Lords Sitting of 25 June 1900

LORD INCHIQUIN.
Report made from the Lord Chancellor that the right of Lucius William, Baron of Inchiquin, to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
ROYAL ASSENT.

  COMMISSION.
  The following Bills received the Royal Assent:—

  1.Public Health (Ireland).

  2.Uganda Railway.

  3.Electric Lighting Provisional Orders

  4.Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3).

  5.Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4).

  6.Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5).

  7.Rhymney Iron Company.

  8.Church's Patent.

  9.Otley Urban District Council Water.

  10.Cork, Bandon, and South Coast Railway.

  11.Higham Ferrers Water.

  12.Cleethorpes Gas.

  13.Dundee Harbour.

  14.London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway.

  15.Governments Stock and other Securities Investment Company.

  16.Southport Water.

  17.Hastings Harbour.

  18.Maidenhead Gas.

  19.Glastonbury Corporation Gas.

  20.Manchester Ship Canal.

  21.Central London Railway.

  22.Lancashire Inebriates Acts Board.

  23.Dorking Water.

  24. Fishguard Water and Gas.

  25. Menstone Water (Transfer).

  26. Newport Corporation.

  27. Newtown and Llanllwchaiarn Urban District Gas.

  28. Cowes Pier.

  29. Great Central Railway.

  NEW PEER.
  The Right Hon. Sir Peter O'Brien, Baronet, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, having been created Baron O'Brien of Kilfenora in the county of Clare—was (in the usual manner) introduced.
  The Earl of Londesborough sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

Christchurch and Bournemouth Tramways.

Blackpool, St. Anne's, and Lytham Tramways.

British Gas Light Company (Staffordshire Potteries).

Rickmansworth and Uxbridge Valley Water.

Lancaster Corporation.

St. David's Railway Abandonment.

West Bromwich Corporation.

And also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

Local Government Provisional Orders

(Gas). Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5).

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

GREAT BERKHAMPSTEAD WATER BILL [H.L.]
  MOTHERWELL WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.

AIRDRIE, COATBRIDGE, AND DISTRICT WATER TRUST BILL.
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table. The orders made on the 30th of

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April and 28th of May last discharged; and Bill committed for To-morrow.

WOLVERHAMPTON GAS BILL.
  CALEDONIAN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]

    WOODBRIDGE DISTRICT WATER BILL.
    LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE RAILWAY BILL.
    LONDON AND SAN FRANCISCO BANK BILL [H. L.].
    HAMMOND (G. H.) COMPANY BILL [H.L.].
    CRYSTAL PALACE COMPANY BILL [H.L.].
    Reported with Amendments.

LATIMER ROAD AND ACTON RAIL-WAY BILL.
Reported with an Amendment.
HAMILTON, MOTHERWELL. AND WISHAW TRAMWAYS BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
AIRDRIE AND COATBRIDGE TRAM- WAYS BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the whole House Tomorrow.
LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
ST. ALBANS WATER BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY (WALES) BILL.
  DEVONPORT CORPORATION BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
MORECAMBE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (GAS) BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
SOUTH EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  WITHINGTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
BELFAST AND COUNTY DOWN RAILWAY BILL.
  GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
BIRMINGHAM (KING EDWARD THE SIXTH) SCHOOLS BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
LEE CONSERVANCY BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Rosse be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Ribblesdale, and that the Earl of Rosse be Chairman of the said Committee; read and agreed to.
READING CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS) BILL.
  WELLINGBOROUGH AND DISTRICT TRAMROADS BILL.

    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (SP1TAL-FIELDS MARKET) BILL.
    WOLVERHAMPTON, ESSINGTON, AND CANNOCK CHASE JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.
    NORTH METROPOLITAN RAILWAY AND CANAL BILL.
    MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL.
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Dartrey be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Carysfort (E. Carysfort); read, and agreed to.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL [H.L.]

  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order). Amendments made; Standing

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  Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order). Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order). Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order). Bills reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a to-morrow.
WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
METROPOLITAN COMMON SCHEME (PETERSHAM) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
GAS PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) BILL. (No. 123.)
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL. (No. 124.)
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; referred to the Examiners; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(The Lord Balfour.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL. (No. 125.)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL. (No. 126.)
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (POOR LAW) BILL. (No. 127.)
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; referred to the Examiners; and to be read 2a To-morrow.—(The Lord Harris.)
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  CERTIFIED INEBRIATE REFORMATORIES (REGULATIONS FOR MANAGEMENT).
  Regulations made with the approval of the Home Secretary for the management and discipline of the Farmfield Certified Inebriate Reformatory, Charlwood, near Horley: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
NEW BILL.
  COLONIAL STOCK BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Colonial Stock Acts, 1877 and 1892, and the Trustee Act, 1893—was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 122.)

  MILITIA BALLOT BILL [H.L.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS: My Lords, I had hoped to-day to move the Second Reading of what really is the Government's Militia Ballot Bill, which stands in my name; but this morning I was asked, on behalf of Members of your Lordships' House who take great interest in this and similar questions, to put it off, and I have agreed to postpone it for a week. I hope this adjournment will not be inconvenient to your Lordships, but I do not think I can do other than postpone it under the circumstances. But I can give your Lordships this assurance, that if I am alive on this day week I shall move the Second Reading of the Bill, because I fully recognise the importance of the question, and, if the noble Marquess will allow me to say so, the fatuous futility of his emergency measures.
  Second Reading, by leave of the House, put off to Monday next.

  POOR REMOVAL BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD HARRIS: My Lords, this Bill, which has passed through the House of Commons, has for its object the removal of a grievance which has been long felt in Ireland. In Ireland there is no law of settlement in force, and persons born in England or Scotland who are resident in Ireland, and find it necessary to apply for relief, cannot under any circumstances be removed to Great Britain. On the other hand, persons born in Ireland to whom relief has been given in England or Scotland might, under certain conditions, be removed to Ireland, notwithstanding that they had been for a long while resident in Great Britain. The existing law has for many years given rise to complaints by the Irish Members and others. In the case of Scotland, the grievance has been removed by the Poor Law (Scotland) Act, 1898. Under the existing law in England a person born in Ireland who resides continuously for a term of three years in any parish without receiving relief acquires a settlement in that parish, and if a person who applies for relief has resided in a poor-law union continuously for one year immediately preceding his application without having received relief, he cannot be removed if he applies for relief in that union. If, however, he applies for relief in a union in which he has not resided continuously for such twelve months, he may be removed to the union in which he is settled, and in default of a settlement may be transhipped to Ireland. The only cases in which there would seem to be hardship under the present law are those in which a person born in Ireland has passed a number of years in England without acquiring a settlement, and has not resided continuously for a year in the union in which he is resident when he requires relief. This hardship will be removed by the provision in Clause 1 (1) of the Bill, which will enact that a person who has resided continuously for five years in England shall not be removable to Ireland. The result of this will, of course, be that if he requiries relief in England he will have to be relieved in the union in which he is residing unless he has acquired a settlement in some other union. The law in force in England will be assimilated by the clause to that of Scotland under the Poor Law (Scotland) Act, 1898. Clause 1 (2) of the Bill will empower a board of guardians in England, instead of removing a pauper to Ireland, to agree with the board of guardians in
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  Ireland to whom he would be chargeable or the maintenance of the pauper at the expense of the last-mentioned board of guardians. This provision is intended to meet cases in which the removal of the pauper would be inadvisable on the ground of old age or sickness, or some other sufficient reason.
  Bill read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the whole House To-morrow.

  UNION OF BENEFICES ACT, 1860, AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, the object of this Bill is to extend the operation of the Union of Benefices Act, 1860, outside London. The evils which that. Act was intended to remedy are not confined to the metropolitan area, but are to be found in a great many other parts of England. I myself tried repeatedly to get the same thing done in the city of Exeter, when I was. bishop there, as is done by this Act for metropolitan parishes. There are twenty-one parishes in the city of Exeter, several of them very small. The incomes are also very small, and it would certainly be a great gain for the working of those; parishes if several could be united and the incomes amalgamated. The same thing, applies to the city of Norwich, where there are thirty benefices or more. All of them are very small, with very small incomes, and the application of this Act. to such a city would, I have no doubt, be of great benefit to the working of the church in that city. I remember Bishop Pelham of Norwich once telling me that he wished very much indeed that this Act could be extended so as to include places like his own city. There are a great number of similar cases scattered about England, and the need for dealing with them having become stronger and stronger, a Bill has accordingly been drafted to extend the operation of the Act of 1860 to the whole of England and Wales, subject, of course, to the same limitations as are to be found in the principal Act. The Bill simply extends the principal Act, and its clauses consist

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  solely of modifications of that Act so as to adapt it to the needs of other places than the metropolis. For instance, in the first sub-section it is provided that the references in the principal Act to the Bishop of the Diocese of London or of Winchester, which covered the metropolitan area at that time, shall be construed as references to the bishop of the Diocese in which the benefices are situate, which are to be united outside the metropolis. In the working out of the principal Act, certain Commissioners were appointed, one by the Dean and Chapter of St. Paul's, two by the Bishop, and two by the Corporation, or, in the event of the Corporation not acting, by the vestries of the parishes concerned. The Bill proposes that instead of these Commissioners—it is clear that they would not be suitable all over England—there should be a Commission of seven, two to be appointed by the Bishop, one by the patron of each of the benefices, one by the vestry of each of the parishes to be united, and a magistrate nominated by the person who has presided as chairman of the last preceding Quarter Sessions for the county or division of the county, or if there be no such person then by the Lord Lieutenant of the county. This Commission is of the same character as the Commission in the principal Act, and I have no doubt your Lordships will see that it consists of persons to whom such work can be properly entrusted. Where the Bishop causes proposals for a scheme of union to be prepared, it is here enacted that he should send them in the first instance to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. As there will be on the Commission representatives of the vestries, it is not proposed to send the proposals to those bodies, but to forward them straight to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for them to prepare a scheme. That is the principal adaptation. There are also two or three minor adaptations. At the end of Section 11 of the principal Act it is provided that the calculation of the income, where there is any surplus, is to be based on the income for the seven years immediately following the Act itself. It is now proposed that the seven years should be fixed by a date in the scheme formed as I have described. In other respects, the provisions of the Bill are simply adaptation which it is not necessary to go into in detail. There is one sub-section, however, which lies a little outside the
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  purview of the others—Sub-section 8. A power is given in that sub-section to take down a consecrated chapel of ease which it is found is no longer of any use. Of course, when you have a chapel of ease which is no longer needed it is better to remove it, because otherwise there is a duty imposed on the clergyman of the parish which is onerous to him and of no advantage, as the case stands, to anybody else. This is a very simple measure, as your Lordships can see. It is nothing more than an adaptation of an old Act, but I can assure your Lordships that something of the sort is very necessary.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, it is not very easy to understand exactly what the effect of this Bill will be, and I should be very glad if the most rev. Prelate could tell us whether it makes any alteration in the essential provisions of the present law. It is only where parishes adjoin, and the churches are within a certain distance of each other, that a union can take place at present, and I should like to know whether that limitation will be interfered with by this Bill if it becomes law, and whether it will be in the power of anyone other than the bishop to initiate proposals. In some cases it would be a hardship, and a very serious one, to unite two livings without the consent of the patron; and it may be sometimes extremely objectionable that there should be taken away from a patron the right to appoint to a particular parish. I am sorry to say that the divisions in the Church at present are of so serious a nature that it may easily happen that a parish where the patron hitherto has been able to secure those who are faithful to the principles of the Church of England may be united with a larger parish, with the result that the state of affairs in the parish where hitherto the patron has been able to prevent the appointment of clergymen who are distasteful to the inhabitants may be altogether changed.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I can assure the noble Earl that the Bill makes no change in the law with regard to patronage as settled by the Act of 1860, nor with, regard to

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  the limitations that only parishes that are contiguous can be united. I do not think there is any reason to fear that the rights of patrons will not be safeguarded under this Bill just as they are now under the Act of 1860.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I thank the most rev. Prelate for his explanation, but I wish to say, in order that I may not be misunderstood, that I am strongly in favour of the general principle of uniting these small livings.
  On Question, agreed to. Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

  RESERVE FORCES BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order). Bill reported without Amendment, and recommitted to the Standing Committee.

  MILITARY MANŒUVRES BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1:—
  LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I understand that the original Act, the Military Manœuvres Act of 1897, may be modified under this Bill so that areas may be used for consecutive years without the limitation of five years. I should like to know if that is so.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Marquess of LANSDOWNE): My Lords, this change in the main Act was made on the recommendation of the Manœuvres Commission, which was appointed under the Act of 1897. The point which they had to deal with was this: Under the main Act the same land may not be scheduled more than once in five years, but, having once been scheduled, it cannot be scheduled again, whether' it is used or not. What this Bill does is to enable us, when land has been scheduled and not used, to schedule it again within the same period of five years, but only once.
  Clauses 1, 2, and 3 agreed to.
  Clause 4:—
  LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I observe that it is mentioned in the first
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  section of Clause 4 that the Secretary of State may use the areas which are "delineated and coloured red on the maps-signed for the purposes of this Act by the Speaker of the House of Commons and deposited at the War Office." What I want to ask is, will these maps be sent down to the local authorities concerned previous to being sanctioned by Parliament? As regards the district in which I live—namely, the New Forest—there is considerable anxiety on this subject, and the local authorities would, no doubt, be glad to know what the area selected was, in order that they might, if they thought desirable, raise objection to it before it was actually sanctioned by Parliament.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I think the suggestion of my noble friend is a very reasonable one. In the case of the area in which he is particularly interested I have already given instructions that an officer is to be deputed to visit the locality, and, if necessary, confer with the occupiers or owners of the land in the neighbourhood. I have no doubt that my noble friend has noticed that there is another sub-section in the same clause, under which it is laid down that before any of these lands can be used in the manner proposed notice has to be given by advertisement in the newspapers. I can assure my noble friend that every possible exertion will be made to avoid any inconvenience to those who reside in the neighbourhood of the land over which these military manœuvres are to take place.
  LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: Will the local authorities be given an opportunity of expressing an opinion before the areas are sanctioned by Parliament, or afterwards?
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I do not think it will be possible to alter the areas after the Bill has been passed through Parliament, but while the Bill is passing through Parliament there will be every opportunity given to those who desire to criticise the areas which have been included.
  Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.
  Bill reported without amendment; and recommitted to the Standing Committee.

  COUNTY SURVEYORS (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order). Bill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

  NAVAL RESERVE (MOBILISATION) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  EARL SPENCER: I asked the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Hopetoun) some questions the other day with regard to this Bill. I thought at the time that there did not appear to be much necessity for the Bill, but since then I have had an opportunity of consulting various persons, and I find that the fourteenth clause of the previous Act does not apply in the manner described by me, but merely gives the Admiralty power to relieve men altogether from the Reserve. Therefore I quite concur in the importance of making easier the terms under which Reservists are called out, and I am perfectly satisfied as to the necessity for this Bill.
  Bill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
  House adjourned at ten minutes past Five of the clock, till To-morrow, half-past ten of the clock.