Lords Sitting of 1 March 1900

The Lord Ludlow sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  GREAT SOUTHERN AND WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  WESTGATE AND BIRCHINGTON WATER BILL [H.L.]
    EXMOUTH AND DISTRICT WATER BILL [H.L.]
    Committed: The Committees to Be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

  LONDON HYDRAULIC POWER COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
  NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
  NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL [H.L.].
  TAFF VALE RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
  FISHGUARD AND ROSSLARE RAILWAYS AND HARBOURS BILL [H.L.].
  RHYMNEY RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
  GREAT SOUTHERN AND WESTERN AND WATERFORD AND CENTRAL IRELAND RAILWAY COMPANIES AMALGAMATION BILL [H.L.].

  GREAT SOUTHERN AND WESTERN AND WATERFORD, LIMERICK, AND WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANIES AMALGAMATION BILL [H.L.]
  Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (DEFECTIVE AND EPILEPTIC CHILDREN).
  Minute of the Committee of Council on Education, dated 26th February, 1900, providing for grants on account of the education of defective and epileptic children, and prescribing conditions to be fulfilled by certified schools for such children.
  QUEEN ANNE'S BOUNTY.
  Annual Reports and Accounts of the Governors, for the year ended 31st December, 1899.
  RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC ACTS, 1854-1894.
  Eleventh Annual Report of the Railway and Canal Commission; with appendix.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (JUDICIAL RENTS).
  Return for the month of July, 1899.
  ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
  Fifty-second Report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England; with an appendix.

  TRADE REPORTS (MISCELLANEOUS SERIES).
  No. 522. Russian Railways.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  PHARMACY (IRELAND) ACTS, 1875 AND 1899.
  Order in Council, dated 21st February, 1900, approving of a regulation made by the Pharmaceutical Society.

  PITERS AND HARBOUR ACTS (PROVISIONAL ORDERS, SESSION 1900).
  Report by the Board of Trade of their proceedings under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, and the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, Amendment Act.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  UNIVERSITY OF LONDON ACT, 1898. Regulations made for the University of London by the Commissioners under the Act; Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 15.)

NEW BILL.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Acts relating to public libraries, museums, and gymnasiums, and to regulate the liability of managers of libraries to proceedings for libel—Was presented by the Lord Windsor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 16.)

  LUNACY BILL [H.L.] COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2: —
  Amendment moved—
  "On page 1, after line 22, to insert as a new subsection, '(2.) The judicial authority shall, in his report to the Commissioners, state definitely whether in his opinion the detention of the patient is or is not proper.'"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  *THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): Clause 2 deals with judicial authorities and reception orders, and I move this Amendment so as to compel the judicial authority to state definitely whether in his opinion the patient ought to be detained or not.
  On Question, agreed to.
  Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 3 to 10 agreed to.
  Clause 11: —
  Amendment moved—
  "To insert as a new clause, 'Section one hundred and sixty-nine of the principal Act shall be extended so as to permit a local authority to appoint not more than one-third of the visiting committee from persons not members of the local authority.'"—(Lord Norton.)
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I have no objection to accepting this clause.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clauses 11 and 1 2 agreed to.
  Clause 13: —
  LORD RIBBLESDALE: I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord who is in charge of this Bill whether he will encourage me at this stage to move a new Boarding-out Clause. I think my noble friend Lord Monkswell, who is unable to be here to-night, has explained its nature to the noble and learned Lord. If he can accept it now I will explain it to the House.
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I am afraid that at this stage of the Bill I can
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  not accept the Amendment. Personally, I see no objection to it, but there are two Departments of the Government interested —the Home Office and the Local Government Board—and until I have received their answer to a communication I have addressed to them I cannot go into the proposed new Clause.
  LORD RIB BLESDALE: Then I may move it at the third reading?
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: Yes.
  Clauses 13 to 18 agreed to.
  Clause 19: —
  LORD RIBBLESDALE: I move the omission of this clause because, in my opinion, it will lead to a good deal of unnecessary expense and inconvenience, and possibly friction. The plans of all asylums are subject to the approval of the Secretary of State (section 254 (2) Lunacy Act, 1890) after reference to the Commissioners (section 272 Lunacy Act, 1890), and I think this is sufficient for all practical purposes. The inconvenience and friction might arise in a case where a building was appropriated for some particular purpose and used under the advice of the Visiting Committee for another purpose. The London County Council also think that the provision of copies of the plans referred to would be very costly.
  Amendment moved—
  "To leave out Clause 19."—(Lord Ribblesdale.)
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I cannot agree to the Amendment. The clause? was discussed at considerable length and settled in its present form last session, and I see no reason why the Commissioners in Lunacy should not be consulted with reference to any alterations.
  Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Clause 19 agreed to.
  Amendment moved—
  "After Clause 19, to insert the following clause: —'The power of two or more local authorities to agree to unite in providing and maintaining a district asylum shall be construed as including a power to agree to unite in pro

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  viding and maintaining a laboratory for pathological research in connection with lunacy.'"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: This is a clause which the medical profession generally are very anxious should be inserted in the Bill. It enables local authorities to unite in providing and maintaining a laboratory for pathological research in connection with lunacy, and I see no objection to its insertion.
  New clause agreed to.
  Clause 20 agreed to.
  Clause 21: —
  Amendment moved—
  "In line 35, after 'widow or' to insert 'widowed.'"—(Lord Ribblesdale.)
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I cannot agree to this Amendment, because it would have the effect of excluding a woman who is not widowed but who has a helpless husband.
  LORD RIBBLESDALE: I am inclined to agree with the noble and learned Lord. I told the Asylums Committee yesterday that I thought it would be better to leave the wording as it is.
  Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  Clause 21, with verbal Amendments, agreed to.
  Clauses 22, 23, and 24 agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "After Clause 24 to insert the following clause: —'Section 335 of the principal Act (which relates to pensions of lunatics payable by public departments) shall extend to Scotland and Ireland.'"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: There is no reason why Scotland and Ireland should be excluded from the benefits of this section, and I therefore move that it shall extend to Scotland and Ireland.
  New clause agreed to.
  Clauses 25 to 27 agreed to.
  Clause 28: —
  Amendment moved—
  "In page 11, after line 14, to insert as a new subsection, '(5.) Notice of the determination of a reception order under this section shall be sent to the Commissioners by the manager of the institution or person having charge of the lunatic within two clear days of the date thereof.'"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: It is obviously desirable that notice of the determination of a reception order should be sent to the Commissioners, and I do not know why this provision was omitted.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  First Schedule: —
  Amendments proposed—
  "In page 12, line 5, to leave out 'bear such proportion to' and insert 'not be less than six sixtieths nor more than twenty-four sixtieths of'; in line 6, leave out all words after 'injury' to the end of (1); and in line 13, leave out 'to which he is entitled' and insert 'which he may receive.'"—(Lord Ribbtesdale.)
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I am unable to agree to these Amendments to the Schedule. In the first place, I doubt very much the competence of this House to deal with questions of taxation; and, in the next place, the objection to the Amendments on the part of the Treasury is a proper one. The Amendments alter the nature of the pensions for the rest of the Civil Service, and the Treasury will not agree to them. If the words proposed were put in here they would certainly be struck out elsewhere.
  LORD RIBBLESDALE: I cannot meet the taxpayer and Treasury objections, which are formidable in this House; but it was thought that the definitions "slightly impaired," "impaired," "materially impaired," and "totally destroyed," brought in such very subtle appreciations of injuries that it would be very difficult to estimate the amount of compensation. Can I move the insertion of the words in my Amendment, and let the Treasury object afterwards?
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I am afraid not.
  Amendments withdrawn.
  Schedules agreed to.
  *THE EARL OF HALSBURY: This Bill has twice been before your Lordships, and as the Amendments that have been inserted are of an unimportant character there is no necessity to refer it to the Standing Committee. I therefore move that the Standing Committee be negatived.
  Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received on Monday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 17.]

  SOUTH AFRICAN WAR—SUGGESTED FURTHER CALLING UP OF VOLUNTEERS.
  LORD BLYTHSWOOD: My Lords, I rise to call attention to the great necessity there is that 10,000 more Volunteers be called upon at once to fill up the regiments now in South Africa with grown men fit for the arduous work of the war now in progress, especially as it takes some time to organise such reinforcements; and that all expenses should be met by the Government and not by private subscription. I make no apology for bringing this very important matter to the attention of your Lordships, but before entering into it I must congratulate the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War on the successful consummation of the arduous work he and his coadjutors at the War Office have been engaged in during the past four or five months. I congratulate him also on the fact that that gallant soldier, Lord Roberts, who left these shores at a time when most men would have been stricken down with sorrow, has within the short time he has been in South Africa not only reorganised the army but has organised victory. We should not relax our exertions to support the army in South Africa in the arduous work they have got before them, and I do not think it is too much to call upon the Volunteers, who as we know are ready, to come forward and emulate the noble deeds of our soldiers, and help them to bring this war to a speedy conclusion. The Volunteers are anxiously looking forward to the answer of the noble Marquess, and I should like to know what is being done with regard to the waiting companies, and whether any equipment has been given to them. I think it is very necessary that equipment should be given to the Volunteers as soon as possible, because it is evident that their services will be required before long. As everyone knows, there is
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  nothing so expensive as haste, and I trust we shall take time by the forelock and place these men in a position to go out and join their comrades immediately they are wanted. All expenses connected with the equipment of Volunteers should be borne by the country. It is perfectly useless to try to run this war upon private subscriptions. You may just as well try to run the British Constitution upon voluntary effort and have no taxation at all. Voluntary effort has come forward in a marvellous manner during this war, upon which fact we may all feel proud. Voluntary effort has enough to do in looking after the widows and families of the brave men who go from our shores to uphold the Empire in its integrity, and in caring for the sick and wounded. I contend that voluntary effort should not be called upon to do that which the Government should do, and to provide money which should come out of the taxation of the country. Any person who looks down the subscription lists of any of our great towns will see that a certain number of people frequently contribute, and that there are a great many who never supply a single farthing towards any of these objects. I do not see why in the case of this war, which is a national matter, everyone should not be compelled to contribute towards the necessary expenditure.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I cannot leave without a word of acknowledgment the sympathetic expressions which fell from my noble friend in the preface to his remarks. I feel sure that what he said of the good news which reached us to-day echoed the feelings present in the mind of every man and woman in this country and in the British Empire. The shadow of impending calamity, which has darkened our path for so long, is at last removed. We heard of the relief of Ladysmith, I think, with two feelings—one of intense satisfaction that we should have escaped that calamity; the other of admiration for the men who have done this thing for us. If we are to apportion that admiration, I do not know whether the larger portion of it should be given to the force which, under Sir George White, has held out with such conspicuous determination and gallantry during these weary weeks and months, or to the troops, who, under the

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  command of Sir Redvers Buller, were undeterred by reverses and checks and by physical difficulties, the magnitude of which I doubt whether we even yet appreciate and understand; or last, but not least, to the Commander-in-Chief in South Africa, to whose splendid military instinct it is due that the pressure upon Natal should have been relieved by that vigorous and successful offensive movement in the Orange Free State of which we heard with such delight the day before yesterday. I shall certainly not differ from my noble friend when he tells us that this twofold success should not be made the pretext for any relaxation of our efforts. Those efforts will not be relaxed, and I recognise that the motion of my noble friend is germane to the subject, and that he is within his rights in calling our attention to it. I understand my noble friend to suggest that 10,000 additional Volunteers should be called upon at once to fill up the regiments now in South Africa, and I think it is clear from his observations that he referred to those battalions which have had added to them a company of Volunteers from this country. Of those Volunteers there are, either in or on their way to South Africa, a, little over 7,000 altogether; and, when it was decided that the Volunteers should be offered an opportunity of thus contributing to the strength of the field force, it was announced, in the Army order which was published, that an equal number of waiting companies might be maintained at home for the purpose of supplying the requirements of the companies in South Africa. The noble Lord tells us that we should make it our business to see that these waiting companies are thoroughly equipped and ready to start at short notice for the theatre of war. My Lords, there is one difficulty in the way, and it is rather a formidable one. It is this, that the waiting companies have not yet come forward to any great extent. For the original companies we required a total of sixty-seven companies. Of these we have obtained fifty-six. Of the waiting companies, four only have, I am sorry to say, up to the present time, been formed. And, of course, my noble friend knows that we have no power whatever to force Volunteers to enter either into the original companies or into the waiting companies. There are a certain number of men, I believe, ready to accept service in the waiting companies, and we have arranged that
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  even if a whole company is not forthcoming, individual Volunteers who desire to accept the liability should be permitted to proceed to South Africa as drafts. Then my noble friend spoke upon the subject of the manner in which the expenses of raising these companies had been defrayed. He told us that it was wrong to attempt to run the war by private subscriptions, and I think he must have left on your Lordships' minds the impression that the greater part of the cost of those Volunteer battalions had fallen upon private, and not upon public, funds. Nothing could be further from the truth. These men are, of course, paid by the State; they receive all the usual allowances as soldiers. They receive camp equipment, their transport is paid for them, and they receive a capitation grant to cover the cost of clothing equipment of £12 per head. I may be told that that capitation grant is inadequate. The sum was arrived at by calculating the cost of the different articles necessary for the Volunteers at the price at which they would have been procured if they had been bought by the War Department, and then adding to it 10 per cent. to cover the difference between the cost of purchase by private agencies and the cost of the same things when procured by public Departments. This 10 per cent. was not considered sufficient, and we raised it to 20 per cent. The original grant was £9, and the capitation grant ultimately paid was £12 per head, and I am assured that that sum ought to be sufficient to supply the necessary equipment. Of course, we know that the friends of the Volunteers and of the Imperial Yeomanry desire that these soldiers, who deserve all possible consideration at our hands, should be given something more than that which is strictly necessary, and hence it has come to pass that funds have been subscribed to all over the country with very great generosity. But these funds are intended, not to make good deficiencies in the payments out of the public purse, but to provide various things not strictly indispensable, but which add to the comfort and convenience of the different corps. Therefore I do not think it is quite fair that it should be suggested to your Lordships that these Volunteer companies have been run by private subscriptions. My own impression is that, however much the payments from public funds were to be, we should find that the

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  friends of the Volunteers desired to do something to show their sympathy and goodwill to the force. As my noble friend begged that we would not relax our efforts, and as the purport of his observations was to show that we were probably not doing quite enough to maintain the force in South Africa at a proper level, I would ask your Lordships' permission to tell you what reinforcements we are going to send out to South Africa during the next few weeks; and I cannot help thinking that when the figures are before the House your Lordships will see that there is not much risk of any part of the force suffering from inanition. In the week which will end on the 4th of this month eight ships are due carrying 4,700 men. In the week ending March 11 fifteen ships are due carrying 11,800 men; in the week ending March 18 eleven ships are due carrying 9,900 men; in the week ending March 25 nine ships are due carrying 8,900 men; and in the week ending April 1 six ships are due carrying 3,200 men, making in all the total of 38,817 men. And, over and above these, there are other troops about to proceed to South Africa, but not yet allotted to ships, who will arrive after the beginning of April, to the number of 17,880 men. They include 6,000 drafts for battalions of the Line and the infantry of the Eighth Division, numbering 9,500, all Regular troops. I trust, therefore, your Lordships will see from these figures that there is no prospect whatever of that stream of reinforcements of which I spoke the other evening running dry during the next few weeks.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I desire to associate myself, and I am sure my noble friends near me also wish to do so, with what the noble Marquess has said with reference to the news which we have received to-day. It has, I am sure, given the utmost gratification, not only in this country, but throughout the whole Empire. The noble Marquess spoke, I thought, with great justice of the extraordinary difficulties with which the forces under General Buller have had to contend. These difficulties have evidently been of a most serious character, and we must recognise from the gallantry and the perseverance shown by the troops under circumstances of extreme difficulty and danger that there never was a time when the British soldier displayed more courage,
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  perseverance, and endurance than he has on the present occasion. I need not allude to the brilliant success of Lord Roberts. That is appreciated by everyone; but I must mention in connection with it that I am quite certain that everyone in the country has heard with pleasure that it fell to the lot of our Canadian countrymen to perform most brilliant and effective service in the attack on the laager of General Cronje. It is not merely that we admire their bravery, but we recognise the fortunate circumstance that an occasion should have occurred to enable them to show that they are fully worthy to fight at the side of the best of our soldiers. I shall not attempt to enter into the question as to the Volunteers; but I may say that I have heard with great satisfaction the statement of the noble Marquess as to the number of reinforcements which either have been sent out or will be sent out, for of this I am convinced, that, although the cost may be great, and although the exertions necessary to collect the troops may be arduous, it would be far better that our preparations should be apparently larger than the occasion requires than that, if we should meet with unexpected difficulties, we should not be able to supply the force necessary to achieve success. Therefore, I say I welcome with great pleasure the statement of the noble Marquess, because I think it shows that the Government is fully alive to the necessities of the case, and is prepared to take every step to bring the war to a satisfactory conclusion.
  EARL SPENCER: I do not rise to add anything to what has been said by the noble Earl who has just sat down as to the pleasure with which we all received the news of the great success of British arms in South Africa, but to say that I am very glad to hear from the noble Marquess that the Government have agreed to raise the percentage to be paid towards the equipment of the Volunteers.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: It was done some time ago.
  EARL SPENCER: I do not think the public are quite aware of it. I know it will be a great relief in many places whore equipment funds have been raised. The noble Marquess stated that the waiting companies had not been filled up.

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  That is an important matter, and I hope that as the conditions under which they are to go out are more known these companies will secure all the men required. Though I recognise the immense importance of reinforcements going out to South Africa, I think it is of equal importance that the force which in its inception was intended for defensive purposes in England should be thoroughly and completely filled up. I should like to know when the Government will be in a position to state the new conditions which they are going to offer to the Volunteer force. I understood from the noble Marquess the other day that new arrangements would be made to ensure efficiency and to assist the expenditure of Volunteer corps. I attach very great importance to an early intimation of those arrangements. In my own county there is a pause at the present moment with regard to getting more Volunteers until they know what the arrangements of the Government are to be. Therefore it is of great importance that the arrangements which the Government are going to make to assist the Volunteers and to consolidate that very important force should be notified as speedily as possible.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I rise to confirm the statement of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War that the Government do supply the necessary expenses both of Volunteers and Yeomanry. It is so in those corps with which I am connected, and the subscriptions which have been raised have been applied to giving extra assistance to the men, and, what is a very sensible thing, in insuring their lives when they go to the front. I very much regret to hear that the additional Volunteer companies have not been coming forward in the numbers we had hoped, but I trust that very soon this will be the case.
  THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: I wish to ask the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War whether it is not the immemorial custom of this country, when a great victory is won, to celebrate the event by a salute of guns, and why this has not been observed on the present occasion.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am afraid I am quite unable to answer that question. I do not know what the
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  precedents are, or whether the present occasion is one which, according to immemorial usage, would be appropriate for firing salutes in the Park.

  SOUTH AFRICAN WAR—TELEGRAMS TO SOLDIERS ON SERVICE.
  *THE EARL OF LICHFIELD: My Lords, at the request of the noble Duke the Postmaster-General, I have arranged to postpone until next week the question standing in my name, which was to ask the Postmaster General when the scheme of registered telegraphic addresses for the troops in South Africa, promised by the Secretary of State for War, would be put in force.

  SHORT RANGE SHOOTING GALLERIES.
  THE EARL OF LEVEN AND MELVILLE: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the great difficulty in providing safe and accessible rifle ranges, they will consider the establishment in towns and villages of short range shooting galleries of 100 yards, to be open at night as well as by day, where Militiamen and Volunteers may, under a qualified instructor, practise the use of the regulation or some similar rifle adapted for a short range. I would venture to ask your Lordships' indulgence while I say a. few words on the subject of the question of which I have given notice. It is one which I think your Lordships will all admit is of national and of almost Imperial importance. Upon the encouragement of our Volunteers and Militiamen to practise rifle shooting depends to a very great extent their efficiency when called to the front. Unfortunately, it has happened, just at the time when this most important want is felt in the country, that there is an increasing difficulty in keeping up the existing ranges at which this practice has hitherto taken place. The noble Earl on the opposite side of the House told us the other day that even in the town of Winchester, which one would think from its natural position was admirably adapted for this purpose, there has been the greatest difficulty in providing ranges for the troops who are stationed there. And not only is it difficult to find new ranges, but the original ranges, as time goes on, are becoming so dangerous through the increased power of the rifle that it is necessary to move them greater distances from

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  the towns in which the majority of the men who use them live. A good many years ago, at the time when the Wimbledon ranges were being abolished, the noble Earl on the cross benches, the father of the Volunteers, endeavoured to get those ranges re-established at Richmond Park. On the 27th July, 1888,* Lord Wantage introduced this subject to your Lordships in presenting a Petition in favour of using a portion of Richmond Park as a site for the annual meeting of the National Rifle Association. In the course of the discussion on that occasion, the noble Earl on the cross benches pointed out that in his opinion the danger of these ranges was greatly exaggerated. He alluded to the case of a man who had lived in a house within a very few yards of the butts, and who remained in that house during the whole fortnight of the Wimbledon meeting, with the bullets in thousands pattering on the targets near him. The noble Earl said this man did not suffer in any way, and he used this as an argument to show that the ranges would not be dangerous in Richmond Park. The noble Marquess the Prime Minister, in his very terse reply, said that if it were true that the man referred to lived in that house with the bullets pattering round him every day for a fortnight from morning till night, except Sundays, then all he could say was, that man was worthy of his race. "But," added the noble Marquess, "I do not think you can expect everyone else to follow that great example, and rifle ranges must go further a field." From that day to this the tendency has been to drive rifle ranges further out, until to-day they are very much fewer and less accessible than they used to be, and the great majority of Volunteers find it extremely difficult to travel the increased distances in order to practise. It is of the highest importance that our Volunteers should have every facility we can possibly give them to practise the use of the rifle. In these days a thoroughly efficient rifleman in active warfare is worth considerably more than he used to be. We do not have great masses of men to fire at now, and every man must be able to "pick out" the individual enemy and hit him. The training of men for that purpose has become a national necessity. What is it
  *See The Parliamentary Debates [Third Series], Vol cccxxix, page628.
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  we really want to make our Volunteers good riflemen? The noble Lord on the opposite side of the House told us that the first and one great essential was that they should learn to hold their rifle absolutely still while they pressed the trigger. This sounds a very simple thing, but it necessitates much practice to enable a man to pull the trigger quite steadily without in any way moving the rifle. It does not require an ordinary range to learn this. The knowledge can be acquired in a confined space, and what I would really propose is that the Government should give assistance so as to establish in villages and towns throughout the country shooting galleries of short range similar to those which are very frequently met with in Switzerland, in Southern Germany, and throughout the United States. I mean ranges about 100 yards long by 30 or 40 yards wide, and if they were under proper Government control you would have the people running in during their spare half-hours to practise. They would thereby be offered facilities which for beginners largely excel those existing at the present ranges. It is a great drawback to men to have to practise at long ranges in the open, with the wind blowing and mist and rain obscuring the target. With the smaller ranges such as I have suggested the ammunition would be much less expensive, and if they were established in towns and villages where Militiamen and Volunteers might practise the use of the regulation or some similar rifle adapted for a short range the advantage would be considerable. I have ventured to bring this question to the attention of Her Majesty's Government in the hope that they will give it their serious consideration, and if my proposal is carried out we shall be able to count our riflemen not by thousands but by millions.
  *EARL STANHOPE: Before the noble Marquess replies, I should like to invite the Government to consider the desirability of affording facilities for acquiring rifles at a cheaper rate. It has comes to my knowledge that in the county of Kent a great many rifle clubs are being established, and there has been some objection raised on the ground that they will interfere with recruiting for the Volunteer force. That difficulty has been overcome in one club by the condition imposed by those who are forming the

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  club—namely, that each member should provide a rifle and pay an annual subscription. As a Lee-Metford rifle costs about £7, it would be regarded as a great boon by many young men who would like to have an opportunity of practising rifle shooting if the Government could afford facilities for acquiring rifles at a cheaper rate, and it would also have the effect of making them thoroughly efficient shots.
  LORD RAGLAN: The advantages of miniature rifle ranges were brought home to me a short time ago. Colonel Hill, who commands a battalion of the Gloucester Militia, put up a Morris tube range at his own expense in his camping ground, and he found that the men spent every spare moment practising at it, with the result that the shooting of his corps last year was the best in the Militia service.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I have already said enough in this House to make it clear that the War Office is entirely favourable to the principle of encouraging small local ranges and enabling Volunteers to obtain that amount of instruction in the use of the rifle which can be obtained at such ranges. I am, therefore, entirely in agreement with my noble friend in regard to the question of principle, but I am not quite sure whether I am ready to travel quite so far and quite so fast as he appears to be. His demand, as set forth in his question, is somewhat exacting, but I do not want to quarrel with him as to details, because I think his main idea is a perfectly sound one—that idea being, as I take it, that we ought to do all we can to encourage shooting all over the country, and that it is possible, at miniature ranges—I rather prefer that term to shooting galleries —to teach men to handle a rifle, and to shoot, at any rate, with a certain amount of accuracy and skill. There are several ways in which attempts have been made to arrive at the object which my noble friend has in view. There are, in the first place, short open-air ranges. I confess that the result of my inquiries as to these is not very encouraging. A report from the Commandant of Hythe says—
  "It is exactly these short ranges of 200 yards that are so dangerous—that is, if they are ranges laid out in a practical manner in the open. For it stands to reason that, if a bullet does get out and over the stop-butt or to one
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  side, it will range a greater distance than it would if it bad been tired, say, at 1,000 yards, for it will have 800 yards further to fly. People do not seem to think of this when advocating these short ranges: just as much care must be taken to guard the public as in the case of the longer ranges."
  I believe that to be a very sound view. Then there are the screened or protected ranges. There are one or two of these ranges in existence. There is one, I believe, at Wormwood Scrubbs and another at Hounslow. I am told that the drawback to them is, in the first place, that they are very costly. Then, they cannot be used at night, and there is the further drawback that the man has to shoot through a small aperture, so that it is impossible at those ranges to indulge in practice at the running deer and running man, and other practices of the kind which, I believe, are so popular. Then there remains the closed range. There are, I am told, some of these in existence, and they have the merit of not being so costly as the screened ranges. There is one, I believe, at Kennington and another at West Ham. The Kennington range was put up by the 4th V. B. of the Royal West Surrey Regiment at a cost of £900, and I am told it does not cost more than £30 a year to keep it up. The West Ham range—100 yards—cost £320. These ranges are really very useful institutions, although, of course, it is impossible to regard them as a complete substitute for open-air ranges. My noble friend seemed to think it most fortunate that at such ranges it was possible to exclude wind and other climatic variations, but the fact that those climatic variations are not present diminishes considerably the value of the instruction which can be obtained at these ranges. The Government are perfectly ready to give encouragement to these miniature ranges. We prefer, however, to give the encouragement to others rather than attempt to create such ranges for ourselves. The matter is one of local, as well as of general interest; the money will go further; and there is also this to be said, that local agencies are much more likely to obtain the land upon reasonable terms than a great central department. The Volunteers are already, under the Military Lands Act, 1892, in a position to purchase land compulsorily for ranges, and the same Act empowers the Public Works Loan Commissioners to lend money to Volunteer corps for the purchase of land.

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  In such cases it would, I think, be for the War Department to consider whether a subsidy from the public funds might not be given. There is the question of the provision of such ranges by local authorities, by county or borough councils. I believe I am right in saying that the councils can under the existing law purchase land compulsorily for ranges. In the ease of a county council the Military Lands Act (1892) empowers it to defray the expense of the purchase from the county fund, and in the case of borough councils from the borough fund or borough rates. The Act also empowers a borough council to borrow money on the security of the borough fund or borough rate for acquiring land under the Act, but, as far as I can make out. it does not give power of borrowing to the county councils. It is possible, however, that the councils have such powers under some other Act, but I have not been able to ascertain. At any rate, I am able to say that if these local authorities determine to exercise their powers and to provide small local ranges, we should be ready to consider whether they should not be assisted in the same way as the Volunteer corps by means of moderate grants of public money. I may, perhaps, tell your Lordships that we intend to provide, in addition to the sum already taken under the Military Works (Loans) Act, an additional sum of £100,000 for the purpose of assisting local ranges. There is another step which I have in contemplation to take, and which I think might have useful results. It is to depute an officer to visit some of those small ranges, on the Continent especially, to see whether we have not something to learn. A noble Lord asked me to define our attitude with regard to rifle clubs. I think that is a matter which requires a good deal of consideration. Our feeling is that if we give too much encouragement to rifle clubs and make it too easy for such clubs to obtain grants of public money we may deal a very hard blow to the Volunteers. We wish to avoid that. The noble Earl's other suggestion was that we might sell Lee-Enfield rifles at cheap rates—I presume to persons who are not Volunteers. If my noble friend will consider what that means he will see that it would involve really the equivalent of a money subsidy to such persons. I cannot help thinking that if aid is to be given it is better to give it openly and above board rather than to sell below the
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  cost price a rifle or any other article of equipment.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I entirely sympathise with the views of the noble Earl who brought forward this question, but I think it is a pity that he limited the range definitely to one hundred yards. This is a very short distance, and I think it will be possible to obtain ranges of two hundred yards quite as easily as ranges of one hundred yards. The latter should only be considered where the two hundred yards ranges are absolutely impossible. While I do not think it will be possible for the Government to dot these short ranges all over the country, I do think they might very well consider whether there should not be attached to, or somewhere near, the headquarters of every regiment, Regular and Auxiliary, a short range of such a character, at which either soldiers or Volunteers might practise and acquire efficiency under comfortable and easy conditions. Probably some revenue might be obtained out of such ranges by allowing the rifle clubs in the district to use them at such times as they were not required by the Regular troops or the Volunteers. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State expressed the sympathy which he has shown all through whenever this subject has been raised, but he did not speak too favourably of the opinion of military authorities with regard to short ranges. Now, what is the reason why short ranges are not popular, and are not used more by military and Volunteer authorities? It is because proficiency at short ranges is not recognised for the purpose of efficiency. If you allowed Volunteers to acquire efficiency by firing a certain number of shots at short ranges, the practice at the longer ranges could be deferred until the men were able to shoot accurately at the shorter ranges. I think it would be well to go back to the earlier practices of rifle shooting, and to insist to a much greater extent upon standing shooting at short ranges. When I learnt rifle shooting at Harrow we had to shoot standing up at 300 yards. A man who will make an accurate practice standing up at 300 yards will find very little difficulty in making accurate practice at 600 yards in any position, and I think that should be more considered in the matter of regulations for musketry and musketry instruction. The noble Mar-

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  quess quoted the opinion of the commandant at Hythe, who said that ranges at 200 yards were even more dangerous than long ranges, because if a bullet got out over the stop-butt or to one side, it would range a greater distance than if it had been tired at 1,000 yards, for it would have 800 yards further to go. But a man to tire so wide of the target at 200 yards as to create great danger must let his rifle off accidentally, and if you have to provide against accidental shots of that sort I do not think that any range can strictly be described as safe. The noble Marquess then went through the various kinds of ranges. I think he will find that screened ranges up to 200 yards can be erected at a very reasonable cost. A screened range is a range which has three or four or more screens across it, with holes for the targets to be seen through from the firing point. These screens need not be of very costly construction. Probably the cheapest way of putting up the first screen—which is the most important one, as it receives the greater number of crooked shots—is to put up an iron screen, giving it a timber facing of old sleepers. This will prevent any stray shots going off the screen, as they will go into the timber and be caught on the iron. The other screens are required only for the purpose of catching bullets which happen to hit against the edges of the aperture of the first screen. This kind of range is, I believe, exceedingly common in Switzerland. They can be put up at an extremely reasonable cost, and I am told that a range of 200 yards for as many as thirty targets can be accommodated on one acre of ground. I think it is rather remarkable that in Switzerland, a country which has been alluded to more than once tonight, practically all the ranges are short ranges. Of, I think, 2,700 ranges which are under Government inspection in Switzerland, none exceed a distance of 600 yards, while no fewer than 02 per cent. of the 2,700 are ranges only going up to 100 yards. I think it will be found that the Swiss shooters are at any rate equal to our own. I would suggest that it would be a very good plan if Her Majesty's Government would consent to institute an inquiry, not only as to ranges, but as to our muskety regulations. That inquiry might be carried out by a small commission consisting of two experts in military musketry, two civilians, and a
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  man acquainted with the practice abroad. We might improve the efficiency of our shooting, both in the Regulars and in the Volunteers, by giving greater facilities for shooting, and, above all, by encouraging efficiency at short ranges which are easily accessible. In the matter of ammunition the War Office are extremely stingy, and as an instance of their stinginess I may mention that to Lord Lovat's Highland gillies who are going out to South Africa there have been served out 7,000 rounds of cartridges, or not quite thirty rounds a man. The efficiency of these men as shots has turned out to be very high indeed, and their experience has only been acquired at short ranges. But in order to enable them to attain their high efficiency, we have been obliged to purchase 15,000 additional rounds of ammunition to keep them going at the targets, and I maintain that such economy on the part of the War Office is very shortsighted. The noble Marquess said he did not consider it desirable for the Government to create such ranges themselves. I am afraid I rather join issue with my noble friend on that point. So far as your own forces are concerned, whether Regular or Auxiliary, you should provide ranges yourselves and not leave their provision to private enterprise. The noble Marquess said that at the present moment county councils are able to acquire land compulsorily for ranges, providing the Volunteer corps within their jurisdiction ask them to do so. But I am practically sure they have not the power to do anything in the way of helping Volunteer corps in their district to rent ranges. In that respect the Government might consider the advisability of enlarging the powers of the county councils. Further, I should like to ask whether the Government, in the proposals they are going to put forward for aiding Volunteer corps to acquire ranges, would be willing also to help them to rent ranges. As I understand the noble Marquess, their only idea is to help corps to purchase ranges, but I think it would be a good thing if the Government could give an annual subsidy towards the renting of ranges.
  *THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: Your Lordships may like to know, with regard to the action of county councils in this matter, that the subject was considered yesterday at a meeting of the

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  Executive Committee of the County Councils Association, and everyone who spoke expressed a desire to assist the Government in every possible way. My noble friend the Secretary of State for War has explained the law on the matter. The county councils have, no doubt, power to acquire land compulsorily for ranges, but the power can only be exercised under the system of Provisional Order, which is a long and, in the case of opposition, a very expensive process, because the Provisional Order then has to go before the Committees of both Houses of Parliament. Therefore, my own opinion is that compulsory power is hardly likely to be exercised by county councils or Volunteer corps under the present conditions of the law, but a great deal might be done if the county councils were given power to hire land by voluntary agreement for ranges. The Secretary of State was right in saying that in matters of this kind it is wise for the Government to use the local authorities, and that county councils are able to deal with cases of this kind probably with greater facility and greater economy than the Government. There would be an inquiry held on the spot, and I do not conceive that it would be difficult to acquire or hire land in the neighbourhood of any small town where there is a company of Volunteers. The question of hiring land for ranges compulsorily is much more difficult. The Executive Committee of the County Councils Association has referred this question of ranges to a committee which has been called together by the County Council of Middlesex. Mr. Littler, the chairman of that council, who is, as your Lordships know, a distinguished lawyer, has taken up this question very carefully, and I hope we shall be able to propose to the Secretary of State some legislation, and that the Government will either introduce a Bill or allow a private Member on behalf of the County Councils Association to do so. I am sure that the statement made by my noble friend, to the effect that the Government are prepared to reimburse the county councils the cost of hiring these ranges, or buying them, will facilitate matters very much, because there might be opposition on the part of county councils to charge the rates with the expenses of either buying or hiring
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  ranges. And for this reason. This is not a matter which would affect the whole of the county. Nine-tenths of the county might receive no advantage, and only one particular part might profit by the construction of the range. Therefore, there might be opposition on the part of the county generally to pay for what would benefit only a small portion. I do not say there will be any opposition to bear some moderate expenditure in the matter, because the whole country is anxious to support the Government in every way in the present war, and more especially to encourage efficient rifle shooting by the Regulars and Volunteers.
  LORD WENLOCK: I should like to ask my noble friend the Secretary of State for War whether he can say how long it will be before the War Office are likely to receive the report of the officer who is to be sent abroad to inquire into the provision of miniature rifle ranges. There is a hot fit on at the present time, and it would be useful if we could know how soon the Government will be able to tell us the best form of rifle ranges.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am not quite sure whether the noble Lord who spoke last is reasonable. I said that I was prepared to send an officer to examine some of these miniature ranges which have been so favourably spoken of, but I cannot yet tell the noble Lord who the officer will be. I shall have to find him, and how long he will require to make his report I cannot say. I am glad to hear that the Executive Committee of the County Councils Association have taken this matter up. They can do so with advantage, and I gladly assure the noble Earl that I shall be ready to communicate fully and freely with him in the hope that between the committee of the association and the War Office we may hit upon a practical solution of the difficulty.
  EARL SPENCER: May I ask the noble Marquess whether he is prepared, out of the money which the Government propose to devote to the provision of ranges, to make contributions towards the renting of ranges required by Volunteers?
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I I know of no objection to doing so, and I should like to consider each case on its merits.
  LORD NEWTON: With reference to what has been said as to the practice of foreign nations in the provision of rifle ranges, I should like to ask the noble Marquess whether there are not innumerable reports on this subject which have been sent during past years to the Intelligence Department. Surely it is part of the duty of a military attache to report on questions of this sort, and I shall be very much surprised if it is not found that there are already a long series of reports from our military attachés on the; practice of various countries in the matter of rifle ranges.
  *THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I will gladly make inquiries on that paint, but I have not seen any papers of the sort myself.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.