Lords Sitting of 2 May 1901

EARL OF CLANCARTY.
Petition of William Frederick Earl of Clancarty, in the Peerage of Ireland, claiming a right to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland; read, and referred to the Lord Chancellor to consider and report thereupon to the House.
Arthur Foley, Lord Bishop of London, was (in the usual manner) introduced.
The Marquess of Normanby took the Oath.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  WEST AND SOUTH LONDON JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Petition of Messrs. Torr and Company, of No. 19, Abingdon Street, Westminster, parliamentary agents, praying for leave to present a petition of Owners, etc., in Park Lane, praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill, although the time limited by Standing Order No. 92 for presenting such petition has expired; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; and Standing Order No. 92 to be considered to-morrow in order to its being dispensed with.
  WIGAN CORPORATION TRAMWAYS, ETC., BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, no parties having appeared in opposition thereto; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; the orders made on the 18th March last and Friday last discharged; and Bill committed.
  LONDON (CITY) SCHOOL FOR ORPHANS OF FREEMEN BILL [H.L.]
  Reported without Amendment.
  SHREWSBURY GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with Amendments.
  GRANGEMOUTH WATER PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.] (No. 46.)
  A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the water supply of the burgh of Grange-mouth.
  HAMILTON BURGH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.] (No. 47.)
  A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the burgh of Hamilton.

  SCOTTISH PROVIDENT INSTITUTION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.] (No. 48.)
  A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Scottish Provident Institution.
  Were presented by the Earl Waldegrave (for the Earl of Dudley); to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, Section 7 (2)); read 1a and 2a: Committee negatived.

  MANCHESTER (MARKET STREET AREA) IMPROVEMENTS BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, that it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  CARDIFF RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Bill, on being reported, should be referred to the Chairman of Committees, in order that certain proofs and consents may be given in respect thereto; read, and agreed to: Bill reported from the Select Committee with Amendments; and re-committed.
  FINCHLEY AND HENDON TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Read 2a.
  GRAVESEND GAS BILL.
    HONLEY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (GAS) BILL.
      LONDON BRIDGE WIDENING BILL.
      Read 2a, and committed.
  GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed; The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  BURY CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed.
  ROYAL EXCHANGE ASSURANCE BILL [H.L.]
    ALBION STEAM COAL COMPANY BILL BILL [H.L.]
      CHESTER GAS BILL [H.L.]
      Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  HARROGATE WATER BILL [H.L.]
    LEEDS CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.]
      RIPON CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]

        HARROGATE CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
        Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills, viz.:

        E. Buckinghamshire,

        L. Barnard,

        L. Mendip (V. Clifden),

        L. Llangattock,

        L. Hawkesbury (chairman);

        agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Monday, the 13th instant, at Twelve o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

  CLYDE NAVIGATION DRAFT PROVISIONAL ORDER.
  Ordered, that the evidence taker before the Committee of this House on the Renfrew Burgh and Harbour Ex tension Bill, 1899, be referred to the Commissioners appointed under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland)
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  Act, 1899, to inquire into the Clyde Navigation Draft Provisional Order.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL [H.L.] (No. 49.)
  A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, and the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1890, relating to Clyde Bank, Crieff, Dalkeith, Dollar, Falkirk, Galashiels, Gourock, Jedburgh, Melrose, and Oban.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL [H.L.] (No. 50.)
  A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Alnwick, Ann-field Plain, Benfieldside, Consett, Hands-worth, Norton, Pickering, St. Austell, Shildon and East Thickley, and Whitley and Monkseaton.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 10) BILL [H.L.] (No. 51.)
  A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Blackrock, Dungannon, Kildare, and Waterford.
  Were presented by the Earl of Hard-wicke (for the Earl of Dudley); read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the, Examiners.

  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.] (No. 52.)
  A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Education under the Elementary Education Acts, 1870 to 1900, to enable the School Board for London to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts.

  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (BARNES, ETC.) BILL [H.L.] (No. 53.)
  A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Education under the Elementary Education Acts, 1870 to 1900, to enable the School Boards for Barnes, Hartlepool, Manchester, Merthyr Tydvil, and Waltham-stow to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts.
  Were presented by the Earl of Walde-grave (for the Lord President (D. Devonshire)); read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

  PAISLEY GAS PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
  THAMES AND SEVERN PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
  WIDOWS AND ORPHANS OF SOLDIERS AND SAILORS.
  The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered, except to Members of the Committee, until further order.
  LONDON UNDERGROUND RAILWAYS.
  Leave given to the Select Committee to hear parties interested, by themselves, their counsel, agents, and witnesses, so far as the Committee think fit: The evidence taken before the Select Committee from time to time to be printed for the use of the Members of this House; but no copies thereof to be delivered, except to members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2586. Spain (Consular District of Corunna).
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

PETITION.
  EDUCATION RATE.
  Petition that ratepayers may be allowed to allocate their rate to the support of voluntary schools; of inhabitants of Higher and Lower Tranmere and others; read, and ordered to lie on the

  MARRIAGES LEGALISATION BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD BELPER: My Lords, the object of this Bill is to remove disabilities due to various local circumstances. Doubts have arisen as to the validity of certain marriages solemnised in certain churches and places mentioned in the schedule of the Bill, and it is intended to remove those doubts. In some cases new churches have been used for the solemnisation of marriages without having been properly licensed. There is in the body of the Bill a reference to certain marriages which took place in the Church of St. Mary, Greenhithe, Kent. It was erroneously thought for some time that the two training ships moored in the Thames off Greenhithe were within the limits of the new parish of Greenhithe, and persons residing on board those ships had been married at that church. In October, 1899, the London Gazette contained an Order in Council properly comprising those ships within the parish of Greenhithe, and it is intended by this Bill to make those marriages legal which were performed before that date. Each parish concerned is specifically mentioned in the schedule of the Bill, as well as the dates of the marriages which it is desired to legalise.
  Bill read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  POLLING ARRANGEMENTS PARLIAMENTARY BOROUGHS) BILL [H.L.] POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY COUNCILS) BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  PRESENCE OF THE SOVEREIGN IN PARLIAMENT.
  Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to consider the subject of the Presence of the Sovereign in Parliament, do meet the Lords' Com-

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  mittee in Committee Room A on Friday next at Three of the clock, as proposed by their Lordships.

  REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.
  LORD NORTON: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will deal this session with the most urgent recommendations of the Home Office Report on Reformatory and Industrial Schools, particularly with what it calls the immediately needed amendment of the law relating to the collection of parental payments, which was a wholly unopposed part of the Youthful Offenders Bill which was dropped last session. I know that it may not be possible for a Bill including all those recommendations to be passed this year, but what I want particularly to know is whether, if it is found impossible to deal with all of them, a short Bill might not be introduced dealing with the particular point to which I alluded in my question—namely, the better collection than at present of parents' payments. It certainly is most mischievous that parents should be allowed, and even encouraged, to throw their children upon the streets, and so charge their care and education entirely on the public.
  I introduced in Parliament the first Bill on the subject of both reformatory and industrial schools, and I have had for over fifty years a good deal to do with the conduct of institutions of this kind, but I have no hesitation in saying that, in spite of the interest which I take in these schools and the great good which I know they have done, I would prefer to see them abolished altogether than that they should offer, as they do at present, an absolute premium on the neglect of children by vicious parents. The law should compel parents who have, by neglect, thrown the care of their children on the State to repay as much, at all events, of the expense inflicted on the public as the children would cost them at home. The present system tends to destroy that sense of parental responsibility which it is to the best interest of the country to maintain. Owing to the difficult and circuitous method of collecting payments, a very great number of parents escape altogether,
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  and the cost of collecting the payments that are made is so great that last year £4,000 was spent in collecting £26,000. What is wanted is that the children who are sent to these schools should have the cost of their maintenance made a charge upon the parents at the time, and the recovery of the payments should be made as easy as the recovery of similar payments under the Bastardy Acts, and—in the case of Scottish schools of the same nature—they should be recoverable by summary process.
  The other recommendations in the Home Office Report are very important, but not so urgent as this one, and I think it would be a great pity, if there is not time to deal with all of them, that we should lose this particular Amendment. It could be accomplished by a very short Bill, and one which would not meet with the slightest opposition. That it would not meet with opposition is proved by the fact that, though this Amendment was part of the Youthful Offenders Bill of last session, not one word was said against those clauses, the Bill being dropped for other reasons. Another recommendation of the Report was that reformatory and industrial schools should be recognised as one and the same institution. That, in my opinion, is a most important point. The two schools are used indiscriminately, and the treatment is so much alike that, going from one to the other, it would be impossible to detect any difference. The attempt to keep them distinct is fraught with a great deal of mischief. I should be the last to suggest that children who, through no fault of their own, but through the fault of their parents, have committed crime should not be punished. It is most important that they should be punished, but they should not be punished by education in the police department. Their punishment is now forbidden in prison, and should be separate from their education in school. Reformatory and industrial schools are simply schools for homeless outcast children. It is to the interests of the State, to say nothing of common charity to the children, that they should be educated, but to educate them by a penal system, keeping up in

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  their minds during the whole of their childhood a sense of criminality, is most disastrous, and the sooner the system is put an end to the better. I think this recommendation in the Home Office Report is, therefore, extremely important, if not so urgent as the one I am pressing upon the Government. Home Office schools are, in my opinion, an anomaly, for they cannot constitute a system of national education. To these schools the Home Secretary the other day wrongly gave the credit of the fact that many of the boys educated in them had distinguished themselves in the South African War, and that three of them had gained the Victoria Cross. Well, why should they not? They are not different from other boys, except in their early neglect, which possibly made them hardier, if not more courageous, and so far better soldiers than boys who had not gone through such hardships in their youth. The moral is that these boys, given a proper education, are likely to do as well and to be as well conducted as other children. I hope the noble Lord who will reply on behalf of the Government will give a sympathetic answer to my question.
  LORD BELPER: I am sure my noble friend will excuse me if I do not enter into all the matters to which he has alluded, many of which seem to me somewhat outside the question on the Paper. I can assure him that the Secretary of State for the Home Department is fully alive to the importance of amending the law in the direction proposed. There was, as my noble friend has stated, a clause in the Youthful Offenders Bill of last year for this purpose, and the Secretary of State has authorised me to say that he has drafted a measure, which he hopes to be able to introduce very shortly, which, in addition to other points, will contain this amendment of the law. Of course, my right hon. friend the Home Secretary cannot, considering the state of business in the other House, make any definite promise as to when the Bill will be introduced.
  House adjourned at ten minutes before Five of the clock till to-morrow, half-past Ten of the clock.