Lords Sitting of 25 July 1902

Preamble
The Right Honourable Charles John Lord Colville of Culross, K.T., G.C.V.O., Lord Chamberlain to Her Majesty Queen Alexandra, having been created Viscount Colville of Culross, was (in the usual manner) introduced.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS
THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had had upon the Table the Certificate from the examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with—
Fleet wood Urban District Council.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS
  LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments.
  CLAY CROSS RAILWAY BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments; a further Amendment made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

  GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (CRUMLIN VIADUCT) BILL.
  LORD HAWKESRURY: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be re-committed. Owing to certain provisions in the Bill, of the Committee on which I had the honour of being Chairman, decided that it should not proceed; but since then, the promoters and the opponents have met, and it has been brought to my knowledge, that they have come to an agreement on the subject. The Bill, therefore, becomes an unopposed measure, and I hope your Lordships will agree to its being recommitted as such.
  Bill re-committed for Tuesday next.

  HASTINGS TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.],
    TAFF VALE RAILWAY BILL [H.L.],
    Returned from the Commons agreed to
    FELIXSTOWE AND WALTON IMPROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
    Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
    CONSETT WATER BILL [H.L.],
      RHONDDA URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
      Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
      POST OFFICE SITES BILL.
      Committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
      PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
      Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
    RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
      PUBLIC ACCOUNTS, SAVINGS BANKS FUNDS, STEAMSHIP SUBSIDIES, PRIVATE BUSINESS, NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
      Message to the Commons for copies of the Reports, etc., of the Select Committees.
      WAR IN SOUTH AFRICA.
      Telegrams concerning the siege of Ladysmith.
      Further correspondence relating to affairs in South Africa (in continuation of [Cd. 903], January, 1902).
      Correspondence relating to the regulation and supply of labour in Southern Rhodesia.

      WAGES AND HOURS OF LABOUR (BOARD OF TRADE, LABOUR DEPARTMENT).
      Report relating to changes in rates of wages and hours of labour in the United Kingdom in 1901, with statistical tables.
      Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

      BANKRUPTCY ACT, 1883,
      General rules as to administration orders under Section 122 (dated 10th July, 1902).

      PUBLIC RECORDS (SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE).
      Schedule containing a list and particulars of classes of documents existing or accruing in the Supreme Court Taxing Office, which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation in the Public Record Office.
      Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

      PUBLIC LIBRARIES (IRELAND) BILL.
      [SECOND READING.]
      Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
      LORD KILLANIN: My Lords, the Bill which I desire the House to read a second time met with no opposition in the House of Commons, and I hope that your Lordships will also look favourably upon it. Its object is to give to rural districts in Ireland the same power as already exists in urban districts of levying a rate not exceeding a penny in the pound for the purpose of establishing public libraries. There have been attempts made in Ireland lately, not only to improve agriculture and to revive industries where possible, but also to make village life pleasanter and brighter, and this Bill admirably fits in with those movements. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will accord the Bill your support, and that, should it become law, the powers given will be fully made use of in the rural districts in Ireland.
      Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Killanin.)
      THE EARL OF DENBIGH: There is no objection on the part of the Irish Office to this Bill.
      On Question, agreed to; Bill read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next]

      CANADIAN IMMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED STATES.
      LORD BURGHCLERE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information as to the reported immigration of farmers from the United States, into the Dominion of Canada. It may be in the knowledge of some of your Lordships that there has lately been a very considerable immigration of settlers from the United States into Canada. Last year I understand that the total number was very nearly 50,000; this year the number of immigrants has been estimated at the almost startling figure of 200,000. It is said that these settlers come from the farming classes of the United States, and that they are attracted to Canada by the cheapness of the land in the Dominion compared with the price of the land in the United States. I have also heard it stated that Minnesota farmers have been able to sell their holdings at from £8 to,£10 an acre, and to purchase land in the wheat-supplying districts of Canada at the low price of £1 to £2 per acre; so that these men are able to pay off mortgages on their land in the United States, and buy considerably larger farms in the Dominion free of debt. It is further said that syndicates have been established in Canada and in America for the purpose of purchasing large tracts of land and to sell them to intending settlers. One of these land agencies—I think it was at Toronto—which had acquired over one million acres of land, is reported to have been selling this land to the settlers from the United States at the rate of something like 23,000 acres a day. I have no official information or statistics on the subject; that is the reason why I have put the question to the noble Earl. I think your Lordships will admit that, if the figures I have quoted are true, or even approximately true, they represent a very remarkable state of things. I approach this subject in no hostile spirit. If this large influx of fanners and agriculturists into the Dominion is going to be for the permanent benefit of Canada, we all, I am sure, welcome it. But I think your Lordships will see that if the facts are as I have stated, this immigration, if it increases at anything like the same ratio,

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      will have a very far-reaching effect, not only on the Dominion of Canada, but also on this country and the wheat supply of the world. This is a question of very great importance to us in this country, who are necessarily large importers of corn. I hope the noble Earl will give the House and the country any information lie may have on this by no means unimportant subject.
      The UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW): My Lords, I have not the statistics of the immigration from the United States into Canada for the present year. There can be no doubt, however, that the fertile lands in the western part of the Dominion are being taken up with unexampled rapidity, not only by immigrants from the United States but also by immigrants from Europe and this country, and the rapid development which is taking place in the north-western province of Canada bids fair to make the wheat fields in that country the most prominent factor in the wheat supply of the world. The figures quoted by the noble Lord were somewhat startling, but I do not think that the immigration is quite so large as he represents it to be. I am informed that since 1896, which was practically the first year of immigration from the United States, the figures were:— 1897, 712; 1898, 9,119; 1899, 11,900; 1900, 15,500; 1901, 17,897; arid up to the most recent date in 1902 the number was 24,100. Those are progressive figures showing a very large increase.
      LORD BURGHCLERE: I was careful to say that I was not responsible for the figures, which were quoted from the English and American Press.
      THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Can the noble Lord give the corresponding figures of Canadian immigration to the United States?
      THE EARL OF ONSLOW: No, I cannot.

      MILITARY BAND IN THE PHAENIX PARK, DUBLIN.
      THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government, with regard to the riot in the Phaenix Park, Dublin, concerning the military band, if inquiries into the said riot have been made, and the result thereof; and, if a band plays in the park on Sundays, whether the authorities will see that it is not interfered with, and that respectable citizens are allowed to enjoy the music in peace.
      THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, the occurrences to which my noble friend refers took place on Sunday, 29th June. A large number of people, estimated at 5,000, assembled in the vicinity of the military band that was playing in the park. The great majority of these people were present to enjoy the music; but a small section, consisting of about 200 persons, made a hostile demonstration by hooting arid groaning after some items had been played. In consequence, the band was withdrawn. The circumstances, regrettable though they were, were not in the nature of a riot, and did not call for the active intervention of the police. Steps will be taken to ensure peace should the band play again in the park, and an attempt be made to interfere with it. But I understand that the military authorities have ordered that no military band shall play in the park in the future. I may inform the noble Earl that the police could not have dispersed the people by force for merely expressing disapproval of the band by groaning. I believe that the military band was engaged to play in the park by the Tramway Company, and that, while many of the people who showed their hostility were, no doubt, influenced by a spirit of disloyalty, others were influenced by the fact that no city or civilian band had been engaged.
      THE EARL OF MAYO: I am glad to hear from the noble Earl that should the band again play in the park, steps will be taken to enable the respectable citizens of Dublin to enjoy the music in peace.

      HOLYHEAD NONCONFORMIST VOLUNTARY SCHOOL.
      *LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked the Lord President of the Council why the Board of Education wished to suppress the Nonconformist voluntary school at Holyhead, and had directed the School Board to provide another school in its place. He said the case of this school was a very simple one. The Department had been threatening it for more than a year because it had not got what they considered a sufficient playground. This complaint was utterly frivolous. The school had a playground which was quite sufficient to meet the requirements of the children during the ten minutes each morning and the ten minutes each afternoon that they went out to get fresh air; and in the middle of the day, of course, they went home to their dinners. A few years ago about £300 was spent in making the necessary alterations, and it is was impossible to provide a larger playground. He had been in conflict with the Education Department for a considerable time, and could only attribute the opposition to this school to the "spite" which the Vice President of the Council entertained towards himself. Sir John Gorst made a speech last year in which he said that nobody would assassinate, him (Sir John Gorst), because it would be of no use. He (Lord Stanley) wrote to Sir John asking him what he meant by this foolish speech inciting people to assassinate himself, also asking him whether his son's book, "The Curse of Education," had, as some people thought, been written in agreement with himself; if not, he had goaded his son to literary parricide. If the Vice President did not cease his oppression of this school, he (Lord Stanley) would publish a certain letter which had passed between them. The action of the Board of Education was treason against a Government which was supposed to be passing an Education Bill to preserve some shreds of religious instruction in the country.
      THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, the facts relating to this school are as follow:—The Holyhcad British School was built in 1848, and for some time past the Board of Education have considered that the buildings were
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      not satisfactory for school purposes. After several adverse reports on the premises by the Inspector, the Chief Inspector, Mr. Legard, was asked to make a special report in June of last year. Mr. Legard visited the school, and pronounced the buildings to be wholly unsuitable and inadequate. He said that the boys' department was ill-constructed, uncoiled and in a bad condition structurally; that the class-room, owing to its lack of width, was quite unsuited for teaching, and there was no adequate playground. The same general condemnation applied, though less strongly, to the girls' department. The infants' room was equally unsatisfactory, and it would be a mere waste of money to attempt to bring the buildings into conformity with modern requirements. In consequence of this Report, the Managers were informed, on the 21st June, 1901, that the Board's recognition of the promises would cease on 30th April, 1903. The Managers have recently informed the Board that they are unable to provide new premises, and the Board have therefore called upon the School Board to consider what provision will be required to replace the school when it is closed in May next. Your Lordships will therefore see that the statement of the noble Lord that this school has been condemned solely 011 account of the inadequacy of the playground is altogether without foundation. The school has been condemned on account of the general inadequacy of the structure for the purposes of a large school. There is also, I need hardly assure your Lordships, absolutely no foundation for the insinuation that this action on the part of the Board of Education is due to what I think the noble Lord called the "spite" of the Vice President of the Council. The proceedings have been initiated, not by the Vice President, but by the Board's Inspector, and the action of the Vice President in the matter has been purely ministerial. Although I took considerable pains to do so, I was quite unable to follow the reasons given by the noble Lord for the alleged spite entertained against him by the Vice President, on whose behalf I think I can say that ho would not have the slightest objection to the publication of any correspondence which may have passed between the noble Lord and himself on the subject.
      LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYthought the question of this school might well be left over to the new authorities to be set up by the Education Bill.
      THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: If the Education Bill passes, it will not in the least relieve the Board of Education from the responsibility of satisfying itself that the buildings in which the education is imparted, and for which the Government grant is paid, are adequate for the purpose. The authorities would have no power to continue to recognise a school which was condemned as inadequate.
      House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.