Lords Sitting of 13 June 1902

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

City and Brixton Railway.

London County Council (Money).

London County Council (Subways and Tramways).

London County Council (Tramways and Improvements).

Also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:—
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5).
Also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

Local Government Provisonal Orders (No. 2).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6).

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Housing of Working Classes).

And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to be following Bill have not been complied with:—
London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

LONDON, TILBURY, AND SOUTHEND RAILWAY BILL.
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday next.
FELIXSTOWE AND WALTON IMPROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
The King's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
CLAY CROSS RAILWAY BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
CITY OF LONDON (SPITALFIELDS MARKET) BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
BROADSTAIRS GAS BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (CRUMLIN VIADUCT) BILL.
Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill.
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL,
  CITY OF LONDON (STREETS) BILL,
    HALIFAX CORPORATION BILL.
    Read 2a, and committed.
    METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL.
    Read 2a, and committed; the Committee; to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
ABERCARN URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL,
  FURNESS RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL.
  Read 3a, and passed.
  NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  SCARBOROUGH TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
FINCHLEY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL,
  MANCHESTER CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
  COATBRIDGE GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  SWANSEA CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
ABERTILLERY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
  BRADFORD-ON-AVON GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
MILITARY LANDS PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 2) BILL,
  DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES) (No. 2) BILL, (No. 112),
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 11) BILL (No. 113).
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  COMMERCIAL No. 2. (1902), SUEZ CANAL.
  Returns of Shipping and Tonnage, 1899, 1900, and 1901 (in continuation of "Commercial, No. 2, 1901").

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (JUDICIAL RENTS).
  Return for the month of November, 1901.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND).
  Act of Sederunt anent lodging of productions for proofs in the Court of Session.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated 7th June, 1902, granting a retired allowance to
  600
  Mr. Robert Frederick Greenwood, telegraphist, Central Telegraph Office, - London, under section 2 of the Superannuation Act, 1887.

  ARKLOW HARBOUR.
  Report of the Arklow Harbour Commissioners, and Statement of Accounts for 1901.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

BRITISH MUSEUM BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
LANDS VALUATION (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order): An Amendment (Privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

ELEMENTARY DAY SCHOOLS.
LORD NORTON: My Lords, I beg to ask the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council when the statistics of elementary day schools, which are usually published much earlier than this, will be placed on the Table.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (the DUKE of DEVONSHIRE): These Papers were, I understand, long since laid on the Table. The fact that they have not been published is entirely due to delay on the part of the printers, who undertake now that they shall be delivered without fail tomorrow.

TRAINING OF ELEMENTARY TEACHERS ABROAD.
LORD NORTON: My Lords, in accordance with the notice standing in my name, I rise to move for a Return of the number of students of each sex who have been sent abroad from training colleges for a third year's training under the 120th Article of the Code, which permits such additional training to be taken either at the training colleges or elsewhere; and of how many of each sex have been sent to France to reside in colleges, and how many otherwise lodged. I really think

601
it is of some importance that your Lordships should have this Return. I doubt very much whether any one of your Lordships, with the exception of the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council, is aware of what has been going on since 1893, in the way of sending young students of both sexes from our training colleges to France or Germany for a year to finish their training. This important alteration has been introduced into our system of national education simply by the insertion of the single word "elsewhere" in the Code—an Amendment of the Code which, I confess, I did not notice until recently. In fact my attention was drawn to it at a meeting of the National Society a week ago, when it was resolved to present a petition to the Government asking that students sent to the Continent for the third year of their training should be sent only to places where they would have the advantage of the English Church service. That is, no doubt, an important point, but it is not the whole question.
This innovation has altogether affected the character of the general finishing year's training given in our training colleges. The sole idea of many people who loudly talk of national education is better competition with foreign industry, and they seem to ignore altogether the higher considerations connected with this important question. From their view, no doubt, it is important that our students should be able to talk foreign languages, especially French, fluently; but is this of such importance that the higher considerations are to be passed over in snatching at this one advantage? I contend that those who take French conversation for a finishing training of teachers are not thinking of the necessities of elementary schools at all, but of a State system of education for all classes. A Prussian system of education in this country is in their minds, and when they are sending out these students to France and Germany to study the language, they are thinking mainly of a higher class of students whom they intend to turn out for higher posts. They want, in the interests of industry, a practical apprenticeship of the sons of rich manufacturers to lucrative employment at the public expense, and under Government drill.
602
The noble Duke the Lord President has kindly sent me a circular, forwarded by the Government in 1900 to all the training colleges in England, which sets forth the conditions on which grants are given to send these young students abroad. The circular is carefully drawn up, and explains minutely the benefits expected from the scheme. It is first stated that this course would widen the culture and experience of the students. I doubt whether they would get a wider culture in Franco than in England, but as to the experience that some of these girls might get in Paris, I allow they might got a good deal, though I am not quite sure that it would be always of the right sort, or of any advantage to them in training for teachers. The circular states, secondly, that a more thorough knowledge of the language will be obtained. Yet the students are required to be efficient in simple conversation in the language of the country before they are sent out. What, then, are they to learn by going abroad? Grammatically, they could learn French as well at home. Going abroad is useful to catch conversation by the ear. The third benefit which is alleged is that their methods of teaching and school organisation will be improved. We are perpetually being referred to the Continent for higher models of education. I altogether demur to this constant reference to the Continent. I prefer to judge by the results of the education given in England as compared with the results of the education given in Germany, and I prefer the turn-out of the English youth to the turn-out of German prigs. I should be very sorry if this country were to hand over what is the true responsibility of well-to-do parents to give their children suitable education to the cast - iron state system of France and Germany.
The circular also directs as to where these students are to reside during the year's training abroad. The question is an important one—important from the moral, the religious, and the intellectual point of view. It is the last year's given training. But what guidance does the Government give the training colleges in the matter of selecting residences? They refer the college authorities to an office of inquiry in Cannon-row. With regard to girls, the Government insist that girls sent to

603
Paris should be placed under the supervision of Miss Williams, who is described as the head of the Franco-English Guild in Paris. I have no doubt that this lady is in every way qualified to have so responsible an office given her; but I contend that when such important changes are made in our system of national education, your Lordships should be kept informed of what is being done, and should also be made acquainted with the agencies employed by the Government. My chief protest is against the Department's powers to make such innovation by inserting the word elsewhere in an edition of the Code. I am quite sure the noble Duke will be willing to give the information for which I ask, but I shall be prepared to amend my Motion in any way in order to facilitate the presentation of the Return.
Moved, for a Return of the number of students of each sex who have been sent abroad from Training Colleges for a third year's training under the 120th Article of the Code, which permits such additional training to be taken either at the Training Colleges or elsewhere; and of how many of each sex have been sent to France to reside in colleges, and how many otherwise lodged.—(Lord Norton.)
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, there is not the smallest desire on the part of the Board of Education to withhold any information on this subject from your Lordships or the public generally. If the noble Lord is satisfied with a Return down to the word "France," that Return could be made and laid on the Table of the House at once. If, however, he requires the further information contained in his Motion on the Return could not be presented so soon. As to the subject generally, my attention had not been called to it before the noble Lord placed his Motion on the Paper. It is, as he has very correctly stated, a new experiment which has been tried since 1893, and the circular to which the noble Lord referred, issued in 1900, contains some account of the experience which had been gained in regard to it. The Board of Education
604
does not take any initiative whatever in sending these third year students abroad either to France or Germany. It is for the training colleges to submit proposals, and what the Board of Education does is to approve the proposals. Frequently, however, the Board of Education has been able to give the training colleges information which has been of value to them in deciding the nature of the proposals they should make. The office in Cannon-row to which the noble Lord referred is the office of the Director of Special Inquiries and Reports, of which Mr. Sadler is the head. All the information which is required by the heads of training colleges is supplied there, and it is part of Mr. Sadler's duty to place that information entirely at their disposal. I do not feel able to pronounce a very positive opinion as to whether this system is one of great value or not. I am quite ready to admit that the continuation of the education of elementary school teachers in French and German may not he a necessity to the great majority of those teachers. It must be remembered, however, that we have to train not only teachers in elementary schools but also to provide a training for teachers in training colleges; and the experience which has been gained by the Department, and the experience which the training colleges themselves appear to have gained, is that by availing themselves of these opportunities for completing the education of a small percentage of their teachers abroad, they have been able to obtain teachers of wider culture, and therefore better qualified for the offices these teachers, male or female, may hold in the future in training colleges. However, I do not think I can do more than promise to give the noble Lord all the information he asks for; and if he then thinks it necessary to take exception to the further progress of this experiment, which seems to give satisfaction to the authorities of training colleges, I shall be happy to consider anything he mar have to urge against it. I should, however, think it necessary to confer very carefully both with the training college authorities and the Inspectors of the Board of Education before abandoning an experiment which, so far as it has gone, has received the

605
approval of the training college authorities and has, in their opinion, conduced to the better education of their students.
LORD NORTON: I am quite willing to amend my Motion in accordance with the suggestion of the noble Duke, and at a subsequent period I shall be glad to take the sense of the House upon the wisdom of the plan.
EARL SPENCER: I do not intend to go at any length into this subject, which is part of the extremely important question of training colleges in this country. I believe that at this moment our training colleges are very much behind hand, not only in the numbers but in some respects in the training of the students. I did not gather that the noble Duke was prepared to abandon this experiment merely on the Motion of the noble Lord behind him.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Hear, hear !
EARL SPENCER: I am sincerely glad that that is so, because this is not a mere question of a student going abroad to learn languages. No doubt that is an important point; but the very fact of a student, one who is about to conduct education himself or herself in this country, being abroad must widen his or her interests and intelligence to a very great degree. I am, therefore, sincerely glad to learn that the noble Duke does not at all intend to abandon this experiment, but that he is only going to look into its working. At a later time I hope we may have a fuller discussion on this very important subject I of training colleges in this country.
On Question, Motion, as amended, agreed to.
House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.