Lords Sitting of 8 March 1900

EARL OF DESART.
Ordered and Directed, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That a Certificate be sent by the Clerk of the Parliaments to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, stating that the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom has reported to the House of Lords that the right of the Earl of Desart to Vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of him the said Lord Chancellor; and that the House of Lords has ordered such report to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland; and it is hereby also Ordered, That the said Report of the said Lord Chancellor be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.
THE LORD SANDHURST—Took the Oath.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—
Cork Electric Tramways [H.L.].
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD BILL [H.L.]
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The Orders made on the 23rd of February and on Tuesday last discharged, and Bill committed.
  BARNSLEY CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Read 2a.
  BREWERY AND COMMERCIAL INVESTMENT TRUST, LIMITED, BILL [H.L.]
  Read 2a (according to order).

  SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Standing Order No. 92 considered (according to order), and dispensed with,
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  with respect to a petition of Tipton Urban District Council: Leave given to present the said petition.

  DUBLIN ELECTRIC LIGHTING BILL.
    BLACKPOOL, ST. ANNE'S, AND LYTHAM TRAMWAYS BILL.
    The Order of Tuesday last referring the Examiner's certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders to the Standing Orders Committee, discharged.
  NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL [H.L.]
    NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
    The Order made on Tuesday last appointing certain Lords the Select Committee to consider the Bills, discharged.
  LONDON HYDRAULIC POWER COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection that the Five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Aston Manor Tramways Bill [H.L.] and other Bills, do form the Select Committee for the consideration of the London Hydraulic Power Company Bill [H.L.]; read, and agreed to; all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bill.
  ASTON MANOR TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
    HIGHAM FERRERS WATER BILL [H.L.]

      IPSWICH CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
      LINCOLN CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS) BILL [H.L.].
      MENSTONE WATER (TRANSFER) BILL [H.L.].
      NEWPORT CORPORATION BILL [H.L.].
      NEWPORT (MONMOUTHSHIRE) GAS BILL [H.L.].
      LONDON HYDRAULIC POWER COMPANY BILL [H.L.].
      Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Manners of Haddon be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Earl of Dartrey; read, and agreed to.

  CHURCH'S PATENT BILL [H.L.]
    EAST STIRLINGSHIRE WATER BILL [H.L.]

      FALKIRK AND DISTRICT WATER BILL [H.L.]
      FALKIRK CORPORATION BILL [H.L.].
      MOTHERWELL WATER BILL [H.L.].
      EAST SHROPSHIRE WATER BILL [H.L.]
      HEMEL HEMPSTEAD CORPORATION (WATER) BILL [H.L.].
      GREAT BERKHAMPSTEAD WATER BILL [H.L.].
      Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Dartrey be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Manners of Haddon; read and agreed to.

  METROPOLITAN POLICE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
    MILITARY LANDS PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
    Brought from the Commons.
  METROPOLITAN POLICE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL [H.L.] (No. 21.)
    MILITARY LANDS PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL [H.L.] (No. 22.)
    Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
  EDINBURGH DISTRICT LUNACY BOARD BILL [H.L.]
    EDINBURGH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]

      ROTHERHITHE AND RATCLIFF TUNNEL BILL [H.L.]
      LONDON SEA WATER SUPPLY BILL [H.L.].
      SUNDERLAND CORPORATION BILL [H.L.].
      NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL [H.L.]
      NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
      Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; namely—

      V. Falkland,

      L. Colchester,

      L. Blythswood,

      L. Muncaster,

      L. Avebury (chairman);

      agreed to; and the said Lords appointed
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      accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday, the 20th instant, at Eleven o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  CANADA—WEST INDIES.
  Agreement between the Canadian Government and Messrs. Pickford and Black to establish a steamship service between Canada and the West Indies.

  CHURCH ESTATES COMMISSION.
  Forty-ninth Report from the Church Estates Commissioners, for the year preceding 1st March, 1900.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  GREENWICH HOSPITAL AND TRAVERS' FOUNDATION(CAPITAL AND INCOME ACCOUNTS, 1898–99).
  Accounts of the receipt and expenditure of the capital and of the income derived from the lands and other property held for the benefit of Greenwich Hospital and the foundation of Samuel Travers, Esquire, for the year ended 31st March, 1899; together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  Treasury Minute, dated 22nd February, 1900, declaring that Mr. Roger Faning Sleigh, sub-postmaster, Morley, Leeds, under the General Post Office Department, was appointed without a civil service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his department.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889 (SECTION 21).
  Ordinance No. 1 of the University Court of the University of Edinburgh providing for the separation of the teaching of medical jurisprudence of forensic medicine and public health in the University of Edinburgh; laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 20.)
  SIR JOHN SOANE'S MUSEUM.
  Statement of the funds, 5th January, 1900; Delivered (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
PETITION.
  CENSUS.
  Petition that a statement may be made in the next census of the religious denominations to which those enumerated belong; of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland; read, and ordered to lie upon the Table.
  LUNACY BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to order); Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

  SOUTH AFRICAN REPUBLIC AND ORANGE FREE STATE—STATE AND PRIVATE RAILWAYS.
  *THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I beg to move for a Return with reference to each of the railways in the Orange Free State and in the South African Republic respectively, showing whether such railways belong to the State or to private companies; and also giving the cost or capital value of the same. The object and purpose of this motion will, I think, be sufficently transparent and clear to your Lordships. In a certain set of circumstances which, I hope, may not be very far distant, it will be necessary to consider very carefully and closely the value of the railways in the two republics, and it seems to me essential that we should possess, so far as it is possible, the requisite knowledge in order to enable an intelligent opinion to be formed. It is not possible for an individual to secure this information with accuracy, but so far as I have been able to do so, I have looked into certain figures and facts which I have been able to obtain with regard to these railways, and if your Lordships will pardon me for a minute or two I will make a short statement with regard to them. I will take first the Orange Free State. The railway communication of the Orange Free State consists chiefly of the railway which runs throughout that State, and
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  which originally was made by the Cape Colony. It was also originally worked by the Cape Colony, but there was a clause in the agreement by which the Orange Free State was enabled, if at any time it should see fit, to purchase the same. Some few years ago, for reasons which I dare say we can now imagine, the Orange Free State saw fit to exercise this right of purchase, and they acquired the railway from the Cape Colony for £2,450,000, of which loan they have repaid £650,000. At the present time they owe to the Cape Colony £1,800,000. I wish to point out in passing that on this showing alone there is a clear sum of £650,000 by which the capital cost of this railway has been diminished, and which could be otherwise used in any future arrangement. I think that is all I need say with regard to the Orange Free State, although it is true that there is another short line which starts from the border of Natal, coming from Ladysmith, and which goes down to Harrismith and to Bethlehem. That railway was made by the colony of Natal, and at the present time, I believe, is worked, or was worked until October last, by them. When we come to the Transvaal Republic the question is a very much larger one. The railway system of that Republic, speaking broadly, belongs to one large and powerful company which has its headquarters in Holland, and which has in many very important respects mixed itself up in the business and the affairs of the State. Originally the concession in respect to the Netherlands Railway was given in the year 1884 to certain Hollander and German capitalists. In 1887 that concession was floated by them, and the company appeared in the following form. There were 2,000 shares of 100 guilders each. The nominal capital of the company at that time was £160,000 in round figures, and I would ask your Lordships' attention to the shares and the way in which they were divided. To the German shareholders 819 shares were allotted, carrying with them thirty votes; to the Republic itself 600 shares were allotted, carrying with them six votes; but to the Hollander portion of the shareholders 581 shares were allotted, carrying seventy-six votes. Therefore the Hollander shareholders, with less than one-third of the shares and less than one-third of the capital, had double as much voting power as the Transvaal Republic and the

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  German capitalists put together. Your Lordships will not be surprised, when I say that this arrangement was made at the time when Dr. Leyds was the attorney of the Transvaal Government. The system of railway extends now to 717 miles, and the capital, as it now stands, is £1,667,000, besides which obligations have been issued amounting to £7,000,000, so that the whole capital is £8,667,000. At the present moment—and this is a very important point—there are 14,000 shares issued, of which 5,758 shares belong to the Transvaal Republic and 8,242 to other persons. With regard to the pecuniary transactions and the financial position of the company itself, it appears from the accounts of 1898, which are very difficult indeed to understand, and are, I think, not intended to be understood, that there are no less than three different forms of giving dividends, but, as far as I can make out, the shareholders—of whom, of course, the Republic represents nearly three-sevenths—received about 14 per cent. upon their money, besides which there was a surplus which amounted to £608,000, of which 85 per cent., by the concession, went to the State, and 15 per cent. to the shareholders. Under that clause, in the year 1898, the sum of no less than £575,000 was paid to the South African Republic. It will be seen, therefore, what a valuable asset this ought to be. Not merely have you the value of the shares, but if things continue in the same way as up to the end of the year 1898 the State, or those who represent the State, will have at their control the sum of nearly £600,000. Your Lordships can calculate for yourselves on how much capital that sum alone would pay interest. The head office of this company is in Holland, but fortunately the line itself is in the Transvaal, and hereafter it is quite possible, and I hope it is quite certain, that very careful investigation will be made into the transactions of this company and into the manner in which they conduct their business. There is one other line in the South African Republic about which I should like to say a word. It is the Pretoria to Pietersburg line. I find that that line was registered in 1896 under British law. Fifty thousand £10 shares were issued, of which 30,000 belong to the Government and 20,000 to other persons. But, besides that, there
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  have been two issues of debentures, one of £250,000 4 per cent. debentures issued by Messrs. Morton, Rose and Co., and another of £700,000 which has been guaranteed by the Government. The history of this line is rather pathetic. It was finished in 1899, and in October of the same year, on the outbreak of the war, was seized by the Republican Government. At the present time the contractor's and others have, I understand, raised law suits. There are further lines in the Transvaal, on which it is hardly necessary to say anything. In respect to one, a Mr. Barend Vorster, a member of the First Raad, by presents and by corruption of every sort and kind openly administered to the members of the First Raad, and subsequently justified by President Kruger, obtained a concession. I do not know what the capital of the company is, but although the line itself is reported to be only 200 miles long, debentures for £500,000 were issued. That was also an arrangement which was made under the administration of Dr. Leyds in the year 1890. Your Lordships will not be surprised to hear that the contractor took the contract at £9,600 per mile, and two days later sublet it at £7,000 per mile, thus putting over £500,000 in his own pocket. There are some other smaller lines in the Republic. There is a line from Pretoria to Koomati Poort, and a line from Koomati Poort to Leydsdorp, with regard to the financial position of which I can obtain no information. I hope I have said enough to show that it is very desirable that we should have the information I ask for as early as possible. I submit to your Lordships that my inquiry for information is not a premature one. It has been said more than once lately that persons who have made similar motions have been endeavouring to divide the skin of the bear before he is dead. I do not propose to divide the skin of the bear, but I want to know whether he has a skin, and, if he has, what the value of that skin is. The mistake we have always made hitherto with regard to South Africa is that we have never done anything, or begun to do anything, until it was too late. The liabilities already entailed by this war amount, I think, to something like £60,000,000. This is to be paid, in the first instance, by the taxpayers of this country. It is quite clear that Parlia-

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  ment ought, and the taxpayers will expect them, to conduct the most minute investigation into the property of the two Republics, so as to ascertain what their powers are of paying for the war which they have forced upon us against our will and in so insolent a manner. I daresay there maybe other inquiries of the same sort which will have to be instituted. There should be a proper inquiry into the present position of the National Bank of South Africa, another of the financial concerns which have been largely, if not chiefly, started and held in Holland. I hope your Lordships will agree with me that it is desirable that this information should be laid upon the Table. I move accordingly.
  Moved, "That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty for a Return with reference to each of the railways in the Orange Free State and in the South African Republic respectively, showing whether such railways belong to the State or to private companies; and also giving the cost or capital value of the same."—(The Earl of Camper down.)
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of SELBORNE):My Lords, there is no objection to granting the Return which the noble Lord has moved for, though I cannot hold out any hope of being able to furnish it within any very brief interval of time, because much of the information that will be required to render the Return complete has yet to besought for. If the noble Lord will communicate to me the exact form in which he would like the Return to be made out, the Department which I represent will do its best to meet his wishes. The noble Lord has given a slight sketch of the history of the main lines in the Orange Free State and the South African Republic, and although the figures at my disposal do not in every respect entirely tally with those quoted by the noble Lord, yet I think the general sketch he has given to the House is an accurate one. The chief authorities at present available on this question—and there is a great deal of information to be found in them—are, in the first place, the Report of the Industrial Commission of the South African Republic; secondly, the Report on the Finances of that Republic for the year 1898; and last, but by no means least, the Experts'
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  Report of the Delagoa Bay Tribunal, which contains a mass of information on South African Railways. The noble Lord will not expect me now to express any opinion on the part of Her Majesty's Government on those points of future policy on which he has touched. But I can assure him that the Government are fully alive to the importance in South African politics of the system of South African railways. It is a commonplace—the influence of railways in this century on the development—social, industrial, and political—of various countries. But I do not know any region in the world in which the railway system is likely to play a more important part in these respects than South Africa.
  On Question, agreed to.

  U.K. AMBASSADOR AT WASHINGTON—RETENTION OF LORD PAUNCEFOTE BEYOND HIS PERIOD OF OFFICE.
  LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I rise to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the valuable services rendered by Lord Pauncefote as Ambassador at Washington, the advisability of further prolonging his tenure of office will be considered. In putting this question, perhaps it would be as well if I explained that there is an excellent rule in Her Majesty's Diplomatic Service, instituted, if I am not mistaken, by the noble Marquess the Prime Minister himself, that all persons holding office should retire on attaining the age of seventy. That rule has been rigidly observed, and the only exception I can recall is the case of the late Lord Lyons. Lord Pauncefote has attained the age of seventy, and his tenure of office has already, I believe, been extended for one year. It is the general feeling that under the exceptional circumstances which prevail a further relaxation of the official regulations might in this case be made with advantage. It is quite unnecessary, and it would, indeed, be presumptuous on my part to do so, to dwell on the excessive, I may almost say overwhelming, importance of our relations with the Government of the United States at the present moment, but there is no harm in saying that the task of maintaining those relations upon their present happy footing is not likely to prove less difficult in the immediate future. In addition to questions of great delicacy and great intricacy

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  which are now pending, we have looming in the near future a Presidential election, and as your Lordships are aware, a Presidential election in America is productive of political eccentricities which are unknown in older and less enterprising countries. I need scarcely remind your Lordships of the unfortunate occurrences which took place during the tenure of office of former Ambassadors. Under these circumstances it will probably have occurred to almost everybody that the present moment is hardly an opportune one for a change, more especially as this country happens to be represented by a highly distinguished public servant who not only enjoys the confidence of his own countrymen, but is in the happy position of being at once apparently a persona grata to the Government of the United States and also to the American people. I observe that the answer to the question which I have put on the Paper has already been supplied in anticipation by one of the newspapers. I have no means of ascertaining whether this semi-official announcement is well founded or not; but I am convinced of this, that if the noble Marquess is in a position to officially corroborate what has been unofficially stated it will give universal and unmixed satisfaction.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, my noble friend has rather done what the French call breaking in an open door, because this measure, which he properly recommends, was taken some days ago. I entirely agree, and every one must agree, in any eulogy passed on Lord Pauncefote, and I have shown that I concur with the noble Lord by the course I have taken in extending his tenure of office. The only observation I would make is that the noble Lord's question rather implied that this extension is a reward for valuable services. I think that the case stands the other way. It is to Lord Pauncefote we have to express our thanks that he has been kind enough to undertake the work for another period. He does so at considerable inconvenience, as he has sent his family to England, and without wishing to say anything indiscreet about the American climate, I believe the summer is not the most desirable period of the year. Therefore we have
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  every cause to express our gratitude to Lord Pauncefote that at a critical time when his remarkable experience and the singular aptitude he has shown in the fulfilment of the peculiar duties of his office render it desirable he should continue in it, he has consented to do so.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I think we may in one sense be grateful to the noble Lord opposite for mentioning this matter, although we were aware that the period of service of Lord Pauncefote was to be prolonged. It has given us an opportunity of expressing our great satisfaction with what has been done, and that Lord Pauncefote, at his age and at a time of the year when the American climate is not very agreeable, is willing to place his valuable services at the disposal of the Government for a longer period.

  SOUTH AFRICAN WAR—CLOTHING FOR THE TROOPS.
  THE EARL OF LEVEN AND MELVILLE: My Lords, I rise to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state what warm clothing is being sent out for the troops serving in South Africa during the approaching winter in that country. I venture to ask this question because I think there is at the present moment a feeling of uncertainty and even of anxiety abroad as to the question of the clothing for our troops at the seat of war. I notice in The Times of February 20th, in a private letter, a quotation from a telegram sent home by Major-General Barton, in which he asked for warm strong underclothing for his men, who were beginning to suffer greatly from the chill of the nights. It appears to me a serious matter when a general officer has to telegraph home in terms of that description for clothing which is really absolutely necessary if the men are to continue efficient and healthy at their work. Some time ago I had a letter from a colonel of one of our Line regiments who had had some money sent out to him with the request that he would provide his men with tobacco and other comforts. He replied that the Government had given the men thin linen drawers, which in a climate like that of South Africa, where men perspire, become damp and cold next the skin, and that he had spent £100 in procuring warm clothing. It must be remembered

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  that this letter and this telegram were sent at a date when they had practically summer weather, and that they are looking forward to a time when the weather will be much colder. Although at night the thermometer may not reach any low degree, the variation between the heat in the middle of the day and the temperature at night is very great. I know that to provide warm clothing will entail expense, but I am sure the noble Marquess will be one of the last to let the question of expense interfere with the reasonable supply of proper clothing for the regiments in South Africa. But behind the noble Marquess there always stands the Treasury. Even as a matter of economy warm clothing should be sent out. Every man is worth to the country at the lowest estimate £150, and if his health gives way not only are his services lost, but he becomes a burden, for he goes into hospital. Therefore, if you lose one man through the want of proper clothing you lose as much as would supply a regiment with the necessary articles that are required. A question on this subject was asked the other day in another place, and Mr. Powell-Williams is reported to have said in reply* that two flannel or worsted belts were issued to every man going to South Africa, and a reserve supply was being sent out. The Financial Secretary to the War Office also said that considerable reserves of warm clothing had already been sent out, and more would be sent as supplies came in. I do not think anyone would urge that flannel belts are sufficient, and I hope the noble Marquess will be able to remove the impression which certainly exists in many quarters, that if the men are to have the absorbent clothing necessary in that climate it will have to be provided by other means than at the expense of the Government.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE: My noble friend may rest assured that we are quite alive to the necessity of supplying the troops in South Africa with warm clothing of a kind suitable to enable them to stand the climate, which we all know is likely before long to become somewhat severely cold. I think the best way in which I can answer his question is
  *See The Parliamentary Debates [Fourth Series], Vol. lxxviii., p. 1226.
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  by giving him an idea of what we are doing, or are about to do, in regard to the principal articles of the soldier's wardrobe. In the first place, there is his fighting suit. That, as the House knows, is made of what we commonly call khaki—a word which, of course, describes the colour and not the material. The khaki clothing which, until the present campaign, has been issued to the Army has been cotton khaki, commonly called khaki drill. Of that khaki drill two suits have usually been issued to each soldier, besides the ordinary clothing for campaigning purposes. We are substituting for one of these suits a suit of khaki woollen serge, which is obviously much more suitable to the climate. Of these khaki serge suits, 140,000 have been sent out, either with the men as they embarked, or so as to follow them. That number ought to provide one suit for every man who has already started for South Africa. In addition to that, we hope to send out weekly consignments of from 10,000 to 15,000 suits of khaki serge. I am a little uncertain as to the exact number, because in this matter we are, to a certain extent, in the hands of the contractors; there are very few of them who are able to produce material of the quality which we require. Then, as regards shirts, each man takes out with him two flannel shirts. Besides these we have sent out 96,000, and we hope to go on sending them out at the rate of about 25,000 per week. Each man has a woollen jersey as part of his kit. We have already sent out 42,000 more to meet additional requirements, and we hope to send out jerseys at the rate of 20,000 a week. Then, each man has two flannel belts to start with. We have sent out 40,000 more, and expect to be able to send out others at the rate of 50,000 a week during the next few weeks. We are also sending out weekly a consignment of 50,000 pairs of woollen socks, and 330,000 pairs have already gone out. We have sent out 26,000 great coats, and hope to send out from 3,000 to 8,000 a week to replace those which originally went out with the men, and, no doubt, are beginning to show signs of wear. Then we shall send 10,000 woollen caps weekly to replace the woollen caps which went out with the men. I may also mention that in this campaign we have for the first time made an issue to the unmounted troops of woollen drawers.

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  Hitherto, I believe, it has been customary to give cotton drawers only, and these only to the mounted men. Therefore we have made a new departure which, I am sure, will commend itself to my noble friend. Before the cold weather sets in in South Africa we shall issue two pairs of woollen drawers to the whole of the dismounted troops; 200,000 pairs have already gone, and it is hoped to send out 20,000 pairs a week. The only other matter which I need notice is that of blankets. Each man took out two blankets with him. We have sent out 166,000 more, and we are continuing to send them out at the rate of 30,000 a month. Of course I need not tell your Lordships that these articles of clothing are issued quite irrespectively of those which the great generosity of the public has in many cases supplied to the troops. I have only to say before I sit down that I heard with regret that part of my noble friend's speech in which he endeavoured to persuade us that as a mere matter of economy it was desirable that we should supply a soldier liberally with clothing of this kind. He said—"Your soldier is worth £150 to you; therefore do not let him impair his health." I can assure him that that is not the point of view upon which we have gone, and I must also be permitted to add that in matters of this kind I have on no single occasion found the Treasury at all averse to supplying me with the funds which were required.
  THE EARL OF LEVEN AND MELVILLE: My Lords, I hope I may be allowed to thank the noble Marquess for his answer, and to express my satisfaction that these articles are being sent out. I had no intention of suggesting that the noble Marquess would look upon the supply of clothing to the troops from the point of view of economy, but what I said was that behind the noble Marquess there might be someone with whom the question of expense would weigh.

  BOER PRISONERS—PLACE OF CUSTODY.
  *LORD LOCH: I rise to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can give any assurance that the Boer prisoners, now amounting to several thousands, will not be interned in places in proximity to the Dutch districts of the Cape Colony, or in any considerable numbers in the Cape
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  peninsula. The question of which I have given notice is due to a considerable anxiety which I believe has been felt in this country as well as in South Africa with regard to the places where it is proposed to place the large number of Boer military prisoners who are now in Cape Town. The unrest which unfortunately exists in the Dutch districts in the southern portion of South Africa renders it a matter of very grave importance that these prisoners should not be interned in any near proximity to those provinces, or in those districts themselves. I am quite aware that there is great difficulty in finding proper and suitable places where they can be placed. There are, however, certain places on the east coast, as well as beyond the great naval station at Simons Bay, where there is a promontory on which some 3,000 to 4,000 men could be interned with the greatest ease and kept safely, without any chance of escape, by a very small force. I understand, however, that it has been suggested that some of the prisoners should be sent to St. Helena. I dare say there may be an advantage in sending some of them to that island, but I question very much whether the large number of prisoners, who now amount to between 6,000 and 7,000, could be located with any great advantage in that country. We must bear in mind that the majority of the Boers have never seen the sea, and they would regard being sent to St. Helena as a greater punishment inflicted on their prisoners than is meted out by the Transvaal Government to our prisoners at present in Pretoria. If, however, Her Majesty's Government have consulted Sir Alfred Milner on the question, and if he approves of the place where the prisoners are to be located, then I am quite satisfied that whatever decision may have been arrived at is the best both from political and military considerations. I have referred to the unrest which is at present unhappily on the increase in the Dutch districts in the southern part of the colony as well as in the northern portion, near Barkly West. I do not know whether your Lordships have observed that as success has followed our arms the agitation in these districts has increased. At least such is the information I have received by telegram and by letter. What is the cause of that increase of unrest? No doubt it arose from the fact that in the early part

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  of the war the tenacity of the Boers encouraged the Dutch population in the colony to believe that Her Majesty's Government would at last be forced to come to some understanding with the two Republics, based on a guarantee of their independence; but since the successes which have followed Lord Roberts's advance into the Free State, they must feel that all possibility of preventing the ultimate occupation, and I believe the occupation within a comparatively short period of Pretoria is at an end, and they must have observed that the general feeling in this country is such that we shall never allow a state of affairs to arise after the termination of the war such as existed prior to it. Their only course, therefore, is to agitate to the utmost to endeavour to make the Government believe that annexation would create trouble and rising in all parts of Cape Colony. Their agitation has also, I fancy, the object of encouraging that small minority in this country who believe that no interference should take place with the independence of the two Republics. But, my Lords, I am satisfied of one thing, and I am satisfied because I think I have a very fair knowledge of the Dutch character, that when Her Majesty's Government are able to declare positively what the future of the two Republics is to be—and I do not think any noble Lord can doubt what that decision will ultimately be—and if at the same time a statement is made based upon the same principles as those which were embodied in Lord Roberts's Proclamation to the Free Staters, all opposition will cease, as well as the agitation got up amongst the Dutch of the Cape Colony with the view of alarming, if possible, the Government as to what would result from that annexation. When they know for certain what the intentions of the Government are I believe that agitation will cease, and that in a very short time after the conquest of the two Republics is completed the burghers in both Republics will be found accepting the rule of Great Britain, and will prove to be as loyal as any citizens of Her Majesty's colonies, and as loyal as the French Canadians have proved themselves to be. I rejoiced to see the other day that the latter formed a company of the Canadian force which assisted Lord Roberts in his recent expedition. I trust it will not be long before Her Majesty's
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  Government will be able to make a clear statement as to what the future of the two Republics is to be. I now beg to ask the question standing on the Paper in my name.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I am sure my noble friend will acquit me of disrespect if I do not follow him through the very interesting statement he has just made to the House. My business is to answer his question. His question is whether I am able to give him an assurance that the Boer prisoners will not be interned in places in proximity to the Dutch districts of the Cape Colony, or in any considerable numbers in the Cape Peninsula. I am able to give him the assurance for which he asks.

  RETIRED ARMY OFFICERS AND THE MILITIA.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGE: My Lords, I wish to call the attention of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War to the regulations by which retired officers in receipt of retired pay or gratuity which they have earned by previous service in the Army are deprived of the same on the embodiment of the Militia regiment in which they are serving, as well as the gratuity which is granted to the other Militia officers on the disembodiment of the Militia; and to ask whether it would not be advisable to remove these restrictions under the present circumstances. To make it clear, perhaps it would be advisable for me to read the paragraph which appears in the Royal Warrant, It is as follows—
  "If a re-employed officer in receipt in regimental or staff pay, or pay as an officer of embodied Militia, has commuted his retired pay, a deduction equivalent to the amount of the retired pay at the time of commutation shall be made from his effective pay. If he has retired with a gratuity, the deduction from his effective pay shall be equivalent to the annual value of such gratuity, as determined actuarially according to the prospects of his life at the time of his receipt of the gratuity."
  I think it is universally admitted that it is of the utmost importance, as well as being most advantageous to the Militia, that there should be a certain sprinkling of Army officers in its commissioned ranks; but as long as such regulations as these exist it cannot be expected that many will be induced to come. When, a few weeks

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  ago,* the noble Marquess gave in this House his very able exposition of the general military policy of the Government, all Militia officers were very pleased to hear his eulogistic remarks about that old constitutional force. The noble Marquess said the position of the Militiaman was to be improved by granting him free groceries the same as had been granted to his comrade of the Line. Having, therefore, improved the position of the private in the Militia, I trust he will now do something for the retired Army officers serving with the Militia, and, even if he does not see his way to grant them the gratuity on disembodiment, that he will find the means of modifying the paragraph which I have read from the regulations.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The regulation to which the noble Lord refers lays down that "retired pay shall not be issued to an officer for any period during which he is in receipt of regimental or staff pay, or pay as an officer of embodied Militia." The State has a lien upon an officer in receipt of retired pay, and if such an officer is required or allowed to emerge from his retirement and to accept military employment it would not be fair to the public that he should receive both his retired pay and the pay to which such employment might entitle him. The only exception to that rule which I can discover is that made in favour of Militia or Yeomanry officers, who are allowed to receive retired pay as well as Militia or Yeomanry pay while they are employed on the preliminary drill and training of their regiments. I am not aware of the circumstances owing to which this exception was made. The training usually lasts about a month, and we have therefore decided that, in the case of officers serving with embodied Militia, they too shall be allowed to receive both full pay and retired pay for a period of one month. It is not the case that the gratuity has been withdrawn. It has been ruled that it shall be given to retired officers in all cases where they do not derive any advantage in the way of pension or gratuity owing to their re-employment. If they do derive such an advantage they
  *February 12th, 1900. See The Parliamentary Debates [Fourth Series], Vol. lxxviii., p. 1175.
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  may elect whether they will retain that advantage or forfeit it and draw the gratuity.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past Five of the clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten of the clock.