Lords Sitting of 22 February 1901

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

Aire and Calder Navigation.

Albion Steam Coal Company.

Aldeburgh Corporation (Water).

Aldershot Gas and Water.

Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railways.

Alfreton Gas.

Arlesey Gas.

Aspatria, Silloth, and District Water.

Barrow-in-Furness Corporation.

Bath Gas Light and Coke.

Belfast Harbour.

Bethlem Hospital.

Bideford and Clovelly Railway (Abandonment).

Bideford and Clovelly Railway (Extension of Time), etc.

Bingley Urban District Council.

Blackburn Corporation.

Blackpool Improvement.

Bolton Corporation.

Bournemouth Corporation.

Bradford Corporation.

Bridewell Hospital.

Brighton Corporation.

Bristol, Clifton, and West of England Zoological Society.

Bristol Corporation Cemetery.

Bristol Corporation (Docks and Railways, etc.)

British Gas Light Company (Hull Station).

British Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company.

Broadstairs and St. Peter's Water and Improvement.

Burgess Hill Water.

Burton-upon-Trent Corporation.

Bury Corporation.

Bury Corporation Tramways.

Cardiff Corporation.

Cardiff Railway.

Central London Railway.

Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway (No. 1).

Charing Cross, Euston, and Hampstead Railway (No. 2).

812

Charing Cross, Hammersmith, and District Electric Railway.

Chester Gas.

Chesterfield Improvement.

Christ's Hospital (London).

City and Brixton Railway.

City and North-East Suburban Electric Railway.

City and South London Railway.

City of London (Spitalfields Market).

Cleveland and Durham County Electric Power.

Colwyn Bay and Colwyn Urban District Gas.

Cork, Blackrock, and Passage Railway.

Crawley Gas.

Cromer Water.

Derby Corporation.

Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire Electric Power.

Derwent Valley Water Board.

Devonport Corporation (Gas).

Devonport Gas and Coke.

District Messenger and Theatre Ticket Company.

Doncaster Tithe Trust.

Dorking Gas.

Dover Corporation.

Dover Gas.

Dover Harbour.

Dublin Corporation (Markets, etc.).

Dublin (Equalisation of Rates).

Dublin Port and Docks Board.

Dublin St. James' Gate Brewery Tramways.

East Middlesex Electricity (District Councils).

Easton and Church Hope Railway.

Eccles Corporation.

Elland Gas.

Fairford and Cirencester Railway.

Faversham Water.

Folkestone Corporation.

Freshwater, Yarmouth, and Newport Railway.

Gas Light and Coke Company.

Gateshead and District Tramways.

Golborne Gas.

Gravesend Gas.

Great Central Railway.

Great Eastern Railway.

Great Northern Railway.

Great Southern and Western Railway.

Great Western Railway.

Handsworth Urban District Council.

Harpenden District Gas.

Harrogate Water.

Hartlepools Gas and Water (Transfer).

Heckmond wike Gas (Transfer).

813

Henry Diaper and Company (Delivery I Warrants).

Heywood and Middleton Water Board.

Honley Urban District Council (Gas).

Horley District Gas.

Hull, Barnsley, and West Riding Junction Railway and Dock.

Humber Commercial Railway and Dock.

Ilkeston and Heanor Water Board.

Irish Presbyterian Church.

Islington and Euston Railway.

Kettering Urban District Water.

Kingscourt, Keady, and Armagh Railway.

King's Norton and Northfield Urban District Tramways.

King's Road Railway.

Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation.

Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Dearne Valley Junction Railways).

Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Various Powers).

Leatherhead Gas.

Leeds Churches.

Leeds Corporation (General Powers).

Leeds Corporation Water.

Llandrindod Wells Urban District Council Water.

Llandrindod Wells Water.

Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr Railway.

Llanelly Harbour.

London and India Docks (Lighterage Rates, etc.).

London and India Docks (New Works, etc.).

London and North-Western Railway.

London Bridge Widening. London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway.

London (City) School for Orphans of Freemen.

London County Council (General Powers).

London County Council (Spitalfields Market).

London Riverside Fish Market.

London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway.

London Water (Purchase of Companies).

Long Eaton Gas.

Lowestoft Corporation.

Lynton and Barnstaple Railway.

Manchester and Liverpool Electric Express Railway.

Manchester Corporation.

Manchester (Market Street Area) Improvements.

Mansfield Corporation.

Margate Corporation.

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Mersey Docks and Harbour Board.

Metropolitan District Railway.

Metropolitan Electric Supply.

Metropolitan Railway.

Metropolitan Water Companies (Amendment of Acts).

Midland Railway.

Milford Docks.

Mond Gas.

Neath Harbour.

Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Gateshead' Gas.

Newport (Isle of Wight) Gas.

Newry Port and Harbour Trust.

New Swindon Gas.

Nitrate Railways Company.

North-East London Railway.

North-Eastern Railway.

Nottingham Corporation.

Notting Hill Electric Lighting.

Oakham Water.

Omagh Gas.

Otley Gas.

Pembroke Urban District Council (County of Dublin).

Potersfield and Selsey Gas.

Piccadilly and City Railway.

Portmadoc, Beddgelert, and South Snowdon Railway.

Poulton-le-Fylde Gas.

Prestatyn Water.

Rhyl Bridge.

Rhyl Improvement.

Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water.

Richmond Gas.

Rickmansworth and Uxbridge Valley Water.

Ripon Corporation.

Royal Exchange Assurance.

Rugby Water and Improvement.

St. Bartholomew's Hospital.

Salford Corporation.

Shannon Water and Electric Power.

Sheffield Corporation.

Sheffield District Railway.

Shields Bridge.

Shipley Improvement.

Shireoaks, Laughton, and Maltby Railway.

Shrewsbury Gas.

Smothwick Corporation.

Southampton and Winchester Great Western Junction Railway.

South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways.

South Essex Water.

South Metropolitan Gas.

Southport Water (Transfer).

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South-Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway.

Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley, and Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board.

Stockport Corporation Water.

Stratford-upon-Avon, Towcester, and Midland Junction, East and West Junction and Evesham, Redditch and Stratford-upon-Avon Junction Railway Companies.

Stratton and Bade Gas.

Stratton and Bude Improvement.

Stroud Gas.

Swanage Gas and Water.

Swansea Harbour.

Taff Vale Railway.

Tees Valley Water Board.

Tendring Hundred Water.

Thames Deep Water Dock.

Thames Lightermen.

Thames Piers and River Service.

Torrington and Okehampton Railway.

Tottenham and Hampstead Junction Railway.

Wallasey Improvement.

Warkworth Harbour.

Wells Corporation Water.

Wells Water.

West Cumberland Electric Tramways.

West Surrey Water.

Weston-super-Mare Gas.

Wisbech Water.

Wolverhampton and Cannock Chase Railway.

Wolverhampton Corporation Water.

Yorkshire Electric Power.

And the Certificate that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have not been complied with:—

Birmingham City Tramways.

Brompton and Piccadilly Circus Railway.

Cambrian Railways.

Cowes Ferry.

Harrogate Corporation.

Mersey Docks and Harbour Board (Canada Dock Works, etc.).

Scarborough Electric Tramways.

South Yorkshire Electric Power.

Sutton-in-Ashficld Urban District (Water).

Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads.

West and South London Junction Railway.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

ROLL OF THE LORDS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had prepared and laid it on the Table. The same was ordered to be printed. (No. 12.)
POST OFFICE (TELEGRAPHS).
Accounts showing the gross amount received and expended on account of the Telegraph Service during the year ended 31st March, 1900. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

THE ROYAL DECLARATION AGAINST ROMAN CATHOLICISM.
LORD BRAYE,who had the following question on the Paper—
"To ask the Prime Minister whether he can hold out hope that the Government will speedily introduce into Parliament a measure to wholly abolish the Oath imposed as obligatory on the Sovereign of this country by Statute which was solemnly taken by His Majesty the present King in this Parliament; that is to say, the Oath in which Almighty God is invoked to bear witness that doctrines held by the Catholic Church not only as awful, sacred, and stupendous, but also as vital and fundamental, are false"
said: My Lords, with the leave of the noble Marquess, I wish to postpone this question until such time as the Government have had further opportunity for taking the matter to which it refers into consideration. The matter is no doubt under consideration, owing to a memorial or protest signed by a number of Roman Catholic Peers against the Oath which has been taken in this House by the Sovereign, and I therefore ask leave to postpone the question until the matter has received further consideration by the Government.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, I do not know whether there is any object to be gained in delaying the question which the noble Lord wished to ask, excepting bringing him down again unnecessarily. Though I am very anxious to give an answer which would be satisfactory to the noble Lord and his co-religionists, I do not wish

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to leave on his mind an impression that there are any doubts in the matter. We all of us deplore the language in which that Declaration is couched, and very much wish it could be otherwise expressed; but when it comes to altering an enactment which has now lasted, as far as I know, without serious question, 200 years, i and which was originally included in the Bill of Rights, it is a matter which cannot be done without very considerable thought. We must remember that an enactment of that kind represents the passions, feelings, and sensibilities of the people by whom it was originally caused; and that these have not died out. They are not strong within these walls; but there are undoubtedly parts of the country where the controversies which the Declaration represents still flourish, and where the emotions which it indicates have not died out. Before an; enactment is proposed, with all the discussion which must precede such an enactment, we shall have to consider how far it is desirable to light again passions which sleep at this moment, for an occasion which is not now urgent, and which we all earnestly hope may not be urgent in our lives. I do not wish to debar the noble Lord from any action which he may think it right to take; but I wish to point out to him the extreme difficulties and anxieties which would accompany any such attempt. With respect to the actual question of legislation, I need hardly observe that it is rather a question for the House of Commons than for us, because here I do not imagine there would be any doubt whatever about the result of such attempted legislation. But I could not be certain that a very strong feeling might not be excited elsewhere; and I notice that, possibly with a view to that consideration, the Leader of the other House, in answer to a question, said that, at all events for the present year, he did not see the possibility of having the requisite opportunity of bringing the question before the House.* I am afraid, therefore, however deeply I sympathise with the feelings of the noble Lord and wish there had been no cause for their being appealed to, that my answer would have to be of a discouraging character.
EARL SPEXCER: My Lords, I certainly should have preferred that the
*See page 320.
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noble Marquess had acceded to the request of my noble friend who had this question on the Paper, and allowed it to be adjourned. The noble Marquess has said certain things with which no doubt I should heartily agree. At the same time I do feel that it is important that, if possible, the words of this Oath should be modified, so as not to give offence, which it does give, and rightly gives, to the consciences of many of our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen. The noble Marquess said, and I most heartily agree with him, that he trusts we shall not have the necessity of hearing the Oath taken again in Parliament for a very long time. But if there is anything in the contention of those who say that it is desirable that the form of the Oath should be altered, then I hold it is not right to defer its alteration by statute much beyond the present time. The noble Marquess said it is difficult to alter it on account of its great age, and the great length of time the Oath has been on the Statute-book. But a great many things have to be altered, owing to change of circumstances and change of opinion, without having regard to their origin. I for one do not at all agree with what I understand from the question of my noble friend is his contention—namely, that the Oath should be altogether dispensed with. I think it is essential, considering the very strong feeling on the subject in the country, that there should be some oath or some declaration which would prevent the Throne from being occupied by one of the Roman Catholic faith. While I feel that, I also most strongly feel that the Oath in its present form is unnecessarily offensive to Roman Catholics; and although I am a strong Protestant myself, I do not at all believe in the necessity of the continuation of the offensive words in the Oath. I venture to press upon the noble Marquess the urgent necessity that within a reasonable time the Government, with their large majority and all their power, should look into the matter and endeavour to alter the form of the Oath. It is hardly necessary for me to point to the great change which has taken place within the last century on matters of conscience. I would only refer to one matter. A much greater step than the alteration of the words of this Oath was the passing of an Act in 1867 or 1868 which enabled a Roman Catholic to be Lord Chancellor of

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Ireland. I was the first and I believe the only Lord Lieutenant of Ireland who had as a colleague a Roman Catholic Lord Chancellor.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): There has been one since.
EARL SPENCER: The noble and learned Lord is quite right. I very well recollect the feelings that were excited, and I myself was the object of attack on that account. But I venture to say there was not a single act of the Irish Government, of which I was at that time the head, and of which the noble Duke sitting by the side of the Prime Minister was a distinguished Member, which affected injuriously the interests of the country on account of a Roman Catholic being Lord Chancellor of Ireland. That was a greater change than any mere modification of the King's Oath; and while, as I have said, I consider that some form of oath must exist, I hope the Government will refer the question to a Committee, or, as I should prefer, will take action themselves to make the Oath less offensive to Roman Catholics.
LORD HERRIES: My Lords, I am quite sure the Roman Catholics in England will be most grateful to the noble Earl for the manner in which he has spoken to-night. I did not come down to this House prepared to speak, but I had already made up my mind to move, in the course of this Session, that a Committee be appointed consisting, I hope, of Members of both parties, including, perhaps, the Archbishop of Canterbury, to consider what modification it might be possible to introduce into the Declaration which would make it more agreeable to a large portion of His Majesty's subjects. I do not think myself that there can be any objection to that course. I wish your Lordships to remember that the Declaration which was taken by His Majesty at the opening of Parliament is offensive not only to the feelings of His Majesty's own subjects, but also to the feelings of many of his nearest relations. Thus, for example, the Russian Imperial family may equally consider themselves branded as idolatrous and superstitious persons. Indeed, most of the Royal families in Europe are by it branded as idolatrous and superstitious persons. The extraordinary thing is that
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if any of these Royal personages were to die, and there was a Requiem Mass said in this country, the King would be expected to send his own representative to attend what he has branded as an idolatrous and superstitious ceremony. Surely there is something anomalous in that; and surely it is possible for the British Legislature in this century to make some alteration in the Declaration. We do not ask you to do away with the Declaration altogether. What we ask is that such modification should be introduced into the Oath as to leave out these offensive words. Such an alteration would not in the least endanger the religion of the majority in this country. It must astonish a large number of Colonists and also a great number of people throughout Europe that such a Declaration should exist at this time of day in this home of religious toleration. I have only to add that before the end of the session I shall bring this matter forward unless I can get some other Peer who is likely to have more influence than I have to do so; and I hope the Government, who now know that they will also have the support of the Opposition, will be prepared to assist in the formation of a Committee which will receive the general approval of all classes, and which will, I have no doubt, devise some modification of the Oath which will be satisfactory to the feelings of the Roman Catholics of this country.
LORD BRAYE: My Lords, as the noble Marquess the Prime Minister has thought fit —wisely, perhaps—not to allow me to postpone my question, and as a brief discussion has been initiated, I may, perhaps, venture to ask what is now called, I believe, a supplementary question, of which we have heard so much lately in another place. Why should not this Oath be converted into a Declaration? The noble Earl who spoke after the noble Marquess rather took exception to my wish, as stated in the question, that the Oath should be wholly abolished. I do not suggest the possibility or the likelihood of the Declaration being abolished. What I take exception to is the Oath being imposed by statute. An oath is a very different thing indeed from a Declaration. A Declaration is a thing within the province of politics, whereas an Oath essentially comes within the sphere of religion.

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This Oath, imposed by a statute of William and Mary, compels the Sovereign to call God to witness that the worship and belief and creed of an immense majority of Christians are idolatrous, including, as the noble Lord who has just spoken pointed out, the whole Russian Empire. A Declaration would not give offence in the same way as an Oath. It is ridiculous to exact from the Sovereign a specific oath against two of the most precious practices and doctrines of the whole Catholic religion. The Oath was made compulsory to exclude by specific words the descendants of Charles I. from claiming the Throne of England. Does any person out of a lunatic asylum suppose that any descendants of Charles I. have any idea at this time of day of claiming the throne of this kingdom? We know that the descendants of Charles I. were totally excluded, and that our present Sovereign, who is a descendant of James I., required no oath of this kind to establish his right to this kingdom. Therefore I venture to hope that the Oath, which has given so much offence to the feelings of His Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, will be wholly abolished.

MANNING OF MERCHANT VESSELS— THE LOSS OF THE "PRIMROSE HILL."
LORD MUSKERRY: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether the Board of Trade inquiry, as ordered, into the loss in December last of the ship "Primrose Hill," of Liverpool, has been deferred owing to pending libel actions between private individuals; whether in view of this vessel sailing without a certificated second officer, and certain other allegations as to her manning, it is the intention of the Board of Trade to proceed with this inquiry; and also whether, as these inquiries are held in the public interest, the Board of Trade will consider the advisability of discontinuing their practice of their being subordinated to cases of purely private concern. For the information of your Lordships, I may say that this ship was over 2,300 tons register, and that she carried a crew of thirty-five. Amongst that crew I am told there were thirteen apprentices, six of whom had never been to sea before. Your Lordships will remember that in December last the ship was lost, and that, with the exception of one man, all hands were drowned.
THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (the EARL of DUDLEY): My Lords, it is quite true that the inquiry into the loss of the "Primrose Hill" was, according to the usual custom, deferred while the libel action between the owners of the vessel and the proprietors of the Liverpool Courier newspaper awaited hearing. That action, however, has now been disposed of, and has resulted in a verdict for the owners with £100 damages. The Board of Trade inquiry will now take place in the usual way. To that inquiry will naturally be referred questions of manning such as those to which my noble friend has called attention, and it is, therefore, perhaps unnecessary for me to refer to them at this time. As regards the last past of the question, I regret that I cannot make any promise that the Board of Trade will depart from the course that it has hitherto followed in cases of this kind. The custom of deferring the inquiry into the circumstances of any particular casualty while a civil action in connection with it is pending either in the High Court or the Admiralty Court seems to me to be based on sound and equitable principles. To act otherwise might have the effect of seriously prejudicing the position of the various litigants, and I do not think therefore that under these circumstances my noble friend will wish to press his suggestion.
House adjourned at five minutes before Five of the clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven of the clock.