Lords Sitting of 24 June 1901

Preamble
An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Speech indicates revision by the Member.
The Earl Annesley took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

Golborne Gas.

Eccles Corporation.

Metropolitan Electric Supply.

Blackburn Corporation.

Brighton Corporation.

Wallasey Improvement.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
  Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the

  Cromer Water Bill

  ought to be dispensed with, and the Bill allowed to proceed.
  That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the

  Clyde Valley Electrical Power Bill

  ought to be dispensed with, and the Bill allowed to proceed, provided that the names of Sir William George Pearce, Bart., Francis Elgar, Robert Harvey, and Hugh Strain be struck out of the Bill unless their signatures to a printed copy of the Bill, as brought up to this House, be proved before the Committee on the Bill.
  Read, and agreed to.

  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (BARNES, ETC.) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.

  PETERSFIELD AND SELSEY GAS BILL.
  GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  LOWESTOFT CORPORATION BILL [H.L.].
  Reported with Amendments.

  KETTERING URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.

  CAMBRIAN RAILWAYS BILL.
  GLASGOW AND RENFREW DISTRICT RAILWAY TRANSFER BILL.
  MANSFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
  Committee to meet on Thursday next.

  DERBYSHIRE AND NOTTINGHAMSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
  The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn; the Orders made on the 14th instant and on Tuesday last discharged; and Bill committed.
  LLANDRINDOD WELLS URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL WATER BILL.
  The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn; the Orders made on the 11th instant and on Tuesday last discharged, and Bill committed for Thursday next.
  GLASGOW AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  ALDEBURGH CORPORATION (WATER) BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed.
  HUMBER COMMERCIAL RAILWAY AND DOCK BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed; the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

  SALFORD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  STOCKPORT CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.].
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  LEEDS CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Morley.)
  *THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, before this Bill is read a third time I ask leave to say a few words, on behalf of the county authority of the West Riding of Yorkshire, as to what occurred while the Bill was upstairs before the Select Committee. This is an important Bill for improving the water supply of the City of Leeds, and as such is, of course, favourably looked upon by the county authority; but it appeared to us that there were various minor points as to which objection might reasonably be taken and upon which safeguards were needed. Accordingly, the West Riding Rivers Board, as representing those interested in the rivers of the county, was instructed to prepare a petition against the Bill; but when the Bill came before the Committee, over which my noble friend Lord Hawkesbury presided, they refused the Rivers Board a locus standi to appear before them. We have been rather unfortunate in coming into collision with my noble friend, because some years ago, in a somewhat similar case—that of the Rochdale Water Bill—we were obliged to call in question in the full House the action of the Committee over which he presided. As a result of the discussion which then took place Standing Order No. 105D was added, which expressly gives county councils locus standi in cases in which the water interests of the county are likely to be affected. The West Riding Rivers Board is a large body, composed of eighteen members of the County Council, and twelve representatives of the great cities and county boroughs in the West Riding. When the matter came before the Committee the only argument that was used, so far as I can gather from reading the evidence, against the locus standi was that strictly the Board was only concerned with the actual pollution of the rivers; that is to say, unless there was a risk of foreign matters of an objectionable kind finding their way into a river through the provisions of the Bill, the Rivers Board had nothing whatever to
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  do with it. On the other hand, it was argued that, as a matter of fact, there was actual risk of pollution occurring through the cleaning out of the filter beds, etc., and it was also contended that abstraction of water from the river, interfering with its flow, would increase pollution. But what was argued with, I think, still greater force was that, a locus standi having been expressly given to county councils in this matter, a fortiori the Rivers Board, which is the county council plus the representatives of the great Yorkshire cities and towns, morally demanded a locus standi unless very strong reasons could be adduced against it. That argument does not appear to have appealed to my noble friend's Committee, and, so far as this House is concerned, there is nothing more to be said, for I do not propose to ask your Lordships to throw out the Bill, or even to recommit it. But I would point out that the locus standi of the Rivers Board was admitted on the Halifax Bill, where it was a case, not of pollution, but of interference with continuous supply; and also, if I remember rightly, in the case of the Rochdale Bill. My noble friend said, on the latter occasion, that the Committee had made an offer to hear the Rivers Board, although they showed themselves unwilling to hear the County Council. My object in bringing the matter before your Lordships is to make an appeal to my noble friend the Chairman of Committees to consider whether it would not be reasonable to amend Standing Order 105D, so as to put the admission of these great Rivers Boards beyond doubt. Our procedure upstairs has many merits, but certainly not that of extreme inexpensiveness, and anything which tends to concentrate opposition instead of encouraging a great number of petitions must be to the advantage of this House. I therefore ask my noble friend if he will consider, when he comes to make amendments in the Standing Orders, whether it would not be possible for him to include these great Rivers Boards, which are, for all purposes connected with water, the county councils of the counties in which they exist, in the Standing Order.
  *LORD HAWKESBURY: My Lords, I regret that I did not arrive at the

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  House till too late on Friday to hear this question discussed; but I was not aware that the noble Earl (Lord Northbrook) was going to raise it on the Third Reading of the Harrogate Corporation Water Bill. The noble Earl, however, has since told me the points he raised on that occasion, and, perhaps, I may be allowed to answer them at the same time as I reply to the remarks of my noble friend who has just spoken. I understand, from Lord Northbrook, that the first point he raised was that, in his opinion, the West Riding Rivers Board was included in the words of Standing Order 105 D, and, therefore, had a right to be heard. I cannot agree with the noble Lord on that point, and I do not think anyone who reads the Standing Order will take that view. I recollect the circumstances alluded to in which the Standing Order was amended—it was for the purpose of admitting County Councils. Nothing was said of the claim of Rivers Boards to be heard against such a Bill, and I think it was obvious that it was never intended to include them. As to the question of locus standi, which we disallowed, I may say, with regard to the first Bill—the Harrogate Corporation Water Bill—that the ground which was proposed to be taken by the promoters for their reservoir was entirely in the North Riding. Although, of course, the Committee would not refuse to give due weight to any arguments in support of the claim of the West Riding Rivers Board to a voice in the matter, in view of the fact that the water of the Pott Beck eventually reaches the river Ure, and flows thence to the Ouse, we could not help taking into consideration the fact that the North Riding Rivers Board had not intervened in the case, and that it was outside the jurisdiction of the West Riding Board. With regard to the Bill now before the House—the Leeds Corporation Water Bill—a portion of the proposed works was within the West Riding, and therefore (though this portion of the works has since been struck out of the Bill) the case was then different. The case of the Halifax Bill, which was before Lord Poltimore's Committee in 1898, was brought forward as a plea for
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  giving them a locus standi. That case was handed up to us, and I believe the reason a locus standi was then given was that the mill owners had the right of impounding the water on Saturday and Sunday nights, leaving the bed of the river dry in that interval, and it was proposed to continue that right in the Halifax Bill. That was a different case entirely from the present one, and, as Lord Crewe has said, it necessitated the appearance of the West Riding Rivers Board as the sanitary authority. At the same time it was brought before us in evidence that in the Barnsley case and also in the Sheffield case, where the conditions were different, a locus standi was not granted. I now come to our main reason for declining to hear the Board. The Rivers Board is a sanitary authority, and takes its powers under the Rivers Pollution Acts, 1876 and 1893, which were passed with the object of preventing persons putting solids, refuse, and other deleterious matter into rivers. There was nothing of that in this case, and, therefore, the Committee could not see, and I fail to see at the present time, any relevance in the appearance of the West Riding Rivers Board. It was urged that in cleaning the filter beds there might in the future be some pollution, but it appeared to us that if that should hereafter happen, then would be the time for the Rivers Board to intervene. As to the suggested alteration of the Standing Order, I cannot help thinking that it would be unnecessary, for I feel sure that no Committee would refuse to hear any evidence that might help them in coming to a decision. Besides this, the Standing Order, as it reads at present, may be useful in making these bodies consider carefully before rushing into opposition, and in preventing what in many cases may be a waste of the ratepayers' money. I therefore hope that the Standing Order will not be amended.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY): My Lords, I think there is no doubt whatever that my noble friend who presided over this Committee acted absolutely within his right in refusing to grant a locus standi to the West Riding Rivers Board. I do not think there can be any question

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  that the Rivers Board is not included in Standing Order 105 D, which gives to county councils an imperative locus standi. I have looked carefully through the proceedings of the Committee, and I think, from what my noble friend has just stated, and from what I have gleaned from reading the proceedings, that in this particular case no injustice or harm has been done by refusing the locus standi. At the same time, no doubt, there has been, as there always is in these cases, a certain amount of inconsistency in the way in which locus standi has been given to local boards in the past. There were peculiar circumstances in the Halifax case, which rendered it necessary, in the opinion of the chairman of that Committee, that the Rivers Board should have a locus standi. There are, I think, only three of these Rivers Boards in England—the Mersey Board, in Lancashire, and the boards of the North and West Ridings of Yorkshire. They exercise considerable influence, and, as administrators of the Rivers Pollution Acts, have even more powers than the County Councils. Except in these three cases the County Councils administer these Acts, especially the Act of 1876, and it was in respect of that qualification that the House thought fit to lay down, by the Standing Order which I have already quoted, that where waters in their districts were concerned they should be heard. It leaves no option to the Committee to refuse to hear them. I confess it seems to me that, in dealing with these very important bodies, which not merely represent the County Councils but the county boroughs within their area, it would be desirable for Committees to strain a point in listening to their evidence. I would venture, with all submission to the Committees, to suggest that where this occurs it would be desirable, as I have said, to strain a point to hear them. But as the application from such bodies for a locus standi are few in number, I do not think it is worth while to go so far as to alter the Standing Orders. If that were done in this case, I might be called upon to alter them to meet the cases of other similarly constituted bodies. I will, however, consider the matter carefully before the Standing Orders are altered in the present
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  year, but I trust that the expression of opinion which I have ventured to give to the House may have the effect my noble friend desires.
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, I am glad to hear, from the statement of my noble friend, that he considers that these Rivers Boards have some claim, at all events, to be heard before Committees on occasions of this kind. There are but three such boards, no doubt, but they are important bodies. The Rivers Board of the West Biding of Yorkshire is entrusted with very large and very difficult powers, for there are few things more difficult than the management which is necessary to prevent the pollution of rivers in manufacturing districts, and I should regret anything which would place it in a position which even appeared to be one of inferiority to the County Councils. In that event I think it would be inevitable that the County Councils would themselves petition, in which case, as the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees has pointed out, they would have an imperative locus standi. Inasmuch as this particular business has been handed over from the County Councils to the Rivers Boards, I venture to think that they should be placed upon the same footing as the County Councils in the matter of locus standi. I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Hawkesbury in deprecating the habit of some County Councils of petitioning unnecessarily against Bills, but it is not a good method of stopping that practice to deny a locus standi to a public body which has a claim, at all events on some occasions, to be heard.
  On Question, agreed to; read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  SWANSEA HARBOUR BILL.
  WINSFORD URBAN DISTRICT (GAS TRANSFER, ETC.) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (ACTON) BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.

  CALEDONIAN RAILWAY BILL.
  LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE RAILWAY) VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
  LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE RAILWAY (DEARNE VALLEY JUNCTION RAILWAYS) BILL.
  ALDERSHOT GAS AND WATER BILL.
  CLEVELAND AND DURHAM COUNTY ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Wolverton be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Earl of Shaftesbury; read, and agreed to.

  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 3.) BILL [H.L.]
  Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
  PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 72 and 82 be suspended for the remainder of the session.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bills reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a to-morrow.

  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order); Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order); the Amendments proposed by the Select Committee made; further Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.
  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL [H.L.]
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL [H.L.].
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL [H.L.].
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 11) BILL [H.L.].
  House in Committee (according to Order); Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL [H.L.]
  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.].
  House in Committee (according to Order); Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
  Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (POOR LAW) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  COMMONS REGULATION AND INCLOSURE (SKIPWITH) PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
  METROPOLITAN COMMON SCHEME (ORPINGTON) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bills reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a to-morrow.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL. (No. 135.)
  MILITARY LANDS PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL. (No. 136.)
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
  [PONTYPRIDD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL ORDER OPPOSED.]
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 3) BILL [H.L.]
  [CHERITON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL ORDER OPPOSED.]

  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 4) BILL [H.L.]
  [FOLKESTONE CORPORATION, GLOSSOP ELECTRIC, AND WEST RIDING ORDERS OPPOSED.]
  BEXLEY TRAMWAYS BILL.

  TOTTENHAM AND HAMPSTEAD JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.
  BINGLEY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  BRADFORD CORPORATION BILL.
  BURTON-UPON-TRENT CORPORATION BILL.

  KINGSTON-UPON-HULL CORPORATION BILL.
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills, viz.:—

  E. Abingdon,

  E. Radnor,

  L. Clonbrock (chairman),

  L. Hylton,

  L. Monckton (V. Galway);

  agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly; the Committee to meet on Monday next, at Twelve o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee,
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  with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2633. Venezuela (Cuidad Bolivar).
  No. 2634. Turkey (Tripoli).
  No. 2635. Portugal (Southern Portugal).

  GIBRALTAR (ADMIRALTY WORKS).
  1. Letter (with Inclosure) from Vice-Admiral Sir Harry Rawson, K.C.B., dated 30th March, 1901.
  2. Letter (with Inclosures) from Vice-Admiral Sir Harry Rawson, K.C.B., dated 16th May, 1901.

  INEBRIATES ACTS, 1879 TO 1899 (REGULATIONS FOR STATE INEBRIATE REFORMATORIES).
  General regulations for the management and discipline of State Inebriate Reformatories made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in pursuance of the Inebriates Act, 1898.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated 15th June, 1901, declaring that George Smith, engine driver, Royal Gun Factory, War Office, was appointed without a civil service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his department.

  PUBLIC RECORDS (ADMIRALTY DEPARTMENT).
  Eighth Schedule, containing a list and particulars of classes of documents which have been removed from the office of the Commissioners for executing the office of Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and deposited in the Public Record Office, but which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation therein.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

PETITION.
  DECLARATION OF THE SOVEREIGN AGAINST TRANSUBSTANTIATION.
  Petition for alteration of, of Roman Catholic British subjects resident in Rhodesia; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  QUEEN ANNE'S BOUNTY BOARD.
  The evidence taken before the Joint Committee from time to time to be printed, but no copies to be delivered except to members of the Committee, and to such other persons as the Committee shall think fit, until further order. (No. 134.)
  PURCHASE OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.
  CIVIL LIST BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE APPEALS) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee, according to Order.
  LORD HENEAGE: My Lords, I wish to call attention to Sub-section 3 of Clause 1, which provides that in the case of appeals under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1897 and 1900, the decision of the High Court shall be final, and leave shall not be given to appeal in any other Court. The Lord Chief Justice, speaking in this House the other night, said that in his opinion there ought to be an appeal. I should like to know whether the noble and learned Lord has considered the matter since the Lord Chief Justice spoke, and whether there are any strong reasons why this Act should alone be excluded from appeal to the House of Lords. It is a very complicated Act, and no one knows better than the Lord Chancellor that there have been a great number of appeals, in which the decisions of the lower Courts have been reversed.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, the noble Lord is in error in stating that this is the only Act which is excluded from appeal to the House of Lords. Appeals from the county courts are finally decided by the divisional court, and registration appeals cannot come to the House of Lords. In one sense I am rather pleased to find that the House of Lords has become a popular court of appeal, and that it is supposed to be a deprivation of the subject if there is no appeal to this House. When the Workmen's Compensation Act was introduced, the suggestion was that it would be impossible to allow cases to go to the House of Lords, because it would involve such expensive litigation. The idea of an appeal to the House of Lords was negatived as to Ireland and Scotland, but there was a blunder in the drafting of the Bill, and an ingenious person found out that by particular words in the schedule, and not in the body of the Act, there was an appeal to the House of Lords. The courts of appeal are being swamped by the number of appeals, and it was justly considered that the original design of this Act should be pursued, and that an appeal to the House of Lords should not be granted. For myself, I am reluctant to refuse the jurisdiction which this House is considered to have exercised so well. But the other side must be considered, where it is a question of expensive litigation, and where the number of appeals has been the subject of animadversion. Why this particular class of litigation should be made the subject of appeal to the final court of appeal, although it is, generally speaking, for small amounts, is a question with which I am not prepared to deal. I can only say that I will make no proposition myself which would allow an appeal to the House of Lords. I would remind the noble Lord that only last year, when the Workmen's Compensation Act was extended to agricultural labourers, it was expressly provided that there should be no appeal to the House of Lords. It seems to me that this sudden and extraordinary demonstration in favour of the jurisdiction of the House of Lords arises from the fact that in many cases this House has decided in favour of the workman; but I do not know whether the same opinion would

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  continue to exist if it should become our duty, as it may on many occasions, to decide against the workman. The general view is that it is undesirable in small matters to have litigation continued from court to court, thereby increasing enormously the expense of such litigation. This view becomes all the more important in the case of poor litigants. That is the view which has been taken, and I cannot say I entirely demur from it. Much must depend on the general feeling whether or not I accept an Amendment restoring the appeal to the House of Lords. It would, however, seem to me inconsistent with the course we have hitherto taken on the subject.
  Bill reported, without Amendment, and recommitted to the Standing Committee.
  House adjourned a five minutes past Five of the clock, till to morrow, half-past Ten of the clock.