Lords Sitting of 16 August 1901

Preamble
An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Speech indicates revision by the Member.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  WATFORD AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4) BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  CITY AND BRIXTON RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with an Amendment. The said Amendment considered, and agreed to.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  LOCAL TAXATION ACCOUNT (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1898.
  Return showing the total payments into and out of the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account, for the financial year 1900–1901.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2694. Austria-Hungary (Fiume).
  No. 2695. Portugal (Oporto).

  MARRIAGES, BIRTHS, AND DEATHS (IRELAND).
  Thirty-seventh Annual Report of the Registrar General, for the year 1900.
  WORKMEN'S CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES (BOARD OF TRADE, LABOUR DEPARTMENT).
  Report on Workmen's Co-operative Societies in the United Kingdom; with statistical tables.

  SOUTH AFRICA.
  I. Further Return of numbers of persons in the camps of refuge in South Africa, July, 1901 (in continuation of [Cd. 608]).
  II. Despatch by General Lord Kitchener, dated 8th July, 1901, relative to military operations in South Africa (in continuation of [Cd. 605]).

  ARMY.
  List of exceptions to the Army Regulations as to pay, non-effective pay, and allowances sanctioned by the Secretary of State for War, with the approval of the Commissioners of the Treasury during the year 1900–1901.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1888.
  Part I. Orders under Section 57 of the Act, as confirmed by the Local Government Board, of the following county councils:—

  (1) Bucks. For transferring the parish of Little Missenden from the Wycombe Rural District to the Amersham Rural District.

  (2) Carmarthen. For uniting the parishes of St. Peter and St. Peter Without to form the parish of St. Peter's.

  (3) Chester. For uniting the parishes of Great Mollington and Little Mollington to form the parish of Mollington.

  (4) Chester. For the conversion of the parish of Whitby into the Ellesmere Port and Whitby Urban District.

  (5) Cornwall. For the conversion of the parish of Callington into the Gallington Urban District.

  (6) Devon. For transferring a part of the Newton Abbot Rural District to the Newton Abbot Urban District.

  (7) Essex. For transferring a part of the parish and urban district of Walthamstow to the parish and urban district of Woodford.

  (8) Essex. For transferring a part of the parish and urban district of Wanstead to the parish and urban district of East Ham, and a part of the parish and urban district of East Ham to the parish and urban district of Wanstead.

  1131

  (9) Hertford. For constituting the Sawbridgeworth Urban District and the parishes of Sawbridgeworth and High Wych.

  (10) Hertford. For transferring a part of the parish of Watford Rural to the parish of Watford Urban and the Watford Urban District.

  (11) Kent. For defining a part of the boundary between the parishes of Chatham and St. Nicholas, in the Medway Union.

  (12) Merioneth. For altering the boundaries of the Towyn Urban District and the Dolgelly and Machynlleth Rural Districts.

  (13) Somerset. For transferring a part of the parish of Selwood from the Frome Rural District to the parish of Frome and urban district of Frome.

  (14) Southampton. For transferring a part of the parish of Bedhampton from the Havant Rural District to the parish of Havant and urban district of Havant.

  (15) Stafford. For defining the boundary between the Brierley Hill Urban District and the Kingswinford Rural District.

  (16) Surrey. For transferring parts of the parishes of Abinger and Wotton to the parish of Ockley in the Dorking Union.

  (17) Surrey. For transferring a part of the parish of Horsell from the Chertsey Rural District to the parish of Woking and urban district of Woking.

  (18) West Sussex. For transferring a part of the parish of Horsham Rural from the Horsham Rural District to the parish and urban district of Horsham.

  (19) West Sussex. For transferring a part of the parish of Lyminster from the East Preston Rural District to the Littlehampton Urban District, and constituting the area so transferred the parish of Wick.

  (20) Worcester. For dividing the parish of Kidderminster Foreign into the parishes of Wribbenhall and Kidderminster Foreign.

  Part II. Order, under Section 59 of the Act, as confirmed by the Local Government Board:—

  (1) Worcester. For amending the county of Worcester (Malvern Urban District) Confirmation Order, 1898.

  LOCAL TAXATION (SCOTLAND).
  Return for the year 1899–1900.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  STEAM ENGINES AND BOILERS (PERSONS IN CHARGE) BILL.
  STEAMSHIP SUBSIDIES.
  NATIONAL GALLERY (PURCHASE OF ADJACENT LAND) BILL.
  Messages to the Commons for Reports, etc., of Select Committees.

  NATIONAL GALLERY (PURCHASE OF ADJACENT LAND) BILL.
  YOUTHFUL OFFENDERS BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (FOREIGN SHIPS) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to explain the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, with respect to the crew space of foreign ships, was presented by the Earl of Dudley; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 209.)
  CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
  Moved, That the Lord Balfour be appointed to take the Chair in Committees of the Whole House this day, in the absence of the Chiarman of Committees—(The Lord Ashbourne); agreed to.

  EAST INDIA LOAN (GREAT INDIAN PENINSULA RAILWAY DEBENTURES) BILL.
  REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS BILL.
  Read 2a (according to Order); Committees negatived; then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bills read 3a, and passed.

  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  *THE LORD BISHOP OF ROCHESTER: My Lords, I imagine that I shall have the feeling of your Lordships with me when I say that a Bill such as this ought not to be submitted without a word or two of introduction. This is another case like that of yesterday of a Bill of sufficient importance to call for more discussion and more possibility of amendment than is possible at present, but in this case we have to be grateful to His Majesty's Government for the facilities they have given for passing a measure which was not theirs originally. I need hardly remind your Lordships that this is a Bill which comes to us backed up with very great weight and authority. It was recommended in both Reports of the Royal Commission, and its Second Reading has been passed by an unequalled majority in the other House. The object of the Bill is a simple one—to prevent children from being employed in the service of carrying liquor from public-houses. I think it is important to observe that this is not a novel experiment. On the contrary, it is simply bringing up the practice in this country to the standard of other countries in Europe, of our own colonies, and of the United States. That we need a considerable change in this matter is shown, I think, both by observation and statistics. I may quote, for example, a case in my own diocese. Two public-houses in South London were under observation for two hours on a particular Sunday, and the fact was revealed that during that time 547 children entered those houses. A considerable change is therefore wanted, and it is a change which only the law can make, and which the law can make if it is sufficiently supported by public opinion. That this law, if passed, will be supported by public opinion is, I think, proved in several ways. It is proved by the immense support which was given in another place. The Majority Report of the Royal Commission contained these words—
  "We are inclined, from the evidence placed before us, to believe that the weight of public opinion now supports the proposition."
  1134
  And the support given to the Bill has been proved in certain places by ascertaining working class opinion. I understand that in the city of Liverpool a partial experiment of this kind has been successful, and has been accepted even by the trade. I hope, my Lords, the Bill will not meet with any opposition in your Lordships' House. I do not suppose that we shall be told that we are in this instance going too far in the direction of paternal and grandmotherly legislation. We might answer to any such criticism that all we are doing is to restrain the citizen who is in the interest of even a more valuable and more appealing case—namely, of the citizen who is to be. I should like to say what we are not doing by this proposal—we are not making any wholesale charge against public-houses as places of universal contamination; we are only saying, what I think nine out of ten persons, I may even say ninety-nine out of one hundred persons, would agree with reference to their own children, that the public-house is not the place for a child. Neither are we making the case of the children the pretext for delivering a side attack on the working-man's beer. We are not trying to reduce the consumption of beer by asking that children should not be allowed to carry it, but I will not say the same about the consumption of gin and other spirits by women. If this Bill should have the effect of making it a little more difficult for women to drink gin, I should not regret that it had passed. I am exceedingly sorry that it has been found necessary to introduce three Amendments in the Bill. The first Amendment was the insertion of the word "knowingly." The clause now reads—
  "Every holder of a licence who knowingly sells or delivers, or allows any person to sell or deliver any description of intoxicating liquor to any person under the age of fourteen years," etc.
  The insertion of the word "knowingly" may be made the opportunity for evasion The second Amendment was the throwing of a penalty on the sender of the child as well as the publican who served the liquor, and the third Amendment was the substitution of the age of fourteen for sixteen. I cannot but regret that Amendment. In the Grand Committee another much more serious and even

  1135
  calamitous Amendment was introduced, referring to the supply of liquor in corked and sealed vessels. This makes it still possible for a child to become familiar with the public-house, and to assist one of the worst forms of drinking—namely, the drinking by women at home. It will probably cut a hole right into the heart of the Bill. But what remains is a sound and wholesome step in the right direction, and, believing as I do that one step in these matters if wisely taken leads to the next, that any raising of the standard helps the standard to rise, I have no hesitation in commending this Bill to the favour of the House.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Bishop of Rochester.)
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I am very glad that this Bill has reached your Lordships' House, and I hope that it will be passed into law with all convenient speed. I believe that it will do more for the good of the children than anything else your Lordships could do for them. I regret that certain Amendments have taken away some part of its efficiency, but even as it stands the Bill is an exceedingly useful one, and I believe that it will have a very beneficial effect.
  EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I rejoice with the right rev. Prelate and the most rev. Primate that the Bill is to be passed, but I venture to express my deep regret that, with a prospect before us this session of seeing several measures of considerable importance in the cause of temperance reform dealt with this exceedingly attenuated measure should be the whole result of the work, not only of the Royal Commission, but of Parliament this session. Your Lordships will recollect that the right rev. Prelate the Bishop of Winchester introduced two measures on this subject. One was adopted by the noble Marquess at the head of the Government, and we certainly heard from him that the Bill would be introduced in another place, but I understand it has not been heard of there. Therefore, all the hopes we had of that excellent measure becoming law have fallen to the ground. I believe the Bill now before the House will, even in its attenuated form, have a very
  1136
  excellent effect. I regret the alteration in the age and the insertion of the paragraph as to corked and sealed vessels, but I do not attach so much importance to the Amendment introducing the word "knowingly." There is no doubt that children may be brought, under the exception with regard to corked and sealed vessels, within the evil influence which we all wish to protect them from. I gladly support the Second Reading of the Bill, and I deeply regret that with their large majority the Government have not taken further steps towards the carrying of measures for temperance reform in this country.
  On Question, agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; then (Standing Orders Nos. XXXIX. and XLV. having been suspended) Bill read 3a and passed.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords, this is a very short Bill, to remedy certain technical matters in reference to the administration of the Local Government (Ireland) Act of 1898. They are merely questions of detail, and are explained fully in the Memorandum which has been circulated with the Bill, to which I trust your Lordships will give a Second Reading.
  Moved. That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Ashbourne.)
  On Question, agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; then (Standing Orders Nos. XXXIX. and XLV. having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

  CONGESTED DISTRICTS BOARD (IRELAND) BILL.
  PACIFIC CABLE BILL.
  COLONIAL ACTS CONFIRMATION BILL.
  CUSTOMS DUTIES (ISLE OF MAN) BILL.
  BURGH SEWERAGE, DRAINAGE AND WATER SUPPLY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bills reported without amendment; then (Standing Orders Nos XXXIX. and XLV. having been suspended) Bills read 3a, and passed.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.—(The Lord Ashbourne.)
  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.—(The Earl Waldegrave.)
  LIGHT RAILWAYS (No. 2) BILL.—(The Earl of Dudley.)
  VALUATION (IRELAND) BILL.—(The Lord Ashbourne.)
  FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.—(The Lord Ashbourne.)
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been suspended) Bills read 2a; Committees negatived; Bills read 3a, and passed.

  MARRIAGES LEGALISATION BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to with Amendments; Commons' Amendments considered (on motion), and agreed to.
  House adjourned at Five of the clock, till to-morrow, Two of the clock.