Lords Sitting of 15 May 1900

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—
Market Weighton Drainage and Navigation.
Water Orders Confirmation [H. L.].
North Metropolitan Railway and Canal.
The same were ordered to lie upon the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the petitions for additional provision in the following Bills:—

North British Railway [H. L.]

North-Eastern Railway [H. L.]

ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to the Committee on the Bills to insert the additional provisions.
Read, and agreed to.

HAMILTON, MOTHERWELL, AND WISHAW TRAMWAYS BILL.
A Petition of Messrs. Grahames, Currey, and Spens, of No. 30, Great George Street, Westminster, parliamentary agents, praying for leave to present a Petition of Hamilton Corporation, praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill, although the time limited by Standing Order No. 93 for presenting such Petition has expired; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; and Standing Order No. 93 to be considered on Thursday next, in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Petition.

LONDON COUNTY TRAMWAYS (No. 2) BILL.
A Petition of Messrs. Watson, Sons, and Room, of No. 16, Bridge Road, Hammersmith, solicitors, praying for leave to present a Petition of Hammersmith Vestry, praying to be heard by
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counsel against the Bill, although the time limited by Standing Order No. 93 for presenting such Petition has expired; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; and Standing Order No. 93 to be considered on Thursday next, in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Petition.

MUIRKIRK, MAUCHLINE, AND DAL-MELLINGTON RAILWAYS (ABANDONMENT) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
SPALDING URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (WATER) BILL.
  WHITECHAPEL AND BOW RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with Amendments.
  GLASGOW AND SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  CHARING CROSS, EUSTON, AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY BILL.
  Read 3a, and passed.
  DEARNE VALLEY RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
    RAWMARSH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS) HILL [H.L.]
    Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  WETHERBY DISTRICT WATER BILL.
    STOCKPORT CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL.
    Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  BEDFORD GAS BILL.

    BRADFORD CORPORATION BILL.
    VALE OF RHEIDOL LIGHT RAILWAY BILL.
    WOOD BRIDGE DISTRICT WATER BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

  IMSCHENETZKY'S URALITE PATENT BILL [H.L.]
    KINGSTON-UPON-THAMES CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
    Returned from the Commons agreed to.
    NEWPORT (MONMOUTHSHIRE) GAS BILL [H.L.]
    Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL [H.L.]

    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL [H.L.]
    GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [H. L.].
    GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H. L.].
    Read 2a (according to Order).

    GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
    House in Committee (according to Order). Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL (No. 79).

    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL (No. 80).
    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL (No. 81).
    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL (No. 82).
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL (No. 83).
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL (No. 84).
    Brought from the Commons; read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

    SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
    RAMSGATE CORPORATION IMPROVEMENTS BILL [H.L.].
    SOUTH-EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAYS BILL [H. L.].
    FOLKESTONE, SANDGATE, AND HYTHE TRAM ROADS BILL [H. L.].
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Headley be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Wandsworth; read, and agreed to.

    MOTHERWELL AND BELLSHILL RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
    GLASGOW BUILDING REGULATIONS BILL [H.L.].
    GLASGOW DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.].
    NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY BILL [H. L.].
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Clarendon be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Farquhar; read, and agreed to.

  RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
    WEST INDIES (JAMAICA).
    Contract between the Crown Agents for the Colonies and Messrs. Elder, Dempster, and Company, for a steamship service between Jamaica and the United Kingdom, dated 19th April, 1900.
    STEEL RAILS.
    Report of the Committee appointed by the Board of Trade to inquire into the loss of strength in steel rails through use on railways; together with the appendices thereto.

    TREATY SERIES, No. 11 (1900).
    Convention between the United Kingdom and France, regulating the telegraphic communication between the two countries; signed at Paris 17th February, 1900: (ratifications exchanged at Paris, 2nd April, 1900).
    Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

    GAS AND WATER WORKS FACILITIES ACT, 1870.
    Report by the Board of Trade as to dispensing with the consent of the Ton-bridge Urban District Council in the case of the Tonbridge Water Provisional Order.
    NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS (IRELAND) PENSIONS FUND.
    Accounts of receipts and payments for the period to 31st December, 1899.

    IMPERIAL DEFENCE.
    Account of all moneys issued from the Consolidated Fund, of sums borrowed,

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    and of transactions in relation to sums so borrowed, up to 31st March, 1900, in pursuance of the Imperial Defence Act, 1888.
    Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PETITIONS.

    EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) HILL [H.L.]
    Petitions for amendment of, of Lord Provost, etc., of Perth; Perthshire County Council; and Committee on Secondary Education for the County of Perth.
    Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  NEW BILLS.

    COLONIAL MARRIAGES (DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER) BILL [H.L.]
    A Bill to amend the law as to marriage contracted in the Colonies with a deceased wife's sister—was presented by the Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.
    Read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 75.)

    DIOCESAN RECORDS BILL [H.L.]
    A Bill to make better provision for the custody of diocesan records—was presented by the Lord Belper. Read la; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Friday next. (No. 76.)
  NAVAL RESERVE (MOBILISATION) BILL (No. 77).
    POOR REMOVAL BILL (No. 78).
    Brought from the Commons; read la: and to be printed.

    ANCIENT MONUMENTS PROTECTION BILL.
    [SECOND READING.]
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
    LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, in rising to move the Second Reading of this Bill, I am sure that I shall not appeal in vain to the indulgence which your Lordships are always kind enough to give to anyone who addresses you for the first time. This Bill extends the provisions
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    of the Ancient Monuments Act of 1882. The provisions of that Act are much narrower than we could have wished. During the ten years, from 1871 to 1882, in which we were pressing the question on Parliament, successive Governments all refused to incur any expense. We were therefore compelled to restrict the measure to pre-historic monuments, such as stone circles and avenues, dolmens, earthen dykes, circles and camps, which only require to be left alone and consequently involve no repairs or expenditure. So far, indeed, as its provisions extend, the Act has done much good, though Mr. Gladstone's Government refused to make the Act compulsory, but the great majority of the owners of the monuments scheduled have voluntarily placed them under the Act. In Ireland, however, the position is more satisfactory. The Irish Church Disestablishment Act placed £50,000 at the disposal of the Irish Commissioners of Public Works for the maintenance of disused churches and abbeys. These provisions were extended to the sacred places of our Pagan ancestors, and in 1892 another Act extended as regards Ireland the provisions of the Ancient Monuments Act to " any structure, erection, or monument of historic or architectural interest." This has worked well. I believe that Irish archaeologists will agree that the Irish Office of Works has done its work well, and without unnecessary interference has saved many interesting monuments from destruction. The Irish Office publishes every year an interesting account of its proceedings, and I would suggest to Government that a similar Report should be presented for England and Scotland. At any rate, we ask your Lordships in the Bill to extend to Great Britain the provisions that have been found to work well in Ireland. There is only one other proposal in the Bill with reference to which I should like to say a few words. There is a provision in the old Act under which other monuments besides those scheduled might be placed under the protection of the Act. Of this power, I regret to say, little use has been made. Archaeologists are under the impression that successive Governments have rather discouraged than encouraged any advantage being taken of the clause. It is thought that local authorities would feel more interest and pride in preserving the monuments in their own locality, and that some owners

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    might prefer to place their monuments under the local authority than under the Government. We propose, therefore, that local authorities should be empowered to take over the charge of national monuments, and to receive voluntary contributions towards the cost of maintaining and preserving them. Some of the London open spaces have been preserved in this manner, and there seems no reason why the same principle should not be applied to these beautiful and interesting monuments. The object is not entirely secured by the wording of the Bill as it stands, but I propose to move an addition in Committee, with the consent of the First Commissioner of Works, which I trust will fully meet the case. I will only quote one authority in favour of the Bill. There is, so far as I know, only one case in which we have the expression of Shakespeare's own sentiments, and it is a strong protest against the destruction of an ancient monument. It was proposed to demolish an ancient earthwork at Welcombe, and the corporation sent an agent named Greene to oppose it. He was a relative of Shakespeare, and he records in his diary that his cousin Shakespeare told him he could not bear the enclosing of Welcome. We ask you to-day to affirm the principle that the protection of these national monuments is a duty we owe alike to our ancestors who erected them and to our children for whom they ought to be preserved. It is deeply to be regretted that so many of our national monuments have grievously suffered or even entirely perished. Many, however, are still in existence, and it is in the hope and belief that this measure will do something to preserve those that yet remain to us that I move the Second Heading of this Bill, and earnestly commend it to your Lordships' favourable consideration.
    Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Avebury.)
    THIS LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, I rise not for the purpose of offering any opposition to the Second Reading of the Bill, but to protest strongly against the way in which it has been drafted. It incorporates part of an Irish Act without informing your Lordships what it is. Why in the world the draftsman should not have set out the section incorporated I do not know.
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    Is it to save printing or paper? I can understand no other object. The first section of that Bill is as follows:—
    "The provisions of Section I of the Ancient Monuments Protection (Ireland) Act, 1892, shall apply and be in force as well in Great Britain as in Ireland."
    What is the object of legislating in that form? When the Bill goes into Committee I shall move that the section be incorporated bodily, so that your Lordships may know what Act of Parliament you are asked to pass.
    THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I have looked up the section in the Irish Act. It is a very short one, and it seems to me extraordinary that it should not have been incorporated. I join in the protest of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack against a practice which is exceedingly inconvenient.
    On Question, agreed to.
    Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

    NAVY—FREE DELIVERY OF LETTERS AND TELEGRAMS FROM SHORE TO SHIP ON HOME STATIONS.
    VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether arrangements could be made by which the officers and seamen of Her Majesty's Navy could receive, at the principal stations in the United Kingdom, letters and telegrams without extra payment. In putting this question I may, perhaps, be allowed to say a few words by way of explanation. The officers and seamen of the Royal Navy are at present practically dependent upon ships' boats for the supply of their letters and telegrams. I do not complain of that so far as letters are concerned, although it may happen that ships lying at Spithead or in the Sound may find it extremely inconvenient to send their boats in for letters. If I may be allowed to refer to my own experience, which is somewhat an ancient one, I may say that I cannot remember any time when we were dependent on our own resources. A postman always came to the ship with the letters, and he was paid, I believe, by the Post Office. But when it comes to telegrams the case is much more serious. A telegram despatched from any part of England to an officer or seaman

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    comes down to Portsmouth or Plymouth and then has to be conveyed by a shore boat at the expense of the person to whom it is addressed. To officers this does not matter much, but to the unfortunate midshipman or seaman it is a matter of great hardship that they should be compelled to pay sixpence, and frequently, when the weather is bad, a shilling for the delivery of their telegrams. I have heard of cases where half-a-crown has had to be paid when the ship is outside. I may mention that on many foreign stations—at Japan, for instance—every ship, of whatever nationality, has its telegrams and letters delivered free at the expense of the Government. I hope the noble Marquess will be able to make some arrangement by which the officers and seamen of Her Majesty's Navy can receive at the principal stations in the United Kingdom letters and telegrams without extra payment.
    EARL SPENCER: My Lords, I hope the noble Marquess will allow me to support the prayer of the noble and gallant Viscount who has just spoken. It certainly does seem to me a great hardship that men who are serving their country on board ship should be put to much greater expense in getting their letters and telegrams than any other person in the kingdom. I am not quite certain whether this is entirely a Post Office matter; it may partly belong to the Admiralty. I was not aware of the instance which the noble Viscount has quoted from Japan; but as Japan has followed us in so many ways—notably in the matter of ships and the organisation of the Navy --I hope in the matter of the delivery of telegrams and letters the Post Office or the Admiralty will follow the example of Japan.
    THE POSTMASTER, GENERAL (The Marquess of): My Lords, my noble friend in putting this question has voiced the universal opinion of your Lordships' House—namely, that it is desirable as far as possible to conduce to the comfort, welfare, and convenience of our gallant sailors. I need not say that I do not yield to my noble friend or the noble Earl opposite in my desire to carry their suggestion into effect, but at the same time there are various difficulties with which the Post Office has to contend in this particular matter. My noble friend has not made any great complaint
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    with regard to the delivery of letters. There is no extra payment due for the delivery of any fully prepaid letter as long as the destination of the letter is within the ordinary limits of the postman's work. At the same time, it is not considered advisable that postmen, if I may use a naval expression, should go afloat, because, as your Lordships are aware, the distance of the various vessels from the mainland is very variable. The delivery by postmen would therefore be very irregular, and it would lead to considerable inconvenience. Ships' boats are, however, in constant communication with the mainland, and I believe that that communication and the transport of letters from the mainland to the ships by moans of the boats are not absolutely inconvenient. The same argument, to a certain extent, holds good in the arrangement for the delivery of telegrams. The circumstances affecting the delivery of telegrams also vary to the same extent as the delivery of letters. Every effort is made to deliver telegrams to the officers and men of the Navy on the ships at the various stations with as little delay and expense as possible, and in many cases with no expense at all. I should like to allude specially to the chief stations—Plymouth and Devonport —which my noble friend had in his mind when he put the question, and to tell your Lordships what the arrangements are there. In the case of Plymouth and Devonport telegrams to Her Majesty's ships in the Hamoaze are delivered on board the respective ships in watermen's boats at charges from 4d. to 1s. 6d., according to the position of the ship. The amount charged is in accordance with the scale of charges issued by the commissioners of boats and wherries for the port, and it is feared that no cheaper arrangement is possible. Telegrams for ships lying in the Sound are delivered at the Commander-in-Chief's office in accordance with the Admiralty instructions of the port, and are either sent off in the next despatch box or are semaphored to the ship if she is on the point of leaving. There is no charge for delivery. At Portsmouth, under an arrangement made with the naval Commander-in-Chief, telegrams for Her Majesty's ships in the stream or at Spithead are left at the dockyard main gate, and the ship is informed by signal from the tower. They are either sent

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    for by the ship, or, at the request of the addressee, signalled from the tower to the ship. At Sheerness, telegrams for Her Majesty's ships are delivered at the Royal Naval Barracks, and the addressees are informed by signal of their arrival. In any case in which the addressee so requests, the telegram is signalled to the ship; otherwise it waits at the Royal Naval Barracks until called for. I have no doubt that my noble friend had in his mind the fact that telegrams, letters, and parcels have been sent at a reduced rate to South Africa during the present war, but I must remind your Lordships that the telegrams have been sent there at a reduced rate owing to the fact that the privilege was due to a free gift on the part of the Eastern Telegraph Company. Unstamped letters that have been delivered in this country from South Africa have been delivered free of expense owing to the action of the War Office. The noble Lord opposite alluded to the fact that the Admiralty might perhaps render some assistance in the matter. So far as the Post Office is concerned, if the Admiralty and the War-Office are prepared to refund to the Post Office any loss it may sustain by the free delivery of letter's and telegrams, I shall be only too glad to undertake the duty on behalf of the Department. I would remind your Lordships that at the present moment the telegraph branch of the Post Office is not remunerative; indeed, it is carried on at a considerable loss. Unless, therefore, these great Departments of the State, to whom our soldiers and sailors naturally look, are prepared to refund to the Post Office the loss which would be sustained otherwise, I do not think I should be justified in undertaking the responsibility of incurring further loss to the telegraph branch; nor do I think I should be justified—in view of the fact that the Treasury have been called upon to provide a large expenditure during the past few months, and in all probability a still larger expense in the coming months—in asking that Department to launch on an expenditure of the character contemplated. I sympathise most sincerely with the desire of the noble Viscount to conduce to the comforts and prosperity of our sailor.-3. I can assure him that it is the ardent desire of the Department over which I preside that our sailors should receive their telegrams with the utmost expedi-
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    tion and with the least possible expense; and if the noble Lord will bring to my notice any cases of delay or unnecessary expense, the complaints will receive my sympathetic consideration, and I will do my utmost to remedy any grievance for which my Department can be held responsible.
    THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I would point out to the noble Marquess that payment made by the Admiralty or the War Office out of public funds, or payment made in the shape of reduction of expense, so far as the revenue of this country is concerned, comes to exactly the same thing. It is merely a question of booking the amount to one Department or the other, and therefore I do not see that it is of very much consequence. I would venture to urge that the question of supplying special facilities for the men serving in the Navy must not be looked upon in the same way as supplying the public generally. We owe this concession to one of the great services. Even if the terrible thing were to happen that the Post Office were unable to show to the Treasury as large a balance as usual, I think the public would be better served by the expenditure of the money in this way that by a desire to swell the Post Office revenue. I think the reductions that have been made to the general public have been most generous, but I maintain that it is the absolute duty of the country to relieve those serving on board ship of inconvenience and extra expense.
    House adjourned at Five of the clock, to Thursday next, half-past Ten of the clock.