Lords Sitting of 21 May 1901

The Lord Bishop of Durham took the Oath.
The Lord Sudley (E. Arran), sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

West Surrey Water.

Caledonian Railway.

Kettering Urban District Water.

Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Various Powers).

Llandrindod Wells Urban District Council Water.

Richmond Gas.

Stroud Gas.

North-Eastern Railway.

Also the Certificates that the further proofs required by the Standing Orders Committee in respect of the following Bill have been given:—
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London) [H.L.].
And also the Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with:—
London County Council (General Powers).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  CITY AND NORTH-EAST SUBURBAN ELECTRIC RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Petition for additional provision; of the promoters of the City and North-East Suburban Electric Railway Bill; together with proposed Amendments and clause annexed thereto; read and referred to the Examiners.
  BARROW-IN-FURNESS CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  MANCHESTER AND LIVERPOOL ELECTRIC EXPRESS RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  The King's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  ELLAND GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL.
  The King's consent signified; and Bill reported with Amendments.
  DOVER CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with Amendments.
  HEYWOOD AND MIDDLETON WATER BOARD BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with Amendments.
GLASGOW AND RENFREW DISTRICT RAILWAY TRANSFER BILL.
  HORLEY DISTRICT GAS BILL.
    LONG EATON GAS BILL.
    Read 2a, and committed.
    TEES VALLEY WATER BOARD BILL.
    Read 2a, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
WELLS CORPORATION WATER BILL.
  DUBLIN ST. JAMES' GATE BREWERY TRAMWAYS BILL.
    TENDRING HUNDRED WATER BILL.
    Read 2a, and committed.
BROADSTAIRS AND ST. PETER'S WATER AND IMPROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
  SOUTH LANCASHIRE TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]

    CHESTERFIELD IMPROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
    RODGERS' PATENT BILL [H.L.].
    Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

BINGLEY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  BRITISH GAS LIGHT COMPANY BILL.

    BURTON-UPON-TRENT CORPORATION BILL.
    DERBYSHIRE AND NOTTINGHAMSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
    DUBLIN (EQUALISATION OF RATES) BILL.
    GLASGOW AND SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
    IRISH PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH BILL.
    LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE RAILWAY (DEARNE VALLEY JUNCTION RAILWAYS) BILL.
    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
    METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANIES (AMENDMENT OF ACTS) BILL.
    PEMBROKE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (COUNTY OF DUBLIN) BILL.
    SWANAGE GAS AND WATER BILL.
    TOTTENHAM AND HAMPSTEAD JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL [H.L.]
Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
Committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 92 and 93 be suspended; and that the time for depositing petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House at Whitsuntide, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the recess.
EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (ACTON) BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]

    PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
    GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.].
    EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.].
    Read 2a (according to order).

MILITARY LANDS PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
Report by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons—
I. That the provisions of—

The Loch Leven Water Power Order

are of such a character that they ought to be dealt with by Private Bill and not by Provisional Order.
II. That—

The Edinburgh Corporation Order,

The Greenock Corporation Order, and

The Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway Order,

may proceed as Provisional Orders.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 85.)

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  AFRICA, No. 3 (1901).
  Correspondence relating to the murder of Mr. Jenner and the Ogaden Punitive Expedition.
  COLONIES.
  Miscellaneous: No. 16. Selections from Colonial Medical Reports for 1898 and 1899.
  ARMY (MILITIA).
  Militia Training Return, 1900.

  TRADE REPORTS.
  Annual Series—
  No. 2603. Morocco (Tangier and district, for the year 1899).
  No. 2604. Portugal (Goa, for the year 1900).
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PRISONS (RULES FOR LOCAL PRISONS).
  Draft of rules proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Prison Act, 1898—

  I. With regard to the dietary of convicts.

  II. With regard to the dietary of prisoners.

  TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.
  Minute sanctioning the subjects to be taught under Clause 8 of the Technical Instruction Act, 1889, for the county of Cardigan. First minute.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  COUNTY COURTS (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee with Amendments. The Report there of to be received on Friday, the 14th of June next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 86.)
  LUNACY (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment, and to be read 3a on Friday, the 14th of June next.
NEW BILL.
  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (APPEALS) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Supreme Court of Judicature Acts (in relation to Appeals and Divisional Courts) was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 87.)
  SOLICITORS BILL [H.L.]
  Amendments reported (according to order), and Bill to be read 3a on Monday, the 10th of June next.
  PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  FOREIGN POST OFFICES IN TURKEY.
  LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I beg to ask my noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a question of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether he is in a position to make any statement with reference to the dispute with the Porte in connection with the foreign post offices, and whether, in the event of an arrangement being arrived at, he will insist upon the same privileges being accorded to this country as are already enjoyed by other Powers. I have no intention of detaining the House on this question, for I have several times brought before the notice of the Foreign Secretary the case of Salonica, where the British mercantile community are placed at great disadvantage as compared with other foreigners in consequence of the difficulty experienced in regard to their post offices. In view of the recent autocratic and unexpected conduct of the Turkish Government with regard to this matter it is plain that a favourable opportunity has occurred for settling an old question, and I trust the noble Marquess will be able to give me some assurance on the subject.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): The matter to which my noble friend has referred is engaging the earnest attention of the Powers concerned. His Majesty's Government are fully determined to insist upon sufficient reparation for the conduct of the Turkish officials, and upon a formal and satisfactory undertaking in regard to the future. We shall not regard any arrangement as satisfactory which fails to give to this country, in respect of postal facilities, a position equal to that enjoyed by other Powers.

  CHINA AND THE POWERS—PRESENT POSITION.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information as to our position and that of the other Powers in China, and

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  as to the progress of the negotiations with the Government in the country. For the second time I rise to ask an important question with regard to foreign affairs on the eve of a holiday. I think I may perhaps congratulate the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the fact that at all events on this occasion his conduct will not be called in question in another place on account of answers being given here instead of there, for I understand that already a question has been asked elsewhere on this subject, and been answered at some length. On this occasion I have not put what my noble friend called a series of conundrums to him, but I have asked him a general question on the subject of our position in China. In particular, I wish to know how far the Powers who are acting in concert in China have advanced towards the settlement of the question of the indemnity—a question which is important as bearing on the future of China. We have seen in the papers, though we hardly know whether those statements are authentic or not, that very large sums indeed have been claimed by various Powers. We have heard that this country has modified its claim, having regard to the future position of China. I venture to say that if the Powers are trying to get from China the utmost that China can give they may be doing a very ill turn to the future good government of that country. If severe or excessive terms are pressed there will be nothing to satisfy any claims that may have to be made in consequence of renewed attacks on property or person which may occur in the future; for I am afraid it can hardly be expected that the settlement will be so satisfactory that in future no claims of that sort can arise. With regard to the sources of revenue on which the indemnity might be secured, I would point out that the amount to be raised from maritime customs is a very important matter in relation to our trade and the trade of other nations. It is important, therefore, that this should be settled on a thoroughly safe and satisfactory basis, without crushing and overwhelming China. The noble Marquess referred to that tax which we know under the name of likin—a very important tax as affecting
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  the interior government of China. He pointed out the difficulties there would be with regard to it, and yet everybody knows that likin, as it is at present levied, is a great impediment to free commerce in that country.
  I should like to know whether the Powers have considered what should be done with regard to furnishing proper funds to the provinces, as well as to the Imperial Government, the former being in many points almost independent of the Imperial Government. The governors of the provinces, especially those of the Yang-tzse, have done important work in, supporting law and order. Two of them are reputed to be men of advanced views who have advocated reforms in their provinces. I should like to know whether they have exercised this good influence, and, if so, whether the Powers have given them material support as against the exactions which may have been forced upon them by the Imperial Government. It seems most desirable that such independent Viceroys should be encouraged, and if possible that their revenues should be put upon an independent footing, so that they should not be obliged, in order to find ways and means, to resort to methods which are quite foreign to us in this country.
  Then, there is another point. The Powers in China have never been in a condition of actual warfare with China. No war has been declared, but there have been, as we know, serious actions, and from time to time we have read of the probabilities of attacks in distant provinces; by some if not all the Powers, and to that is attributed to a great extent the extreme slowness in getting law and order restored in that country. I should like to know whether there are likely to be many expeditions—which I presume are punitive expeditions—into the distant provinces in the interior, and whether we may hope that in a short time there will be a Government established that shall once more take charge of law and order in the country. Then there is the question of the railways. First of all there was the Tien-tsin incident, where for some time the sentries of Russia and of this country were close to each other, and the greatest anxiety prevailed as to what might occur. Negotia

  729
  tions have since taken place with St. Petersburg; and I should like to hear whether the Government are still satisfied with the position of affairs there. It has been said that there have been difficulties, that the Russian Government have been very busy in using some of the land claimed by the English company on the opposite side of the Pei-ho, and that they have occupied part of the land opposite the English settlement belonging to the Government. That may be an exaggerated statement, but we would like to know how far the negotiations have been successful.
  Next there is the question of the Northern Railway north of the Great Wall. In this case English interests under special agreements were accepted on the general understanding that Russian influence with regard to the railroads should be paramount in that district, while our interest should be paramount in the Yang-tzse Valley. I understand the arrangements were that these railroads should remain as Chinese lines under the control of the Government of China, and there should be no power to mortgage them to any non-Chinese Power. It is known, however, that the Russian Government for military purposes have, as is believed, occupied this line; and I would be glad to know whether there has been any satisfactory conclusion of that occupation, or whether assurances with which the Government are satisfied have been given. There is also the question of Niu-chwang, a place in which we have large interests, larger than any other country. The Russian Government occupied in a civil and military way that city, and I believe they gave assurances that it was of a temporary kind only. I would be glad to know whether any change has taken place, and whether the Government are still satisfied with the position there. The same may be said with reference to Manchuria. Accounts have lately appeared in the press about the occupation by Russia of two islands 100 miles from Port Arthur, or some protest on their part against our ships touching there, and I would like to have some explanation of the situation. Another incident which has caused some anxiety was the German bridge incident, where some guards on a German bridge fired
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  on a tug-boat carrying British colours. I hope to hear that the incident has been exaggerated, and that no serious consequences will arise between us and Germany. I should like to obtain some information with reference to the action of the Korean Government in removing Mr. Brown, an English subject, who for a long time had the management of the Customs in that country.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I recognise the right of the noble Earl to ask me for a further instalment of the information which I gave him before the Easter holidays with regard to the important matters on which he has touched. I think I can tell him, to begin with, that, although the progress of these negotiations has not been particularly rapid, we are, in my estimation, very considerably nearer than we were to that termination of our entanglement in China which I am sure he desires to arrive at as earnestly as we do. We have remained in that country in order to endeavour to obtain compliance with the terms of the Joint Note which was handed to the Government of China by the representatives of the Powers at Peking. The noble Earl has touched on some of the conditions which were enumerated in that Note. He did not mention in particular one to which I referred when I last addressed your Lordships—the question of punishments. I shall not, therefore, take up the time of the House by referring to the point except for the purpose of saying, with regard to the punishment of the principal offenders, a list of whom I gave to the House, that the matter stands very much where it did when I made my observations, with this difference, that the execution or compulsory suicide of six of these persons has been obtained, and not of five as I then stated. The remainder have been degraded or banished, except in the case of two or three, who are reported to have died. There remains another class of culprits whose punishment we desire very much to secure. I mean the persons who are responsible for some of the worst atrocities committed in the provinces of China. The representatives at Peking lave demanded the punishment of a number of these. The number for

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  whose death, banishment, or degradation we have asked is 107. We have not yet received a reply to the Note containing that demand, but we shall press for reasonable satisfaction in regard to the matter. There is another form of punishment which sounds somewhat grotesque in English ears, but it is one to which I understand very great importance is attached by all those who are familiar with the conditions of life in China. It appears that every young Chinaman aspires to enter the Civil Service of his country in some capacity or other, however humble, and one of the severest punishments which can be inflicted on a district is temporarily to interrupt what I may call the Civil Service examinations, which are held at all the important centres of population. The suspension of these examinations has been demanded for five years in several important towns. I have seen complaints made as to the insufficiency of the retribution which we have been able to obtain. I am bound to confess that in some respects it does seem to me to fall short of what we might have desired. But I should like to put it to your Lordships that the mere exaction of a number of death sentences is not the only form of deterrent punishment which can be inflicted upon the people of China, or upon that part of the Chinese community which was concerned in these events. For really deterrent and exemplary punishment we may look to the protracted occupation of the capital, to the permanent retention of Legation guards and military ports, and to the large indemnities which the Powers are requiring. We, at any rate, are not prepared to keep our troops an indefinite time in China, or to postpone for an indefinite time the moment when something like normal conditions will be restored in that country, merely for the purpose of adding to the tale of heads which will be counted when our demands are complied with.
  I come now to the indemnities, which are probably the most important matter dealt with in these negotiations. We have arrived at this stage—that the Powers have now been able to put in a claim in which the total amount of the indemnities demanded by them—demanded, I mean, both for public and
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  for private purposes—is set out. That total has been freely stated in the newspapers, and it is certainly very large. It reaches no less than 450,000,000 taels. The Powers have received from the Chinese Government a reply to that demand, a reply in which, while reference is made to the magnitude of the sum asked for, no positive statement of inability to pay is put forward. On the other hand, offers are characteristically made for a settlement, which would fall considerably short of satisfying so large a demand as that I have described. The discussion of that matter is still in progress. I have said in this House and elsewhere that His Majesty's Government were in favour of moderation in respect of these demands. But at the same time, if the representatives of the other Powers concerned have satisfied themselves, both as to the propriety of these claims and as to the ability of China to meet them, it is not possible for us to take upon ourselves to mitigate the total of the claim. I should like to suggest to your Lordships that it is not only by mere reduction of the total amount that indulgent treatment can be accorded to the Chinese Government. There are other ways of facilitating the payment of the indemnities which are open to us, and of those I will say a word in a moment.
  In compliance with the noble Earl's request I may, perhaps, describe briefly the attitude which we desire to take up in regard to this part of the negotiations. We earnestly desire, if possible, to avoid any arrangement under which China might be compelled to contract separate obligations with individual Powers—separate obligations, I mean, secured by special assignments of Chinese revenues or of Chinese territory. I need not dwell on the objections to such a course. We earnestly hope that the Powers will continue to act to get he; and that, as they have dealt with other problems by means of joint action, so in this financial settlement they will be content to base their demands on common principles, to satisfy them from common sources, to accept securities which shall be common to them all, and to arrange that if China should make any default the necessary payment should be enforced by common action.

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  With regard to the mode in which China might satisfy these claims, I suppose that from our point of view, the ideal arrangement would be that China should herself obtain the money, pay it us, and close the transaction. But it is perfectly clear that the unassisted credit of China would not enable her to go into the market and procure a sum anything like that which the Powers now demand of her. We must therefore dismiss altogether the idea of an unguaranteed Chinese loan. It has been suggested that the case is one in which a Chinese loan might be collectively guaranteed by the Powers concerned. That is not a proposal which at all commends itself to His Majesty's Government. We do not think that we should be justified in coming to Parliament and asking them to pledge the credit of this country for the purpose of facilitating the payment of these vast indemnities upon easy terms—indemnities of which, probably, not more than one-ninth represents the sum to which the country would itself be entitled. We are obliged to regard this matter as one of business; and that does not seem to us at all a business-like proposal. Besides, I am told by those whose acquaintance with these subjects is much greater than any to which I can pretend, that our experience of joint guarantees in the past has shown that they are extremely inconvenient arrangements from a political and international point of view.
  The plan which we have ventured to suggest for the consideration of the Powers concerned is this. We propose that China should pay to the Powers concerned bonds representing the share due to each of those Powers, and that those bonds should be extinguished in a term of years by payment of principal and interest; for the service of those bonds we think that it should be possible to ear-mark certain sources of Chinese revenue, the yield of which might be paid at frequent intervals to a board or council whose business it would be to receive the money and distribute it to the creditor-Powers. Such a board would have to be constituted with the consent of the Powers concerned; it would, of course, be merely a receiving and distributing board, and would not be directly concerned in the imposition or
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  collection of Chinese taxes. It seems to us that the advantage of such an arrangement would be this—that if China should happen to make default, she would make default not to any one Power but to the Powers collectively, as represented by the board; and we should hope that the Powers would be induced to agree in that case, if action were necessary in order to compel payment, that the action should be joint and concerted action, and not the action of individual Powers. It is clear that if in pursuance of such a plan as this we were to accept payment from China in bonds at their face value, and also if we were able to make some arrangement, which His Majesty's Government would be prepared to entertain favourably, for not enforcing the full amount of these annual payments at once—it is clear that in that case we should very greatly improve the position of China and render it far easier for her to meet our claims than if she were driven to the expedient of a loan.
  As to the sources from which the necessary revenues might be provided, I expressed in March our strong objection to a large increase of the Imperial maritime customs. We remain of that opinion. Your Lordships know how preponderant is our share in the commerce and in the carrying-trade of China; and we feel that, it being our duty to watch over the interests of British trade in that part of the world, we should not be justified in allowing British trade to be made a milch-cow for the purpose of facilitating the payment of these large indemnities. We are ready to agree to a revision of the duties which would bring them up to a full 5 per cent. ad valorem; but we hold that the larger increase which has been suggested in certain quarters could be agreed to by us only as part of an arrangement which would secure to the commerce of this country and of other countries as well countervailing facilities and advantages which would fully compensate it for the additional burdens to which it would become liable. Such an arrangement might conveniently be made when we come to give effect to Article 11 of the Joint Note. That is the article under which the Chinese Government has undertaken to "negotiate regarding

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  Amendments in the Treaties of Commerce and Navigation which are considered useful by the Powers and also regarding other subjects connected with commercial relations with the object of facilitating them." When the time comes for those negotiations, if they progress satisfactorily, we shall be perfectly ready to discuss the question of a further increase of the Imperial maritime customs. But for the present purpose, and while the reforms indicated in Article 11, which will necessarily take a very long time to elaborate, are still remote from us, we cannot agree to anything above the 5 per cent. of which I have spoken.
  Then, closely connected with this question of indemnities is the question of the withdrawal of our troops from China. We desire to reduce as soon as we possibly can the large force which, at considerable inconvenience, we have kept in that country for some time past; and we have come to the conclusion, after discussing the matter with the Governments of the other Powers, that the time has come when some reduction may at once be made; 3,300 troops have accordingly been already placed under orders and will leave China immediately. But that is only a beginning. We expect that, as the season progresses, we shall be able gradually to make further reductions, and to leave in China only such a force as would be necessary to ensure good order during what I may call the period of transition—that is, before we are able to reduce our garrison to the bare number required for the legation guards and for the posts which are to hold the country between Peking and the sea.
  The noble Earl referred to the question of Tientsin, and the events which have occurred there. I was able to describe to your Lordships the circumstances under which, owing, I think I may say, to the good sense and moderation exhibited on both sides, we were extricated from a situation which had at one moment become extremely acute. How acute it had become your Lordships will understand when I tell you that at a particular moment two Russian sentries and two British sentries actually had their feet on the same sleeper of the railway line. The reasonable settlement of that incident always seemed to me very
  736
  satisfactory, because it holds out hopes that similar difficulties—and difficulties of that kind are apt to occur in cases of joint occupation—will be dealt with with similar moderation and good sense. What are the facts with regard to the Tientsin concession? It is an area of considerable extent, which I believe covers about a square mile. It stretches along the Pei-ho river, and abuts upon the railway station. This area was claimed by the Russian military authorities at first by the right of military conquest. We subsequently heard that it had been conveyed to them by an instrument signed by Li Hung Chang. Without at all attempting to discuss the history or the validity of the concession as a whole, one thing is, I think, perfectly clear, and I do not think that it is disputed by the Russian Government—and that is that this concession and, indeed, all concessions of the kind, are made subject to any pre-existing rights the existence of which can be satisfactorily proved. We believe that, within this area there are plots which had become the property of the Chinese railway administration prior to the Russian occupation. It was on one of these plots that this dispute with regard to the siding arose; and in reply to the question of the noble Earl, I have to say that within the last few days we have heard that at another point within the concession the Russian troops have been again asserting rights of ownership in a manner which the British military authorities do not consider they are entitled to. We have represented the matter to the Government of Russia, and we have not yet received a reply. But we hold, of course, that if one side is free to resume these exhibitions of activity similar freedom of action may reasonably be demanded by the other side. The case, however, seems to be eminently one for careful local investigation; and I hope that, now that the state of the negotiations appears to hold out some prospect of a diminution of the pressure which has existed, we may be able to obtain an investigation of that kind. Your Lordships will recollect that it was distinctly stated to us by Count Lamsdorff that when the troops were withdrawn from the railway siding, all questions of title and proprietary rights

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  were to be reserved for examination between the two Governments. Such an examination, we think, should take place, and we are perfectly ready to make it in a just and equitable spirit. With regard to the Northern Railway, to which the noble Earl referred, the position remains unchanged. The intramural part was handed by the Russians to Count von Waldersee and by the Count to us. The extramural part is still in the hands of the Russian military authorities, who have from the first stated that they were using it temporarily and for military purposes only. I hope before long to be able to lay Papers on the Table with reference to this question.
  Then the noble Earl said something with regard to punitive expeditions. There was a rumour the other day that Count von Waldersee was about to undertake [military operations on a large scale at some distance from Peking, and that the co-operation of the allied forces was desired. We were not informed of the scope of those operations, but we should certainly have been extremely careful, particularly at a moment when we were endeavouring to reduce the strength of our forces in China, how we allowed ourselves to become entangled in any military movement in the remoter parts of the province. But it has turned out, on further inquiry, that no necessity for those operations was found to exist, and therefore, so far as that matter is concerned, there is no question of a punitive expedition in which we would take part. I think I may assure the noble Earl that from the first we have made no secret of our objection to be drawn into any operations remote from Peking and the neighbourhood of that city. I believe that this is not peculiar to ourselves. I believe that that feeling was shared by other Powers, who desired to see the moment arrive when they could withdraw the forces now occupying northern China, or at any rate largely reduce them.
  The next point to which the noble Earl referred was the question of the tug which was fired at by some German troops on the Pei-ho River. When inquiry had been made we learnt that the officer in command of the German troops had expressed his regret for what occurred, and had given an undertaking that in
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  a similar case the use of fire-arms would not be again permitted. I hope we may consider that matter at an end. But our information at present is not very full, and we await further particulars.
  The noble Earl also asked me what I could tell him with regard to events that happened at the Elliott and Blonde islands. What happened was this. A British man-of-war went to these islands in pursuit of pirates. The Russian admiral on the station—I wish it to be understood that it was a Russian admiral and not the Russian Government—interposed. He made a protest, and attempted to warn off our ship. We were perfectly aware that under our treaty rights we were permitted to repair to these islands for a purpose of this sort, and we therefore instructed the naval authorities in northern China to disregard the protest; that is how the matter stands.
  My Lords, in regard to Manchuria, I think the noble Earl has watched the interesting communications which are made from time to time to the press, and he is probably as well aware as I am of the state of things. I will read to him a translation of a passage which appeared in the Messenger Officiel at St. Petersburg, on 6th April, which runs thus—
  "So far as the complete and definite restitution of this region"—that is, Manchuria—"to China is concerned, it is obvious that it can only be carried out after a normal state of things has been re-established in the Chinese Empire, and when a central and independent Government has been established in the capital, sufficiently strong to guarantee Russia against the renewal of the disorders of last year."
  The Russians remain in possession of Manchuria, and the position has not altered since that publication was made.
  The only other point to which the noble Earl referred concerned the two Viceroys of the southern provinces. As to that, I may say that we continue to entertain for those two distinguished men feelings of very high appreciation. We have on more than one occasion been able to obtain an expression of their views on important matters, and we have attached to those expressions of opinion the weight to which they were entitled. I do not think that the noble Earl will expect me to tell him what the advice was or how far it was followed. It is clearly desirable to be a little circumspect in publishing to

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  the world the opinions entertained by high Chinese functionaries, but we certainly shall continue to receive any advice from them gratefully, and we regard them as an important influence for good in that part of China which is under their government. With regard to support, I think I am right in saying that on one occasion material support was offered to them; but we were then assured that at that time they did not incur any personal danger, and it was not thought necessary to take any steps for their protection. I think I have noticed all the topics to which the noble Earl alluded; and I hope I have said enough to show him that something, at all events, has been accomplished in the direction of obtaining a settlement of these different questions; I earnestly trust that when the matter is again brought up in your Lordships' House, as no doubt it will be, your Lordships will find that we have not been unmindful of British interests, and that some further progress has been made in arriving at the end which we all so much desire.

  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, I rise for the purpose of presenting a Bill for the better prevention of corruption. It is a measure which deals with the same subject as that originally brought forward by the late Lord Russell of Killowen, which was followed by another brought in by the present Lord Chief Justice, Lord Alverstone. There is a general agreement that something should be done to check corruption, but that Bill went too far, and its arrangements were too complex. I could not, therefore, recommend the Government to accept that measure. Since last year, however, I have had full communication with my noble and learned friend, who is now satisfied that a much simpler and shorter form of legislation will achieve the desired object. The Bill which I present to your Lordships provides that—
  "(1) If any person—(a) being an agent, corruptly and without the knowledge of his principal, accepts or obtains, or agrees to accept or attempts to obtain, from any person, for himself or for any other person, any gift or consideration as an inducement or reward for doing or forbearing to do any act in relation
  740
  to his principal's business, or for showing or forbearing to show favour or disfavour to any person in relation to his principal's business; or (b) corruptly gives or offers any such gift or consideration to any agent; or knowingly gives to any agent any receipt, account, or other document in respect of which the principal is interested, which contains any statement which is false or erroneous, or defective in any important particular, and which to his knowledge is intended to mislead the principal, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding one year, or to a fine not exceeding £500."
  I believe that will effect, if not everything, at any rate a very great proportion of what is sought to be obtained by the more cumbrous, and, as I think, unworkable Bill which has been introduced in each of the last two sessions. It is a section which I and my noble friend the Lord Chief Justice are agreed will effect a very great improvement in the law. There are many trifling gifts, such as gifts to railway porters and the like, which were not within the ambit of the Bill, but the effort to keep them out produced a confused section which I confess I have not been able quite to understand. The object of the section is plain enough, but the language of it is such as to make it impossible to say that it would protect a person who made a gift to a railway porter from being liable to prosecution and a fine. That was felt to be a section which rendered the Bill ridiculous, and made it impossible to pass it, inasmuch as it was possible under that section for certain persons to take proceedings against anyone who had made a trifling gift of this character. One of the difficulties one has to deal with in a subject of this sort is the creation of a class of persons—I ought not to say creation, because I am sorry to say they exist in very considerable numbers already, but the creating for them of a new field of activity—I mean blackmailers. No one who is not concerned with the administration of justice has any idea of the extent to which that offence prevails. One reason for its not being so extensively known is that people have no conception of the degree to which a threat of proceedings will induce persons, owing to the timorous nature of mankind in respect to charges being made against them, to give way to the blackmailer, and, once they have become

  741
  victims, they struggle in vain against their persecutions. The Bill which I ask your Lordships to read a first time deals with that question. No one in his senses would suppose that it would be right to proceed in regard to such trifling sums as I have suggested, but the language of a statute if it is general must be applied, and we cannot avoid it directly. The mode in which this Bill tries to avoid such a possibility is by allowing no proceedings to be taken except with the consent of the Attorney General or Solicitor General. My noble and learned friend, whose long and distinguished career as Attorney General enables him to speak with authority on such a matter, has assured me that he is strongly of opinion that there will de no difficulty in asking the Attorney General to deal with such questions. The Bill contains only these two sections, and I believe that, if your Lordships are good enough to pass it, there may be a chance of something being done in this very necessary region of amendment of the law even before the present session closes.
  LORD ALVERSTONE: It may be convenient that I should state at once the course I propose to take. Your Lordships will remember that, in moving the Second Reading of my Bill, I stated that I was extremely anxious that the subject should be taken up by His Majesty's Government, for I am well aware that such an alteration of the law ought not to be made except with the sanction and upon the authority of the Government of the day. As your Lordships know, I was not responsible for the drafting of the Bill. I do not by that observation mean to cast any reflection upon the very learned Gentleman who drafted it, and least of all upon my predecessor, the great Lord Russell of Killowen, or on Sir Edward Fry, who, no doubt, gave him great assistance. The Bill, as I introduced it, had the sanction of a Committee of your Lordships' House, and I believe that very great labour was bestowed upon it. But since it was read a second time I have received a great many communications, and criticisms of a friendly character have been addressed to me by men of business who are in no way opposed to the principle
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  of the Bill. As my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has pointed out, the Bill as drafted proceeded on these lines—that it dealt with, I may say, nearly every transaction in which commission is paid, a gift or a promise made, but attempted to exclude such transactions as have been referred to by the Lord Chancellor, but it was found exceedingly difficult to frame a clause of exemption so as to carry out exactly the object in view. By the courtesy of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, I have seen the draft of his Bill, and I am satisfied that a very large percentage of the transactions which it is desired to stop would be hit by the Bill. I recognise that it is most desirable, in connection with such an alteration of the law, to proceed with great care, and that upon a Bill framed as is that of my noble and learned friend it will be easier, if necessary, to engraft subordinate or supplementary provisions than to attempt in the first instance to make the Bill absolutely perfect. I do not wish it to be thought for a moment that I at all go back from the position that I am extremely desirous of seeing something done in this matter, and I recognise the fact that it is almost impossible to hope that such a Bill as I introduced would get through during the present session. I will, therefore, not ask your Lordships to go into Committee on my Bill, but I propose to keep it on the Paper, so that, if it should be thought desirable that supplementary provisions should be introduced into the Lord Chancellor's Bill, I may submit them to the House. I sincerely trust that the Bill, which my noble and learned friend asks your Lordships to read a first time, will be passed, because I am satisfied that some alteration of the law is imperatively demanded.
  Bill for the better prevention of corruption, presented by the Lord Chancellor; read la; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday the 10th of June next. (No. 88.)

  ARMY REFORM—TRAINING OF OFFICERS—SERVICE MAPS IN SOUTH AFRICA.
  LORD LOVATrose to call attention to the state of the service maps now in use ay the Army in South Africa, and to the waste of material and public moneys

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  which had occurred by the appointment of not previously trained officers to the remount, railway, and other military departments; and to move to resolve that no scheme of Army reform will be complete which does not train a largely increased number of officers for extra regimental employ without denuding regiments actually on active service. General Hunter had stated in one of his despatches that the maps in use by the Army in South Africa were a danger to the troops serving in that country. When he (Lord Lovat) left South Africa, some four weeks ago, there had been no change for the better, and there seemed to be no prospect of a change for the better. The maps were so bad that it was really impossible to find the position of places on the maps at all; nothing under a range of mountains as big as anything there was in this country received official recognition in the maps. In October it was stated that there was to be a new set of maps. In the northern part of the colony they did get a few new maps with "h's" dotted here and there to signify houses, and with a few springs and dams marked; but that was the only change visible to the ordinary eye. Although inaccurate in every other particular, the old maps gave correctly the position of boundary fences, and the present issue was exactly the same in that respect, the wire fences being marked with great accuracy, but everything that was of military importance was left out as before. The disgraceful way in which the maps had been prepared had caused very bad feeling among the Army in South Africa. Columns were not infrequently asked to do things which were perfectly impossible, and which they would not have been asked to do it the Generals had been in possession of maps showing the exact position of the country. When it was announced that a discussion was to take place it was fully expected that the Army would have the small satisfaction of seeing someone in Pall Mall blamed in connection with the maps. But they had seen nothing but evasions and a complete whitewashing of the Intelligence Department, and were most dissatisfied in consequence. When the Army was still working in brigades there were intelligence officers who made regular road reports, in which
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  everything of military interest was entered. The last man he spoke to on leaving South Africa was an intelligence officer who had been out there for over eighteen months, and who informed him that nothing whatever had been done in the way of collecting these reports so that the Army could be informed as to future marches. He was aware that not one of the twenty or thirty maps of the Orange River Colony was reliable. Why should not the service send out to South Africa members of geographical societies who were accustomed to take observations and to obtain information for the purpose of preparing maps? He understood that men had been sent out at the beginning of the campaign to prepare a map of the whole country, but the number of mapdrawers was not sufficient for the columns, and they were therefore distributed about instead of being set about the work in a proper manner, as originally intended. Confusion also prevailed in that most important branch, the Remount Department. Senior officers, usually from the Militia, with absolutely no previous training, were appointed as figureheads, and Reserve officers were called upon to undertake this work whether they knew anything about it or not. What was the result? He had seen 130 horses sent out which had only 218 shoes between them. They had to trek a number of miles the following day, and they hobbled into camp absolutely worthless. On no less than three occasions he had known horses to be issued that were suffering from strangles and glanders. Things were not so bad now, because these officers, although untrained when they started, had had a year's experience.
  With regard to the railways, men were employed upon them who had no knowledge whatever of the work. He would mention two examples. The sole qualification of one man who was employed at a most important junction was that he had been formerly bugler in a Yeomanry regiment. Another man appointed had been connected with the Privy Purse in England. Presumably it was thought that he could count the fares quickly at the station, it being forgotten that soldiers did not pay when travelling up and down the State railway. The shunter ruled absolutely at

  745
  each station. On him depended entirely whether a train was ready to start in three hours or in eleven hours. Many of the shunters were pro-Boers, or, at least, were friendly disposed towards the Boers, and that, of course, affected the intelligence and despatch with which the work was executed. He thought that Volunteer officers engaged in railway work should be sent out to South Africa to look after the shunting. Many large employers of labour in South Africa had told him that three shillings a day was an absurd wage to pay to the black men, who were in no sense, though they pretended to be, trained drivers; and there was much dissatisfaction because the War Office was so lavish of hand in paying these men, while the soldiers received only the wretched shilling a day. With regard to meat contracts, he was aware that the contractors bought the cattle on foot at 3d. per pound, that the troops had the trouble of driving them in, and even of killing them, and had then to pay from 9d. to 11d. per pound for the meat. The result of putting large numbers of men to jobs which they did not understand was that many regiments were destitute of officers who had any knowledge of warfare, and the efficiency of the troops was lowered. The Seaforth Highlanders some months ago had only two captains, half of the companies being commanded by second lieutenants. The same thing happened in the case of the Cameron Highlanders. For some time the second in command was a man of only four years service, and he also had to do adjutant's work. The first time he (Lord Lovat) was in action, he acted, although a cavalry soldier with no knowledge of infantry drill, as adjutant and second in command of a thousand men. The latter were commanded chiefly by junior subalterns, who made a very bad job of it. In a nation like ours it was particularly necessary that we should have an increased number of officers. There was no doubt, from what we had seen in this war, that the ultimate strength of the nation lay with the untrained millions who were ready to fight for their country. We had splendid fields to draw from in Canada, in Australia, and in South Africa, but it was absolutely essential that we should have the officers necessary to train these men, and officers could not be made in a day.
  Moved to resolve, "That no scheme of Army reform will be complete which does not train a largely increased number of officers for extra regimental employ without denuding regiments actually on active service."—(Lord Lovat.)
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord RAGLAN): My Lords, before replying to the speech of the noble Lord, I would venture to compliment him on the very excellent work which his corps of scouts has done in South Africa, and to congratulate him on his safe return. When I first read the notice on the Paper, I thought it was fairly comprehensive. I now find that my original ideas of it were small. The noble Lord's speech ranged over a very large part of the conduct of the war in South Africa, but at this comparatively late hour I am not in a position to discuss the entire conduct of the campaign. I will, however, endeavour, as far as I can, to reply to the strictures of the noble Lord. With regard to the question of maps, at the beginning of the war a special map of the Orange Free State and surrounding country was prepared by the Intelligence Division and sent out for the use of the troops. No government survey existed, either of the Orange Free State or of the Transvaal, and maps, therefore, had to be based on the farm surveys to which the noble Lord takes such objection. There were also some hundreds of special reconnaissances of routes executed by British officers before the commencement of the war. After Lord Roberts assumed command, arrangements were made for the compilation of another map. Much local information was available, and, therefore, the new map was more complete than the original map sent out by the Intelligence Division. This map has been used in the field throughout the war, and we have laboured under the impression that it had proved very satisfactory. In addition, a large number of general maps have been supplied, such as Jeppe's map of the Transvaal, Bartholomew's map of South Africa, Russell's map of Natal, and special maps of Johannesberg and Pretoria. Criticism on the deficiency of the maps rests on a series of misapprehensions. The country is enormous, and there are no Government surveys in existence.

  747
  I think it is not the primary business of the home Government, nor would it be at all desirable, that we should take upon ourselves the burden of executing surveys of the various colonies; it is equally obvious that it was impossible to survey states in the position of the Orange River Colony and the Transvaal previous to the war. We must naturally be dependent upon information to be collected from one source and another, aided, possibly, to a certain extent by military reconnaissances. The noble Lord complained that there is apparently no work being done with regard to surveys. I would inform him that two completely equipped survey sections were sent out to South Africa, and also two mapping sections, all under the direction of trained survey officers, and they have, I believe, done a large amount of work.
  With regard to the question of remounts, the number required in this war has so far exceeded expectations of any possible war that preparations could not have been made on a sufficient scale. It is impossible to imagine that if we are unfortunately drawn into war again, remounts on anything like the same prodigious scale will ever be required. As to the question of the training of officers in remount duties, no doubt it is the case that some officers were sent out who were not fully acquainted with the work, but if we had waited until we had got a complete system of thoroughly trained officers, including training in lassoing horses on the veldt, we should have had to wait an enormous time before it was possible to send out remounts. The same thing applies to a certain extent to the railways. The army was suddenly called upon to take over the administration of enormous distances of railways, and no doubt it is possible that the selection of men was not always the best; but I do not know why the noble Lord objects to the shunter having anything to say with regard to the administration of the station. I should have thought that the shunter was an exceedingly important man, and that his advice would be taken in cases of marshalling or sending trains backwards or forwards. The Volunteer railway officers to whom the noble Lord referred chiefly consist of the
  748
  managing directors and so forth of the large railway companies in the United Kingdom, and I am afraid the rates of pay which would be necessary to tempt those gentlemen to take over the railways in South Africa would exceed 3s. a day, which the noble Lord says is too much to pay to the black men. The whole question of the requisite number of officers is a difficult one. Either you must have in peace time a very large increase of officers, or you must trust to reserve officers of some sort or other. A large increase in peace time naturally means a vast increase in expense. In the case of reserve officers you have the difficulty, first of all, of training them, and, secondly, of keeping that training up to date. That difficulty is not peculiar to this country, for in every country in Europe there exists the difficulty of providing officers for the troops which may be mobilised in time of war. I can quite understand the noble Lord's anxiety on the question of maps. To him, as a commanding officer of scouts, maps are perhaps more important than to anybody else; but I cannot but think that it is somewhat doubtful how far it is advisable that these questions should be discussed by officers who are now on full pay. I doubt very much whether it is to the best interest of the army that these questions should be discussed in this way.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, I am sure your lordships listened to the speech of the noble Lord who raised this question with the greatest delight. We in this House may congratulate ourselves in having in him, not only a comrade who can hit hard on the veldt, and give a good account of himself there, but one who is also able to dilate upon his experiences in a graphic and at the same time in a moderate and temperate manner. I am sure I shall only be voicing the feelings of your Lordships when I say that we all hope that when he goes back in a fortnight's time with a new set of men, he will render as good an account of himself as he has done in the past, and that he will return to give a more cheerful account of South Africa. At the same time may I be allowed to put in a word for the request he has made to the War Office to be allowed to

  749
  take three companies of scouts to South Africa instead of two, as originally proposed? It seems to me that we have been able through the corner of the veil that Lord Lovat has raised to-night to see some of the reasons which have led to the great prolongation of the war, and the great cost at which it is being waged. Take this one question of maps. Of course South Africa is a huge country. I admit that; but still it is a country where we have been ourselves for a very long time. The Orange Free State and the Transvaal are practically surrounded by British territory, and, besides that, we have been engaged again and again in campaigns against both the Boers and the natives. It appears to me that during all that time we might have accumulated sufficient knowledge of the country to have been able to provide our troops with maps which would have been of some use to them, and which would have shown them where they could find water and what operations they might safely enter upon.
  The lack of proper maps in this war affords one more proof of what I can only call the blind over-confidence of Ministers in the way in which they entered upon hostilities. After all, the war did not come suddenly; it was expected. I suppose that if anybody had been asked during the last four or five years as to the most probable part of the world where the British nation might be involved in arms, he would have said in South Africa. During the first six months of 1899 the Government were engaged in making constant demands upon Mr. Kruger, and it was evident that, if the demands of the Government were refused, the end must be war. Therefore, when you were making these demands, you ought to have been making such preparations as would have enabled you to enter upon the war in the strongest way possible. Amongst other necessaries, we required maps, but the want of maps was just as great in Natal—you will find this mentioned in Sir Redvers Buller's despatch—as in the Transvaal and the Orange Free State. Again, why could not the Government have massed in Cape Colony sufficient troops to guard that territory from attack by the Boers in the first instance? Why did you not make sufficient arrange-
  750
  ments for your transport? One of the great difficulties in the war has been the deficiency in the number of horses. The noble and gallant Lord the Under Secretary for War said that the question of remounts was an enormous one. Of course it was. I suppose every sensible person knew from the commencement that this was a war which would have to be carried on by mounted troops. All the more necessary was it, therefore, to see that that particular department was put into the hands of competent men, and not given over to men who hardly knew a horse from a cow. The son of the Archbishop of Canterbury, for instance, was put in charge of the remount department, although he knew nothing whatever about horses. The great question is, How are you going to make the military forces of this country efficient in the future? It seems to me that the only way in which we can secure for this country an army, not very big, but very mobile, very efficient, of the best material, and armed in the best possible manner, is to show to our soldiers, whether they are men in the ranks, or whether they are officers, that we who employ them are going to be first-rate employers.
  What is the scheme which the Government have proposed? They are going to establish six army corps. The first will consist almost entirely of Regular soldiers; the second will consist mostly of Regular soldiers and partly of Auxiliaries; and the third will consist mostly of Auxiliaries and partly of Regular soldiers. The other three army corps do not exist very much in any way, except on paper, and it is extremely doubtful whether you will get the men. I do not agree with some of my noble friends that it is possible to do without a sufficient army. I believe you must have an army, but the only way in which you can get the men is by holding out a sufficient attraction to them to join, and the only way to do that is by treating them better than you do now. In the House of Commons the other day a question was asked as to the reductions which are made from the pay of the soldier for different matters, and it was admitted that 1s. 3d. a month is deducted for washing, a penny per month for hair-cutting, twopence per month for library subscription, twopence per month for the rifle club, and two-

  751
  pence per month for the cricket club The idea of making a deduction from a soldier's pay for a subscription to a rifle club is most monstrous. First of all, you want to make the soldier a good shot and it does seem to me that the Government might at any rate establish rifle clubs in which soldiers can learn that important duty, without having twopence per month deducted from their miserable pay. It is said that if we did not make these deductions it would cost the country £600,000 a year, which would work out at something like twopence a day to each soldier. I should very much like to see the Government begin by adding that amount to the pay of the soldier. When the soldier joins as a raw boy, by all means let his pay be low but as he increases in efficiency you will find that the best possible way to attach him to the service is by increasing his pay. By that means you would more and more attach to the Army old soldiers who could be trusted when the pinch came to give a good account of themselves. I agree that the system is wrong by which the best officers are taken from the regiments in the field at the time when their presence with the regiment is most required. How can you expect young soldiers to do well if they have not officers to lead them in whom they have confidence, and to whom they are accustomed? The reason that the corps which my noble friend commanded was able to do such excellent work was that they had good officers. It was a matter of chaff that some of his subalterns were bald-headed and grizzled, but they were men of experience, and were able to lead the men with success. A better system must be established in time of peace, so that when war comes the officers may be left with their regiments. There is often too much honour and glory given to the staff officer to the exclusion of the regimental officer, on whom the burden of th day falls. One thing has been proved in this war, that we can trust implicitly to our men and our regimental officers, and that whoever else has made mistakes, they have always been trustworthy. It does seem to me a pity that you do not better recognise the value of your regimental officers. The strong point of the new Army scheme is that you will under it, I hope, set up six centres of training for soldiers in this country. In those
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  six centres I hope opportunity will be given to officers to be trained, not merely in taking charge of the one particular arm to which they may be attached, but in handling infantry, cavalry, and artillery. Again and again in this war has it fallen to general officers to undertake this duty without having had previous experience of the work. I hope this is a matter to which the Government will give their attention, and if under this scheme facilities are given, we shall have gained one great advantage. I would suggest to my noble friend that he should not press his motion to a division, but be satisfied with having brought his case so well and so fully before the House.
  The MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am sure we on this side of the House desire to associate ourselves with the congratulations to the noble and gallant Lord on his safe return, and with the acknowledgments of the valuable services which he has rendered in South Africa. If after he has gone back to that country he should return to this House and occasionally do a little sniping at this Bench, we shall not take his criticisms amiss, but recognise that they come from one who knows what he is talking about. The noble Lord has opened a discussion which has already drifted over a great many subjects, and which would take a very long time to conclude if those subjects were to be at all fully handled. He has dealt with the question of maps, with the question of remounts, with the question of shunters on the railway, with the question of meat contracts, and with the question concerning the supply of regimental officers. The noble Lord who has just sat down went further still, and proceeded to review Mr. Brodrick's Army Scheme, and to tell us what he thought of the six army corps. My noble and gallant colleague spoke just now of the lateness of the hour. I can plead that excuse with perhaps slightly more plausibility than he could, and I feel sure no good purpose would be served by attempting a minute examination of all the points which have been raised. But as to the question of maps, I do not suppose anyone has ever contended that it is the business of the War Department to be prepared with a large-scale and elaborate map of every country in which His Majesty's forces are called

  753
  upon to serve. We have had an interesting little operation going on lately in Jubaland. I do not suppose the noble Lord opposite wouldhave expected that the Intelligence Department should have had Jubaland surveyed and mapped out with all the dwellings, if such things are to be found there. The theatre of war has been very extensive, and I believe it would have been physically impossible for the Intelligence Branch to survey the greater part of that area before hostilities broke out. The suggestion of the noble Lord, that as soon as a certain amount of contention arose between His Majesty's Government and that of the Transvaal we should have set to work to execute surveys, is one which would have been a little difficult to carry out. I do not think the survey parties would have been particularly well received if they had made their appearance in the neighbourhood of Pretoria. But though we said very little about it at the time, we did take what measures we could to obtain information about the topography of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State.
  The noble and gallant Lord also suggested that after the war broke out more might have been done by collating the very valuable road reports prepared from time to time by different officers. If there has been any failure to do that he must not lay it to the charge of those unfortunate persons in Pall Mall against whom he directed so much of his eloquence. There, again, I should conceive that in most parts of the country the position of survey authorities would have been extremely hazardous, and that it might not have been very easy to do what the noble and gallant Lord suggested. Most of the shortcomings to which attention has been called are all shortcomings of a kind traceable to one and the same source—to the fact that the magnitude of these operations was far greater than anyone foresaw. That we have always frankly admitted, and it is quite clear that when, comparatively early in the campaign, troops equivalent in numbers to three army corps had to be sent out of the country, a very great strain had to be put on all departments, with the result that the best men available had to be employed, even when they had not been
  754
  previously trained for their duties. As to the other shortcomings which have been revealed, His Majesty's Government have never attempted to contend that shortcomings had not been disclosed by, or that no lesson was to be learnt from, the war. I believe that the authorities at the War Office are fully determined that those lessons shall be turned to good account, and I feel sure that most of the points mentioned this evening by the noble and gallant Lord are points which have already attracted the attention of the Secretary of State and of Lord Roberts, and that his criticism will receive the attention which it undoubtedly deserves.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  THE ROYAL DECLARATION AGAINST ROMAN CATHOLICISM.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of SALISBURY): The motion standing in my name is the same as the one I have already submitted, and which your Lordships have accepted, with the solitary exception that it is in favour of a Select Committee to be appointed by this House, and not a Joint Committee to be appointed with the co-operation of the other House. The House of Commons, for reasons connected with its own business, do not seem willing to go into this inquiry, and, therefore, I think we had better go on with it by ourselves. I cannot think that if we can possibly avoid it we ought to allow an enactment so little creditable to our Statutebook to remain upon it without some modifications or improvement. I propose to submit the names as soon as the House reassembles.
  Moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the declaration required of the Sovereign, on his accession by the Bill of Rights (1 Will. III. cap. 2, s. 1); and to report whether its language can be modified advantageously, without diminishing its efficacy as a security for the maintenance of the Protestant succession."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  EARL SPENCER: I rejoice extremely, that the noble Marquess has thought it right to bring on this subject. I

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  stated my views in one of the first speeches made on this subject, and I think the terms in which the noble Marquess has framed his motion ought to meet the case without raising any great difficulty.
  On Question agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. [No. 89.]
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven of the clock to Monday, the 10th of June next, a quarter past Four of the clock.