Lords Sitting of 24 July 1902

NEW PEERS.
Victor Albert Francis Charles, Lord Churchill, K.C.V.O., having been created Viscount Churchill of Rolleston, in the county of Leicester, was (in the usual manner) introduced.
Algernon Bertram Freeman-Mitford, C.V.O., C.B., having been created Baron Redesdale of Redesdale in the county of Northumberland, was (in the usual manner) introduced.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  GREENOCK; AND PORT GLASGOW TRAMWAYS (EXTENSION) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
  Bill read 3a (according to order).
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): The whole of the Amendments to this Bill which stand in my name are, with one exception, merely of a drafting character. The one Amendment which does not come in this category has been asked for by the Postmaster General, and it provides that in the ease of the tramways sot up under this provisional order the Post Office shall have the same right to contract for the conveyance of mails on those tramways as they have under the Act of 1893.
  Amendment moved—
  "In Clause 11, page 10, at the end of the Clause to insert as a new Sub-section: 'The provisions of the Conveyance of Mails Act, 1893, with respect to the conveyance of mails on tramways by tramway companies shall apply to the conveyance of mails by the company by means of any vans employed by them for the carriage of parcels on roads.'"—(Lord-Balfour of Burleigh.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Drafting Amendments agreed to.
  Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (SUBWAYS AND TRAMWAYS) BILL.
  The King's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
POST OFFICE SITES BILL,
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
  Reported without Amendment.
  GARSON AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS AND ELECTRIC SUPPLY (TRANSFER) BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENTS) BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  CAVEHILL AND WHITEWELL TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Read 3a with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed and returned to the Commons.
LONDON, TILBURY, AND SOUTHEND RAILWAY BILL,
  WHITECHAPEL AND BOW RAILWAY BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
  ABERDEEN SUBURBAN TRAMWAYS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
BRYNMAWR AND WESTERN VALLEYS RAILWAY (VESTING) BILL,
  LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE RAILWAY (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL,
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISICNAL ORDERS (No. 6.) BILL,
      SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS (LICENCES) (IRELAND) BILL.
      Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
House in Committee (according to order); The Amendments proposed by the Select Committee made; Standing Committee negatived; Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment, and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
PORTPATRICK AND WIGTOWNSHIRE JOINT RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, to be printed, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee. (No 162.)
RETURNS REPORTS ETC.
  NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Annual report of the Commissioners for the year 1901.
  CONGESTED DISTRICTS BOARD (IRELAND).
  Report of the Board, for the year ended 31st March, 1902.
  CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.
  Forty-sixth report of His Majesty's Commissioners; with appendix. Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  SEA FISHERIES ACT, 1868 ORDERS FOR FISHERY GRANTS, 1901–1902).
  Report of the Board of Trade under Part III. of the Sea Fisheries Act, 1868.

  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP.
  Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, dated 14th July, 1902, applying:—

  I. Section 116 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1902, to factories and workshops in which the making of (1) Locks, latches, and keys; (2) Chains, anchors, and cart gear; is carried on.

  II. Sections 107 and 108 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, to factories and workshops in which the making of chains, anchors, cart gear, locks, latches, and keys is carried on.

  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  Trade Report: Annual Series.

  No. 2860. Russia (St. Petersburg);

  No. 2861. Portugal (Chinde);

  No. 2862. China (Canton).

  AGRARIAN OUTRAGES (IRELAND).
  Return for the quarter ended 30th June, 1902.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (PROCEEDINGS).
  Return for the month of March. 1902.
  BRITISH AND FOREIGN TRADE.
  Memorandum on the comparative statistics of population, industry, and commerce in the United Kingdom and some leading foreign countries.
PETITION.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Petition in favour of; of the Good Templars of Nottingham; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee with further Amendments. The Report of the Amendments made in Committee of the Whole House, and by the Standing Committee, to be received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 159.)
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for the better prevention of Corruption, was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 160.)
NEW FOREST (SALE OF LANDS FOR PUBLIC PURPOSES) BILL,
  COMMONS REGULATION (SODBURY) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
  EDUCATION ACT, 1901 (RENEWAL) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 161.)

  COOPERS HILL COLLEGE.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked the Under Secretary for India what the Secretary of State intended to do with Coopers Hill College, whether he would take any steps to secure fair play in India to the Coopers Hill men, and whether, now that the college was almost entirely devoted to the military and engineering instruction of British and Colonial students, the Secretary of State, as guardian of the interests of the Indian taxpayer, would claim a refund by the British Exchequer to India of the cost of Coopers Hill College. The noble Lord said that the Government of India was entirely disconnected from His Majesty's Government. The expenses of the India Office were paid for by India, and

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  therefore he did not see that there was anything to prevent His Majesty the Emperor of India from continuing the Secretary of State for India in office after the other Members of the Government had given up their seals, except the fact that the English Treasury was continually sponging on the Indian Exchequer, which perhaps made it necessary that the Secretary of State for India should always change with the Government. He might have visited Coopers Hill, and been introduced to the President, but for the sake of freedom of speech he had not done so, because on one occasion after a long conversation with the late Lord Beacons-field on the subject of his book "Lothair," Lord Beaconsfield had said something in confidence, and afterwards he (Lord Stanley) did not remember what point was said in confidence, and so felt tongue-tied as to the whole conversation. He was aware that the noble Earl the Under Secretary would give a negative answer to the last, Question on the Paper, but the noble Earl would have to prove that India still had an interest in the college. Some history of the college might be gathered from the speeches delivered by its presidents and by Secretaries of State for India at the yearly public day of the college in July, when a portion of the students left at the end of the course of study; and he desired as much as possible to confine his remarks to their testimony. The college was founded under the auspices of the Duke of Argyll; it was sufficient to say this to establish that the college was intended for the benefit of India and with a view to economy. He could not help thinking that the best way to make engineers was to adopt the method in vogue in the case of architects and lawyers, and place them in the office of a man who was already eminent in the profession; but, as it was, a college was decided upon. In 1875 Lord Salisbury expressed his satisfaction, and that of all those connected with the college, at the successful results achieved, but complained, in the course of his remarks, that some of the students thought, when they had once got to India, that all their exertions wore over, and that they had nothing to do but repose on their laurels. The speeches of
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  Lord Salisbury were the best in the collection, for he took more trouble than any other Secretary of State to go into detail, his knowledge of railway management enabling him the better to understand the subject. Lord Salisbury said—
  "Whereas very great proficiency is shown in the knowledge of Buddhist and Hindoo architecture, the same proficiency is not shown in estimating the value of bricks and mortar. Now, far be it from me to say a word indicating the faintest disrespect for Buddhist and Hindoo architecture, but in the relation to the Government of India in which I happen to stand, you will, perhaps, pardon me if I attach more importance than you seem to do to the excellence of estimates in architecture, because I attach importance to the exercise of that economy of which accurate estimates are the foundation."
  Other complaints of a similar nature had been made of the want of knowledge of the first rules of arithmetic on the part of these students. In 1881, the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council, then Lord Hartington, in announcing the throwing open of the college to the kingdom at large, said of the college that—
  "It had been entirely dependent on India, and it had given back to India almost all the men it had drawn to that institution. Circumstances had rendered it necessary to reduce the number of engineers to be sent out from this branch of the public service for some time to come…. The college had taken a step this year in the direction of independence. It had now a Board of Visitors, among whom were some of the most distinguished engineers of the present day…. The college was now about to invite to its walls all comers, and would offer to the kingdom at large, and the colonies, as well as to India, the opportunity for securing a training in that institution,"
  This measure was good, so far as it went, to increase emulation, and to maintaining a full number of students. The noble Duke went on to say that it would he a source of great regret to him if the reduction in the number of appointments in India, hereafter to be offered to the students, should cause a cessation of the connection between the college and the Indian Public Works Department. The noble Duke also said he felt some wonder that the students had time for anything else but to be examined. Lord Salisbury had also commented several times on the effects of over-pressure put upon students. In July, 1881, a teacher of Hindustani ceased to be employed at the college, and the last examination in Hindustani and Indian history was held in July, 1882. This was a greater

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  breach with India and Indian interests than the opening of the college to all comers. It would not do for those who managed the college to shelter themselves under Lord Salisbury's words in 1875—
  "Hindustani, it had been said, opened up the path between the English and the natives of India; that was all very well, but not so to have an explosion of anger in Hindustani…. All who went out must remember that on them was reposed a vast responsibility."
  There was no doubt that Hindustani did contain a great number of very bad expressions in the way of objurgation, but, if that was the reason for ceasing to teach Hindustani, why did the authorities not fall back on Persian, which was not open to this objection, and was spoken by educated people in Northern India? It was a language worth studying for its literature, and it would be a stepping stone to acquiring Hindustani. The India Office represented some of the best and many of the worst qualities of the Anglo-Indian. Two years ago the Secretary of State limited the appointments of Indian students to two a year; they could not call that keeping up the college for the sake of the India Office. At the last public day—in 1900—the President of the College, Colonel J. W. Ottley, R.E., said that fifteen students had received commissions that year in the Royal Artillery, and he advocated offering a couple of Royal Engineer commissions annually, in addition to half a dozen commissions in the Royal Garrison Artillery. Colonel Ottley also mentioned that the training of telegraph students at Coopers Hill had been severely criticised by the authorities in India. That seemed to have been the principal defect in the instruction. The India Office had stated two years ago that the students at Coopers Hill were insubordinate. He thought Colonel Ottley deserved to be congratulated on the fact that he had been President of the College for two years, during which no complaint of insubordination had arisen. Coopers Hill College compared favourably in this respect with Sandhurst, which had a bad reputation long before the recent case of incendiarism, He suggested that the President of Sandhurst should be retired; that Colonel Ottley, who had done so well at Coopers Hill, should succeed him; and that an old Coopers Hill man, Mr. de Winton,
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  who had been promoted to the chief engineering position under the Madras Government, and whoso appointment was referred to by Lord Wenlock at the Annual Meeting in 1898, should be appointed President of Coopers Hill College. Mr. de Winton was a civil engineer and not a military man, which would be an advantage. He would say in passing that he thought the thanks of the country were due to the Duke of Northumberland and to Lord Hampden for their recent protests against the methods of militarism, and for upholding civil justice. He hoped the noble Earl would be able to give some information on the subject of forestry. In 1894 Lord Reay, the then Under Secretary, advised the engineers and foresters to endeavour to carry the people with them, and he said—
  "The engineers could not execute any work satisfactorily unless they had the support of the native officials; the foresters would find among the people, even those who could not read and write, a most astounding knowledge of the nature of the forests."
  Lord Wenlock, speaking in 1898 in the absence of the Secretary of State, said great tact and skill would be required by those who joined the forestry, and their zeal would probably be cooled by the collector, who would have to consider the ideas of the natives who cared more for their cattle than for the forests. He (Lord Stanley) had consulted two ex-Bengal civilians, who told him that there was as much to be said for as against the forestry laws; but, in a letter he had recently received on the subject, from an ex-official from another part of India, the writer described the Forestry Department as a necessary evil, and the most hated of any throughout India. This was owing to this Department aiming at making money, its cutting off the villagers and their cattle from the springs and employing people other than local men who oppress the villagers and levy blackmail from them. He thought that Mr. Groom, the Professor of Botany at Cooper's Hill was too good for the place and for foresters, and that he should be offered the post of Director of Kew Gardens on the next vacancy. Asked what he thought about the Coopers Hill men, the writer said he had known many of them in India, and they were most enthusiastic in their profession. It could not be asserted

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  with any appearance of truth that the College had had that beneficial effect on the Indian Public Works Department that its founders had a right to expect. The construction of the Bengal Railways, even of the most recent, and the consequent floods and malaria close to Calcutta, proved how defective the engineering had been. He believed that the cause of this had been that the Coopers Hill men had never had fair play, and that they were kept down and kept out of all more responsible appointments by the Royal Engineers. In 1886, the President, Sir A. Taylor, compared the training of the Royal Engineers with that of the Coopers Hill men; their preliminary education was not the same. The general drift of opinion was in favour of the Coopers Hill men, as far as regarded their preliminary training; but, on the other hand, it was said that the Royal Engineers could, in consequence of their strict military training, be more fully relied on for carrying out their orders. In some cases, such as insufficient outlets for rain water, remonstrance with headquarters might be better than military obedience. One way of giving the Coopers Hill men fair play and an opportunity of showing what they could do, would be to employ them on work that was much needed, the increase of accommodation for third class passengers at many of the stations of the State Railways. Such work would test not only their skill in building, but also their capacity for attending to estimates and contractors' figures.
  He was sorry Lord Reay was not present. If he had been, he would have asked him why he expressed joy at the fact that Coopers Hill students bad not been hampered by the study of any Latin. Cicero's Oration against Verres, and Juvenal's Satire on Proconsuls, would be useful to Indian officials. He contended that it would be grossly unjust to charge India with the cost of the college, and then to make use of it for other than Indian purposes, especially now that Lord George Hamilton had so reduced the appointments of native Indian engineers, and that in 1900 the President announced that fifteen students had received commissions in the Royal Artillery, and that the Indian
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  Public Works Department had received so little benefit from the college. The Secretary of State could plead the great amount of work he had to get through as an excuse for not attending the public day at Coopers Hill College this year; but, in that event, he hoped the noble Earl the Under Secretary would be charged with the duty, and that, in his speech, he would state how many Indian students were now to be found at that college.
  THE UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The EARL of HARDWICKE): My Lords, I have striven very hard during the noble Lord's speech—some portions of which I regret I could not follow—to arrive at the actual points on which he desires information. But I am bound to say that, with one or two exceptions. I am unable to see how in any way the remarks he has made affect the Question on the Paper. With regard to the first part of his Question, last year various changes were made in the constitution of the college, and during the past year a considerable sum of money has been spent on improvements, both outside and inside the college. So far as the Secretary of State can state his views at this moment, the college is intended to continue to discharge the work for which it was originally started. As to the second part of the Question, the noble Lord expressed the opinion that the Coopers Hill men were not treated fairly, owing to the fact that the Royal Engineers were given all the best appointments in the Public Works Department of India. The facts are entirely contrary to that statement. The Royal Engineers have been for a very long time a decreasing element of the Public Works Department, and there is no question now of any unfairness or interference with the rights of Coopers Hill students. As a matter of fact, of the twelve officers who rank as chief engineers in the railway, irrigation, roads, and building branches of the Indian Public Works Department only one is a Royal Engineer. I have taken some pains to get the statistics on this subject. I think the noble Lord must be thinking of a time twenty years past. It is perfectly true that there was then a certain grievance. In 1881 the total number of men employed in the Public

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  Works Department of India, including Bombay and Madras, was 990; of that number 253, or 25 percent., were Royal Engineers. In 1891 the total number employed in the department was 887, of whom 103 were Royal Engineers. The number of Royal Engineers was therefore reduced in that year to 12 per cent. In 1901 the total number employed was 768, of whom 74, or only 9 per cent., were Royal Engineers. The Coopers Hill College began to supply men to the Public Works Department of India in 1873, and now the pupils are filling up all the different grades. But there were men who were appointed under covenants before the Coopers Hill College was started, and these men are naturally the seniors of the department. At the present time the majority of the posts in the secretariat are held by Coopers Hill men. With regard to the last part of the question, it is perfectly true that when there has been vacant accommodation a few Colonial and other students not intended for the Indian Government service have been admitted to the college; but the fees paid by those students cover the cost of their education, and therefore no charge is thrown upon the Indian revenue. Then, again, during the last two or three years it is also true that a few commissions have been given to students in the Royal Engineers and in the Royal Artillery, and this is also considered by the Secretary of State to have a very wholesome effect, as it raises the keenness and the standard of education in the college. It must be remembered that these commissions have been given wholly owing to the fact that great pressure had to be put by the War Office to recruit officers for the South African war, and to the fact that suitable men were at hand in the Coopers Hill College. This has in no way inflicted a hardship on other students, and in no way has it been a burden on the revenues of India. If it is intended—I do not say it is—to give commissions to a certain number of students annually, it is quite possible that the Secretary of State for India will come to some arrangement with the War Office to receive a certain sum of money to provide for the additional cost that may be put upon the college; but that, of course, is a matter on which I
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  can express no opinion, because, so far as I know, there is no intention annually to give commissions to the students at Coopers Hill. When the noble Lord states, as he does in his question, that the college is almost entirely devoted to the military and engineering instruction of British and Colonial students, he states what is quite incorrect because, with these very few exceptions, the college is entirely devote to the education of men for the Government service in India. The president of the Irrigation Commission in India, who has recently returned home, stated semiofficially that he is immensely struck with the esprit de corps and ability shown by all the Coopers Hill men with whom he came into contact. With reference to the noble Lord's concluding remark, I may say that I believe it is the intention of the Secretary of State to be present at Coopers Hill College on the public day this year, and 1 may accompany him.

  SOMALILAND.
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, in rising to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any further information with regard to affairs in Somaliland, I do not propose to trespass for more than a few moments on your Lordships' time, although the kindly latitude which seems to be granted to some Members in asking questions might encourage me to unduly prolong my remarks. Somaliland has been very much increasing dining the past few years. It is a country which I have visited and of which I have a considerable amount of knowledge. Some few years ago, in the company of Colonel (now General) Paget, I traversed districts of the country which are now, I believe, in a state of considerable unrest. At that time we travelled with the consent of the then Foreign Secretary, my noble friend Lord Rosebery, who stated that he would not help us in any way, but he advised us to make friends and not treaties. That was the spirit in which we went into the country, and I believe, from what I have heard since, that our expedition was remarkably successful. We had not to fire a single shot in defence of our lives. I do not wish to give the impression that I consider this country a white man's country, for I may tell the House

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  that, starting as we did into the wilds of a vast region well equipped — we had ponies, donkeys, camels, and two dogs (the latter were eaten by panthers), and everything we could desire—we returned to the coast after many months' wandering, with no ponies, no camels, and only one donkey, which we described as the immortal ass. We formed the highest opinion of the natives; they are brave, trusting, and thoroughly reliable. I am very glad I can address my remarks to my noble friend, whose hospitality on two occasions I enjoyed in India. We have heard of a punitive expedition which has taken place. Although, of course, granting the usual bravery and gallantry of our native levies, led, and always well led, by British officers, yet I fear the result of that expedition has been negative, for see by the public journals that the Mad Mullah still exists and flourishes like a green bay tree. There is no parson in your Lordships' House who has had a greater experience of Mad Mullahs than the noble Marquess the Foreign Secretary. What my noble friend does not know about Mad Mullahs is not worth knowing. My noble friend knows, as I know, how rapidly rumours fly through India. In Africa it is the same, apparently by wireless telegraphy. I will give an instance. When I was in Khartoum I was told that in the dark days of the Tugela, rumours reached there and Cairo that things wore not going well with us, and if it had not been for the courage, determination, and downright pluck of Lord Cromer and Sir Reginald Wingate, a chapter might have been written in the history of Egypt in the blood not only of white men but, perhaps, of white women too. As to the Mad Mullah, I should like to know from my noble friend whether he is taking some steps which will check the career of this madman.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE TOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, my noble friend asks me for some further information with regard to affairs in Somaliland, and I take it that when he speaks of further information, he means information that has not yet been given to the public. I notice that he speaks of information which he had derived from the public Press; but, as I daresay many of your Lordships are aware, the history of the events in which
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  he takes an interest has, up to a certain point, been given to the public on authority in the shape of a Blue-book, which was presented in March last and which carried the chronicle up to the end of February. It is set out in the Blue-book that during the summer of 1901 a force under Colonel Swayne attacked the Mullah and inflicted upon him two very severe defeats. Those defeats I cannot say were of a crushing character, but they were of a severe character. The first of them is described in the Report of Colonel Sadler, the Consul-General, with whom I have no doubt my noble friend, is familiar. Describing the first battle, Colonel Sadler says the result of these operations had been that three determined attacks in force were repelled with severe loss, the force of the Mullah being completely broken up, and the remnants of his force driven in hot pursuit out, of the Protectorate. Writing in July of last year of the second action, he says that a severe defeat had been inflicted on the Mullah and his followers by native levies commanded by Colonel Swayne. The Mullah's camp was burned, his cattle captured, several of his relatives killed, and he and his forces had been again driven back with heavy loss and scattered in every direction, the pursuit being carried on till it was useless to proceed further. We certainly hoped that the severe lesson which had thus been taught to the Mullah would have produced its effect; but at the same time I am bound to admit that our advisers on the spot from the first feared that, he might be able at a future time once again to concentrate his forces and give us further trouble; and that was what happened. I may say that at the time it seemed to us very unwise, after these two actions, that the pursuit should be pressed into the waterless country into which the Mullah had retired, which, by the way, was within the Italian sphere of influence, and not within territory which we had a right to enter without a previous arrangement with the Italian Government. In the month of December last we heard that the Mullah was again upon the war path, and we heard in particular that he was attacking and inflicting severe punishment upon the Ishak tribes, over whom

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  we had assumed a kind of protectorate, and who deserve in every way the description which the noble Lord gave of the best of the natives in that country. It was impossible for us to allow these tribes to be further persecuted, and, moreover, it was clear that if the Mullah were allowed to overrun the country without let or hindrance, any prospects of the development of what small trade such a country affords would suffer very seriously. We accordingly prepared for a renewal of operations. We gave Colonel Swayne reinforcements and the additional officers for whom he particularly asked, and we arranged that a British ship of war should patrol the coast with the object of preventing the entrance of arms, which were sure to find their way into the hands of the Mullah's forces. On this occasion the Mullah declined battle and retreated once again into the arid region known as the Haud. This time we thought that it was not desirable to leave him alone even in that arid region, and Colonel Swayne is at this moment engaged in carrying on operations for the pursuit of the Mullah's forces. I think I may say that the experience of the previous year has shown us that it is absolutely necessary to inflict exemplary punishment upon this dangerous chieftain. We also feel that we owe it to the tribesmen to protect them from further ill-usage, and in the interests of trade it is also necessary that some steps should be taken to ensure the maintenance of peace in the Somali country. We have undertaken these operations this year under conditions much more favourable than those which were present when we were engaging Mullah in 1901. In the first place, we have arrived at a satisfactory arrangement with the Italian Government, which prevents our movements from being hampered owing to divisions between their sphere of influence and our own. We have an Italian officer attached to Colonel Swayne's force, and what is still more satisfactory is that the ships of war of the two Governments are co-operating upon the coast, in order to put down the traffic in arms. We have equipped small local vessels for this purpose; we have instituted a system of searches at the ports on the coast, and
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  we have been successful in seizing several cargoes of arms intended to be smuggled up to the front. The traffic in arms has been one of the most serious difficulties with which we have had to contend. I may mention to your Lordships that discarded arms of a certain class were to be bought recently at a price of about 1s. each in Europe. These arms were resold by dealers on the coast at the rate of about 15s., and were finally sold to the tribesmen for 45s. a piece—a very lucrative arrangement for those engaged in the traffic, but one which seriously aggravates the trouble which we have to encounter. The last reports are to the effect that for the moment that nefarious traffic has entirely ceased. We hear from Colonel Swayne that the Mullah is losing a large number of his men by desertion, and that the health of the troops is good. I hope that before long we may be able to inflict such a chastisement on the Mullah that the Somali country, which my noble friend knows so well, and in which he takes so great an interest, will be relieved permanently of the evils which the Mullah's presence has constantly brought to it.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.