISHOP OF ROCHESTER: My Lords, I cannot refrain, as Bishop of the diocese referred to, from expressing my satisfaction that the Bill now presented to your Lordships has the support of my noble friend the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Surrey. The noble Viscount has laid before the House one of the enormous difficulties which beset the Church in South London. But we have not only to deal with the slums of that portion of the diocese of Rochester which lies within the interior of London, but with the enormously rapid extension in the exterior portion, and, of the two problems, I am inclined to think that the latter is almost the more overtasking. I feel that the Bishop who is responsible for South London ought to have his hands, time, and thoughts as free as possible for dealing with both of these problems, and ought not to be encumbered with the charge of the great national centre at Chatham, and of the many problems which beset it, I trust that the Bill will become law this session.
  On Question, agreed to.
  Bill read 2aaccordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday, the 13th instant.

  VOLUNTEER FORCE—STATISTICS.
  LORD CHELMSFORD, who had given notice of his intention to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether he would lay on the Table a comparative statement of the enrolments in, and discharges from, the Volunteer Force between November 1st and January 31st, 1900–1901, and November 1st and January 31st, 1901–1902, said: Since putting my Question on the Paper I held a conversation with my noble and gallant friend the Under Secretary of State for War, who tells me that a Return for the broken periods mentioned would be very inconvenient to prepare, in consequence of the Volunteer Returns being made up quarterly. I will therefore modify my Question, and ask for a comparative statement between October 1st and March 31st, 1900–1901, and October 1st and March 31st, 1901–1902.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord RAGLAN): It is the case, as the noble Lord says, that the Returns are only received quarterly from the Volunteer Force, and therefore we could not prepare a statement with regard to the periods mentioned in his Question. But if a Return from October 1st, 1900, to January 1st, 1901, and from October 1st, 1901, to January 1st, 1902, will meet the wishes of the noble Lord, I shall be glad to lay it on the Table.

  THE ARMY AND RESERVE AFTER DEMOBILISATION.
  THE DUKE OF BEDFORD: My Lords, in calling attention to the probable condition of the Army after demobilisation, I am asking your Lordships to consider the matter of men and numbers, by far the most important problem connected with the Army. You may re-organise the War Office. You may re-construct the Army. Your re-organisation and your re-construction may be perfection, but both will be useless if you have not the men in sufficient numbers and of the right sort to fill the ranks of the Army,

  313
  which we must have if we are to maintain our Empire with its ever increasing.liabilities. The requirements of South Africa have necessitated the mobilisation of 107,000 men of the Army and Militia Reserves, the retention of 50,000 men with the colours who were due for transfer to the Reserves, and the depletion of the Indian garrison by 10,000 men transferred to the seat of war. I ask your Lordships to consider what will be the effect of demobilisation on the regular Army in South Africa, in India, and at home, and also upon the Reserve. It is necessary, for the purposes of calculation, to assume a definite time when the Reserves will be dismissed from the colours. The precise time of demobilisation may alter figures, but does not affect the main issues which I am about to submit for the consideration of your Lordships. I assume, then, that the Reserves will be dismissed in October, 1902, after three years service with the colours. It seems to me that next October is the earliest moment when their dismissal can be expected.
  I find by the Army annual Return for 1899 that the strength of the Army Reserve in 1899 was 78,798, and that of the Militia Reserve who joined the line 29,096, a total of 107,894. Allowing 10 per cent. for men unfit for active service, we get, in round numbers, 97,000 mobilised Reservists for service for South Africa. Since 1899 no transfers to the Reserve have taken place. All men due for transfer to the Reserve have been retained with the colours and counted as colour service men. The yearly transfer from the colours to the Reserve, according to the annual Return of the British Army, is more than 15,000, so that three years accumulation may be reckoned as 50,000 men. This number of 50,000 reservists accumulated with the colours added to the total of 97,000 mobilised Reservists sent out in 1899, will give the gross total of the men due to leave the Army on demobilisation, that is, 147,000 men. But that number is subject to two deductions. First, the number of men who have taken their discharge during the war, their period of service being completed—and, in the absence of official figures, I assume that number to be 30,000—secondly, loss by death and
  314
  permanent invaliding. Under this heading I cannot obtain any correct figures, because the casualties of the Regular Army have not been differentiated from those of all the other forces serving in South Africa. But some deduction must be made for casualties. I will deduct 20,000 men on this account, and allowing 30,000 as the number of men who have taken their discharge, these two numbers subtracted from the gross total of men due to leave the colours on the dismissal of the Reserve will give the net number of men due to leave the colours on demobilisation. The gross total, 147,000, less 50,000, equals 97,000. But these men due to leave the colours are not all in South Africa. In India there are 30,000 Reservists retained with the colours, which will leave 67,000 Reservists in South Africa. The total strength of the Regular Army in South Africa has just been returned as 137,000 men. The release of these 67,000 Reservists will leave 70,000 men with the colours in South Africa. In the Government plan for redistribution of troops, announced last session, twelve Infantry battalions were allotted as the garrison for South Africa, that is, 10,000 men of the line. I submit that, unless disaster is to be invited in South Africa, the garrison must remain at 70,000 men of the Regular Army for several years to come. When the Reserves are allowed to return home, the state of emergency being declared over, the Militia, Yeomanry, Volunteers, and Colonial contingents, other than South African, must also be released from service in South Africa.
  I would call your Lordships' attention to the condition of this garrison of 70,000 men after the Reserves have been withdrawn. The Reservists are the older and more experienced soldiers. They are the backbone of the Army in South Africa. On demobilisation not only will you diminish the quantity of the Army in South Africa, but you will seriously impair its quality. Infantry battalions and Cavalry regiments will be greatly decreased in strength. Infantry battalions will vary between 250 and 400 men, and Cavalry regiments will sink below 200 men. In short, many regiments and battalions will cease to be complete units, and there will be no men to

  315
  return home with the colours. The strength of the Regular Army now at home, is, I believe, about 120,000, including all men invalided home from abroad and boys of less than twenty-one years of age, upon whom the following demands must be made. In India there are some 30,000 Reservists due to leave the colours. Of these 17,000 have accepted bounties to extend their colour service instead of passing to the Reserve, leaving, therefore, 3,000 due to come home on the return of the Reserves. But the garrison of India is already 10,000 men below strength. Therefore, to bring up the garrison of India to its full strength, 23,000 men will at once be wanted. In addition, there are all other foreign garrisons, except India and South Africa, to be replenished. Thus at least 30,000 men will be required for foreign service from the Army at home, leaving a residue of 90,000, composed of invalided men and boys too young for foreign service, instead of the three Army Corps of 155,000 men which, last year, it was assumed would certainly arise from the ashes of demobilisation.
  I now come to the Reserves. In the first place the term "Reserve" as applied to the Reserve of our Army is misleading. By the term "Reserve" is meant a certain quantity of men, money, or material kept back from present use for future need. That is not the case with the Reserve of the British Army. The war has shown very clearly that the men of the Reserve proceed abroad in the first instance, and the boys with the colours remain behind. Our Reserve is really our first fighting line, and we have nothing behind it in the way of Regular troops. The whole essence of short service is the creation of a strong Reserve. But the Government now offer bounties to men to stay with the colours and not join the Reserve. In India some 17,000 men have accepted these bounties. There should be a young soldier with the colours and an older soldier in the Reserve. But you have only one man where you ought to have two; that is the fault, and to him you are paying a bounty of £26 to defeat the whole principle of short service. Moreover, bounties create a double exit from
  316
  the colours. There should be but one exit, namely, transfer to the Reserve, but bounties allow time-expired men and Reservists to leave the colours at the same moment. I submit to your Lordships that the system of bounties is unsound administration. Transfers to the Reserve take place amongst men serving beyond the seas after eight years service with the colours, which is to the disadvantage of the. Reserve. But a certain number of men at home are transferred to the Reserve alter three years service with the colours, and that is favourable to the Reserve. To calculate for these two different periods of transfer to the Reserve would be extremely complicated. I propose, therefore, to allow the advantage and, disadvantage to cancel one another, and to calculate the whole Reserve on the-basis of seven years colour service and. five in the Reserve. Of the whole Reserve mobilised in 1899—that is, 107,894 men — only those men will, remain in October, 1902, who were transferred to the Reserve between October,. 1897, and October, 1899. All who were-transferred previous to October, 1897, will have completed their full term of service, and will be due for discharge by October, 1902. Thus, of the Reserves mobilised in 1899, there will be only two annual transfers left in October, 1902, that is, 30,000 men.
  The Reservists who have been retained with the colours since 1899 amount to 50,000 men, and this number, added to the 30,000 who remain from the mobilised Reserve, will give the gross total, of the Reserve in October, 1902, namely, 80,000 men. This number is subject to the following deductions. First, 17,000 men who have accepted bounties to continue with the colours instead of joining the Reserve, and to this number must be added those men who will accept bounties bet weep now and October, 1902, and some who will purchase their discharge from the Reserve on the termination of the war, say 20,000 in all. The second deduction is one-seventh for casualties, that is. 11,000 men. This, with the 20,000 bounty men, makes 31,000 men to be subtracted from the gross total of 80,000, leaving 49,000 as the number of the Reserve on demobilisation in October, 1902. Your Lordships must, however, remember that these.

  317
  men have either served through the I South African campaign, or, which is worse from the point of view of general health, have been retained for an abnormal period in India. We entered on the war with a Reserve of 107,000 men, which, on demobilisation, will become 49,000 men. We shall end the war with no Field Army with the colours at home, but only a depot of 90,000 soldiers, including invalids and boys, who will have to supply drafts for an Army abroad of 166,000. That is a very grave situation.
  LORD RAGLAN: My Lords, I quite.agree with the noble Duke that this is a very important subject; no more important subject could be brought before your Lordships. The only thing I have to complain of is the extremely short notice I have received, owing to which I have not been able to go sufficiently into the subject to be able to give more than a sketch of the position which we anticipate. I cannot altogether accept the figures we have just heard. The whole question is a most difficult and complicated one, and it is not easy to follow a large number of figures given in this way, although the noble Duke has delivered his speech with great clearness. As far as I am able to discover, we anticipate hat after the war the deficiency in the number of men with the colours will be something between 24,000 and 30,000 men. I regret that I cannot give these figures with greater accuracy, but, as your Lordships are aware, they must be very largely matters of guesswork. These figures, of course, will increase to a certain extent it invaliding takes place In any very great degree, and there is another source of waste which, of course, we have no means whatever of anticipating—namely, discharge by purchase. Sixteen thousand five hundred men have taken the bounty in India to complete their colour service for twelve years. Of course that, although it makes the deficiency less in the Regular Array, depletes to that extent the Reserve, and it will make it necessary in the years 1903–1906, when these men will complete their colour service, to increase the number of recruits for the Army by something like 4,000 a year. I am afraid that is as far as I can go as to the position of the Regular Army at the end of
  318
  the war, and that I cannot at this moment enter upon the questions of how these men will be distributed and what garrisons will be maintained in South Africa. With regard to the Army Reserve, at the beginning of the war the Reserves stood in round figures at 110,000 men. There were 81,000 men of the Army Reserve and 29,000 men of the so-called Militia Reserve. According to the best calculations we can make under normal conditions at the end of the war, the Army Reserve, will number 70,000 men, and there will be the disappearance of the Militia Reserve, as that force has now been abolished. But from the 70,000 men we have to deduct the 16,500 who have taken the bounty, which reduces the number we estimate for the Army Reserve to 53,500. Under normal conditions of service, we calculate that the Reserve would in time rise to somewhere about 90,000 men. It would take some time to arrive at that figure, but we hope to make such arrangements that the Reserve will be very largely increased above that figure, and that we shall be provided with between 150,000 and 170,000 men. The whole of these matters will be laid before the public in detail this afternoon by the Secretary of State for War, and I am not in a position at this moment to enter into those details, nor do I think your Lordships will be able to thoroughly discuss these matters without fuller knowledge of what it is proposed to do.
  House adjourned at five minutes past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.