Lords Sitting of 21 May 1900

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1) [H.L.].

Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2) [H. L.].

Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 3) [H.L.].

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) [H. L].

Bedford Gas.

Vale of Rheidol Light Railway.

Woodbridge District Water.

Also the Certificate that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill;—
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for additional provision in the
Crystal Palace Company Bill [H. L.]
ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to the Committee on the Bill to insert the additional provision.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petitions for the following Bills:
Costa Rica Railway Company, Limited, Buenos Ayres and Rosario Railway,
ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bills.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for the
Cumberland County Council (Bridges) Bill
ought to be dispensed with.
Read, and agreed to,

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Report of Her Majesty's Attorney General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.

LONDON AND SAN FRANCISCO BANK BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a.
ASTON MANOR TRAMWAYS BILL [H. L.].
MUIRKIRK, MAUCHLINE, AND DAL MELLINGTON RAILWAYS (ABAN DONMENT) BILL [H.L.].
MARGATE PIER AND HARBOUR BILL [H. L.].
SOUTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
WHITECHAPEL AND BOW RAILWAY BILL [H. L.].
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
EDUCATIONAL BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (BRIGHTON AND PRESTON UNITED DISTRICTS, ETC.) BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  JUDICIAL STATISTICS (ENGLAND AND WALES, 1898).
  Part II. Civil Judicial Statistics: Statistics relating to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, the House of Lords, the Supreme Court of Judicature, County Courts, and other Civil Courts; edited by John Macdonell, Esq., C.B., LL.D.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2426. Paraguay.

  No. 2427. Portugal (Beira).

  No. 2428. Turkey (Bussorah).

  No. 2429. China (Ichang).

  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  POLICE (COUNTIES AND BOROUGHS, ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Reports of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary for the year ended 29th September, 1899.

  AGRICULTURE AND TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION (IRELAND) ACT, 1899.
  Rules made under Section 3 of the Act.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  RATEABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND).
  Return respecting; laid before the House pursuant to Order of Thursday last, and to be printed. (No. 24.)
PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Petition for amendment of; of the School Board of the Burgh of Perth; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  LUNACY BILL [H.L.]
  Petition for amendment of; of the Guardians of the Poor of the Wandsworth and Clapham Union; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
NEW BILLS.
  LUNACY REGULATION (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to lunatics in Ireland—was presented by the Lord Ashbourne; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Friday next. (No. 90.)
  IMITATION OF COUNTY COURT PROCESS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law with regard to the imitation of county court process— was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read la; and to be printed. (No. 91.)

  SOUTH AFRICAN WAR—RELIEF OF MAFEKING.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I have to state to the House that the War Office has not yet received
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  from Lord Roberts the confirmation of the report that Mafeking has been relieved, but the Colonial Office has received a telegram from Sir Alfred Milner repeating a telegram received from General Barton from a place called Taungs, announcing officially that the relief of Mafeking was accomplished on the 17th. But we have received from Lord Roberts an interesting telegram giving an account of the events which immediately preceded the relief of Mafeking, and which I think will appear to your Lordships to illustrate in a remarkable manner the splendid audacity of the relieving column, and the determination and courage shown by the besieged force even during the last hours of the siege. The telegram runs thus:—
  "Kroonstad, May 21, 8.25 a.m.
  "Mahon reports having joined Plumer at Jammassibi on May 15.
  "He was followed by the Boer commando from Maritsani Siding, and turned westward to avoid it. On 13th he was attacked in thick bush, losing five killed, two missing, twenty -four wounded, including Major Mullens, Imperial Light Horse, dangerously; Captain. Maxwell, Kimberley Mounted Corps, severely; Mr. Hands, Daily Mail correspondent, dangerously.
  "The Boers lost more than Mahon in killed and wounded.
  "Another report has been received from Baden-Powell, date May 13, giving the important news that before dawn on 13th storming party 250 strong, personally led by Eloff, rushed the pickets and got into stadt and Protectorate Camp from westward along Molopo valley, strong musketry demonstration being made at same time along eastern front of our position.
  "The western posts closed in and stopped Boer supports following up, thus cutting off Eleff's retreat, while town defences stopped his further advance.
  "His force got divided in darkness, and a strong party was pushed in between it, completely surrounding it.
  "Fighting went on all day. Soon after nighfall two parties surrendered, and the other was driven out of the stadt under heavy fire.
  "Ten dead and nineteen wounded of the enemy were left behind and 108 prisoners taken, including Eleff' and nine officers. Seventeen Frenchmen and many Germans are-among the prisoners.
  "Our losses were six men killed; wounded, Captain Singleton, slightly; Lieutenant Bridges, slightly; and about nine men."

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL. (Committee.)
  Orders for Committee read.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My

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  Lords, in moving that the House go into Committee on this Bill, I propose to make a very short statement in regard to two of the principal points which were discussed on the Second Reading, and which are the subject of Amendments to the Bill. I believe that by doing so I shall save the time of the House and show noble Lords who have Amendments on the Paper the points on which it will be necessary to shorten or lengthen their arguments. The two main points which have been discussed were in connection with the power taken to rate for higher education and in regard to the constitution of the proposed local higher education committees. As regards the rating I think I may say that very extravagant and quite undue apprehensions have been raised in some quarter's on the supposition that a very large sum will be required under this head. I find, if I may trust to communications and arguments which have reached me, that comparatively few persons object altogether to the power of rating contained in the Bill. No doubt some do, but I believe them to be a small minority. On the other hand, objection to the rating provisions as they now appear in the Bill is to a considerable extent strengthened by the fact that there are to be on the local higher education committees some persons nominated by the Department, and who are not, therefore, representative of the ratepayers. I propose, partly by Amendments in my own name, and partly by the acceptance of Amendments proposed by other noble Lords, to make this change in the rating provisions of the Bill—namely, to leave it entirely optional to the local authority from whom the money is required to get that money either by a rate or by drawing upon the fund known as the Equivalent Grant. That, I believe, will take away a great dual of the objection to the provisions of the Bill as they now stand. I further propose to accept the limitation suggested by the noble Lord on the front Bench opposite that the rate shall in no case exceed one penny in the £. As I said on the Second Reading, that limitation is not one on which I should be inclined to rely. I depend much more on the other financial provisions of the Bill; but I may be asked, if my belief that a penny in the £ will not be required is a bona fide one, why not accept the limit? I believe the rate will be much less
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  than a penny in the £, and therefore I have no hesitation in proposing that the House should accept the limit when we reach that clause in the Bill. But, after all, the final decision on the rating provisions will not rest with this House. I hope that under the circumstances the power to nominate a small portion of the local higher education committee will not be objected to. I propose, at any rate for the present, to ask the House to retain that power, and to leave the final decision on the rating provision to the other House. I hope this explanation will allay some of the apprehensions that seem to have been aroused.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I am very glad to accept the concessions made by the noble Lord with regard to the rating clauses, although they do not entirely concur with the Amendments standing in my name on the Paper; but I regret that the noble Lord has not seen his way at once to adopt some change in the constitution of the local committees. I am afraid that on that point I shall be obliged to take the opinion of the House. The Amendments which appear in the name of Lord Ribblesdale really represent the views of the Corporation of the City of Edinburgh. The town clerk sent the Amendments to me and begged that I would put them on the Paper, for the information of the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland and of your Lordships' House. As they do not at all run on the same lines as my own Amendments; I could not put them down in my own name, but I thought it was due to so important a body that their Amendments should appear on the Paper, although they were not going to be moved. I therefore asked Lord Ribblesdale to allow me to put them down in his name.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1:—
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: The first Amendment to the clause standing in my name is only a small one, but it refers to the date on which the various funds which are brought into account in Clause 1 are impounded under the Bill. The first fund—namely, so much of the residue mentioned in Section 2, Sub-section 3 of the Local Taxation (Customs and

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  Excise) Act, 1890, as is directed to be distributed by the Secretary for Scotland—is taken as from the 1st day of April of the present year. The other two funds—the Technical Education money and the Local Taxation Account, 1898, money—are taken as from the first day of April, 1901. I propose that the Residue Grant Fund should also be taken as from April of next year. And for this reason. The various local authorities in Scotland have already made arrangements for the distribution of this fund in their respective districts during the coming year, and I think it would be very inconvenient that the money should be taken, as proposed in the Bill, in a retrospective way. Therefore, I move that the same date shall apply to the Residue Grant Fund as applies to the other funds.
  Moved—
  "In page 1, line 9, after ' hundred' to insert 'and one,' and to leave out lines 16, 17, and 18."—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The noble Lord is under a misapprehension in this matter. The Residue Grant cannot be ascertained till the conclusion of the financial year, and the first payment of it which we propose to take is that which will be available next year. Each fund will be taken at the same time —namely, from the conclusion of the next financial year.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Then why insert a different date?
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: It is not a different date, except that the Residue Grant is always paid a year in arrear, and the fund which is now about to be distributed is last year's fund.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  Drafting Amendment agreed to.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: The next Amendment standing in my name is a proviso to secure for the various local higher education committees no less a
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  share of these funds than the local authorities receive under existing arrangements. All these funds are funds which have been applied at various times for the relief and in aid of local taxation, as your Lordships will see if you look at the titles of the Acts dealt with. You get the Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Act, 1890, as the Act covering the fund; and in the next sub-section you get the Education and Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1892; and, in the next, the Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1898. I contend that the ratepapers of the various districts are entitled to share in the funds given for the relief of local taxation in an equal manner. I thoroughly approve of these funds being impounded and devoted to the purposes of secondary and technical education, but I think that the various districts should share equally in them. I know it be may said that the requirements of districts vary, and that what we ought to do would be to give the largest amount to those districts where the need for secondary and technical education is most felt, and where the localities will do more to help themselves. But I think what we want to arrive at is a mean standard of secondary education in all the districts of Scotland. I do not think the noble Lord opposite would say that if these funds were divided, as I propose, equally, the amount received by any particular district would be too great for the purpose of encouraging technical education in that particular district. This proviso would not interfere in the least with the administration of the Higher Education (Scotland) Fund, but I am afraid that without the proviso the great centres of population, where already there is considerable provision for secondary education, will get a still larger share of the money. Our contention is that the rural and Highland districts get too small a share now, although it is the less populous districts that require the most to be encouraged in the matter of secondary education. Therefore I hope my noble friend will see his way to accept this proviso, which, as I have said, is not intended to interfere with his method of distribution, but only to lay down the principle that the various contributions under the heads he proposes in the Bill shall be at least as large as the various districts would have received under the Acts as they at present stand.
  Moved—
  "In page 1, line 30, after 'Act' to insert 'provided always that the total amounts paid to the local higher education committees from the sources in this section enumerated shall not be less than the county councils, town councils, and police commissioners in Scotland would have within the districts of the several committees, prior to the passing of this Act, received from such sources.'"—(Lord Tweedmouth).
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I am sorry to say that I am entirely unable to accept the Amendment. It would alter the whole character of the Bill, and would preserve the system, which is universally condemned, of distributing these sums of money in very small payments, which in many eases have nullified altogether the good effect which might otherwise have been produced by them. The proposal in the proviso is rather like saying "You must fill a quart pot out of a pint pot," because there would not be enough money to go round. I thought that probably it would have been more convenient to have argued the question when we came to the substantial Amendments on Clauses 7 and S; but as the noble Lord has gone into the merits of the proviso I think I had better give the answer, which I think will be a conclusive one, now. The whole point of this Bill is to do away with the present method of distribution according to population, and to distribute the funds according to educational needs and requirements. The Amendment, if it were accepted, would provide that each committee should receive a certain sum irrespective of its necessities. Some, I think, would certainly receive more than could be usefully expended in their district, and there would be in that way an obvious invitation to the committee to spend up to what it had given to it, and not to what it really required. Moreover, this proviso would give a direction to the Department which it would be impossible to carry out, because, owing to certain preferential charges, there will not be quite the same sum in the future for each district as in the past.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I agree that my object would be achieved by my Amendments on a later clause: but my view was that even if the noble Lord was not willing to accept my method of distribution, still he might so frame his practice of distribution as to secure to the
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  various localities their fair share of this fund. You are taking old funds which have already by Act of Parliament been given to the localities and proposing to distribute them in entirely new proportions. I do not think that is fair to the ratepayers of the different localities. I agree with the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland that the principle on which this proviso is framed would be more properly argued on my later Amendments. I shall not, therefore, trouble the House by dividing on this Amendment, though I shall be compelled to take the opinion of your Lordship later on with regard to-my Amendments to Clauses 7 and 8.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 2:—
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: This clause deals with the appointment of local higher education committees, and my Amendment is almost a verbal one. If it is accepted there will be three elements in the constitution of the committees who will have to be represented—namely, the municipal element, the school board element—the effect of my Amendment is to extend representation to all school boards—and the managers of other schools. Those three elements will be represented compulsorily, and there will be an optional power given to the Department to nominate certain representatives. I am hopeful, after the explanation I have given, that this Amendment will be agreed to; but if it does not go as far as noble Lords opposite think necessary, I shall be glad to answer what they say.
  Moved—
  "In page 2, line 18, to leave out ' and,' and leave out from 'boards' to 'recognised' in line 19, and insert 'and the governing bodies of schools which are not under the management of school boards, but which are.'"—(Lord Bad four of Burleigh.)
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: I think a good deal of the misapprehension with regard to this clause originates from the fact that we know so little of what the real working out of the new committees will be. It depends on schemes which are to be framed by the Department, and the Bill itself does not show very clearly

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  what the result of the application of the clause to the scheme will be. For instance, the school boards are, I think, under the apprehension that the representatives of the other schools and the nominees of the Department will absorb so large a proportion of the new committees that they themselves will not get full representation. The words which I have suggested should be added were only designed to make it clear that all the school boards in the district should have an opportunity of what I may call exercising the franchise and of sending representatives to the committee. But, with regard to the representatives of other schools not managed by school boards, I still think that, though the noble Lord has been good enough to accept certain words suggested by me in substitution for those in the Bill, it would be better if the words I propose wore inserted lower down. I think that from an administrative point of view it is extremely desirable that there should be on the committees representatives of the governing bodies of these schools. If your Lordships will look at the powers to be exercised by the committees (Subsection 3, Clause 5) you will find that they enter very deeply into the whole system of the management of these schools. For instance, the committees have power to discuss the fees payable in those schools. I think anyone who has had to deal with local government will agree with me that in these matters there will be much less friction and waste of time if representatives of the governing bodies of these schools are allowed to sit on the committee than will be the case if the whole of the business is to be gone through by the committee without the information desirable from the representatives of those schools, and then formally communicated by the clerk to the committee to the clerk to the governors of the school. I am with the noble Lord in desiring that the governing bodies of these schools should have representation on the committees for all administrative purposes. It seems to me that the only real solid objection to their being on the committees at all is that they do not come from bodies elected by the ratepayers, and therefore ought not to sit and vote on questions of rating. We have a precedent for the particular arrangement which, in an Amendment standing in my name, I have suggested in that connection in the
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  fact that on the county councils as at present constituted we have burgh representatives who can only vote upon subjects for which the bodies they represent are financially responsible. I do not set that up as the best form of local government, but it is a form which has been adopted by Parliament, and I do not know that any very serious difficulty has arisen from it.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I am in rather a difficulty with regard to the Amendment of the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland, which, if it becomes part of the Bill, will, I am afraid, cut out my Amendment. My object is to take the opinion of the House as to whether the representatives of Voluntary schools and the nominees of the Department should be allowed at all to sit on the local higher education committees, which are practically rating authorities. I do not think it right that the managers of Voluntary and denominational schools should be represented on a rating authority, nor do I think it right that nominees of the Department should sit on such a body. But if the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland accepts my noble friend Lord Elgin's Amendment— which lays down that the representatives of Voluntary schools and the nominees of the Department shall not take any part in the financial business of the committee, but simply devote their attention to the educational side of the work—then my objections are to a large extent met, and I should not require to raise the question later on. But I hope I may be allowed, even if the noble Lord in charge of the Bill carries his Amendment, to raise the question on the clause after it has been amended in the direction proposed.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BUELEIGH: I should be very sorry to prevent the noble Lord raising any question he wishes. I am afraid the solution proposed by the noble Earl (Lord Elgin) will not meet the case. It will not go as far as the noble Lord opposite (Lord Tweed-mouth) desires, because, while the noble Earl proposes that these members shall not have a right to vote on any question for the imposition of the rate, the noble Lord opposite says they should not take part in the financial business of the committees. If these gentlemen support the expenditure of money, I think it will be

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  a very barren satisfaction to the ratepayers to know that they were not present at the time the actual demand for its payment was made upon them. The noble Earl proposes, as a compromise, that these gentlemen should vote on some occasions and not on others. That, if I may venture to say so, is a sort of "in and out" scheme which will not be a successful solution of the difficulty. On the contrary, I think that will create a great deal of confusion in the business of the local higher education committees. I do not think the precedent which the noble Lord cited, in the existing Local Government (Scotland) Act, is at all a happy one, because a great deal of disorder has been caused by it. I think we must make up our minds either to have the representatives of endowed schools and those not under public management on the committees or not. My own view is that they ought to be there, and, if local authorities have the option of finding the money from the Equivalent Grant instead of making a rate, I do not think any breach of first principles will be caused. I hope the House will accept my Amendment.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I am a little confused as to what we are at present discussing. The question which is raised in Lord Balfour's Amendment has reference to the schools which are to be represented. Lord Elgin's Amendment raises not only that, but also the question as to the occasions on which the persons who are to represent these bodies are to be entitled to vote. I cannot help thinking that it would be a much more simple mode of procedure if we were first to vote upon Lord Balfour's Amendment giving representation to the governing bodies of schools not under the management of school boards, but which are recognised as giving efficient higher education. Personally, I rather prefer Lord Elgin's proposal so far as I understand it. He proposes that there shall be added to the committees "representatives of the governing bodies of schools which are not under the management of school boards, but which are admitted to the benefits of the Act."
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Although the words are different, the effect is the same. No school can be admitted to the benefits of the Act which
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  is not recognised as giving an efficient higher education.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: But there can be a school giving higher education which is not admitted to the benefits of the Act.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: The first part of the noble Lord's Amendment is practically the same as mine. I therefore propose to assent to the omission of the words proposed to be deleted by the noble Lord, but I shall divide the House against the insertion of the words " and of the governing bodies of schools which are not under the management of school boards." I think that raises very clearly the issue between us. My point is, I do not think the managers of Voluntary schools should have a say either in the administration or the raising of public funds. The same objection holds good with regard to the nominees of the Department.
  LORD HERRIES: All denominational schools are Voluntary schools, and the proposal of Lord Tweedmouth would altogether cut out representation on the part of denominational schools. I think it is very desirable that there should be some representatives of denominational schools on these committees, and I hope the Government will adhere to the clause as it stands.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I do not rise to express any opinion on a purely Scottish matter which I do not profess to understand. But I do understand the principle which it is proposed to introduce, and I shall vote with my noble friend Lord Tweedmouth against it. I am afraid lest a principle which would be extremely objectionable in England should be introduced in Scotland, and then regarded as a precedent in dealing with secondary education in England.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The term "denominational" schools has been used, but these schools are not denominational in the same sense as the word is applied to schools south of the Tweed. What are intended to be brought in by this Amendment are schools which are partly endowed and which are really doing a very large share at present of the higher education work in Scotland. I hope the House will not be led away

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  by an analogy which is only in part, and in a very small part, true.
  On Question, Amendment to leave out "and" in line 18, page 2, and to leave out from "boards" to "recognised," in line 19, agreed to.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: I beg to move an Amendment to provide that the persons to be nominated to the committees shall be appointed by the Local Higher Education Committee and not by the Department, and that such additional members shall not have a right to vote on any question for the imposition of the rate authorised in Section 9 of the Act. We have already discussed the latter part of this Amendment, but I should like to say a word or two with reference to the omission of the word "Department." Personally I do not feel much objection to the nomination of these additional members of the committee remaining in the hands of the Department. I feel certain they would exercise discretion, and that in time the nomination would be acceptable to the committees. I am encouraged to think so because I know that on the present secondary education committees no member is more valued-in our county, at any rate-than the inspector of
  On Question, to insert "and of the governing bodies of schools which are not under the management of School Boards, but which are," their Lordships divided: -Contents, 58; Not Contents, 17.

  CONTENTS.

  Halsbury, E. (L. Chancellor.)

  Waldegrave, E. [Teller.]

  De Mauley, L.

  Devonshire, D. (L. President.)

  Erskine, L.

  Cross, V. (L. Privy Seal.)

  Falkland, V.

  Fairlie, L. (F. Glasgow.)

  Landaff, V.

  Glanusk, L.

  Lansdowne, M.

  Portman, V.

  Harlech, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Powerscourt. V.

  Herries, L.

  Kelvin, L.

  Camperdown, E.

  London, L. Bp.

  Lawrence, L. [Teller.]

  Cawdor, E.

  Salisbury, L. Bp.

  Napier, L.

  Clarendon, E.

  Newlands, L.

  Denbigh, E.

  Ashbourne, L.

  North, L.

  Egerton, E.

  Ashcombe, L.

  Norton, L.

  Feversham, E.

  Avebury, L.

  Oxenfoord, L. (E. Stair.)

  Lauderdale, E.

  Balfour, L.

  Robertson, L.

  Leven and Melville, E.

  Belper, L.

  Rowton, L.

  Lucan, E.

  Brampton, L.

  Shand, L.

  Mansfield, E.

  Braye, L.

  Sinclair, L.

  Mar and Kellie, E.

  Calthorpe, L.

  Stewart of Garlies, L. (E.)

  Onslow, E

  Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clan-)

  (Galloway.)

  Romney, E.

  (william.)

  Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)

  Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

  Colville of Culross, L.

  Ventry, L.

  Verulam, E.

  Crawshaw, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Ripon, M.

  Boyle, L. (E. Cork and)

  Monkswell, L.

  (Orrery.)

  Reay, L.

  Buckinghamshire, E.

  Burghclere, L.

  Ribblesdale, L. [Teller.]

  Carrington, E.

  Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kin-)

  Tweedmouth, L.

  Crewe, E.

  (cardine.)

  Wandsworth, L.

  Kimberley, E.

  Hawkesbury, L. [Teller.]

  Welby, L.

  Spencer, E.

  Leigh, L.

  the Department. Therefore I think that the Department might very usefully be given the power to nominate additional members conversant with educational requirements to serve on the committee. But I do not quite see why the noble Lord should insist that the nomination should take place by the Department. I think that if there is anything in my argument that the nominated members would be welcomed and be of use on the committees, the committees themselves might be trusted to see that proper persons are nominated. The advantage of that course is this, that if there is-and I am afraid there is, at any rate at present a prejudice against the nomination by the Department, that prejudice would disappear if the members were nominated by the committees themselves. So far as I appreciate the work which his to fall on the members of these local higher education committees, I think they will be greatly assisted by members of

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  this kind sitting with them and guiding them on certain points. If the noble Lord would allow them the power of co-option I cannot help thinking that he would secure the object aimed at, whereas if the clause stands as it is, and the nomination remains in the hands of the Department there will be still further efforts to cut them out of the Bill altogether.
  Amendment moved—
  "In line 22, after the first 'the' to leave out 'Department' and insert 'local higher Education Committee, but such additional members shall not have a right to Vote on any question for the imposition of the rate authorised in Section 9 of this Act."— (The Earl of Elgin.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I think one consideration has escaped the notice of the noble Earl. I do not desire specially that the Department should have the nomination of these members; but I do not think it would meet anybody's view if they were to be co-opted by the committee. The municipal clement is to be at least one half, and if it were to be merely a question of co-option the municipal representatives might simply use their power to add more of their own members, which would unduly overburden the local higher education committee with representatives of one class. I think it quite possible, as the noble Earl says, that these nominated representatives have but a precarious existence. If the rating power remains I think the case against them is stronger than if the rating clause is struck out; but I would rather see them go together than have them co-opted, as I think such a course would cause a large amount of mistrust.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Before the clause is put to the House I should like to ask a question with regard to the last paragraph, which runs as follows—
  "Provided also chat all schemes of the Department framed under this section shall be laid before Parliament."
  Does that mean simply that the schemes will be laid on the Table, or does it cany with it the further right of either House to object by Address?
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I understand that the House can always object to anything that is laid before it.
  Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3:—
  Drafting Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4 agreed to.
  Clause 5:—
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: This clause provides that a local higher education, committee shall have the power, subject to the sanction of the Department, of determining what schools or classes within its districts shall be admitted to the benefits of this Act. I move to omit the words "subject to the sanction of the. Department." I cannot help thinking that this is one of the phrases in connection with this Bill which is liable to a great deal of misconception. I suppose we may presume that these words simply provide for an, appeal in cases where the local higher education committee, in exercising the powers conferred upon them by the subsection, create a grievance which the Department and the noble Lord think ought to be remedied. But they mean a good deal more that that, and in working they may prove somewhat arbitrary. It generally happens in arrangements of this kind that a scheme, when agreed upon by the local authority, is sent up to the Scottish Office, where it is revised and returned;. but in most cases, whether it is altered or not, the local authority has no information with regard to what takes place during the time it is under the consideration of the Scottish Office. I suppose the Department may under this Bill receive representations from one or other of the schools or school boards which may think themselves aggrieved by the decision of the local committee, and I suppose also that the Department would receive reports upon the subject from their inspectors. But we have no opportunity of stating our view of the case further than that we have adopted a scheme and sent it up for approval. Every Government Department likes to claim for itself a certain amount of infallibility. It naturally considers itself the best interpreter of its own rules, and I think it is always its tendency, if it grants powers, to consider whether some safeguard is not required upon the exercise of those powers, and the safeguard which these words impose is

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  that of preserving the full decision to the Department itself. The noble Lord on the Second Heading of the Bill, admitted that if we gave powers to local bodies under the Bill we ought to give them powers to go wrong as well as to go right. I do not wish by my Amendment to ask for powers to enable them to go wrong, but I do ask that they shall be allowed powers to go right. It seems to mo that if some opportunity were given for an objection taken by a school or school board to the determination of the local committee to be considered by the local committee itself, in very many cases the reference to the Department would never have to be made. There is a good deal of reasonableness among local bodies if you bring them face to face, and I believe that, if opportunities were given for the consideration by the local committees of any objection which one of the subordinate bodies might take to any proposal, the noble Lord would not be troubled with many cases which would otherwise come before him. There is this further advantage in the arrangement which I suggest—namely, that if the case does go to the Department it will go as a full statement, giving not only the objection taken, but an explanation by the local committee of the way in which they view the objection. In moving that the words, "subject to the sanction of the Department," be omitted, I would remind the House that the power which is conferred on the local committees by this sub-section is already limited, because the committees cannot put on their list any school or class which is not recognised by the Department as supplying efficient higher education.
  Amendment moved—
  " In page 3, line 15, to leave out ' subject to the sanction of the Department.' "—(The Earl of Elgin.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I am quite willing to accept the Amendment to delete the words " subject to the sanction of the Department." Our only object in inserting them was to secure that there should be a power of appeal.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: There are practically no dates, or very few, in the Bill with reference to the procedure to
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  be adopted. No doubt we shall be told that that will be dealt with in the rules to be framed by the Department, but I think it would be of great advantage to the local authorities to know something of the dates on which they are to take action. I therefore move the Amendment standing in my name.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 17, after 'Act' to insert 'and shall annually, and not later than the first day of May in each year, intimate such determination to each school board in its district; and shall receive and consider any appeal which may on or before the thirty-first day of May be lodged by any such school board; or, if required by the appellants, shall submit the case with full particulars, including any statement made in support of the appeal, for the final decision of the Department.'"—(The Earl of Elgin.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I would prefer to accept the Amendment of Lord Reay, which comes at the end of the clause, and gives the right of appeal in matters arising out of this sub-section. The Appeal proposed by the noble Earl in the Amendment now before the House is in my opinion too limited in its character. The Amendment apparently would not give the managers of a school which was not under the school board any right of appeal at all.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 21, to leave out ' subject to the sanction of the Department.' "—(The Earl of Elgin.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: As the clause stands it appears that the power given to local higher education committees of approving or not approving expenditure refers simply to expenditure which has been incurred; and a little lower down the clause provides that—
  "Such approval or disapproval shall have effect solely for the purpose of ascertaining the … deficiency arising from the excess of expenditure over income in the case of such schools or classes."
  The effect of my Amendment is to say that not only shall they inquire into a deficiency which has actually arisen, but that before any expenditure is incurred

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  an estimate shall be laid before the local higher education committee.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 29, after ' incurred' to insert 'or proposed to be incurred under this Act.' " —(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I am quite prepared to accept the Amendment, although I do not think the words are necessary. I think the one follows from the other, but in case there should be any doubt perhaps it is better to insert the words.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: It is not quite clear in the clause whether the deficiency arising from the excess of expenditure over income is to be ascertained on an estimate or on completed accounts. This is a matter of very considerable moment, because if the deficiency is to be declared on completed accounts I am afraid some fifteen or eighteen months may elapse after the beginning of the school year before any deficiency can be declared, and if that long interval takes place there will be considerable difficulty in providing the funds. Nothing is more inconvenient or more taken exception to in local government that when a duty is thrown upon an authority and no funds put into its hands adequate to pay the expenses. The result is a large overdraft at the bank, which has to be paid for. I would suggest to the noble Lord that if it is not possible for him to fully meet the deficiences at an earlier period than the completion of the accounts, at any rate there might be some way of making a payment to account for bursaries and the like, which are not subject to so many vicissitudes and in connection with which the expenses will be constantly running on. There is one other smaller matter to which I should like to direct the noble Lord's attention—namely, to the fact that the dates for the completion of the accounts will vary. All school board accounts are presented on 15th May; but the noble Lord will remember that the Commission on which he and I sat fixed 31st December as the date for completing the accounts for most of the endowed schools. That would make the difficulty all the greater.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 3, line 37, after ' classes' to insert ' and the deficiency so ascertained shall annually, and not later than the 1oth day of June in each year, be reported to the Department."— (The Earl of Elgin).
  LORD BALFOUE OF BURLEIGH: I have no hesitation in accepting this Amendment. I am afraid that some of the difficulties to which the noble Earl referred are unavoidable, but I believe arrangements can be made to minimise them by making payments to account, as the noble Earl suggested. I am sure the Department will do its best to make the inconveniences as few as possible. With regard to the other point raised by the noble Earl I do not think much difficulty will be experienced in getting the managers of endowed schools to change the date for the completion of their accounts.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The object of the Amendment standing in my name is to require every school board or other set of managers to lodge with the clerk of the higher education committee an estimate of the income and also of the expenditure proposed to be incurred under the Act, and within two months after the expiry of the school year, to forward a statement of the income and of the expenditure actually incurred.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 4, line 8, after Sub-section 3 to insert a new sub-section: ' Every school board or other managers of schools or classes admitted to the benefits of this Act shall, within a period of two months before the commencement of the school year, lodge with the clerk of the higher education committee an estimate of the income and also of the expenditure proposed to be incurred under this Act, and shall also, within a like period after the expiry of the school year, forward a statement of the income and of the expenditure actually incurred, in such a form as may be prescribed by the Department." "—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  LORD BALFOUE OF BURLEIGH: I hope the noble Earl will not persevere with this Amendment. I believe that everything he desires can be secured by the regulations of the higher education committee. The noble Earl's proposal would be exceedingly troublesome in operation, and would not serve any useful purpose.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The Amendment which stands in my name has been put down to meet the object which Lord Read has in view.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 4. line 23, after 'and' to insert 'for that purpose.' "—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
  LORD REAY: I should like to ask the noble Lord whether the suggestions are to be made by the local higher education committees to the Department or to the managers of the school or class admitted to the benefits of this Act.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The local body would make its suggestions to the higher education committee, and the latter would transmit the suggestions, with its remarks upon them, to the Department.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: The object with which I have placed this Amendment on the Paper is to secure that, when a local higher education committee resolves to have special classes for which they are authorised by the Bill to employ special teachers, they shall not be absolutely prevented from doing so if a school board withholds its consent. I do not wish to say anything against the principle adopted in the Bill that all the ordinary classes should as a rule be supervised and managed by the school boards of the districts in which they are held; but there are certain special classes which it would be difficult to confine within a school board district, and for which a school board could not readily supply suitable supervision, but which a committee representing the whole county could organise and perfectly well make provision for supervising. I refer particularly to classes on agricultural subjects. We have had in our county for some years now classes in dairying, and those classes have to be organised by teachers who proceed from one district to another. They could not be conveniently restricted to the management of one particular school board district. That is particularly the case with a class which is now being conducted, and in which actual
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  milking is taught. Your Lordships will readily understand that arrangements have to be made with farmers and the owners of cows, which can be better undertaken by the local higher education committee than by the purely local school! boards. I do not think it is reasonable that the school boards should have a positive veto on the establishment of such classes. If the local higher education committees assume the responsibility of these classes they will also, I take it, assume responsibility for a whole half of the deficiency instead of a quarter. I think, therefore, that there is every safeguard that the committees will not be guilty of any reckless extravagance if my Amendment is adopted.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 4, line 40, to leave out from 'managers' to ' the consent' in line 41; in line 42, after 'shall' to insert 'not.'"—(The Earl of Elgin.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I cannot consent to the deletion of these words, but I believe the noble Lord's object would be effected if the Amendment standing next on the Paper in his name were accepted. That Amendment I am prepared to accept. I was rather afraid that if this proposal was carried into effect it might give an opening to economically-minded school boards to-put their duties on to the local higher education committees; but these will be, as I understand, central classes which more properly come within the purview of the county committee than of the school boards.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: I do not know whether the noble Lord will accept my Amendment to Sub-section 8, which introduces a date at which the schemes for the provision and tenure of bursaries shall be put forward.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 5, line 1, after 'shall' to insert 'annually and not later than the fifteenth day of June in each year.' "—(The Earl of Elgin.)
  LORD BALFOUK OF BURLEIGH: I do not think the schemes ought to be changed annually, and I should be very

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  sorry to see such a provision introduced into the Bill.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  LORD REAY: The Amendment which I now move provides that the local higher education committees shall prepare a scheme for higher education, including, if they think fit, the provision of bursaries. I think it will smooth the working of the Bill if such schemes are made. The words "if they think fit" are inserted for the purpose of meeting cases in which the bursaries are considered already sufficient.
  Moved—
  "In page 5, line 2, after 'for' to insert 'higher education, including if they think fit.'" —(Lord Reay)
  LORD BALFOUR OR BURLEIGH: I am rather surprised to find this Amendment coming from the quarter whence it does, because I think it would largely limit the power and discretion of the local higher education committees. If the words proposed by the noble Lord were inserted the whole of the actions of the local higher education committee would be made by one stroke of the pen subject to the review of the Department—a very much more drastic proposal than anything I have ventured to make. I think the words are proposed under a misapprehension, because the whole of this sub-section deals only with bursaries. To insert the words where they are proposed by the noble Lord would quite unnecessarily extend the provisions of the sub-section.
  LORD REAY: I do not understand why the noble Lord should say he is surprised that this Amendment comes from me, because I have never shared the fears which are expressed about the activity of the Department. I do not understand how you can have a system of secondary education for Scotland unless the Department is the co-ordinating power. In the Secondary Education Report for England this is distinctly laid down by the Commissioners as very desirable, and I cannot conceive how any local higher education committee can discharge its functions properly unless it makes a survey of the whole of the needs
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  of its district and prepares a scheme of this kind.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The whole of the sub-sections of this clause are intended to give the committees power to make that scheme, and it is not, I think, necessary to insert the specific direction that they shall do it in this sub-section. I think myself that it would be unwise, because it would be putting the local bodies too much under the review of the Department. If, in spite of any protest, this is forced upon me I will accept it, but I would very much prefer that the Bill should stand as it is.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: If the noble Lord objects to insert the words "higher education including," I hope he will not object to insert "if they think fit." The clause as it stands says positively that local higher education committees shall prepare schemes for the provision and tenure of bursaries or scholarships for their district. It is easy to imagine a scheme in which bursaries might not be included. As the clause stands it is peremptorily enjoined upon every committee to have a system of bursaries. Therefore I hope the noble Lord will agree to insert the words "it they think fit."
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I hope the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland will feel his hand forced, and accept this Amendment. It is very desirable that the local higher education committee should prepare such a scheme. I attach the greatest importance to leaving it optional to the local higher education committee whether they shall make extra provision for bursaries or not, and I think that if the clause is left as it at present stands it will be absolutely incumbent upon the committee to present a scheme for bursaries for their district.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: In view of the unanimous opinion of noble Lords opposite, I will accept the words "if they think fit."
  On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 5, line 3, to leave out from 'district' to 'A scheme' in line 12, and to insert 'on such terms and conditions as they shall see 'fit.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: If the noble Earl will not move the deletion I will accept the addition of the words proposed.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I am not quite sure that I realise for the moment the whole meaning of the noble Lord's proposal, but my object in moving the omission of these words is to give the committees full liberty to start bursaries in any manner they think fit, If you state certain conditions it follows that any condition which is left out is presumed to have been omitted purposely, and this would to a certain extent fetter the hands of the local committee in preparing their scheme. If you strike out the words I propose to omit, a general power is left to the local committee to prepare a scheme for bursaries on such terms and conditions as may seem to them best.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: There is a great deal more in those words than the noble Lord suggests. I want it to be incumbent upon the committees to make bursaries of sufficient amount to cover fees in order that the fees may be paid to the school; but if the Amendment is accepted, it will be possible to give a smaller sum and insist on the central institution giving free education, which would complicate matters very much.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I do not see why the committees should not have a free hand, in the first instance at any rate, to make any proposal with regard to bursaries which they think best. Nothing is more common than for them to allow for such payments as those to which the noble Lord alluded, but I do not think it is desirable that they should be forced in every case to take that course.
  On Question, Amendment to leave out from "district" in page 5, line 3, to "A scheme" in line 12, negatived.
  Amendment to insert after "district" in line 3, the words "on such terms and conditions as they shall see fit," agreed to.
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: The object of the Amendment which I now move is simply to safeguard the interests of those who have gained bursaries under the competitions which have already been
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  established by the authorities at present administering the funds.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 5, line 15, at end of sub-section to insert 'Provided that a local higher education committee shall make full provision, in accordance with the terms and conditions under which they were offered for competition, for all bursaries and scholarships established prior to the passing of this Act by any authority duly entitled to deal with any of the funds transferred by Section 1 of this Act.'"—(The Earl of Elgin.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I am advised that it is not necessary to insert these words; but, for fear it might be, I am quite willing to accept the Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: The power given to the local higher education committee in the Amendment standing in my name may possibly be considered to have been covered by the last sub-section, but I think it is very important, in order to insure the acceptance of central schools, that power should be given to pay the expenses of students going to and from those schools. I have seen secondary schools prosper exceedingly and be accepted by the whole county owing to this course being adopted. My proposal is not to make it incumbent on the local higher education committees to pay the expenses, but merely to give them the power to do so. I am confident this will be the means of making many of the schools popular and of enabling scholars to use them who would not be able otherwise to do so.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 5, line 15, after Sub-section 8, to insert the following new Sub-section: 'A local higher education committee shall have power to pay or contribute towards the payment of the travelling expenses of scholars to and from any central institutions or classes for higher education as may be instituted or approved by a local higher education committee.—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I am not out of sympathy with the argument of the noble Lord, but I may point out that the power he proposes to give is covered by Sub-section 8. The words of the Amendment, however, are rather too wide and I could not possibly accept them.

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  The Amendment proposes to pay the travelling expenses of scholars to and from any central institutions. That, according to the phraseology of the Bill, would mean to Edinburgh or Glasgow.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: To schools and classes within their own districts.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I cannot accept words across the Table because a very important principle is involved in giving full and free power to the committees to pay the expenses of anybody who wants to attend the higher school. So far as it is necessary, and in some cases it is necessary, such expenses ought to be held as covered by the bursary and scholarship provisions in the previous sub-section.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The object of my Amendment to sub-section 10 of Clause 5 is to preserve to the local higher education committee the power either to contribute or not towards the central institutions. I am not quite certain whether the Amendment ought not to be put down on Clause G, because it is to the system which is started in that clause that it relates. Clause 6 says that the Department shall prepare a scheme determining the local higher education committees, if any, which, upon making application therefore, shall be represented on the governing body of such institution, and the number of their representatives, and the proportion in which each such local higher education committee so represented j shall contribute. As I understand, the course to be adopted would be this: in the first instance, the local committee would have to make application to the Department to be represented on one of these central institutions. As soon as that application had been made the Department would prepare the scheme and state the amount which the local committee would have to contribute, and the local committee, having made the application, would no longer be able to refuse to contribute, even though the contribution required, from it might be such as it was not able to pay. My intention in proposing to insert these words is to give the local committee the liberty of saying,
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  after it sees the scheme, that it is too expensive and one with which it does not see its way to fall in.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 5, line 25, after 'contribute,' to insert 'if they see fit.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I hope the noble Lord will not persevere with this Amendment. Discretion is left entirely in the hands of the local committees. They cannot be made to contribute to anything in connection with institutions on which they will not be represented, and the object of the noble. Lord is already attained.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I now beg to move an Amendment limiting the power of the local higher education, committee to contribute to the bodies on which they actually have some representation.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 5, line 26, after 'education,' to insert' on the governing bodies of which they are represented.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  THE EARL OF ELGIN: I can conceive instances with which a local committee might wish to contribute without desiring to be represented on the governing body. If those words are inserted they will not be able to do so.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I think the provision in the Bill is better as it stands. I do not think there is much fear of a local higher education committee subscribing largely to an institution on which it is not represented when it has the power of being represented if it applies.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  LORD REAY: My Amendment is simply to give to the local higher education committee the power of establishing schools or classes of its own. I do not quite understand why the noble Lord has given to a district the power of coming to an agreement with other districts to satisfy the needs of two or three districts jointly, and yet does

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  not allow a district to supply any educational deficiency which may exist in that district. The Secondary Education Commissioners for England have distinctly proposed that such a power should be given to the local higher education authority in England, and I shall be very much surprised if, when we get the English Bill, we do not find that this power is given. I have taken every precaution against any abuse in the direction of the committee wishing to compete with existing schools, and I should be prepared, if the noble Lord wanted a further guarantee, to give a right of appeal to any school or classes which thought there was no need for the establishment of such schools or classes. I am much more afraid that the power will not be used even where it is wanted than that there will be an abuse of the power.
  Moved—
  "In page 5, line 28, after Sub-section 10 to Insert the following new sub-sections: 'A local higher education committee shall have power to establish and manage schools or classes for higher education serving or capable of serving the interests of higher education in its district, and it shall prepare a scheme of instruction for any of such schools or classes as may be established, and submit this scheme to the Department for its sanction. A scheme shall not have any validity until sanctioned, with or without modification by the Department, and when sanctioned shall not be modified without the consent of the Department.'" —(Lord Reay.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I think this Amendment would make a very material alteration in the framework of the Bill The idea of the Bill is that the management of the schools shall remain in local hands, and that the local higher education committee shall judge between the different institutions in its district, and shall keep them to their own proper work and prevent them from overlapping. If you give the central body in the district power to establish schools of its own you will make it less impartial in judging between the efforts of others, and you will lead in some cases to the central authority thinking it can do the work better itself, with the result that overlapping, waste, and friction will take place. If they were to have unlimited power of dipping their hands into the ratepayers' pockets for institutions covering a larger area the rates would be increased, and the hostility to the rating provisions of the Bill would be largely augmented. If we find here-
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  after that there are not sufficient institutions to serve the districts, it may be necessary to come to Parliament for an amending Bill, but in the meantime I would strongly press upon the noble Lord not to confer this power on the local higher education committees.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I am sorry to hear the answer of the noble Lord. I know individual cases in the smaller counties where there are not existing schools, either in the hands of school boards or Voluntary bodies, and where the management of the local higher education committee would be very useful and cordially welcomed. I think that in cases such as this there should be a power given to the local higher education committee with proper safeguards to institute and manage such schools themselves, instead of, as at present, having to go to a particular school board in the county, and ask them to be a sort of nominal figurehead. Of course, where schools already exist there need be no change in the management, but where it is a case of instituting schools afresh I do think the committee would be the proper body to undertake that work. In Berwickshire there is a case in point. By the present rules of the Department, when we established our secondary and technical education school, we were obliged to go to the School Board at Duns and ask them as a favour to undertake the management and the nominal responsibility of it, but at the same time we had to give them a pledge that they would not be required to raise any rate for that school. In the case of that school, surely it would be far bettor, instead of this nominal figurehead management, that the county district committee should undertake it. It is a school which provides for the technical education of the whole county. It would not provide for any persons outside the district, but would provide for pretty nearly the whole of the district of the Berwickshire County Committee. I hope the noble Lord will not give a refusal to the Amendment off-hand, but will reconsider it, and allow it to be raised again on the Report stage.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I hope noble Lords opposite will not think I gave the answer I did off-hand, because this is one of the most important questions we have had to consider in pre-

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  paring the Bill. I am not in the least surprised to hear that the Duns School Board refused to undertake a higher school without the guarantee to which the noble Lord referred. By means of the use we have made of the fund placed at our disposal two years ago—£35,000 —we shall be able under the provisions of this Bill to put those higher schools, if not quite in the same position as Code schools, at any rate in a very much better position than they have been before; and I hope the prejudice against declaring schools to be higher education schools which has existed in the past owing to the financial difficulties, will to a large extent cease in the future. If I am disappointed in that there may be some case for what the noble Lord suggests.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: When the Duns school comes under the operation of this Act the Duns School Board will have to find a quarter of any deficiency under the provisions of Section 8, so that that Board in future will be obliged to rate for the purpose of this school.
  LORD REAY: I hope the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland does not think this is a Berwickshire question. The question is really a very important one. As regards secondary education there might, perhaps, be overlapping, as the noble Lord has said, but the great need in Scotland for more technical education and for more agricultural education can only be supplied if he agrees to this Amendment. But as I feel quite sure the need will manifest itself, whatever may be the present opinion of the noble Lord, I do not intend to press my Amendment to a division.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Sub-section 11 seems a very strange provision to insert in any Act, and I do not understand to what it refers. It says that—
  "A local higher education committee shall have power to undertake such other duties not inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, and to make such other payments in connection therewith as may be set forth in the minutes of the Department, which shall be forth with laid before Parliament."
  You might do anything under a power of that kind, and I move that the sub-section be omitted.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 5, line 29, to leave out Sub-section (11).—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I have always a fear that when you specify a number of powers you may omit one which is afterwards found most necessary, and this sub-section was put in to meet a case of that kind. I do not think there is the slightest fear of its being abused. The provisions to secure economy are quite sufficient; but if the noble Lord thinks the sub-section objectionable, I will agree to the Amendment striking it out.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD REAY: The object of the new sub-section standing in my name is to enable a local higher education committee to accept the transfer of endowments from the existing governing bodies and trustees for the purposes of higher education. The noble lord is probably aware that in many parts of Scotland there is a great desire to give local higher education committees this power. There are many small endowments which are practically useless when applied separately, but which could be far more effectively administered if they were transferred to the local higher education committees. I need hardly say that the procedure in my Amendment is of an entirely voluntary nature, and that the sub-section is merely an enabling one.
  Amendment moved—
  "To insert in Clause 5, the following new sub-section: 'A Local Higher Education Committee may accept the transfer of endowments or costs from the existing governing bodies and trustees thereof for the purposes of higher education, and accent the administration and trusteeship of new funds for the same purposes, though subject to conditions and trusts."— (Lord Reay.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I am always afraid of dealing with any matter touching endowments in a Bill of this kind. I do not know any more controversial or difficult subject, and even though the noble Lord says his proposal is a voluntary one, I think that if the local higher education committees had power to accept the transfer of these endowments, pressure would be brought to bear on the local bodies to transfer endowments to them. And when they obtained endowments affecting some

  707
  schools and not others, it might prejudice their view and lead them to favour certain schools. I do not think the power is necessary at the present time. The Amendment would introduce a controversial element into the Bill, and I hope the noble Lord will withdraw it.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  LORD REAY: I understand that the noble Lord is prepared to accept my next Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  "At the end of Clause 5, to insert the following new sub-section: 'There shall be a right of appeal from a local higher education committee to the Department in matters arising out of Sub-sections (1), (2), (3), and (5) of this section.'"—(Lord Reay.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I am prepared to accept the Amendment as regards Sub-sections 1 and 2, but it is quite unnecessary in regard to Subsection 5, as the power is clearly set out in that sub-section. I would prefer not to accept the proposal in regard to Subsection 3, because I am afraid that others who are more suspicious of the Department than the noble Lord would use that as a further instance of the centralising and grasping power which is attributed to the Department. I would confine the power of appeal to Subsections 1 and 2.
  Amendment—
  "To insert at the end of Clause 5, the following new sub-section:—'There shall be a right of appeal from a local higher education committee to the Department in matters arising out of Sub-sections (1) and (2) of this section.'"
  Agreed to.
  Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 6 agreed to.
  Clause 7:—
  Drafting Amendment agreed to.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I take exception to the principle embodied in the Bill imposing a charge on the county rate in aid of Voluntary schools not managed under a public authority. I will state shortly the financial proposals in the Bill
  708
  as I understand them. On the Higher Education Fund the Department first imposes a prime charge for the examination and inspection of schools for an equalising grant, and for a contribution towards central institutions. Out of the balance, after satisfying these charges, the Department pays half of the expense of the various schools, up to one-half of the deficiency, owing to excess of expenditure over income, one-half of the sum necessary to provide scholarships or bursaries, and up to one-half of any other necessary expenditure, providing the fund is sufficient to enable this to be paid. In the case of deficiency arising and the Department being able to find one-half, the remainder of the deficiency is made up as follows:—A quarter from the county rate in the case of all schools, and in the case of School Board schools a quarter from the School Board rate, and in the case of Voluntary schools a quarter from subscriptions and a quarter from the county rate. The particular objection I have to that system is that in distributing the balance no respect is paid to the previous arrangements under former Acts. School Board schools now have power to rate for secondary education and do so. It would be far better to leave School Board schools in the same position as they are now, and to throw the rating charge for secondary schools under School Board management on the School Board district of the particular school affected. In the ordinary way the School Board school only provides for the wants of the district of that School Board. If it should go into neighbouring school board districts it would be far better to throw a charge on those particular districts than on the County Rate. I take special exception to a charge being made on the County Rate on behalf of voluntary schools which are not managed under a public authority. I do not think that is a sound principle. It is one that has always been protested against, and has never been adopted. Voluntary schools do get grants from public funds, and to that I raise no objection, but I do protest against any charge in connection with these schools being thrown on the County Rate. I propose to leave the three charges which the Department have placed upon the Higher-Education Fund, and then to distribute the balance among the various local district committees in the same way as

  709
  the Equivalent Grant Fund is now distributed. By that means I reserve to the various localities what I believe to be their share of this money. These are the proposals contained in the two Amendments which I have put down to the clause now under discussion and Clause 8. I think it is useless for me to enlarge on my argument. I move the Amendment with the special view of insisting on the necessity of securing to each locality a fair share of this Fund according to an equitable calculation, and, in the second place, as a protest against any charge on the County Rate in aid of voluntary schools.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 6, line 32, to leave out from ('committee') to the end of the clause, and to insert ('any sum remaining at the credit of the said fund for the purpose of such further expenditure as may be necessary in the execution of the powers conferred upon it by this Act, and such remaining sum shall be distributed among the local Higher Education Committees in like manner as the grant to local authorities is distributed under Section 11, Sub-section (5) of the Education and Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1892')."—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The noble Lord knows very well the circumstances of Berwickshire. He thinks that the proposals in the Bill will not suit the county of Berwick, and he draws, I think, from that the premise that they will not suit any county. I do not believe that that is a safe inference, and I believe that the provisions in this Bill will be much fairer and much better educationally over a large part of Scotland than the present system. If every district is to have neither more nor less than they have at present, why does he limit the application of that principle to the counties only? In Berwick there are practically no burghs which got any portion of the residue grant at the present time, but Berwick is peculiar in that respect. If the principle in the Amendment is adopted what will the burghs say? They will demand exactly the same rights as they have now, and the whole framework of the Bill would be gone. There is a great injustice at the present time to those school board districts which have higher schools, and which over a limited area rate for those schools. The noble Lord proposes in his Amendment to perpetuate that injustice, for fear that under the provisions of the Bill what I
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  venture to describe as an imaginary injustice might be brought into operation. In large districts with which I am acquainted and in many others complaints have been made that the ratepayers in small districts are rated for the up-keep of schools which confer benefits over a wide area of the county. It is much fairer that a part of that burden should be distributed over the area which benefits than that the present system should be perpetuated. If the counties object to take the money from the rates they have, under the Amendment which I shall propose to a subsequent clause, the option of taking it from the equivalent grant. Therefore I am obliged to resist the Amendment.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I should like to ask whether it is really the case that my noble friend Lord Tweed-mouth's Amendment is limited to counties. I do not read it in that way.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Under the Amendment the county would get all that it receives at the present time, but it would get it in one sum. It would not be distributed between the rural and urban districts within the county.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: The local Higher Education Committee would have charge of all the schools in its district, whether burgh schools or county schools, and to it would go the whole amount of the Higher Education Fund which falls to its share. I do not think the noble Lord is justified in saying that my proposal would inflict any sort of hardship on the burghs.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I must say that I like the proposal of my noble friend Lord Tweedmouth for the distribution of the second half of this fund, but I do not share with him his views with regard to voluntary schools. I think that any school which has established its claim to be considered as giving higher education should participate in any public money obtained for that purpose.
  On Question, That the Amendment be adopted, their Lordships divided.
  Contents, 39; Not Contents, 14.

  CONTENTS.

  Halsbury, E. (L. Chancellor.)

  Waldegrave, E.[Teller.]

  Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kin-)

  Devonshire, D. (L. president.)

  (cardine.)

  Cross, V. (L. Privy Seal.)

  Falkland, V.

  Erskine, L.

  Powerscourt, V.

  Glanusk, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  London, L. Bp.

  Herries L.

  Salisbury, L. Bp.

  Kelvin, L.

  Cawdor, E.

  Lawrence, L. [Teller.]

  Clarendon, E.

  Ashbourne, L.

  Napier, L.

  Denbigh, E.

  Ashcombe, L.

  North, L.

  Egerton, E.

  Avebury, L.

  Oxenfoord, L. (E. Stair.)

  Lauderdale, E.

  Balfour, L.

  Robertson, L.

  Mansfield, E.

  Belper, L.

  Sinclair, L.

  Mar and Kellie, E.

  Brampton, L.

  Stewart of Garlies, L. (E.)

  Morley, E.

  Braye, L.

  (Galloway.)

  Romney, E.

  Calthorpe, L.

  Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Buckinghamshire, E.

  Spencer, E.

  Ribblesdale, L. [Teller.]

  Camperdown, E.

  Burghclere, L.

  Tweedmouth, L.

  Carrington, E.

  Hawkesbury, L.[Teller.]

  Wandsworth, L.

  Crewe, E.

  Monkswell, L.

  Welby, L.

  Kimberley, E.

  Reay, L.

  Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 8:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 7, line 4, to leave out from the beginning of the clause to the word 'With' in line 19 and insert: 'The deficiency arising in the case of any school or class admitted to the benefit of the Act, from the excess of expenditure over income as ascertained in terms of this Act, but exclusive of any income from endowment or from subscription, shall be met by such contributions from their share of the central fund as the local higher education committee may, in the exercise of their discretion, think fit; and in the event of a deficiency still existing after such contribution from the central fund, such deficiency shall, in the case of School Board schools or classes, be borne by the school fund as defined in Section 43 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1872, and in the case of managers other than a school board, from voluntary subscriptions or such other fund as may be at the disposal of the said managers, except in so tar as the proportion of the deficiency to be borne by the school board or other managers is made good by endowments inalienable from the school, and in the case of central institutions or classes shall be met as provided for in the next following clause.'"—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  Clause 8 agreed to.
  Clause 9:—
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: This clause deals with the mode of levying contributions from the rates. The effect of my Amendment would be to appro-
  712
  priate the whole, if necessary, of the Equivalent Grant for the purposes of this Act, but to refuse altogether to allow a rate to be imposed on the district for the purposes of secondary education. I do not know that it is necessary to trouble the Committee by stating at any length my objections to a rate for this purpose. If the Equivalent Grant, which is a very considerable sum, will not provide as much as is required the local higher education committee ought to provide the deficiency from some other source than that of rates.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 7, line 40, to leave out 'a local rate within the district of the committee,' and to insert 'grants receivable within the district of the committee under Section 2, Sub-section 5, of the Local Taxation Account (Scotland) Act, 1892.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: There is not the slightest likelihood of the whole of the Equivalent Grant being wanted. I would venture to ask the noble Earl and other noble Lords opposite whether they will not accept the suggestion I made earlier in the debate, and allow the proviso at the end of Clause 10, which is down in my name, to come in place of their Amendments. The effect of that proviso would be to give each local authority the option of saying whether it would supply the amount required out of the local rate or out of the Equivalent Grant. Therefore, if the noble Lord's district preferred to use the Equivalent

  713
  Grant they could do so, and another district which preferred the rate could adopt that course. I am also prepared to accept the limitation of 1d. in the £.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: What exactly is the meaning of the proposal of the noble Lord? Does he mean that if the Equivalent Grant is applied, and happens not to suffice, that in addition to that there is to be a rate?
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: No; the clause will be quite clear when printed. Each local committee will be able to determine whether the money shall be supplied by a rate or out of the Equivalent Grant; and if the former, the amount must not exceed one penny in the pound on the rateable value of the district. I do not suggest the taking of the whole of the Equivalent Grant, and the giving of power to rate in addition.
  Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The words in the Amendment which Lord Tweedmouth has placed on the Paper, would not, I am advised, effect his purpose. The Amendment which I now move does so in the technical way.
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 7, line 40, after ('Committee'), to insert ('provided that the amount to be raised by such rate in any year shall not exceed the produce of 1d. in the £ of the valuation of such district')."—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 10.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 41, at the end of clause, to insert ('Provided that Sub-section 5 of Section 2 of the Education and Local Taxation (Scotland) Act, 1892, shall be deemed to authorise any council or commissioners, if they so resolve, in lieu of levying a rate, to apply their share of the grant under that sub-section to meet the payments required from them in any year for the purposes of this and the immediately preceding section')."—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 11, amended, and agreed to.
  Clause 12.
  LORD REAY: The noble Lord has asked me to postpone the Amendment standing in my name, which provides for the establishment of a Consultative Committee, until the Report stage, which I am quite prepared to do.
  Clause 12 agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Schedule 1.
  LORD REAY: The noble Lord is aware of the difficulty of making the School Board area the district, and I should like to ask whether it would not be possible to make the district coterminous with the municipal area.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Yes, there are means, but I do not know whether they would be agreeable to the school Boards. I am inclined to think that for the purposes of this Bill municipal areas, and not school board areas, ought to control, and I hope that that may ultimately be agreed to. But if we have to do it by an extension of the school board area it will be less acceptable to the school boards than the provisions of the Bill.
  Schedules agreed to.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: In accordance with an agreement arrived at with noble Lords opposite I propose to negative the Standing Committee. I should like to put the Report stage down for Friday, but I do not wish to take any advantage of noble Lords, and I would remind them that the House will not sit on Thursday. I do not know what provision can be made for handing in amendments.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Personally I shall not trouble the noble Lord with any further amendments.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Then it will probably be convenient to take the Report Stage on Friday.
  Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received on

  715
  Friday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 92.]

  DIOCESAN RECORDS BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
  House adjourned at Seven of the clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten of the clock.