Lords Sitting of 29 March 1901

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. considered (according to order), and suspended for this day's sitting.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended, Bill read 2a (The Earl Waldegrave); Committee negatived; Bill read
3a, and passed.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

COMMISSION.
The following Bill received the Royal Assent: Consolidated Fund (No. 1).
House adjourned during pleasure; and resumed.

APPEAL COMMITTEE.
First Report from; read, and agreed to.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have not been complied with:—
Barry Railway.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the
Bideford and Clovelly Railway (Abandonment) Bill [H.L.]
ought to be dispensed with, and the Bill allowed to proceed, provided compliance with Standing Order No. 62 be proved before the Examiners.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the
London County Council (Tramways and Street Widenings) Bill
ought to be dispensed with, provided that Tramways Nos. 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 8A, 8B, 8C, 9, 10, 10A, 11, 11A, and 11B be struck out of the Bill.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the
West and South London Junction Railway Bill [H.L.]
ought to be dispensed with, and the Bill allowed to proceed, provided that the following clause be inserted:—
Nothing in this Act shall authorise the West and South London Junction Railway Company to enter upon, take, or use (except by agreement) any cellar or vault in or under any street belonging to or connected with any building, or the sub-soil under such cellar or vault, unless such cellar or vault or the building with which it is connected is described in the deposited Books of Reference.
Read, and agreed to.

BRISTOL, CLIFTON, AND WEST OF ENGLAND ZOOLOGICAL SOCIETY BILL [H.L.]
Reported without amendment.
ASPATRIA, SILLOTH, AND DISTRICT WATER BILL [H.L.]
Reported with amendments.
STRATTON AND BUDE IMPROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn; the order made on the 8th instant discharged, and Bill committed.
WORCESTER TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a.
WARKWORTH HARBOUR BILL [H.L.]
  PORTMADOC, BEDDGELERT, AND SOUTH SNOWDON RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]

    NEWPORT (ISLE OF WIGHT) GAS BILL [H.L.]
    WISBECH WATER BILL [H.L.].
    HARPENDEN DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.].
    LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
    SOUTH EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAYS BILL [H.L.].
    SOUTH WESTERN AND ISLE OF WIGHT JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
    LEEDS CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [H.L.].
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Dartrey be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee, in the place of the Earl of Lauderdale; and that the Earl of Dartrey be Chairman of the said Committee; read, and agreed to.

LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising—

1. The construction of light railways in the county of Lancaster, from Ormskirk to Southport;

2. The construction of a light railway in the county of Essex, between Kelvedon and River Blackwater;

3. The construction of light railways in the borough of Morley and the urban districts of Drighlington, Gildersome, and East and West Ardsley, in the West Riding of the county of York;

4. The construction of a light railway in the county of Kent, from Hollingbourn to Faversham;

5. The construction of light railways in the parishes of Hemsworth, Ackworth, and Badsworth, in the West Riding of the county of York;

6. The construction of a light railway in the county of Salop, from Cleobury Mortimer to Ditton Priors;

7. The deviation of a light railway authorised by the West Hartlepool Light Railways Order, 1897; and for other purposes.

Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

TRAMWAYS (CONSENTS OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
Petition against the Amendment of Standing Order No. 22, of Lewisham Corporation; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
COMMITTEE OF SELECTION FOR STANDING COMMITTEES.
Report from, That the Committee have added The Lord Fairlie (E. Glasgow) to the Standing Committee; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
PAISLEY GAS PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 29.)
PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 92 and 93 be suspended; and that the time for depositing petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House at Easter, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the recess.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  INDIA (ROYAL INDIAN ENGINEERING COLLEGE).
  Remodelling of course of instruction and retirement of certain of the professors and lecturers; Report of the Board of Visitors, dated 25th March, 1901, and Minutes of Evidence taken before them.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2:—
  THE EARL OF GLASGOW: My Lords, I beg to move the insertion of the new clause standing in my name. This is an excellent Bill, because it is by way of bringing the prison laws of Scotland up to date. It contains several improvements which have been already adopted in the English Act; but there is one very important omission, inasmuch as there is no provision for the classification of

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  prisoners. I understood the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland to say the other day that there was already a certain Amount of classification of prisoners in Scotland. I have made inquiries, but have been unable to ascertain that that is the case. There certainly is differentiation of treatment of prisoners, but so far as I am informed there is no such thing as classification. Classification of prisoners is a reform which was introduced in England at the instance of the Departmental Committee presided over by Mr. Herbert Gladstone in 1894. I think that Committee did better work, and brought forward more information with regard to prisoners, than any other Committee. They expressed the decided opinion that
  no adequate attempt had yet been made to secure a sound system of classification in local prisons, and pointed out that the ideal method of treating prisoners would be to secure a sufficient number of warders and attendants to enable the characters of all prisoners to be studied so that they could be treated in such a way as to leave the prisons better and soberer men. It was admitted that this was impossible, and that the next best mode of acting was that the prisoners should be classified, and that their punishment should be less rigorous, according to the nature of their crime. This system was adopted, and the Report of the Prison Commissioners for England for 1896–97 remarks on the satisfactory results which have followed the adoption of the system in England. Under the English Prisons Act there is a considerable classification of prisoners which does not obtain in Scotland. In fact, in Scotland at this moment if a man who is convicted of riding his bicycle on the footway does not pay the
  fine, he is sent to prison, and placed in the same category as habitual criminals. If a man fails to pay his dog licence, and is sent to prison, he is treated in the same way. In the English Act, in such cases, the onus is laid upon the Court of First Instance to sentence the defendant to be placed in the first, second, or third division. As this great improvement has been introduced in England, 1, for one, cannot see why it should not be introduced in Scotland. We in Scotland are very proud of our separate system of prisons, but we wish to see them kept up
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  to the mark, and not to fall behind English prisons, and I think it must be owing to some mistake that this clause has not been introduced into this Bill.
  Moved, that the following clause be added to the Bill—

  "(1) Prisoners convicted of offences, either on edictment or otherwise, and not sentenced to penal servitude or hard labour, shall he divided into three divisions.

  "(2) When a person is convicted by any court of an offence, and is sentenced to imprisonment without hard labour, the court may, if it think fit, having regard to the nature of the offence and the antecedents of the offender, direct that the be treated as an offender of the first division or an offender of the second division. If no direction is given by the court, the offender shall, subject to the provisions of this section, be treated as an offender of the third division.

  "(3) Any person imprisoned in default in payment of a debt, including a civil debt recovered summarily, or in default or in lieu of distress to satisfy a sum of money adjudged to be paid by order of a court of summary jurisdiction when the imprisonment is to be without hard labour, shall he placed in a separate division and treated under special prison rules, and shall not be placed in association with criminal persons, nor be compelled to wear prison dress unless his own clothing is unlit for use.

  (4) Any person imprisoned for default of entering into a recognisance or finding securities for keeping the peace or for being of good behaviour, shall be treated under the same rules as an offender of the second division unless he be a convicted prisoner, or unless the court direct that he be treated under the same rules as an offender of the first division."—(The Earl of Glasgow.)

  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My Lords, I acknowledge the importance of the subject which the noble Earl has brought before the House, and I recognise his right to speak on this subject on account of the service he rendered on a former occasion as a member of the Prisons Committee. I am sorry if I did not make myself clear the other night. I did not intend to say that we had classification by statute in Scottish prisons. But, as a matter of fact, we have in practice a classification which is in some respects more ample than that imposed by statute in English prisons. I agree with the noble Earl that a person who may be fined for riding a bicycle on the footpath, and who does not pay the fine, should not be obliged to associate with criminals who have committed serious offences. This

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  is a classification which, as a matter of practice, though not as a matter of statutory obligation, obtains in connection with Scottish prisons, and no person so sent to prison would be placed with habitual criminals. With regard to the Amendment, I regret that I cannot accept it as it stands. It is entirely quoted from the English Act of 1898, and, as such, in some respects, and particularly in some of its phraseology, it is not adapted to Scottish circumstances. There are four sub-sections. The first and third are not suitable for Scotland. In the first place, we do not wish to be bound by statute to have only three divisions of prisoners, and the law of debt and imprisonment for debt is so different in the two countries that sub-Section 3 would clearly not be applicable to Scotland.
  The second sub-section contains the main principle of the clause. It is a principle which is new, and I am in a position to say that I do not think the experience of it during the last two and a half years in England has been so entirely satisfactory that we would like to adopt it precisely in the same terms in Scotland. There are passages in the Reports of the Prisons Commission for England which I think would satisfy the noble Earl that, at any rate, there has not been sufficient experience to warrant us in accepting it simply on the English precedent. The sub-section would enjoin that there should be special treatment for two reasons. Firstly, on account of the nature of the offence; and, secondly, on account of the antecedents of the offender. That has been in some cases in England interpreted to mean that there shall be different treatment on account of the social position of the prisoner. The Prisons Commission in Scotland are entirely opposed to making any difference whatever on account of the social position of the offender. I am authorised to say, also, that the Lord Justice-Clerk would dislike any such enactment, so far as Scotland is concerned. On the other hand, I agree as to the importance of the point, and I am willing to adopt a clause in spirit the same as the second sub-section of the clause of the noble Earl. I am not in a position, as yet, to state the exact terms of the clause: but if the, noble Earl will withdraw the clause now I will undertake to bring up a clause in the
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  Standing Committee allowing special treatment if the nature of the offence seems to justify it.
  I would be inclined to leave a good deal to the discretion of the judge, but the direction I would be inclined to give him would be that he would be entitled to order special treatment for a prisoner, providing there was no criminal intent in the offence. That would apply to the case which has been mentioned by the noble Earl of a man fined for riding a bicycle on the footpath, or to an engine-driver or signalman imprisoned for a bona fide mistake, but a mistake which, ex hypothesi, would be likely to have disastrous consequences. I would further propose that the circumstances should be set forth under rules to be made by the Secretary for Scotland and laid upon the Table of Parliament. If that offer will satisfy the noble Earl, and if he will withdraw his Amendment now, I will undertake, before the Standing Committee stage, which, of course, cannot now be taken for some weeks, to bring up a clause which will embody the principles I have endeavoured to indicate to the House.
  THE EARL OF GLASGOW: In the circumstances I have much pleasure in withdrawing my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to. Bill reported without amendment; and recommitted to the Standing Committee.

  EDUCATION—GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS.
  LORD NORTON: My Lords, I beg to ask the Lord President of the Council if he can relieve those engaged in the conduct of national education of grave anxiety about the incomplete progress of his scheme of legislation by offering hope of an early day for the introduction of his promised Bill. The Code, which was only laid on the Table of the House last night, adds very much to the uncertainty of the position, and owing to the Easter holidays the Code will become law before we have any opportunity of discussing it in this House.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE):

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  My Lords, in answer to the question of the noble Lord I have only to state that it has been necessary for the Government to give further consideration to their proposals of last year, in the light of the judgment in the suit "Cockerton v. The London School Board" and discussions throughout the country on the question raised. I hope, however, that either in this or the other House we shall be able to introduce a Bill immediately after Easter. With regard to the observation of the noble Lord on the subject of the Code, I regret that the intervention of the holidays should at all curtail the opportunities for discussion, but he is in error in saying there will be no opportunity for discussion before the Code becomes law. After the Easter holidays there will be a week or a longer interval during which it will be open to any Member of this House to call attention to the subject.

  RIFLE RANGE NEAR WINCHESTER.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for copy of the letter of the Under Secretary of State for War to Mr. Myers, M.P., of the 15th January, 1901, on the provision of a rifle range near Winchester, and for any Reports on the arrangements for the rifle practice of the recruits at the Winchester Depot and the Yeomanry and Volunteers whose headquarters are at Winchester, also for the correspondence between the War Office and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners or other owners of land in reference thereto (The Earl of Northbrook); agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  PRESENCE OF THE SOVEREIGN IN PARLIAMENT.
  Commons message considered (according to order).
  Moved, That a Committee of five Lords be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons as mentioned in the said Message
  (The Lord President (D. Devonshire); agreed to.
  The Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  M. Cholmondeley.

  E. Spencer.

  E. Howe.

  E. Carrington.

  L. Rathmore.

  Ordered, That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a chairman.
  Then a Message was ordered to be sent to the House of Commons in answer to their said Message to inform them of the appointment of the said Committee by this House.

  WIDOWS AND ORPHANS OF SOLDIERS AND SAILORS.
  Commons message considered (according to order).
  Moved, That a Committee of seven Lords be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons as mentioned in the said Message
  (The Lord Raglan); agreed to.
  The Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  M. Bath.

  E. Dartmouth.

  E. Malmesbury.

  E. Westmeath.

  V. Hampden.

  L. Newton.

  L. James.

  Ordered, That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a chairman.
  Then a Message was ordered to be sent to the House of Commons in answer to their said Message to inform them of the appointment of the said Committee by this House.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five of the clock, to Monday, the 22nd of April next, a quarter past Four of the clock.